AudioCircle
Industry Circles => GR Research => Topic started by: Hobbsmeerkat on 10 Jul 2020, 05:41 pm
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Looking over a few forums, it appears that the shallow and deep-cups for the old BG Neo are just glued on with silicon adhesive.
Given that information, I had a couple ideas for how to attach custom 3d printed options..
The simplest idea would be to desing a cup similar to the Standard BG neo design, and use a similar method of attachment via silicon adhesive.
Alternatively, you could have the cup attached to the driver via the mounting holes of the Neo3, with a gasket between them for a proper seal.
Luckily this option would allow for attachment of the cup, without having to make it a more permanent addition, and make alignment much easier/consistent.
And by the same token, a front mounting bracket can be formed, with future options for flushmounts, wave-guides, or possibly even horns?
With a modular system like this you could even do some weird/experimental stuff, like porting the rear of the neo3 directly out the back of the cabinet. Even upgrades might be possible, if a "better" rear cup design is found...
I definitely want to sketch out some of these ideas, so any information on the rough dimensions of the GR/BG Neo3 & it's back cup so i can be a little more accurate with my sketches.
And feel free to offer any ideas as well! :thumb:
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Okay, took a little time to sketch out some ideas!
The basic idea is that the back cup will fit over that entire back of the Neo3, mounting into the back, with a gasket between them. Then, being held by screws into the front baffle, a wave guide, or a flush mount face plate.
And for good fun, I added in a transmission line for the tweeter. :P
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211690&size=large)
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For a little fun, I designed a larger horn/waveguide. :P
Any other ideas?
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211764&image=large)
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Creative.
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Thanks, Danny!
I've been thinking about getting my hands on a Neo3 from you for more accurate measurements & testing. Then see if I can figure out how to use 3D modeling software again, like Blender to design basic the concepts, then see if I can find someone/somewhere local that can print some prototypes for further testing.. :thumb:
Makes me wish I had a 3D printer.. lol
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PE now has BG NEO3's with the deep back cup. They are only on the NEO3W driver, not the NEO3-PDR.
Might be worth getting one BG NEO3W to model the deep back cup to make versions for the new ones, as you cannot purchase just the deep back cup. Might be others on here that do have access to 3D printers that could help. Seems there are folks looking for the Nx speaker designs that would be interested.
When I looked at my pair, the deep cup had felt in it for absorption of the back wave.
Just an idea.
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I've found a few Neo3 PDR w/deep cups in a few different places online. And they all seem to be going for the $90 range, so ill probably get one of them. That said, I'm not sure how much variance there is between the BG & GR, which is why i probably need to get one of each, for more "apples to apples" testing.
I know there's definitely a fair bit of interest in the NX designs along with some of the older models, like the N-3, that also have a good bit of interest now that the Carnegie CST-1s are gone, so having a "drop-in" replacement/mod for the GR Neo3 would be a nice alternative..
Much like the smaller wave guide, which could eliminate the need for CNC front baffles, or possibly cheaper alternatives.
Ill definitely do some looking/asking around the forums to see if anyone is interested in working on these ideas with me. :thumb:
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How about Neo3 and Neo10 in coaxial mode like in B&G Z91 speakers?
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50112934283_c45b7ba398_w.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jmiTsk)B&Gz92a (https://flic.kr/p/2jmiTsk) by drjlo2 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/60017347@N03/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50112934288_1ec1c754bd_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jmiTsq)B&GZ92 (https://flic.kr/p/2jmiTsq) by drjlo2 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/60017347@N03/), on Flickr
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That's certainly an interesting idea!
Esp once Danny finds a replacement for the Neo10 that he's happy with, then it might be something we can look into a a little more deeply.
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Ordered myself a Neo 3 (Non PDR) with a deep cup & a flush mount face plate. As well as a digital caliper so I can get more accurate measurements than the white papers/spec sheet give which is an early model with a shallow cup.
If i recall correctly, Danny's Neo 3 is a custom non-PDR model, but after you add the yarn to the outer holes, it effectively becomes a "PDR" equivalent without risking patents, cuz its essentially treated as a "mod" by the end user.
I also read that the actual PDR models have only 3 magnets instead of the usual 5 in the GR & standard BG models.
The GR Neo uses also uses a Kapton membrane instead of the Kaladex found in the BG models & only has felt only on the front side.
I'm curious how the yarn mod will affect a standard BG Neo 3.
I do need to source a front baffle or two. One for the flush mount, and the other with a standard 1.5" deep NX Waveguide, I should be able to contact Jay or Killian to see if he can cut a custom test baffle that can be flipped to test both mounting styles, and if that's the case, ill try to see if I can also order the G3 Neo 3.
I don't know if the side/rear baffles are as important for this type of testing tho, so feel free comment if you know more about it than i do.
I also want to eventually run some tests on the mod I've seen that puts semicircular molds between the rows of openings, to see if that's a viable option for some future faceplate/waveguide mods.
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Hello,
Can you share where you found the Neo3 PDR w/deep back cups? Are these the same deep back cups Danny used in the N3S?
Best,
Steven
I've found a few Neo3 PDR w/deep cups in a few different places online. And they all seem to be going for the $90 range, so ill probably get one of them. That said, I'm not sure how much variance there is between the BG & GR, which is why i probably need to get one of each, for more "apples to apples" testing.
I know there's definitely a fair bit of interest in the NX designs along with some of the older models, like the N-3, that also have a good bit of interest now that the Carnegie CST-1s are gone, so having a "drop-in" replacement/mod for the GR Neo3 would be a nice alternative..
Much like the smaller wave guide, which could eliminate the need for CNC front baffles, or possibly cheaper alternatives.
Ill definitely do some looking/asking around the forums to see if anyone is interested in working on these ideas with me. :thumb:
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Hello,
Can you share where you found the Neo3 PDR w/deep back cups? Are these the same deep back cups Danny used in the N3S?
Best,
Steven
Sadly, its NOT the PDR model, just the standard Neo3 that's also available on Parts Express.
There are some available on eBay for $115 ish, but i don't know how trustworthy it is since it's coming from Malaysia.
Nevermind, seems that they are the shallow cup model.
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I tried drawing these in blender, but i it ended up being more complicated than i wanted, so SketchUp it is! I'm pretty happy with how they've turned out so far.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=212014)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=212015)
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Just got my BG Neo3 (Non-PDR) with deep cup in today for measurements, along with a pair of cheap digital calipers for getting things as accurate as possible. As well as the plastic flush mount for good measure & future testing. :thumb:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=212164&image=large)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=212165&image=large)
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Got a little sidetracked while working on the cup designs
Mostly trying to get a feel for how SketchUp works, but I designed an MTM version of the NX-Studio with a side facing wave guide.
I don't know if this is feasible aside from being a bit complicated. but it was a fun side project for brainstorming.
Plus you can just rotate the front waveguide, remove the lower portion, & boom, its a center channel! :P
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=212256&size=huge)
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Cool concept... Would you be able to get a side firing servo sub in each of the lower sections? Looks like you'd have more than the 1.5 cf sealed volume space, albeit rectangular over square in shape, if that matters..
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Cool concept... Would you be able to get a side firing servo sub in each of the lower sections? Looks like you'd have more than the 1.5 cf sealed volume space, albeit rectangular over square in shape, if that matters..
Thanks!
I checked the volume, looking into that idea, seems to be closer to 1.3 cubic ft. And it would require a little extra bracing and a double layer on the outer wall.. but still should be possible! It will require the Plate amp to be outside the cabinet tho, since the inside wall would be a pretty ugly mounting position...
Ill see if I can design a version with a side mount servo sub tonight after work. Might require a slightly wider front baffle or a modified base thats a little wider, over all.
Ill also see if i can design a proper center-channel setup as well.
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I'm not particularly happy with how it looks, and it's still a bit under-sized at 1.35 Cubic Ft, and the woofer will stick out to the side a bit, unless you increase the baffle to 10" wide, and recess the sub into it.
Then in order to prevent the sub from affecting the woofers, I sealed it off in its own section. I also increased the overall height to 6" from the center of the upper woofer hole. So the tower is currently 50" tall not including the plinth/base. same goes for the brace between the main sections.
If you chop off the sub portion you have a pair of reversible 24 inch tall MTM speakers, which would be a better approach on top of OB subs IMO.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=212286&size=large)
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Why not make it a trapezoid shape? Wide in the back and narrow in the front. That will give you more airspace plus allow you to mount the sub amp on the back of the speaker where it's wider.
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Why not make it a trapezoid shape? Wide in the back and narrow in the front. That will give you more airspace plus allow you to mount the sub amp on the back of the speaker where it's wider.
I've actually considered that idea as well...
IIRC, the NX line uses a 10° slope outwards. So maybe a trapezoidal design may work better for the application of a built-in sealed Sub...
(If we were still using 8" subs i could probably squeeze 2 or 3 in.. :P
I'll work that into my next design. It should hopefully allow for a full 1.5 cubic Ft space as well as a proper mount of the amp plate.
I kinda also want to work on some of those rough sketches i did for SonicJoy into 3D models. But maybe for another thread.. :P
This thread is already sidetracked enough as it is... :lol:
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Hey Hobbs I thought this thread was about tweeter cups? Boy you are easily distracted! :lol: You are going to give Danny some competition in speaker design. :popcorn:
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Hey Hobbs I thought this thread was about tweeter cups? Boy you are easily distracted! :lol: You are going to give Danny some competition in speaker design. :popcorn:
LMAO :rotflmao:
That's what i get for having life-long ADD! :P
But yes, i will be working on that tonight after work, and most of tomorrow.
I should probably start a new thread for the towers tho... :P
Hey now! I'm not here to compete with Danny! I'm just taking the concepts he's already shown & current design aesthetics & using them in different ways, and my creative imagination just likes seeing how far I can run with those ideas.. and now that I've got a new tool to explore those ideas, its just getting me sidetracked.. :lol:
That said...
I think i want to work on a slightly simpler design that will be easier to print.
A base ring that fits around the Neo3, with the cup portion attaching on top of that, with glue/screws. With a theoretical "production" model that is injection molded, being used as a single unit.
I am curious tho, because looking at this picture i found of the inside of the deeps cups, it looks like the curved portion is double walled? I know there's felt lining it, but maybe im wrong?
I dunno if I want to take mine apart to find out...
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/8TQ79eTfXf8DTIZCrfWKFfYDh5YsGjEBPLgFy_ePD-vTYx4LtDERGlseBLA44hyYNOKB6U6plYCDb_dOYg)
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I have to say, I really like the design explorations. It's something I enjoy doing and found Sketchup to be a good tool to convey ideas. Group think can be a powerful tool.
Having done similar explorations I may be able to shed some light on the process to bring the back cup to fruition in this realm.
To have something like the back cup mass produced via 3D printing would primarily take two things. The design needs to be in the form of an .STL file for a 3D printer and the printer would have to be capable of doing production parts with both resolution and speed. When I checked into it with a different but similar shape, estimates were guessed at $150-$250 per piece. One would have to factor what the market would be for such a part.
I also looked into injection molding for same part. To make the mold would likely be in the $5-7K with per unit production perhaps $15-25 in lots of, say, 500.
To either of those numbers, a business needs a reasonable profit margin to make it make financial sense.
Either way poses a real puzzle for a small business. Is it salable at $200 per unit if 3D printed? How long and how many would it take to recover up-front costs if you went the injection molding route? One wonders if the demand is there and would sustain for a few years to make that make sense. The reality is it's a tiny segment of a niche market that has more than a few competitors. That would likely lead to some significant marketing efforts, which also cost money. It's a conundrum I have yet to solve.
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Yeah! it's definitely been a fun experience, even when i was just drawing ideas on my iPad, but having a 3D model to work with really takes it up a notch.. luckily Sketchup does export STL and OBJ files.
Yeah, mass production probably isn't going to be ideal unless there's a huge demand for it, esp if it requires such a huge unit cost, or a large quantity.
Even hobby-level printing at home costs $200-300 to get started and can take a couple hours for each unit, and spools of ABS are fairly cheep and would last a while. But you'd still be looking at $30-40 per pair once you factor in the time it takes to produce a single pair, and recoup costs of materials/maintenance/design etc and maintain stock of the filament.
And yeah, considering this is a super niche segment of an already niche market, its not going to be something that's practial unless there's just a large consistent demand for it.
But considering these can be used on any BG/GR Neo3 PDR or not, does allow a little more opportunity, even then it's not something I would consider realistically "sustainable"
But its still fun to brainstorm these ideas to see what works & what doesn't.
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Okay! I spent the entire evening modeling a "near perfect" replica of the Neo3 rear plate. As well as the base that the rear cup will mount to. A gasket will need to sit between the cup and the back of the Neo3, but I'll figure out those details tomorrow.
Feels good to be back on track! :P
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=212348&size=large)
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LOL! Being easily distracted is a sign of a fertile mind.
It may be possible for small batches to have them CNC milled from solid stock plastic. Might be worth investigating. They could be made to order that way.
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LOL! Being easily distracted is a sign of a fertile mind.
It may be possible for small batches to have them CNC milled from solid stock plastic. Might be worth investigating. They could be made to order that way.
I guess that explains a lot! :P
My only issue with the CNC route is that in order to get a proper seal with a gasket, the base of the cup has to have an inside base that presses against the face of the Neo3. And in order to get the needed shape, a CNC wouldn't allow for such design, not to mention wasting a ton of plastic in scraps.
I might try to come up with a simple version that is just a cup that could be glued on directly with a silicon adhesive, just like the actual cup. Making it a more "permanent" solution.
It should also be much easier to produce.
I also saw mention on another forum, that the cups tend to have a "ring" to them, so maybe using a product like Dynamat or just some small spare chunks of NoRez in the cup will help?
that said, Im done with the lower spacer that fits onto the frame, and about 70% done with the cup portion itself. So expect pics shortly! :thumb:
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As for the ringing? just make the walls thicker and out of well damped plastic. Maybe UHMW. Very dense. It would require some experimenting as usual.
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Okay i think i have the core of the mod complete!
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=212374&size=large)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=212375&size=large)
A gasket material would need to be custom cut to fit between the center and right components, along with some felt or insulation material would need to be inserted.
I imagine those should be pretty easy to source from local hardware store or online.
Luckily i have a buddy in Texas that said he can run a test print for me!
I can have my buddy either ship the parts to me so i can cut a gasket & treat the cup, or have it shipped directly to Danny for observations/ testing, if that's something he's up for?
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Just got confirmation that the prototypes are printed and fit well together! The cup model needed a slight tweek since the first prototype was too thin at the top and didn't make a good seal, so i made some small adjustments and its solid now.
I should be getting some rough measurements & pictures tonight once my friend gets home from work. :thumb:
I did make some small changes too, making the mounting holes more oblong to allow for some screw placement variation, and adding a little extra lip to the terminal side of the cup to allow for better seal.
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Okay! Got some pictures of the test prints~
First is the demo print based on the measurements I took of my Neo3.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=212460&size=large)
Next are the spacer and cup that also turned out quite nice!
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=212461&size=large)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=212462&size=large)
lastly here's the face plate & spacer fitted together, and the cup will fit on top with a gasket in between.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=212463&size=large)
The big test going forward will be to get it assembled & see how they measure! :thumb:
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This is really impressive Hobbs! Would be very cool to get availability back for the models that use this particular tweeter.
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This is really impressive Hobbs! Would be very cool to get availability back for the models that use this particular tweeter.
Thanks! Its definitely been a fun brainstorming session!
Me too! :P I'd love to see a return of the N3 &smaller N1X, or even update versions using the M165 or 165NQ drivers.
Once I can verify that these work & measure well, I'll be sure to post the STL files so anyone who wants them can print them, or have someone they know print them.
I might also work on a couple modifications to the file that should allow for injection molding, and a potentially better seal, if that's a route Danny wants to go in the future.
I'll make some updates to the models tonight, and have those printed as well :thumb:
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What? No 3D printed yarn for the outer rows of the tweeter? :lol:
yeah wow.. nice job
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What? No 3D printed yarn for the outer rows of the tweeter? :lol:
yeah wow.. nice job
Hey now, I don't want wanna infringe on any patents! :wink:
Thanks!
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I might also work on a couple modifications to the file that should allow for injection molding, and a potentially better seal, if that's a route Danny wants to go in the future.
I'll make some updates to the models tonight, and have those printed as well :thumb:
This version would require 2 gaskets, or having the spacer/cup glued together, with the gasket between the neo3 and spacers
Ill also include a couple tabs/slots to maintain alignment while being glued.
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Okay, so i had to pass on the tabs for the alignment, I can't have them printed, cuz in order to have them added would make them impossible to print.
At least you can use the mounting holes to keep them clamped. :P
I also want to test the dividers shown in this thread, Hense the small half circle strips:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=151771.msg1623024#msg1623024
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=166001&size=large)
But here's the changes made to the middle spacer, moving the cup opening to the spacer.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=212477&size=large)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=212478&size=large)
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I'd love to test those little bars.
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I'd love to test those little bars.
Sure! l can have my buddy mail you the bars, and the back cup prototypes for testing :thumb:
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This is fun to watch, I'm looking forward to seeing Danny's testing results on all of this. Nice work Hobbs.
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This is fun to watch, I'm looking forward to seeing Danny's testing results on all of this. Nice work Hobbs.
Thanks! Its been a fun project. I've been working on a sealed servo sub base for the NX Studio as well as an MTM/center version of the Studios. but that'll be a different thread going forward :P
Just got confirmation that everything printed well and will be mailed out this weekend. :thumb:
Danny will get the 2nd model of the cup & spacer along with 5 of the round over bars for the front face of the Neo3.
And I'll be getting the first spacer/cup and the remaining 5 rods.
Im excited to do some of my own testing with these soon! And see how they compare with Danny's results of his cutom neo 3
Ill probably strip the stock cup off. Cant be any harder than delidding Intel i5 & i7 desktop CPUs when that was common back in 2013-2018 :P
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I got the tracking number for Danny's package,
Says It should arrive Saturday today :thumb:
Checked the tracking again and its already out for delivery!
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I got the tracking number for Danny's package,
Says It should arrive Saturday today :thumb:
Checked the tracking again and its already out for delivery!
Got it.
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Got it.
Sweet! Mine will be here Tomorrow :thumb:
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Looks like my prototype has been delayed.
Hopefully it'll be here Monday.
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Okay, I got my 3D printed cups & bars in the mail today! I also went ahead a ripped off the original back cup, & I'm happy to say they fit really nicely, a little tight, but within tolerances.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=213074&size=large)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=213075&size=large)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=213076&size=large)
Rear face with spacer and hand cut rubber gasket.
A silicon sealant should work well too:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=213080)
The curved walls in the stock cup are doubled from the base to the first inch. The felt stuffing is glued in and incredibly soft. Not far off from the feeling of cotton balls, and should make for a fair substitute within the custom cups. It is also glued into place, so i imagine any cotton balls used probably should be glued into place as well.
The printed cup is pretty resonant, so lining the inside with a dense product like butyl based liners, or no-rez on the outside surfaces is probably a good idea.
If/when I make any further adjustments/prototypes, I'll probably use thicker walls to reduce the structural resonance, but will probably still recommend such a lining, unless using a dense glue with the cotton that can achieve a similar effect.
Now for the face plate rods:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=213078&size=large)
They aren't quite as smooth as i hoped they'd be, but i imagine some coats of paint and a some gentle sanding should help smoothen them out. Tho I think I also want to make variants that are taller with a gentle curve until it gets close to the tip, I suspect it might be more beneficial to the response than just a simple half-circle option. With a waveguide or faceplate, only 3 rods are needed per Neo tweeter.
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I may be able to take some measurements on these tomorrow.
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I may be able to take some measurements on these tomorrow.
Awesome! Im excited to see your results! :thumb:
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Hooray for accidentally deleting my whole post by hitting the back button when i wasn't looking! :D
Okay! I cut myself a better gasket that fits the shape of the cup half of the mod, & got some nice results and was able to mount it to the flush mount i got with it. :thumb:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=213112&size=large)
I also have some thermal tape on hand and it made for a pretty effecient way to mount the rods to the face of the Neo3, tho I definitely want to try some taller options once i can also get my hands on my own 3D printer. (Probably in the $300-500ish range?)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=213111&size=large)
That said, i did come across a similar thread to the one i have linked here, but som users there did some testing and they seem to think their tests were done right next to the Neo 3, rather than 1 metre away as Danny's tests are done. And considering that a headphone company did something similar but by rounding the magnets instead to achieve a similar response. (I wanna say it was Hifiman??)
But I definitely want to test if taller "micro-wave guide" rods help in long distance response curves, or if by the time they get to 1M return to standard normal response curve.
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While working on my other speaker design thread, i had the idea for a separate mounted wave guide plate. I think this is a little too big currently as its design would interfere with the mounting of the M-165NQ drivers, but once i can get more accurate measurements of the actual waveguide i should be able to make something that allows it it to be mounted in vertical or horizontal orientations for uses in center speakers, so expect design changes going forward. :thumb:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=213318&size=large)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=213319&size=large)
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Ordered myself a 3D printer so I can do some more rapid prototyping and, hopefully soon, some testing. :thumb:
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I've updated the design of the waveguide to better match the design of the NX waveguide, & was able to shrink the face enough to make them fit within the space needed, esp for vertical MTM options, where the wave guide is taller, and still be rotated 90° for horizontal center channel use.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=213459&size=large)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=213460&size=large)
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I added the three bars on the front side a few days ago when measuring some NX Studio Monitor front baffles. It did not make an improvement in any way.
I will try it again with a different face plate and see what it does.
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I added the three bars on the front side a few days ago when measuring some NX Studio Monitor front baffles. It did not make an improvement in any way.
I will try it again with a different face plate and see what it does.
Well that's a bummer, the hear but im not entirely surprised either.
I read another thread by the same user in a different forum that they think than the difference is down to the driver being tested with the mic right up close to the driver, rather than at the standard 1M distance.
I will be printing some taller versions and doing my own testing next week once i get my 3D printer up and running to see if a more gradual slope helps, or if it also leads to the same results.
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Progress!
Got my 3D printer in! (Creality Ender 3) and after running some small test prints I went right into printing the waveguide, and it turned out pretty good! Some small issues near the inside edges and the outer screw mounts. But it fits the Neo 3 perfectly, as do the screwholes, and the deep cup also fits nicely!
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=213541&size=large)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=213542&size=large)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=213543&size=large)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=213544&size=large)
Probably gunna work on making a baffle out of cardboard and getting some measurements over the next couple days. :thumb:
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that's pretty damn cool dude :thumb:
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that's pretty damn cool dude :thumb:
Thanks, it's been a lot of fun! :thumb:
Okay make myself a quick & dirty test baffle for the waveguide.
Not perfect, about 9" wide before it slopes off to the sides. But itll do. The back is currently in the standard NX open baffle setup, & the little face rods have remained attached to the front.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=213571&size=large)
I did some really quick tests out on my back porch before the humidity drove me back inside. :P
Tests were done roughly 3 feet away using my tiny Dayton Audio measurement mic.
I'm using REW & running a tone sweep from 500Hz to 20,000Hz.
Using a 1/24 smoothing on the graph, but otherwise a surprisingly decent result..
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=213572&size=large)
I currently have some taller rods on the printer, as well as a modified back cup, and I'll share info/pics on those once its all completed.
I also plan to do several different tests to see what sorts of results i can get, including the back cups, and felt/cotton for back cup stuffing
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Well that was great timing! The prints are finished, so time to share the updates!
The new back cup design with two different versions of the faceplate rods:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=213573&size=large)
The new cup should be closer to the same internal dimensions as the stock cup, and also a little more rigid thanks to some thicker walls.
Close ups of the new rods (Center & Right) vs the original round over. (Left)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=213574&size=large)
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As "coool" as the cardboard baffle is, it's not a great or accurate platform for this testing. So I designed & printed a test baffle.
I also had to update the waveguide cuz it was apparently too deep. (About 1.65" instead of 1.5")
So here's the fruits of my "labour" :P
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=214196&size=large)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=214197&size=large)
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Okay, this thread has beed dead for a while.. but without a proper Neo3 for testing, along with the GRS thread, (where I killed them both...) It was hard to do some proper testing
Read more here:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=172523.0
But I finally got my hands on some more BG Neo3 for a decent price.
A pair of Neo3W & a pair of Neo3 PDRW, all with shallow cups.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=222277&size=large)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=222278&size=large)
Having these on hand again, I want to start doing more testing again, and working towards a usable replacement for the deep-back cup.
I've already finished the design for the spacer that will fit all Neo3 versions, including the GRS clone & Danny's Neo3.
But I also want to develop a simpler version that can be "glued" on like the original, BG model.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=212164&size=large)
I also want to do some more testing with the original flush-mount faceplate as well as with waveguides.
So be on the lookout for more in the coming week or two~ :thumb:
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Made some design updates to the deep cup. I made the base thicker to increase its rigidity and clamping pressure, i also tweaked the faceplate spacer to fit all Neo3 variants/clones. :thumb:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=222585&size=large)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=222587&size=large)
Here's how it looks placed together with a printed waveguide.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=222588&size=large)
Here's a failed/unfinished sample mounted to a BG faceplate. With stuffing in place.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=222589&size=large)
Tho if you look, you can see the issue using this mod when used with this type of faceplate... Notches would need to be cut/filed out in order to fit them. But I also want to design one thats more similar to the BG design that will just be applied using a silicon adhesive. It'll be much cheaper & faster to make/assemble, tbh.
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First pass at the glue-mounted mod looks pretty good!
Did my best to match the original geometry and managed to get pretty close.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=222683&size=large)
Tho I'm getting a curling issue at the base since I switched to a glass printing surface, so this unit isnt viable for future testing. Thankfully, I do have a few options to fix that in the next pass after I make a couple small changes.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=222684&size=large)
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Dang those look good.
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You over-achiever!! Lolol dude, awesome work! You’re awesome!! Inspiring people to get motivated and build!
You must have had a smile ear to ear when that printer arrived!!!
It’s amazing what you can do with some 3D printing. I have a laser, engraver CNC machine that is being setup. Engrave those cups with HOBBS! Lol
So, I know your coming up with ideas.. Can I ask what you plan to do with these?
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Dang those look good.
Thanks Danny! I'm pretty happy with the results, but I'll be happier once I get the curling problem sorted.
Once I do my own testing I'll be sure to send you a pair to test their viability yourself.
You over-achiever!! Lolol dude, awesome work! You’re awesome!! Inspiring people to get motivated and build!
You must have had a smile ear to ear when that printer arrived!!!
It’s amazing what you can do with some 3D printing. I have a laser, engraver CNC machine that is being setup. Engrave those cups with HOBBS! Lol
So, I know your coming up with ideas.. Can I ask what you plan to do with these?
I try! 8)
I did! Ive had it for a few months now! Its made prototyping these ideas really easy. Tho not necessarily "fast" since some of them can take up to 30 hours at times. lol
Its been a great purchase.
I could technically just put my initials into the cup or even the GR logo so it becomes part of the print. :P
The idea for these is to possibly make for a return of the old N-series product that used a BG Neo 3 PDRW with a deep back cup, that is no longer being produced. (A Neo3 W with deep cups are still be sold, but aren't very common) Or at the least a similar line based on Danny's GR Neo3, but with a deep cup that can be screwed or glued on. Next will be designing a flush mount faceplate to replace the BG ones. Theyll need to be sanded & painted to smooth out the layers lines, but should be pretty doable
Here's a N3 & N1 for reference:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=222896&size=large)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=216036&size=large)
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Quick update on the glued deep cup!
Turns out I just needed some Elmer glue sticks to prevent the curling issue! 8)
The base is now perfectly flat, so hopefully, I can do some testing in the near future!
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=222927&size=large)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=222929&size=large)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=222931&size=large)
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Completely understand. Sorry, showed up a bit late to the game, but appreciate you giving me the 1-2! Looks awesome!! Hey, I know that second Speaker and location!! 😎😎.
I have a really really good 2 part ABS plastic glue. (Have the gun as well) I’ve used to to make plate brackets and mounts for motorcycles that still are in use some years later. I’m not going to date myself. Again drill it, cut it sand it. It’s hard like ABS. And it’s very quick setting with a good work time.
Most people I’ve mentioned are like ya ya.. till they use it. It’s also black in color. Anyways, if you think it might help at some point drop me a message or call. Happy to help!
Good work man! Really! Keep pushing the level higher!!
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Yeah! I took that pic back of Danny's N-1X in October! It sounds great even just playing random music off YouTube.
The original BG models use a black silicone type adhesive, and I've got some clear silicone sealer i can use, but if this mod is viable, I'm sure there will be a few different options people can use to get good results. Be it epoxy, silicone, gorilla glue, super glue elmers school glue, etc. lol
Thats pretty interesting, I had no idea there was a specific ABS based glue, I'll definitely keep that in mind! I am using PLA tho, so I'm not sure how compatible they are together.. :scratch:
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I’ve used it to smooth out 3D printed items to give it that smoothness rather then using bondo or trying to build up paint and sand. I found when trying to sand down a printed item, due to how’s its construed if found spots would get thin.
No worries! Figure I would share some insight to see if it could help ya!
Awesome stuff man! Yea I just got back from said location.. Went down for a visit. Possibly moving towards his direction. And yes, they sounded great just playing random music.... Sadly the saying is very very true... If you want the phone to ring, play music! I don’t think in 3 days I heard one song play all the way through!! Ha!!
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A fair point! I'm sure getting a good finish would definitely time consuming & plastics don't sand all that well, unless they're a very regular, & consistent shape.
I appreciate it!
Oh hell yeah! I'm sure you had a great time! Danny was definitely on the phone or answering emails all day. And it ended up being launch day for the new site & I remember Ron calling a few times to help work out some of the kinks as it got rolling.
Took the shallow backs off of one of my Neo3 PDRW & Neo3W, should help verify the results that the mod works with PDR as well as re-verify the standard models with the yarn mod.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=222978&size=large)
Hopefully I can get some time to run the tests soon. :thumb:
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Following with anxious anticipation. :popcorn: I'd love to be able to build a pair of N3s.
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Following with anxious anticipation. :popcorn: I'd love to be able to build a pair of N3s.
Same here. I would like to build a pair of N3’s. I don’t have room for open baffle speakers.
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I got to audition the N1 and it was my first time hearing the Neo tweeters. They were more resolving than my X-series speakers and just super smooth. I wanted the N3 monitors but waited too long. I still wouldn’t mind a pair but already have too many speakers.
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Glad there's at least a few people that are interested in this project!
I've currently got it set up for testing using a faceplate that more closely resembles the BG, but is larger to accommodate my current waveguide test baffle. Plus it's also large enough to fit the screw mounted back cup.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=223003&size=xlarge)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=223004&size=large)
Hoping I can do the testing sometime tomorrow! :thumb:
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A bit later than i wanted, but I finally got the measurements.
This is a graph showing the Neo3 PDRW response curve for with and without the deep cup attached. (1/6th smoothing)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=223062&size=large)
Red: Deep Cup Green: Open Back
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=223063&size=large)
% THD graph
Aside from the peak at 1.7K Hz, the mod's response is actually quite smooth, esp from 2K-20K Hz.
Open-backed, I'm a bit surprised by the 2dB dip in the response around 2-4K Hz, but it gets some pretty good extension, easily down to 600Hz
I'm actually the most surprised by the rise in THD, esp above 5K Hz.. :scratch:
But I'll see how the standard Neo3 fares, as well as testing the GRS-3, since it will be a more direct comparison to the PDRW model I have currently
Next time I get to do some testing, it will be with the standard Neo3.
It will also be a little more involved, since I'll need to mod it with both the cup, but also some thick yarn, to be the closest approxiation to Danny's GR Neo 3.
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Nother update since I had some time alone this morning!
I started with the GRS 3" PDRW clone:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=223139&size=large)
Purple: Deep Cup Teal: Open Back
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=223140&size=large)
% THD
The cup mod does a great job, tho the hump in distortion below 2K range is rather pretty apparent, should make for a solid choice crossing over to a mid driver around 2.5K tho, esp for the price..
Next is the Standard Neo3 W without yarn.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=223142&size=large)
Magenta: Deep Cup Tan: Open Back
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=223143&size=large)
% THD
Here's the most promising results by far. The Neo3W with the cup mod gives a fantastic response in both frequency and THD..
Can easily crossover at 1.5K
(The rise in THD above 5K Hz is incredibly consistent across all drivers & tests I'm guessing its a software/hardware bug with how consistent it appears...)
All that's left is to use the yarn mod once I figure out where I left it... :scratch:
Cheers! :thumb:
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Try shooting THD with the tweeter not playing at all. Just to see what the room noise is doing to the measurement.
Also, how far away are you and what power level are you using?
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Try shooting THD with the tweeter not playing at all. Just to see what the room noise is doing to the measurement.
Also, how far away are you and what power level are you using?
Ill have to check that, thanks for the tip.
Im measuring from 1M away.
As for power level, I'm not sure how to measure it, since my Sprout only has a dial and I don't want to risk blowing them out.
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I took some measurements of the room with no sounds other than the laptop and fridge, but distortion was really clean across the board. I didnt save the graphs cuz i didnt see anything that looked relevant to the issue.
There was a steady 15dB rise in the noise floor SPL measurements starting at 3.6KHz, but it continued up to 18k Hz when the THD graphs see their rise from 5K to roughly 8.5K Hz.
Not really sure what to make of the issue.. esp since it wasn't an issue the the past... :scratch:
Only guess is i had something off in the settings or configuration that caused it, i might be missing.
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Hey Hobbs I have an old set of the BG neo 3w without the back cups, was curious if you ever posted the stl 3d print files for your cups?