AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Audio by Van Alstine => Topic started by: Minn Mark on 21 Nov 2013, 01:05 pm
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Excited that Frank should get my Insight EC preamp for upgrading to the new Vision phono circuits today !! Looking forwqard to sharing my impressions once returned. In the meantime, I'm pressing into service my old (1980) SAE 2900. What a difference (very flat-no air) from my Insight phono. Can't wait for the upgraded unit to arrive. More later...
:D
Mark
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Hope you like it.
Wayner
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Excited that Frank should get my Insight EC preamp for upgrading to the new Vision phono circuits today !! Looking forwqard to sharing my impressions once returned. In the meantime, I'm pressing into service my old (1980) SAE 2900. What a difference (very flat-no air) from my Insight phono. Can't wait for the upgraded unit to arrive. More later...
:D
Mark
Wow! I had to look it up - but I had that exact same 2900 in the late, late 70's! I had forgotten all about it. My brother wanted me to buy it because of the parametric equalizer. Certainly fun to play around with the sliders! Memories. :thumb:
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My preamp arrived back from AVA on Monday evening. In addition to the new Vision phono, Frank updated my tone controls, etc to Insight + status. I did not critically listen, but my first impressions of the Vision phono versus my previous Insight phono are:
1) the Vision is MUCH quieter. Now, I thought my Insight phono was quiet (never perceived a problem with extraneous/extra noise), but WOW (you'll see me use this word a lot) the updated preamp as a whole is much quieter.
2) Instruments, soundstage, in general everything is LARGER. I have a VPI Classic I with a Sumiko Blackbird HOMC is several years old. The rest of my system is composed of a AVA Insight 440H and Magnepan 3.6R's. I view it as very 'revealing', due in part to the AVA's ability IMHO to point out good vs less-than-good recordings, matters not the media (I also use a AVA Insight DAC for CDs). On Blue Note reissue LPs (Larry Young Unity), the mix is now more broadly approached and to my ears sounds much more cohesive, versus a more old-style left-right mix from a a stereo or a mono master. On Bill Evans' Waltz for Debby, the opening cut My Foolish Heart brings one into the venue (recorded live). With the Vision phono and the system as a whole, I was brought much MORE into the venue. I love this recording's ambient noise (people speaking, glasses clinking- it unnerves my dog as he looks for these extra folks in my listening room). With the Vision phono I was more THERE, than before (WOW). Additionally, on this first track, Paul Motian uses brushes on the snare. With the Insight phono, I wondered a lit at first what this "noise' was; it took my 55 yo ears to identify it as a brushed snare. Afterwards, whenever I listen to this LP, I reminded myself this is a brushed snare, so I could enjoy the music. With the Vision phono, I not only knew immediately it is a brushed snare drum, I could HEAR the volume of the air inside the snare, and the subtle changes in pressure Paul was applying to the drum head via the brush. Amazing, and....WOW.
3) Less than stellar recordings still sound thus. I picked up the two disc reissue of Metallica's eponymous 1991 album. This recoding always sounded 'hot' to me, lots of zippy high end. With the previous Insight phono, I could localize the drum kit pretty well. With the Vision phono, in my system, the drums are now more integrated into the mix; cymbals sound great and are much larger in presentation. On this quick listen, it seems for this recording the Vision presents a more cohesive and integrated soundstage, but one that for me has lost a bit of the precise instrument placement. Just my first impression; I don't listen to this album a lot. Presentation of the soundstage is overall more coherent. The Maggies have a definite sweetspot, and you who own them know they are 'beamy'. With the Vision phono, I could immediately perceive much more lee-way in where my head/ears were located relative to the speakers, and mush more forgiving if I moved my listenting position. This is a big change from what i was used to. I'll have to listen a lot more and let you know what I think.
4) While my Insight pre-amp was at AVA, I was listening to vinyl via swapping an vintage (ca 1980) SAE 2900 preamp. The SAE have a MM phono stage and I listen mostly without using tome control, loudness contours, etc. When swapped in, I could tell an immediate difference versus my Insight phono. Instrument timbres were fundamentally 'right', but the presentation had no air and was very 'flat'. With the Vision phono, as I mentioned earlier, everything is presented LARGER. Cymbals are huge; the fundamental instrument timbre is there, along with a lot more air. The high-end is very extended, more than enough for my taste, and subtleties in the mix, such as when a sax player steps closer to or farther away from the mic, are a lot more clearly apparent with the Vision phono versus the Insight.
5) I didn't listen to any Cd's last evening, but I have a few LP+CD sets which I can use to compare. On this quick assessment, It sounds to my ears that in the Vision phono Frank has with LP approached the sound of CDs through the Insight DAC.
One issue that I do have that honestly has been problematic for me is that, in my area, I have no other good quality "high-end" or 'reference' systems to listen to. My friends are not into audio, thus, for many years the only systems I've heard are my own (not attended RMAF or other shows). It would be an advantage for me to hear some of the recordings I'll talk about, in another system.
That's it for now. I will give this 'new' system some dedicated, critical listening and post more impressions.
THANKS FRANK- for the quick turnaround (1 week including the shipping) and the much needed updates to the rest of the preamp circuitry. Frank also fixed an issue with my balance control; works flawlessly now.
Happy Holidays,
:D
Mark (@home in Rochester, MN).
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I'm guessing https://sites.google.com/site/audiosocietyofminnesota/ (https://sites.google.com/site/audiosocietyofminnesota/) is not near enough for a listen?
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Spent a little time seriously listening to the new Vision phono this weekend. My initial impression still holds: this phono stage is extremely QUIET. I didn’t think my previous Insight phono circuit was at all noisy, but the soundstage now emerges from a dead quiet, unless I’m really pushing the volume and then will hear some groove noise. I find myself listening at higher volume levels than previously and I attribute this ability to push to louder levels in the extreme quietness of the circuitry. Also, as I inclined before, the Vision phono is very accurate. Therefore, poor recordings sound as such, even more revealing than the Insight phono was. I recently received a bundle from POPMarket-three albums by the Tedeschi Trucks Band. I listened to LP1-side one using my VPI/Sumiko Blackbird/Vision path, while for LP2-side three I cued up on my SOTA Comet/Ortofon 2MRed/ Esoteric Sounds MM phono into a Spare input on the Insight pre-amp. This album (Revelator) is recorded very well, and sounded so using either TT. The Vision really let Susan’s vocal shine, but did alert me even more than with the previous Insight phono, that my room gives me a slightly tubby mid-bass presentation. Occasionally, her female voice was a bit thick. The SOTA/Ortofon/ES chain into the preamp sounds nice, but not near what the VPI/Blackbird/Vision is capable of presenting from a well recorded disc.
I next dove into side one of Donald Fagan’s Morph the Cat, using the Vision. Amazingly well recorded. Huge soundstage, with instruments were well placed and precise. Drums and bass coexisting very well. Pushed to pretty loud level with no straining from the system at all (driving Maggie 3.6Rs with AVA Insight 440H).
Back to some classics: I compared Rockpile’s Seconds of Pleasure via the Vision alongside Graham Parker’s Mona Lisa’s Sister on the SOTA. The Vision showed me this original 80’s pressing of Rockpile is not so great. Some distorted high levels, but I can look past this to enjoy the music. Tightly focused image between the speakers and not a lot of work went into making an interesting mix. The GP Mona Lisa sounded as it always does through the SOTA. I flipped this disc onto the VPI and listened a bit with the Vision….there, that’s better. Very well recorded and the Vision brings through all the best aspects of this recording.
Have not yet compared some LP+CD using my Insight DAC, but will cue those up soon. Assorted jazz LPs played for background via the Vision sounded great. Overall, my upgraded pre-amp works flawlessly: switches are quiet, updated tome controls are fantastic although I don’t use them lots. The Vision is so much more revealing of poor quality LPs, I may find myself tweaking using the tone circuits more in the future.
More later, :D
Mark
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Listened to two new acquisitions last night.
First up: Freddie Hubbard's Red Clay. This is a reissue of the CTI recroding date. The overall sound through my system (VPI Classic+Sumiko Blackbird with the AVA Vision MM RIAA phono in my AVA Insight+ preamp driving Maggie 3.6Rs with AVA Insight 440H, cables by Blue Jeans (TT to pre), Kimber Hero (preamp to amp). Speakers are biwired with 12ga Parts Express speaker cable) is just awesome. I had not heard this recording in my system before, but I mainly listen to vinyl. With the Vision phono the background is dead quiet. The soundstage then explodes, very coherent. Instrument positions are accurate and stable. Dynamic range seems much more extended to my ears versus my other phono preamp (Rec-O-Kut MM) or previous Insight phono.
Next dose: Sonny Rollins' The Bridge . This is a new 180g 'budget' reissue ($14 from Soundstage Direct). Again, the playback system in total delivered a very quiet background. The recorded sax was very real- not 'in the room' real, but very well presented. Dynamics were just the way I like them: real, not overblown. Jim Hall's jazz guitar work on the LP is excellent (I'm a guitar player), and is recorded well. The soundstage is coherent and I can push the volume as high as I like with no strain.
From my posts you can tell I'm a (long time) fan of AVA. The new Vision phono is very revealing. In a transparent system the user will glean information very accurately from vinyl- if you want romantic, tubby, flat, bloated presentations this is not for you. Neither is it overly analytical or dry. In fact, I think the Vision phono is better at presenting the 'real' sound of recorded instruments and vocals than the previous Insight MM phono, which I owned as was very happy with.
I'm not rich by any stretch but I'm fortunate to have some cash to devote to my hobby. This Vision phono is silly good for the money. You can;t go wrong with the reputation for AVA: every product I've ever owned has been rock solid. Bu then this is the AVA circle.
Spread the word- if you're into vinyl or getting into it, give the AVA Vision phono (MM or MC) a serious consideration.
Thanks, Frank for the great products.
Happy Holidays,
Mark
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After several more evenings spent with the new Vision phono circuits in my Insight+ pre-amp (upgraded from Insight phono) I continue to be very happy with the perfromance of Frank's new (old) split passive design. Not to bore you, but the immediate, amazing character of this phono preamp is how quiet it is. Images are rock sold, emerging from an inky black background. I can truly appreciate what writers in TAS, Stereophile mean when they comment about a component's 'quiet' character. I keep my records in the best shape I can, with a vacuum machine and regular dry swiping with an antistat brush and use a zerstat before each play. I would challenge listeners to know I'm listening to LP-unless thay happen to catch a whiff of groove noise between cuts. Dynamic range is huge. Instruments, vocal, everything is presented in a 'larger' way with the Vision versus my previous Insight. As with the Insight phono, the Vision is very accurate: I listened to a new copy of Donald Byrd's Modern Jazz Perspective (LION WAX L61459, 180g vinyl), and I can definitiely hear the occasional microphone distortion of these vinatge recordings, esp on the voals on this LP. My system overall, IMHO is very transparent and, I think, accurate (AVA SS gear, and Magnaplanar 3.6 ). The Vision phono will show you when a recoridng is a great one, and certainly when it's less-than-great. That being said, it's also very musical- I've been happy with my AVA elctronics for years: I had Omega series components for about 10 years before upgrading to Insight, now upgraded preamp to Insight+ with the Vision phono. Whether it's casual or serious listening, my system always draws me into the music. Sometimes I will focus on the shortcomings of a recording- that's the transparent accuracy I like, but that for me in no way takes away from the enjoyment--unless its REALLY BAD ! I expect we've all got a few of those selections in our collections ! I still haven't spun ay classical (orchestral), as I don't listen to that genre much. I do however listen to classical guitar, and I am very pleased with the Vision phono's presentation of Andrew York's gorgeous guitars on his recent LP, Yamour. Andrew's classical guitar is very technically correct but he is also very expressive; the Vision phono places him correctly between the speakers, and as a player myself it's very clear when he plucks the strings nearer the fingerboard versus nearer the bridge. Dynamic swings with his guitar are clear and add to the enjoyment of listening to his modern compositions for the nylon stringed guitar.
For the money as an add-on to your existing equipment,or even as an outboard separate, the Vision phono is well worth your time and money. Crazy good for the money in fact ( I'm listening to the MM version I should point out).
Highly recommended and worth serious consideration.
Wishing you all a Merry Christmas, and Happy Listening,
Mark :D
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Hello All,
After having lived for over six months with the new MM Vision phono preamplifier circuits installed by Frank in my AVA Insight+ EC preamplifier, I want to share some additional comments.
In simplest terms I continue to be very happy with this phono section. My previous impressions continue to be evidenced these months later. The circuits are dead quiet. The dynamic range is extended and smooth. Timbrel character of horns, brass, cymbals, acoustic bass, guitars, etc etc is spot on. Voices, male or female, are very accurately presented, with a smooth character, and not at all harsh. The Vision MM phono throws a soundstage that is wide and deep. I don't have lots of other experience to compare against. The combination of my components (AVA Insight 440H, Insight+EC pre w/ Vision, VPI Classic+ Sumiko Blackbird, Maggie 3.6/R) is very synergistic in my room. I don't use any room treatments or bass trapping/enhancement. The tweeters on my speakers are on the inside of the mirror imaged pair. I listen to all sorts of music, mostly Blue Note LP jazz. I can tell you that the 45rpm sets of Blue Note performers from either Music Matters or Analogue productions sound phenomenal with this phono stage. Lots of dynamics, quiet backgrounds, plenty of air. The soundstage is well presented but not perhaps as etched or holographic as phono setups costing tens of thousands of dollars. It is 'cohesive', which makes for an impression that you really can sense the musicians in the same acoustical environment playing together, and reacting to one another. Blissful. Another crazy good recording using my system is the 33rpm version of Lorna Hunt's All in One Day. Wow. What a great performance can be captured in the hands of talented recording engineers.
For the money,as an internal phono preamplifier, or even as an external add-on, I don't see how one could go wrong using the AVA Vision phono.
Would love to see impressions of an ACer who is using the MC version. Got to be at least as good, maybe better?
Cheers, :D
Mark
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Hi Mark and hello from the Kansas City area!
I've been reading postings on AudioCircle as a nonmember for a few days now, specifically to learn more about Frank's Vision phono, but also to get a feel for how others feel about working with Frank himself. Seems both Frank and the equipment he and his crew put out are pretty highly regarded and I'm very happy to hear that. I've read Frank's own comments about his business philosophy (exchanged a brief email or two with him also) and it certainly does sound like you and others confirm that he does business just the way he says he does. I'm retired now, but part of what I did was advertising & marketing, so I certainly know words are one thing, deeds another.
Your comments about the Vision as installed in the preamplifier have been very helpful to me, particularly as I'm wrestling with whether to get the standalone Vision or an Insight + with the Vision card installed. I'm planning on calling Frank tomorrow (Monday) and asking if the standalone version is even quieter (is isolation/distance from power supply different - does that in the real world end up mattering?) as well as getting a handle on how the RCA jacks are secured to the chassis & where they're located. I just haven't seen a photo of the back of the standalone Vision or the internal layout of it. While location is more a matter of curiosity, if I were to go that route instead of the Insight + the fact that I'm using an Apogee Duet II to digitize vinyl means I might be forced to constantly swap cables on the outputs - something honestly I'd rather not do anyway.
Mark, my system pales in comparison to yours. One day I'll get the Thorens TD-124/II rebuilt, but for now it's a Dual 1219 with Shure V15III outfitted with a JICO SAS stylus. The phono stage I've been using is the one in my Sansui AU-719 and while it's not bad, the Sansui needs to be put to use in the basement system anyway. My thought was once I get my mind made up on which iteration of the Vision would work best for me, it might be helpful to others for me to post a bit about my experiences using it for recording purposes & comparing it to the Sansui's phono stage. What do you think?
Jim Neal
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I spoke with Frank this morning, got my questions answered, and ordered an Insight + EC with the adjustable phono stage. Looking forward to getting it in 2-3 weeks.
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Missouricatman,
Congraulations ! I think you will be very happy and surprised at the performance you are getting in a compact, rock-sold unit. My Insight preamp started out life as an earlier model, and was upgraded, so Ive had it for many years and it's always worked flawlessly. I enjoy using the tone controls when I need to, but I mainly listen with them bypassed. I also use the external processor loop function to put an older EQ and a SAE 5000 pop/click reducer into the chain when I want to use that. What a great feature. I have the remote, but sit close enough to the unit I dont find myself using it much but it works great. The controls are quiet and I think its a great synergy with the AVA power amp I have.
Please post your impressions, and welcome to the AVA family !
Mark
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Evening Mark,
The remote - well Frank asked me about it and my response was I can still get out of a chair and certainly need the exercise. I've heard of the pop/click reducer you've got, but never experienced one.
I'll certainly post my reaction to the Insight +. Honestly, it's been a long time since I bought anything new, so really looking forward to it.
Jim
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My Van Alstine Insight + EC Preamplifier arrived this afternoon. While I won't have time today to set it up, let alone run the comparison tests I've planned (Sansui AU-719 phono stage in particular). I do want to pass along my first impressions.
First, the time from order placement to delivery was well within the 2-3 weeks Frank Van Alstine promised. I do appreciate that.
The shipping box was solid, but devoid of any fancy logos, etc., which based on what little I know of Frank, was exactly what I expected. Printing on shipping cartons is pretty, but unless you ship by the thousands, an unnecessary expense in my opinion.
On the other hand, the dense foam support structure, the part that really matters in shipping, protected the unit very convincingly. By suspending it in the box with material that could itself provide a bit of damping, nothing short of a sharp object thrust 2" into the shipping carton (more than 2" from most angles) could ever touch the preamplifier. I've not seen this particular packing material before, but have seen similar support structures made out of styrofoam. Both can work well, but I certainly prefer Van Alstine's dense foam to styrofoam.
The preamplifier was further protected by being enclosed in a heavy poly bag, thicker by quite a bit than bags used on most consumer grade gear I've purchased.
Sitting on top of the unit, so I could hardly miss it, was a plastic bag that included nine pages of easily readable material. "Easily readable" to me means use of point sizes that don't make me put the page six inches from my nose, double-spacing between segments, bold face for sub heads, and last but not least, a good understanding of the english language. The Van Alstine materials score high on all counts.
Six pages outline general operating and set-up instructions, two detail the adjustable phono section, while the last page is the transferable limited three-year warranty.
I admit that when I was reviewing information on the Van Alstine web site, I looked specifically for this level of detail, but never found it. Perhaps it's there somewhere. My general impression as I skimmed the pages was that I'd actually bought a preamplifier with a bit more capability than I'd realized. The marketing part of me had to wonder if I (and others) might have found it easier to hit the buy button if this level of detail were front and center - but I digress.
Next to the documentation bag was a bag holding the 6' power cord.
Fit and finish of the preamplifier is, if anything, better than the impression I got from the web site photos. This surprised me a bit, so I went back and reviewed the photos. Sure enough, the casing's very sophisticated (IMO) texture just doesn't read in the photos. Neither does the subtly brushed faceplate. I was expecting a matte black faceplate like my Sansui's, but I like this look just a tad bit more. The online photos do show a bit of the light refraction the knobs create, but in reality, there too, there's more going on than you can see in the photos.
In other words, while the impression I got of Frank is of someone who is much more into function than form, he did put a decent amount of attention into the look of the thing.
Tomorrow I'll see if I can stage the preamplifier and get a couple of shots to upload here. Hopefully I'll be able to get the time to actually set it up!
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Congrats on your purchase. Can't wait to hear your impressions !
Mark
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I've just sent my preamp to AVA for an upgrade to the new phono circuit. I was not at all unhappy with previous generation phono stage but based on Frank's description and the detailed review and followup in this thread I decided to pull the trigger.
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Hello, Jim.
I, too, look forward to your impressions once you get the preamp set up in your system. I'm still using an integrated amp in my main system, but I can foresee a time where I will go for separates.
Michael
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Here are some quick shots taken this morning with the iPhone 5s.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=102771)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=102772)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=102773)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=102774)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=102775)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=102776)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=102777)
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In preparation for my comparison of the AVA Insight + EC to the Sansui AU-719 integrated amp phono stage, I’ve made a rough cut of the albums I plan on working with, all disks I know well. While I’ll let my ears do the talking (there’s some sense there I’m sure), my intention is to also record each track using the Apogee Duet 2 at 96/24, amplify them all to -.3db and post what I consider to be the most revealing tracks on YouTube - or at least segments of tracks. Time permitting, I may see what happens if I do a little cut and paste to make an A/B, just because, well I’m a curious guy.
I’m a bit undecided in some cases as to which tracks to work with, so anyone who wishes to chime in go right ahead. Here is where I’m at now. For that matter if anyone feels these albums don’t cover enough ground, feel free to make suggestions. No Blue Note first press monos here, but with 6,000 + albums I do have a few other possibilities!
Bill Evans Trio - Waltz For Debby (Riverside stereo reissue)
LA Philharomonic, Eric Leinsdorf cond. - Excerpts from Romeo & Juliet (Sheffield Lab Direct to Disc)
The Nylons - either a track from One Size Fits All or Rockapella.
Wynton Maralis - either a track from Think of One or Hot House Flowers
Joe Sample - Rainbow Seeker
Leo Kottke - Burnt Lips
Herb Alpert - either Making Love In The Rain, Diamonds (Janet Jackson) or Keep Your Eye On me (12” Maxi—Single)
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...catman,
I am also very familiar with some of your list ( I have the Evans, Marsalis and Kottke LPs) and am also very familiar with the way these sound with my AVA Insight+ w Vision phono (MM) versus my SAE pre-amp. I will be interested to read you comparison versus your AU 719 unit (which I think may be about the vintage of my SAE ( early 1980's?, perhaps earlier?). Interesting coincidence our tastes run along similar lines. I too still have a V15 type IV I use with a Technics SL-D3. I think the AVA/Vision will blow you away.
Mark
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Yes, the Sansui is an 80's era integrated amp, & more than one person has told me that in the Sansui line, it's got one of the better phono stages. I've always liked it, but it's best put into the basement system.
I've just completed my Sansui reference recordings and the very first on on the AVA Insight +. In between, of course I had to actually step back, bring the main amp up and give it a listen. I started with the Herb Alpert, the only 12" 45 rpm in the bunch, and one I know full well extends above 20k, even on my meager system.
Well, Mark, "blown away" probably's pretty accurate! This going to be a REAL interesting (and pleasurable) afternoon. Stay tuned.
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Mark,
Yes, interesting coincidences here. My two V15 IIIs came on Duals I picked up for under $20. The 1219 set me back $10. Massive difference when I got my first JICO SAS stylus. Whether it's the boron cantilever or the SAS shape, nude tip or all three, it really works in this cartridge. I'm doing the recordings today on my second SAS, which had only a few hours on it when I started.
SL-D3 . . . My first separate 'table, bought back in the 80's was an SL-D2, with an Ortofon in it. Still have them both, but really, really need to get that Thorens rebuilt. Darned thing worked fine when I got it, but of course I had to break it down and start in on the thing. Haven't had time since.
Wynton's been sounding great in between recording. I'm running that laptop only on battery for the test and ended up having to let it recharge before I could move on. Joe Sample coming up.
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Missouricatman, Can't wait to hear your report. I am anxiously awaiting the return of my T8+ with the new phono stage. I run a Grado Reference Sonata on a Well Tempered Amadeus (but did have a Dual back in the day!) Your choice of Hot House Flowers was interesting to me. The version of "Stardust" on Hothouse Flowers is still so arrestingly and hauntingly beautiful after all of these years that it will be the first one I play when my preamp returns. Also thanks to Markminn for his original detailed and thoughtful review.
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Tipatina - You clearly have me beat when it comes to the turntable! I really need to dig into the recordings I've made with the old and new setup, but for the moment what I can say is that even with a pretty modest turntable, the phono stage in the Insight + EC does best the old Sansui. I can also say that being kind of into horns (which may explain the Klipsch RF-82IIs) my impression is I'm hearing more throat.
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It's been a while since I listened to Hot House Flowers, but your recent responses had me getting it onto the platter last evening. Had enough time for just a quick listen to Stardust. I agree: with my system, the trumpet sounds great. I'm not a fan of this mix though. While in my system the placement of the various instruments is easily distinguished, I don't care for the way the engineer mixed in the orchestral parts. For me, this would have a lot more impact if would be the simpler combo: trumpet, bass, piano and percussion. WIll leave it on the TT a few days for a more thorough refresh. I am interested in seeing your thoughts on the Bill Evans (Waltz for Debby).
Glad your'e impressed. I think the Vision Phono will continue to enlighten you as to the truth in the recordings; some of your favorites may actually sound worse because the Vision will give you an Insight (pun; sorry !) about what are well recorded performances versus those that aren't. One in particular for me is John Hiatt's Bring the Family. I have an 80's English pressing of this album on Demon records, and it was one of the first ones I heard along with Frank years ago when I bought my first preamp (Omega series) with phono from him. After he pointed out some of the faults to me, it's amazing how I really like these performances, but I get how poor were some of the mixing and compression choices. Pull out what you deem to be your 'best' and test them using the Insight+ with Vision.
Happy listening,
Mark
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Afternoon Mark,
My purchase of the Insight + seems to have prompted my wife to purchase a piece of furniture for the living room, which has led to me channeling my inner interior designer today. In a day or so, this will circle back to adding some sound deadening to the interior of the entertainment center that is home to the Dual (see attached). I know people are cringing, but this is the living room & I have some odd conceptions about what living rooms should look like. Now that I have something half the height of the Sansui, the turntable will get dropped down a few inches. I may actually put the Insight + below the center channel, but do wonder if the magnets in it might adversely affect the signal.
In any event, this AM before my better half woke up, I spun a few Naradas and Windham Hills, which have always been good for me over morning coffee. My idea of a clear difference in sound is when I'm ignoring the music and suddenly something makes me pay attention. That happened several times this morning. Despite the volume being set low, I realized what was getting my attention was attack. Attack on violins, pianos, pretty much everything.
For some reason I started thinking of cars with soft rides vs. sports models with suspensions that let you really feel the road. I know similar analogies have been made with respect to cartridges, but this was the first time I really gave much consideration to the reality of my own system. Despite the Dual's shortcomings, with that SAS stylus it's been putting out more than the Sansui was able to pass along down the line. The Insight + certainly resolved one weakness in my system.
More later. Time to move some furniture.
Jim
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=102972)
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Minn Mark,
Waltz for Debby - OK, it's dead quiet this AM, so I thought, why not? This is a Riverside/Fantasy reissue and I've never heard any other pressing, so I've nothing to compare it to.
I started by listening via my Sennheiser HD598s plugged into the AVA Insight + EC. Now there are certainly better headphones out there. Perhaps it's the open air design, but I've come to understand that the bass at times is a little thin. No surprise, again they just seemed to lack a little weight. The Insight + EC tone controls, which I've toyed with enough to know they're smooth and on my system, provide a nice, but subtle, boost, really didn't do much for the headphones, but I'll chalk it up to the headphones.
The Insight + did a great job, so great that I pulled the headphones off a couple of times thinking my wife had gotten up early and snuck up behind me. Nope, it's the audience. I'm picking up some of what's being said here and there. An "oh yeah," that unfortunately didn't seem directed at the musicians. Where were these guys set up? Next to the bar? No, actually sounds like someone picking up glasses and clinking them as they go on a tray.
One thing about this pressing, it's pretty darned quiet and the Insight + really, um, brings out the silence! Normally I'd expect to hear some noise mixed in with the audience, but I don't. When track one applause fades out, I hear, well, not much of anything.
Then I played side one again, through the Denon and Klipsches. OK, now the audience recedes and is no longer overbearing. Still obviously there, but the headphones were making them rather annoying.
I found myself tracking Scott Lafaro's bass, noting that as he'd go up and down the scale, the Insight + tracked it quite nicely, meaning the response seemed even all the way down. Little clicks at times that made me think I was hearing nails on strings & perhaps I was. String gets hit hard and the rapid spread out & snap back vibrations, well they're certainly there. Sorry, I'm sure there's a better way to describe how differently a string sounds when it's really stressed.
I have to say Paul Motian's brushwork on Detour Ahead is nice, smooth, subtle. Better than I've heard it before? Hard to say. I can only say that this AM it does sound quite nice.
On the technical side of things, I've been able to confirm that the Insight + has helped reduce and isolate a 60Hz hum I've fought off and on for some time. In the past if I were to crank things up (with turntable at idle), I could hear it. Apparently the Sansui was a contributor, but clearly the Insight's not (I would have been pretty surprised if it was).
Yesterday I was able to dress cables a bit, so took a few minutes to chart the noise floor. I can still chart the 60Hz & harmonics, with 60Hz peaking at -86dB and the rest stair-stepping down, but still above of the noise floor. I should say that I'm charting using Audacity and I'm not at all convinced that the numbers are all that accurate. Still it does help me with basic diagnostics.
In any event, I know the the line to the 'table is leaking, & that directing it away from the signal leads in the 'table does help. A little surprised that now it's clearly only minimally related to the motor. It only drops a few dB when the motor's idle, but sinks below the noise floor when I disconnect the line from the wall
While I can't hear it at all at this point, I don't like seeing it because I have to assume it's causing some problems, but I can crank everything up and all I hear is the gentle hiss of the floor. Just something I seem to always be obsessing on, so when time permits I'll obsess a little more.
Jim
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Nice photos. I don't see an amp. Are you using the amp portion of the Sansui? Now bitten by the AVA bug, you should look at Frank's line of amps- killer !
Yes, the Waltz for Debby is eerie in it's ambient cues. It can be one of those love-hate things. On some recrdings it can drive you nuts, all the extraneous noise. Evans' Portrait in Jazz also sounds excellent via AVA-Vision. I'm a long time fan of Leo Kottke so will be interested in your impressions there, as well. Try some Liz Story or Will Ackerman. I think so far you are hearing what I reported using the Insight+Vision so it appears you have a fairly revealing system. I don't use headphones much, but when I have, I enjoy the nice little headphone amp in the Insight. The tone controls are nice to have, but the effects are subtle; I prefer them this way. For more dramatic tonal alterations I have a graphic EQ. As I posted earlier, I don't use them much and mainly listen with them defeated. Likewise, the low Gain option is subtle, IMO. In my room I do have to alter the balance, as I get some non-equal attenuation of the backwave signal from the Magnapans. Other than that, images are dead solid and pretty holographic. A great recording to test this is Dead Can Dance's Spiritchaser. An aural treat !
Happy Listening,
Mark
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Mark,
Yes, I'd say anybody who buys an Insight + EC thinking the tone controls are like the old, coarse bass & treble knobs, needs to understand they're far more subtle. This is a pretty sophisticated component and I imagine the thinking here is that it's going to be part of a system that's on par with it (my system being something of an exception). I'm with you on this one. They do what I need, do it well and do no more.
As for the balance control, again, remarkably smooth and subtle. I say this after having done some recording and I often run into used vinyl where one channel's down a hair. In the past I've made the adjustment on the Apogee Duet 2. The Insight + balance control is even finer grained. in cases where the Apogee control puts it on either side of where I want to be, the Insight + balance control gets it right on the money.
I seldom wear headphones for listening, but I got in the habit of using them for work decades back and still use them when recording or editing. I figured with the cats getting me up at 4 AM this morning, it made sense to use them so I could have a decent listening level with my wife asleep in the next room (I know what side my bread's buttered, y'know).
The amp in photo is the Denon AVR-990, which is at the bottom of the rack behind the glass door. Run in pure direct mode, it performs well enough for the front room. I did temporarily hook up the Sansui to the Kilpshes a few months back and while it was marginally better than through the Denon, not enough for me to go to the bother of setting up source selector switches for the speakers.
I used to have the Dual & Sansui hooked up downstairs to a set of Infinity Reference 6's my wife bought me new sometime in the last century. Big improvement, particularly in lower mids and bottom end. It makes a lot more sense to put the Sansui back down there, perhaps temporarily set up the Dual 721.
Would I be willing to give one of Frank's amps a try after having gotten a taste of the AVA preamp? Well if finances permitted, sure. He and his crew certainly know what they're doing and anybody looking to put together a really great system that delivers a lot more than what you'd expect based on price would be smart to take a hard look at his entire line. My problem is there are far too many home remodel projects that absolutely, positively need to take priority. I figure it this way. My wife was good enough not to blink when I told her I wanted to get the preamp, so it's probably a good idea for me to move forward on the kitchen, dining room, flooring throughout the house . . .
OK, so you know your "New Age"! I imagine you know WH sent demos to stations like candy, apparently without much regard to station format. Because of that, I've been fortunate enough to put together a pretty decent collection of near mint disks, most with the original bio sheets. I have Solid Colors up here, but if I remember my titles correctly, it's Unaccountable Effect I preferred, so should pull that one too. Plenty of Ackerman who I understand has threatened to punch anybody who calls his music New Age. It does seem to be used as a catch-all. The one I pulled the other day was Past Light.
But the one I really want to check is David Lynch - Sky of Mind. I had that one on the old system downstairs once and the bells, the cello - I just kept kicking it up another notch and stepping back until I had it practically all the way up and I was the other side of the room. Just amazing.
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Hmmm... I think you may mean Ray Lynch ?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=102987)
I'm a guitarist (amateur), so I have lots of the WH Michael Hedges. George Cromarty's good, too. Yes, I picked up a 'hoard' of WH LPs (40+) for about $1 each some time back. Many look virtually unplayed. Good stuff.
M
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Clearly I hadn't had enough coffee this morning. Yes, Ray Lynch, of course. I should have remembered, since I once sent him a message to see if there were still copies on vinyl available. Got a nice reply from I think his wife saying they did have a few, but $50 was more than I wanted to pay. I don't have an original pressing. The re-press has a much more boring cover.
I have I think two Michael Hedges and one George Cromarty. A buck a pop's what I had to pay for the last big stash I ran into. Unfortunately a lot of them were more recent issues on the various spin-off labels. I like them, but the earlier stuff interests me more for some reason.
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If you have the Sheffield Labs Dave Grusin Discovered Again album....that'll be a real treat sound-wise.
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I do like Dave Grusin, but don't have that one. I can count the number of Sheffield labs I have on one hand - and have several fingers left over (drat).
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3VxHIIqaEs
I've just uploaded Waltz for Debby (Riverside/Fantasy reissue), recorded this afternoon at 96/24 from the AVA Insight + EC line out, using the Apogee Duet 2 and a 2014 MacBook Pro. Turntable is a Dual 1219, outfitted with a Shure V15 III and JICO SAS stylus. I have left some of the head and tail intact so one can hear what I hear between tracks.
Nothing whatsoever has been done to the recording, other than fade up and out. Level is exactly how it was captured, probably about -3 dB. Album art is also from my copy. People with better copies/better systems (and ears that didn't get too close to The James Gang at a South Dakota State concert in the 70's) I'm sure have heard this track better, but for me, this is certainly a step up from how it sounded before I got the Insight +
The track is set to private.
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Aha. And the plot thickens. My first concert was JoJo Gunne at Nash Gymasium in Yankton, SD in the ealry 70's. If you're a native South Dakotan, I would certainly assert that:
1) South Dakotans have astute musical tase, and
2) we gravitate toward good equipment, a la AVA !
I never did the State Fair, but did haunt SE SD a good many years through school at USD and playing in various 'weekend warrior' bands. First band to play in the DakotaDome in Vermillion, back in the day...
I should add some Grusin to my library.
Happy listening,
Mark
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Mark,
OK, I'm busted. While I live in the Kansas City area and have lived in Arizona a good part of my adult life, grade school and Jr. High years had me in Rapid, while high school was Brookings. My father taught journalism at SDSU at that time, but seems the moment I enrolled at SDSU, he took a job in Lincoln, and I was left to my own devices in Brookings (Yay, Hobo Day!). While I didn't even finish the first semester, I caught The James Gang and The Carpenters - both played in the same big air hanger type building.
Given your music chops & SDAK ties I have to wonder if you've ever crossed paths with some of the people I knew in high school who were musically inclined Randall (Randy) Royer who is still in SDAK and taught music for years at the university level, or the guys in a group called The Ride, some of whom did a tour in the ever-changing group The Fabulous Flippers.
In any event, I'm sure that my time in SDAK still makes me much of who I am. I bought from AVA primarily because Frank seemed pretty grounded & while he's certainly proud of what he puts out (rightly so), part of what I think he's proud of is that he's found ways to keep his overhead down and seems to think that there's a bit of an obligation to pass that on to the customer.
You know, There's well-known manufacturer of phono preamps here in the Kansas City area that gets a fair amount of tech press. I did correspond with the fellow, even got an offer to buy an early prototype board of a phono stage that has sold pretty well for him. I could have gotten a case, added shielding, etc., but in the end it still seemed like too much money for what I would have ended up with. Perhaps it was that photo of him I came across on the web. Him in what appeared to be a sports convertible.
If I had to sum up my philosophy of music, it's that at its best, music is supposed to bring people together to bring out the good in people.
Probably why I'm proud to say I've traded a lot more records than I've ever sold. I don't see it much different from handing my garden vegetables over the fence to the new young couple who would like to have a garden one day.
OK, a couple more comments about the Insight +. First just as you pointed out it's likely to bring out both the best and worst from records. Fortunately my experience for the most part has been that my favorite records sound better, but at the same time I've had some instances where groove wear that resulted in some splattering of highs (brass, ocarinas), was a lot more apparent than it was on the Sansui.
Second, the Insight's also not as forgiving of my Dual 1219. I have a nasty 7Hz resonance hump that I've always fought and it's pretty bad at the moment. Even records that appear pretty darned flat can get it going. On the Sansui I seldom noticed it, but the Insight + has no problem reproducing the phase shifting that plays out on things like piano sustains and ringing bells. It sounds rather like a minor wow, but mixed with a synth-like phasing.
In truth I'm happy the Insight + is that revealing. I was hoping it would be good enough for me to consider it the reference, the baseline for my system. I wanted it to help me identify problems in other components and it certainly seems to be doing that.
Jim
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The best (and best sounding) Grusins are Discovered Again (the CD sounds fantastic - though I'm not crazy about the heavier Plus version), Mountain Dance and Out of the Shadows. His later stuff is a bit too MOR, soft and his band(s) are not as tight for me.
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Charmerci - I have a copy of Mountain Dance. I'll give that a spin
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Update on the AVA Insight + playing Leo Kottke and a comment on my uploaded test recording.
The short story - the Insight + is performing at a much higher level than what I was able to capture in the test recording. Whether it's via headphones at the Insight, the main amp, or playing through my Klipsch RF-82 IIs, there is so much more high end, attack, snap than what I'm capturing that it's really kind of embarrassing, so I'd say if anyone gives that upload a listen and wonders if that's all there is, let me assure you it's not.
I'd hoped to upload a track that would allow someone interested in getting a feel for how the tone controls work to hear what I hear, but that's just not possible. Listening to the test recording, where I punched in and out with treble set around 1:30, I couldn't hear the difference, but trust me, there is a difference. If you feel that you need to open things up just a bit, that may actually be a hair more than you need. On Burnt Lips it certainly is for me. I'm on the fence as to whether the record as played on my system, really needs to be messed with at all.
I've listened to Burnt Lips a couple of times now, once last night. In all cases Kottke's voice was so well anchored I thought I had him on a center channel, a really GOOD center channel. I won't go so far as to say he was on a stool in my living room, but pretty darned close and if I had a better turntable pretty sure that would do it. Again, a man's got to know his limitations, and in this case it's certainly not the Insight +
There's something about the edge of Kottke's voice that just works with his choice of instrument. And as for the guitar, past experiences with it made me feel like he was crazy all over the place and kind of difficult to listen to. This time while he's still kind of wild with what he does (in a good way), it seems a lot more coherent, easier to follow and certainly much more pleasant. I had it on last night at what I'd call a "talk to the wife without raising my voice" level and found it a darned pleasant listen. Look, when you follow up George Winston's December with Leo Kottke's Burnt Lips and don't find the transition jarring, to me that's something.
So once again the Insight + is proving out to be not only an outstanding addition to my system that has improved my listening experience greatly, it's providing me with a reference that's helping me pin down weak spots that I clearly need to address. Exactly what I was hoping for.
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Note that the Insight+ preamps and Vision DACs are on sale right now at 15% off.
And if you purchase an AVA power amplifier at the same time as an AVA preamp and/or DAC right now, then all are 15% off, including the power amp.
The sale runs through the end of August.
Frank Van Alstine
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This is a bit off-topic, since it relates to a feature of the Insight + other than the phono stage, but since I opted for the preamp over the stand-alone phono stage, thought it made sense to actually hook something up to one of those other inputs.
So, you remember those things called cassettes? If you're like me, you probably put a fair amount of money into a good deck for your car, and had more than one of those little cases to carry your music with you when you went on a road trip. If you're like me, today you still check out used cassettes because there might be a title you want that you've never come across on CD or vinyl.
Like the digitally remastered Tony Bennett/Bill Evans album.
It was just for little finds like this that I picked up a nice, mint Denon DRM-800. I'm sure there are better decks out there, but I've never heard 'em.
So how does the Insight + handle a decent cassette source? Well very nicely, if you ask me.
I started out with Lyle Lovett - Pontiac and the moment the music came on I thought, I don't care how much crap I get for playing cassettes, I'm going to be playing a lot more of them from now on.
As for Bennett with Evans, it's wonderful and a little sad at the same time. If you haven't heard Tony Bennett from back then you're really missing something. As for Bill Evans, knowing it wouldn't be that long until we lost him, it's a little hard to listen to. Regardless of his aversion to working with vocalists, he did it very well. A nice one to be in my collection - regardless of the format.
So another plus for the Insight +.
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Tipatina and Minn Mark - since you both mentioned Marsalis' Stardust, I decided to use it as a test of some modified cables I made today by melting my thumb with a soldering iron. I put together a video with the track that includes a couple of spectrographs I pulled from the Audacity file post ClickRepair. Unfortunately I uploaded it before I remembered that the way ClickRepair works is to replace what it considers to be damage with low-level noise well above 20kHz, which is pretty much what you see in the 30k-40k range. So to be fair, I'm including in this post a spectrograph of the first 1:30 taken from the master file prior to ClickRepair. Wish I'd remembered . . . I would have forgone it.
Comments, however horribly harsh, are encouraged. The file is set to private.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMp9ocMeu18
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=103230)
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The file sounds fine via my Mac. Don't have a way to listen to this through my audio system, though.
What are your impressions of your modded cables via the Insight+Vision? Is it easier to tell differences with the more revealing pre-amp?
Please post more of your impressions of the Vision phono. You got the adjustable version (MM/MC), right? Have you tried altering the settings? What settings are you using?
Thanks in advance.
Mark
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Morning Mark,
In your honor, I suppose, I'm listening to Michael Hedges - Watching My Life Go By, while watching a thunderstorm roll past. George Cromarty - Wind In The Heather will be next.
Yes, I got the adjustable version of the Vision phono stage. I let Frank know I was using a Shure V15 III and did check Shure's specs to be certain it didn't require any special setup, so it's set the way Frank had it set and I'm not inclined to play with it for the time being.
I asked for the MM/MC adjustable version because I didn't want to limit myself in the future. It may be some time before I move to a turntable and arm setup where I could realize the benefits of a moving coil cartridge, but when I do, I'm quite certain the preamp will be more than up to it. I know at this point I'm not really able to hear it fully, but as I've said, even in my meager setup, the improvements have been pretty impressive.
About those cables I modded. Well it would be nice to have a fully balanced system, but I don't. The cables had nothing to do with my normal listening setup, just my recording.
The Apogee Duet 2 is really designed for balanced inputs, so while in software you can make some input adjustments, you still need unbalanced RCA to balanced XLR cables (or an isolation transformer box) to get in the thing. I've been fairly successful with a 2' pair of cables advertised as able to achieve the goal - and to work in reverse just as well - but as I researched how this "last resort" way of connecting unbalanced to balanced works, I came to understand the best way to wire the cables wouldn't allow for "reverse." Several sources said the shield should be grounded on the RCA end, but left loose on the XLR end, so it wouldn't be able to work as an RF antenna. So I had fun re-doing the XLR end.
I try very hard not to claim to hear differences I know I want to hear, so verdict is out on whether I really hear the difference in the cables. I THINK I do, and what I THINK I hear is borne out on the charts I've been pulling. First, it did drop the signal strength somewhat, which tells me I could benefit from a better set of cables, which is my plan. I just wanted to confirm the pinout before ordering. Second, the high end seems to have opened up a hair. Third, it does look as though I reduced low-level RF. Hey, I'm just happy that they work at least as well as before I cut into 'em!
A word about cable selection. I'm not one for exotic, expensive cables, but having worked in TV & radio I do know there are cables that can do the job well, cables that are designed only for certain loads, and there are junk cables. Working with the recording cables yesterday reinforced that I also need to get a decent set to go between preamp and amp. I say that because when I chart the noise floor downstream of the preamp, I see a representation that includes the RIAA curve. I see changes in the curve after modding my recording cables, so I'm reminded that all that the Insight + EC is putting out may not be getting to the amp either. Blue Jeans Cable made me a decent set that I use between the turntable and the Insight + so I'm inclined to have Wayne make sets for all the other components.
As for my overall impression of the Vision phono stage, it, too, continues to improve. Whether I'm listing to very quiet, soothing music in the morning, or putting on some 80's synth' rock in the afternoon, It just delivers so much more than the Sansui did. I think the most pleasant surprise has been how full things seem to be at very low listening levels - which is how I run things pretty much every morning.
You know, if you have the right music on during a nice rain, getting your music balanced with the sounds of nature is a pretty pleasant experience.
Jim
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I've finalized the location for the Insight + EC. 2" thick batts, covered in black cloth provide some isolation for both the Insight and turntable. Perhaps more importantly, wires are now hidden - a wife factor (well I appreciate it too). And hats off to my wife, Ellen, who actually made the batts!
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=103327)
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I received my T8+ with new MM phono stage Friday and have listened seriously only about an hour secondary to having to work over the weekend. I did listen to "Stardust" from Hot House Flowers since we have discussed it in this thread and as I really like that cover it is very familiar. Listening with the Vision I hear less of a "wall of sound" and more individual voices of instruments and groups of instruments in the countermelodies and call and response built into the arrangement. I also have very much enjoyed listening to Joanne Brackeen's version of "Stardust", old Heath Brothers LPs and The Notting Hillbillies. Just on the basis of the ear test in my listening room with my system (described in an earlier post on this thread), I am judging this a cost effective upgrade.
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OK, I know this thread's old, but it wasn't until just today I put something on my old turntable that really gave me an idea of what a huge upgrade the Vision is for me. I picked up a reasonable copy of Lincoln Mayorga & Distinguished Colleagues Volume III. If you're not familiar with it, this is a Sheffield Lab Direct-To-Disk. Now I have a few DTD's but, this one - even at a pretty low level I almost fell out of the chair! Talk about attack, I almost had one, no kidding. Percussion hit so hard I mistakenly thought something had fallen off the mantel.
And if you know anything about the rest of my gear, you know overall it's pretty mundane, so if the vision is doing this now, well one day maybe I'll REALLY find out how good it is when I make some very overdue upgrades in other areas.
Thanks Frank, and a belated Happy Birthday!
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So...it's getting close to a year I've been living with my upgraded Insight+ preamp with the Vision phono (MM) section. And...I'm still loving it. Very quiet, nice wide dynamic range, pure tonality and truthful to the recording, therefore very revealing. Seems a nice combination with VPI Classic 1 and Sumiko Blackbird. Acoustic groups (Old Crow Medicine Show's Remedy) guitar (Leo Kottke), jazz (Blue Note), rock (AC/DC), vocals (Lorna Hunt to Manhattan Xfer to Tom Waits); there isn't a genre I listen to that the Vision phono is untruthful to. Nice coherent sounstage with accurate presentations. On recordings with reverb it is very truthful to the room sounds or studio reverb (Bill Evans' Waltz for Debby and Poco's Crazy Eyes). Fabulous value for the money. I smile with every album on the turntable. Thanks Frank.
Happy Halloween !
Mark
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Happy Halloween to you too. For me it's a bit more than that. 25th wedding anniversary!
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Yes indeed! Those old Sheffield Lab Direct-To-Disk records will give you system breaking dynamics with our Vision phono preamplifier.
It makes CD sound pretty nambey pambey.
Frank
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Very true, Frank. I've also discovered that there are records cut hot enough that I've had to turn down the Insight + to keep from over driving the amp. Initially I ran it at about 1-2 o'clock, but found for me the sweet spot's more like 10 o'clock. As you said, the Insight + has power to spare. Absolutely the strongest component in my system.