Need help on Flapping Sound from ST QWT

audiocrazy · « **on:** 21 Jan 2014, 11:22 pm »

I'm hearing flapping sound from Left Channel when I play Santana-Migra from Salk Demo CD at about 70db + listening level. It happens in the beginning 1st 10 to 15 secs of the track when there is lots of low bass frequency. It does not happen for rest of the track or any other tracks. The ST where xovered at 60 Hz and when I increase xover to 100Hz the flapping reduces.
I tried gently pushing the woofer in the middle and i don't here any scratching noise. So it seems the woofer are OK.
Is this due to woofer reaching at max limit or I'm playing it too loud?

Any other suggestions

Is it time for me to upgrade to H2TL or SS8 as ST cannot handle the volumes?

Listening preference is 60% HT 40% music.
If yes what is your recommendation? Is SS8 an overkill for my room

Here is my setup
Speaker: Song Tower QWT, Center, Surround I's, Polk Lsi7 rears
Room: Dedicated HT room 16 x 13 x 8 (L x W x H) feet with acoustic treatment
Preamp: Marantz AV8801
Amp: Outlaw 770 (200 W @ 8 ohms), Crown XLS 1500 (not using it anymore)
Source: Opp BDP-103
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator S2 with dual 18" woofer @ 4000 watts

ckunstadt · « **Reply #1 on:** 21 Jan 2014, 11:36 pm »

total guess here. Your plinths aren't tight enough. I had the same issue with my HT3s. I bought some strips of blue-tack (2 packs) and made a square (with an x-shape in the middle) between the plinth and the speaker. so I had a cushion of soft material to work against when I tightened the bolts.
worked for me. Mine was a "grattle" kind of sound. flapping = kind of.

good luck.
Chris

jsalk · « **Reply #2 on:** 22 Jan 2014, 12:23 am »

It sounds to me like the spider on one of your woofers has come loose. This is a typical sound created when this happens. Try and isolate which woofer is creating the sound and contact us for a replacement.

- Jim

audiocrazy · « **Reply #3 on:** 22 Jan 2014, 05:29 am »

I experimented by playing one speaker at a time.
When I play Right channel I don't hear any flapping sound.
When I play Left channel I hear the flapping sound but its difficult to determine whether its Top or bottom woofer. I believe both are producing flapping sound. Is there a way to physically check woofer for any sign of damage or loosened spider?

But for sure Left channel has a problem

.
I hope i can get replacement woofers soon. I've not been without my ST working a single day

.

Jim I've sent my contact details via PM. Thanks for your promptness.
I'm really impressed by the level of service.

PETE6737 · « **Reply #4 on:** 22 Jan 2014, 06:37 am »

You can count on Jim to reslove your issue! He is the best.

screener · « **Reply #5 on:** 22 Jan 2014, 03:10 pm »

^ A+ Customer Service

avahifi · « **Reply #6 on:** 22 Jan 2014, 04:00 pm »

You might want to try playing the left speaker from the right amplifier channel and the right speaker from the left amplifier channel to see if the noise issue stays with the same speaker or moves to the other speaker, in which case it is an amplifier problem - - - or ahead of the amplifier, not a speaker problem.

Frank Van Alstine

audiocrazy · « **Reply #7 on:** 24 Jan 2014, 10:47 pm »

I tried various speaker and amplifier connection configurations over the past few days. I hear “flapping or slapping” sound from any speaker that I play Santana-Migra track.

Here is what I tried based on various excellent suggestions.

Swapped Right and Left speaker on amplifier
Played Left channel on right and right on left channel.
Played on center channel.
Disconnected Pre-amp from the chain and connected Oppo analog out to amplifier on various channels.
Played on a different amp.

I think there is nothing wrong with the speakers and I believe I'm just playing it too loud and woofers are reaching their max excursion limits.

Can somebody try this on their ST and let me know what they hear?

Any other ideas.

gregcss · « **Reply #8 on:** 24 Jan 2014, 11:43 pm »

Quote from: audiocrazy on 24 Jan 2014, 10:47 pm

Can somebody try this on their ST and let me know what they hear?

I tested and didn't hear anything unusual. Is the flapping really obvious? Maybe I don't know what to hear for.

Test setup 1:
STs crossed at 60hz with sub. Powered by Anthem MRX-300 (80wx2). Turned up to -30 which was loud for the small room. Source - Squeezebox touch with bolder digital mod and Paul Hynes SR3-05 power supply.

Test setup 2:
Same as 1 except STs set to full range no sub (ARC takes care of correcting where the speakers don't play).

Does it have anything to do with the items behind the speaker?

chargedmr2 · « **Reply #9 on:** 25 Jan 2014, 12:51 am »

I have had my standard STs flap and slap like you describe, and it was a bit scary sounding. This, however, occurred when they were run full range and we were watching a movie (Ghost Protocol, I believe). It was a scene with very low bass, and although we were NOT listening loudly at all, the STs could not handle this. Now that they are crossed to an LMS 5400, there are no problems. I think you may be right, and you are pushing them too hard, but 70db should not be a problem at all.

Can you measure with a decibel meter and identify how loud they are playing at a particular distance when the flapping starts?

gregcss · « **Reply #10 on:** 25 Jan 2014, 02:52 am »

All my tests had Anthem's ARC applied so maybe that impacted my tests.

Austin08 · « **Reply #11 on:** 26 Jan 2014, 07:15 am »

Port chuffing/noise ?????

audiocrazy · « **Reply #12 on:** 26 Jan 2014, 08:28 am »

I'll check that too and report back.

chargedmr2 · « **Reply #13 on:** 27 Jan 2014, 08:32 pm »

Did you figure this out?

I just played this track through my STs both full range and crossed to a sub. I played it LOUD, and no flapping occurred at all. In fact, it sounded downright amazing! Hope this gets resolved for you.

MaxCast · « **Reply #14 on:** 28 Jan 2014, 12:01 pm »

Have you tried the same song from a different CD?

audiocrazy · « **Reply #15 on:** 28 Jan 2014, 05:06 pm »

Quote from: chargedmr2 on 27 Jan 2014, 08:32 pm

Did you figure this out?

I just played this track through my STs both full range and crossed to a sub. I played it LOUD, and no flapping occurred at all. In fact, it sounded downright amazing! Hope this gets resolved for you.

Not yet. I've tried various xovers 40, 60, 80, 100 hz. As i increase the xover flapping reduces. but i don't like the sound at higher xover. My sweep spot is 60hz that produces smooth bass but with this track i can hear the flapping sound.
However when I play with Port plugged flapping reduces but does not go away completely. I had the sound meter record about 89db to 95db. Is that too loud

?
I can see the woofer going in out crazily. I think its bottoming out. So what the alternative to play it this loud without driver bottoming out.

Quote from: MaxCast on 28 Jan 2014, 12:01 pm

Have you tried the same song from a different CD?

Good idea. I have been playing this track from my HDD in FLAC format. It would be worth a try to play it directly from CD. I'll try and report back.

jsalk · « **Reply #16 on:** 28 Jan 2014, 05:34 pm »

Again, it sounds like you may have an issue with a spider that has come loose. If I understand you correctly, it only happens on one speaker. If you switch speakers, does the left still flap and the right not? (In which case a loose spider is not likely to be the cause.). Does it happen with any other musical tracks?

- Jim

chargedmr2 · « **Reply #17 on:** 28 Jan 2014, 06:08 pm »

Quote from: audiocrazy on 28 Jan 2014, 05:06 pm

Not yet. I've tried various xovers 40, 60, 80, 100 hz. As i increase the xover flapping reduces. but i don't like the sound at higher xover. My sweep spot is 60hz that produces smooth bass but with this track i can hear the flapping sound.
However when I play with Port plugged flapping reduces but does not go away completely. I had the sound meter record about 89db to 95db. Is that too loud ?
I can see the woofer going in out crazily. I think its bottoming out. So what the alternative to play it this loud without driver bottoming out.
Good idea. I have been playing this track from my HDD in FLAC format. It would be worth a try to play it directly from CD. I'll try and report back.

How far away from the speaker or speakers did you take your measurements? Was this at 1 meter, or at your LP?

I didn't measure when I listened to this track earlier, but if my wife leaves the house today, I'll measure. She likes music, but not that loud

MikeC78 · « **Reply #18 on:** 30 Jan 2014, 05:24 pm »

I see you have a JTR S2, nice sub! Just an FYI, as I have dual S1's. I was also hearing a "flapping" type noise on heavy bass passages here recently and thought I had issues. The issue was one of my JTR S1's. I actually had to send it back to Jeff. Luckily it was just the hardware that came loose under pressure. Sounded like a spider broke loose as you're describing.

mick wolfe · « **Reply #19 on:** 30 Jan 2014, 05:47 pm »

Quote from: audiocrazy on 28 Jan 2014, 05:06 pm

Not yet. I've tried various xovers 40, 60, 80, 100 hz. As i increase the xover flapping reduces. but i don't like the sound at higher xover. My sweep spot is 60hz that produces smooth bass but with this track i can hear the flapping sound.
However when I play with Port plugged flapping reduces but does not go away completely. I had the sound meter record about 89db to 95db. Is that too loud ?
I can see the woofer going in out crazily. I think its bottoming out. So what the alternative to play it this loud without driver bottoming out.
Good idea. I have been playing this track from my HDD in FLAC format. It would be worth a try to play it directly from CD. I'll try and report back.

Something's compromised with one or both drivers as Jim suggests. My ST's can play 90DB with 100DB peaks with no sense of strain. I normally listen in the mid 80's with peaks in the low to mid 90's however. Pull the drivers and inspect. If a spider or spiders are detached, it'll be obvious.