AudioCircle
Industry Circles => NuPrime Audio => Topic started by: rustydoglim on 7 Nov 2014, 03:44 am
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I removed John's posting about ST-10 as I need to confirm the spec and photo next week.
ST-10 (MSRP $1595) is a new designed base on V4 R&D project (ie version 4 of our amp technology) and it is good enough to be classified as Reference LE (meaning you can compare it with other brand's reference amp :thumb:) and it is just a step below our Reference class amp.
What's the difference between the amp in IDA-16, Reference 20, and other NuForce home series like STA-100 ?
It will be too much technical details (and also exposing confidential design information) to actually compare the designs here. An analogy I can use is like car engine and the platform. All our amps are based on switching amplifier principles using naturally occurring self oscillation as the modulation frequency (instead of a clock based sawtooth waveform that most other class-D designs used). No digital conversion or manipulation. The topology is analog based. But a topology can be designed and implemented in many different ways, depending on the configuration, power and cost requirement. That's why we have several designs with different sound quality and price.
This topic is locked until I confirm the spec and photo in a few days.
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NuPrime ST-10 Reference LE Class Amplifier
The “LE” of Reference LE designates near-reference-class performance. The fourth generation (V4 amplifier module) of this patented amplifier design outperforms its predecessor in several aspects:
• It lowers the noise floor by an astounding 20dB and elevates the output stage to 85% efficiency.
• Shortened circuit pathways result in a 20% improvement in through-put.
• Improved reliability in no-load condition and short circuit protection.
• Increased output current drive capability for low impedance speakers.
• Increased switching frequency to 700 KHz and an improved musical sampling rate.
• Improved S/N ratio and dynamic range.
• New linear power supply with a high-efficiency toroidal transformer. Reduced high-frequency noise and strengthened low-frequency performance.
• Signal path avoids cross-linking capacitors, thus achieving a frequency response at DC level for pure musical enjoyment.
• Enhanced even-order harmonic (H2) circuitry resembling the most attractive features of tubed-amp sound without its drawbacks and limitations.
Specifications:
• Power: 2 X 200W at 8 Ohms
• Input Impedance: 47k Ohms
• Gain: 21 dB
• Signal to Noise Ratio: 100dB at 100W
• Frequency Response: 10Hz to 50kHz
• Worldwide AC voltage: (90VAC~130VAC / 210VAC~ 250VAC) with Voltage Select Switch
• AC Fuse: Slow-blow, 7A, 250VAC
• Dimension: 59 mm H x 215.4 mm W x 394 mm D
• Color: Black or Silver
ST-10 (MSRP $1595) is shipping Dec 2. We are accepting orders now.
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FAQ:
1. How do you rank your amps ?
In the following order: Ref 20, Ref 18, Ref 9V3SE, ST-10
So if you have the NuForce STA-100 (from the home series) or ST8.5V3, it is definitely worth upgrading to ST-10.
2. Which is better: ST-10 + DAC-10H or IDA-16 ?
ST-10 + DAC-10H (or DAC-10 without headphone amp) is definitely better sounding than IDA-16.
If you have a pair of high-end bookshelf or high efficiency speaker, you should go for ST-10 and DAC-10 combo.
3. Isn't V4 supposed to sound better than V3SE ?
As explained in the earlier post, we have several amplifier designs. V4 is yet another design that has potential to sound better than V3SE, but we are not there yet.
4. Will you have V5 ?
Yes, V5 is yet another design for late next year. Unlike many other brands who use standard modules, we are constantly doing R&D on various amp designs.
5. With so many designs and models, I am confused. How do I choose?
You are best not to pay too much attention to the version numbers but focus on the classification and what you really need. Even our entry level product is exceptionally good, so whatever you ultimately choose to buy, you are unlikely to be disappointed. If you want to upgrade, contact us or your dealer.
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Why would the DAC-10 (or 10H) plus the ST-10 be better sounding than the IDA-16, inasmuch as the latter has the same dac and amp sections as these separates?
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Because ST-10 is a different class of amp than the one in IDA-16.
DAC-10H is almost the same, but not the same as IDA-16 in that we use linear power supply, better preamp circuit, headphone amp, and very unique dual gain settings that allow RCA to have 2V or 4V, XLR with 4V or 8V, and headphone output RCA and XLR each having 3 separate gain output level.
It is all relative. So far every customers of IDA-16 have been surprised by how good it sounded. We have different level of performance and pricing for different requirement.
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Hi there
Does ST10 sound a lot less better than R9 and is totally in different?
Thanks!
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I would say the ST-10 is close to the Ref 9V3SE in overall resolution, dynamic and sound stage. It sounded a bit different, you can say it has more "body". So it is a matter of taste. But in terms of power, ST-10 still has less power than 9V3SE.
You can think of our current new generation of amps as V4, V5 and V6 all happening in parallel. This is due to two factors: brilliant engineer and bigger engineering team. So our team is able to expand from the original patent in many ways.
The MCA-K28 for example, the output can be bridged and yet achieving reference grade sound quality (typically multi-channel amps that can be bridged are not high-end).
Jason
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Can we get more info about MCA-K28? Power, how many channels?
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:|
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Thank you for sharing!
How would you describe it's sound character?
Doesn't it sound better than NuForce's R9 or R8 power amp ?
Thanks!
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...
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Have you tried running the ST-10 with IDA-16 as a DAC-preamp to see if the superior sound characteristics of the ST-10 are still fully evident with that combo ?
Bruce
IMO it's sound character is similar to that of the IDA-16 with noticeable improvements in sound-stage width/depth/separation/detail as well as startling bass prowess (it exerts amazing control over the speakers - you'll definitely find out how well your speakers can produce bass) - it has a much more refined quality to it. It also possess' the same crystal clear transparency of the IDA but with more body and richness to the sound. If you feed it a top notch PC and cables and pair it with a warmer sounding SS/tube pre it is simply magical (if you prefer a more neutral presentation than definitely pair it with the DAC-10H - stellar combo). I really can't think of anything on the market that can really compete with it at its price especially when you consider its power/features (XLR/12v trigger)/form factor in addition to the sound - it's an absolute bargain.
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I have had the pleasure of hearing an ST-10 in my system for almost 2 weeks.
Mark from Well Pleased audio was kind enough to send me one to evaluate.
After the initial love of a new toy in my system wears off, I always expect to start hearing the "warts".
Well I am still waiting, and I do not think there are any to be seen or heard.
The understated appearance of this quality made, compact and quite heavy for its size component belies its ability to take control of a speaker and supply it with a transparent, refined, and powerful signal, seemingly unfettered by the things one expects at this price point.
The design of the ST-10 seems to have accomplished the overwhelming task of delivering a very musical, transparent and powerful high end amplifier for the cost of entry level gear.
My system consists of a Bryston BCD1 to my Primaluna Dialogue Premium tubed preamp to the ST-10 to a pair of Triode Wire labs American speaker cable, feeding my GTA2.5 planar hybrid speakers.
No matter what kind of music I threw at it, the amp unfailingly supplied the speakers with an wide open, deep, pristine soundstage with solidly portrayed images. Dynamic contrasts are excellent, whether listening at live levels or quietly late at night, the dynamic swings and solid deep bass line stay intact. Quite impressive !!
I must be fair and tell you my GTA2.5's use 400 watt Hypex plate amps for the powered woofers and the ST-10 is only powering the full range planar and tweeter.
But I have had other amps in my system under the same conditions and none of them have ever portrayed music in such a convincing manner.
All this for $1600...consider me sold !!
Greg
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Jason
Thank you for your rankings of the Nuforce/Nuprime products and other FAQ answers - it is very helpful.
Word of mouth (particularly reports of several audiophile listening in shoot outs) and between the lines in reviews are indeed necessary. Sometimes you come across a fact that is telling: For example, deep in the TAS blogs, when asked what he used in his home, Robert Harley stated a good while back that he uses Nuforce Ref 9 (forget the version) in his own personal home theater. This statement is impactful as he has access, I would to suspect, almost any equipment in the world and has heard many an amplifier over his career.
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We dare to allow any customer to do in-home comparison with any other brand. Just ask the other brand if you can compare and return the one you don't like. :thumb:
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What is the power output of the ST-10 into 4 ohms?
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What is the power output of the ST-10 into 4 ohms?
It is designed to be the same for both 8 and 4 ohms.
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John is correct, the power max out at 200W per channel and that's massive. Typical listening power is about 10W.
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How will it handle ML CLSIIz?
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How will it handle ML CLSIIz?
While I haven't heard it with those speakers, as long as you are not attempting "concert hall" crescendos in a large room, you should be MORE than good.
I did use the IDA-16 (200wpc) with some larger speakers (VMPS RM40s) full range, and it had PLENTY of headroom.
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For those who have the ST-10:
When you connect speakers to it, and teh ST-10 is on, but you are not playing music,
is there a hiss from the speakers?
(Or are they completely quiet?)
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For those who have the ST-10:
When you connect speakers to it, and teh ST-10 is on, but you are not playing music,
is there a hiss from the speakers?
(Or are they completely quiet?)
Quoted specs would show a very quiet amp
Signal to Noise Ratio: 110dB at 1W, 10W, 100W
So if noise is present it would likely be from the input side.
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For those who have the ST-10:
When you connect speakers to it, and teh ST-10 is on, but you are not playing music,
is there a hiss from the speakers?
(Or are they completely quiet?)
Right now my ST-10 is hooked up directly to an Dragonfly Dac plugged into a laptop. Just hit stop on my music playing and walked over to the speakers. Didn't hear any noise until i pressed my ear up to the speaker grill and even then it was a very feint humming. It pretty quite.
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A high gain amp can cause this hiss noise. My st100 had that problem. When i switched to parasoound halo which has adjustable gain control and it help attenuating the hiss.
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disconect USB device, if you have it. If it is that, than you have ground problem with hum, I had it on IDA-16 with my NUC. Solve it with iFi iUsb power.
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I have an ST-10 on loan and I'm really enjoying it.
Was just wondering, is it normal for this amp to get quite hot to the touch?
I know that many amps are designed to run this way, but I thought that because of the 85% efficiency of the design it wouldn't get too hot.
Anyway, this doesn't bother me, still 99% sure I'll be keeping it.
Just wondering if this is normal operating behaviour.
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When I run my IDA-16 at moderate volume it just barely gets warm. How loud do you play your music, how efficient are your speakers ?
I have an ST-10 on loan and I'm really enjoying it.
Was just wondering, is it normal for this amp to get quite hot to the touch?
I know that many amps are designed to run this way, but I thought that because of the 85% efficiency of the design it wouldn't get too hot.
Anyway, this doesn't bother me, still 99% sure I'll be keeping it.
Just wondering if this is normal operating behaviour.
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When I run my IDA-16 at moderate volume it just barely gets warm. How loud do you play your music, how efficient are your speakers ?
Speakers are 86dB. (Q Concept 20, standmounted)
I don't listen at high volume.
Outside temp approx. 25 deg. Centigrade.
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I have an ST-10 on loan and I'm really enjoying it.
Was just wondering, is it normal for this amp to get quite hot to the touch?
I know that many amps are designed to run this way, but I thought that because of the 85% efficiency of the design it wouldn't get too hot.
Anyway, this doesn't bother me, still 99% sure I'll be keeping it.
Just wondering if this is normal operating behaviour.
Hi, Nidri17,
My amp is a different unit, but this may help. I've had my IDA-8 for about 6 weeks now. When it first arrived, I was shocked at how hot it ran - especially toward the back half. I emailed both Jason and John worried that there was something wrong with my amp. It was so hot I wondered if I could fry an egg on it. They assured me this was normal and that the best way to disperse heat was this way. Relying on air and grills to cool amps is less efficient. The air temp at that time was right around 30 to 32 degrees Celsius.
Now air temps are in the low to mid-20s and the amp doesn't feel as hot. I'm actually looking forward to the winter temps here (13 to 18), so my amp can warm up my living room a degree or two.
Man, I wish I had a buddy who would lend me an ST-10 for a week or two. I'm green with envy! :green:
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-> http://www.hifitest.de/test/da-wandler/nuprime_dac-10h-nuprime_st-10_11088
NuPrime ST-10 inside
(http://www.hifitest.de/images/testbilder/big/_bild_1436871647.jpg)
With RFI/EMI filter (metal box).
By the way, green circles for what?
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More than 300 watts creates the final stage before the THD on the 0.7 % threshold at 4 Ohms. And almost 225 watts at 8 Ohms with the 0.7 % THD too.
(http://www.hifitest.de/images/testbilder/big/_bild_1436871696.jpg)
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I have the Nuforce Ref- 9 V2 monoblocks combined with a Nuforce P8 preamp. I really like this combo in many ways. Good recording sounds amazing and their ability to drive my Mark&Daniel Maxiumus Monitors are good. But I think one of the biggest drawbacks with the Nuforce-technology is that less than perfect material sound flat, lean and a bit boring. I don't know if that is a something that all better amplifiers struggle with?
Perhaps a more forgiving amplifier or preamplifier would sweeten the sound? And I suppose the Nuprime ST-10 also have a tendency to sound slightly flat and lean when the material is less than perfect, for instance Spotify premium which I listen a lot to? I'm speculating of course but I assume that Nuprime sound is very similar with the Nuforce Ref. 9- sound. I'm thinking about replacing everything with the DAC10/ST10 but perhaps that is the wrong way as the result will be very similar. Perhaps a better way is to keep the Ref. 9's and replace the preamp with a preamplifier with tubes?
My dilemma is that I have to have an amplifier that have the ability to drive the Mark&Daniels and in that regard I think Nuforce/nuprime does a great job.
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The NuPrime amps are all different from previous NuForce amps in designed.
Having said that, I would say that we still think the sound signature of the 9V2 is one of the best. I think you should pair the 9V2 with NuPrime DAC-9 instead (just released). 9V2 and DAC-10 might be too clean. DAC-9 uses the new AKM AK4490 DAC chip which has warmer sound than ESS9018. That should fix your "Spotify" streaming sound problem.
I think changing 9V2 to ST-10 is only a "side-way move"
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Pewe
Just to confirm that the tubed pre-amp option can work really well, I am using an Ayon Preamp with Ref 20 and my friend a Dude preamp with Ref9V2 and we are both highly satisfied with warmth, liquidity, and no thinness.
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Thank you for very good answers, appreciate the honesty about the DAC10 might be wrong. I'm going to try the DAC9, sounds like a good option. :)
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Would it be considered an upgrade, moving from a nuprime st 10 to a nuforce ref 9 v3?
I use a parasound p6 preamp, using xlr
I use a variety of speakers kef ls 50,b&w cm9, pioneer sa7
A bit more of headroom would be nice but I really like the tones of the st 10
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Would it be considered an upgrade, moving from a nuprime st 10 to a nuforce ref 9 v3?
I use a parasound p6 preamp, using xlr
I use a variety of speakers kef ls 50,b&w cm9, pioneer sa7
A bit more of headroom would be nice but I really like the tones of the st 10
Sonically the ST-10 is an improvement over the NuFORCE. It is improved in many ways, including a higher carrier frequency, and a more stable circuitry.
I might suggest with your goal of headroom, you consider going with a pair ST10m (monoblocs)
You should be able to negotiate with your dealer to take your current ST10 in on trade and get the pair.
Are you in the US or Canada?
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Thanks for the informative reply, Unfortunately I am based in Bahrain and cannot trade in to upgrade
The St10 M, makes perfect sense
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Thanks for the informative reply, Unfortunately I am based in Bahrain and cannot trade in to upgrade
The St10 M, makes perfect sense
Contact sales@nuprimeaudio.com directly.
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I have two surplus St-10 amp boards that I want to put to some use. Was thinking to make two monoblocks from them. Would be helpful to know what Voltage the amp boards take from the psu... (Also other relevant specs, like the A rating of the original psu if possible...) Does anybody have a clue about this?
Thank you!