AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Power Conditioning => Topic started by: andycsb on 1 Jul 2017, 08:56 pm
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Seeking user experiences. Most claim that there is a "burn in" period (100 to 400 hrs) for AC receptacles, a sonic roller-coaster during that period if you will. Usually starts off somewhat muffled and veiled...then it starts to open up. Bass fills in etc etc.
Has anyone experienced somewhat the reverse? Starts off somewhat aggressive and brightish....gets progressively brightish whilst opening up...then it settles down...gets more musical, fuller and more relaxed/smooth especially in the upper mids on up.
I have the Furutech GTX D (g). Your experiences on any brand would be most welcomed as well. Thanks.
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Hey, andycsb.
I use a cryo treated Hubbell receptacle. It exhibited the bright edgy aggressive sound for quite awhile. It then was a roller coaster ride of sounding good one day and then falling apart the next. The process take more than 500 hours. I honestly felt it took about three months to settle in; and my system is on 14-16 hours a day. Hang in there.
Cheers,
Scott
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I have no clue how a listener after 100 to 400 hours, could weed out the small change in sound from a receptacle with so many uncontrolled variables causing large changes.
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+1
To accurately discern tiny differences in SQ after hundreds of hours of burn-in seems like a stretch.
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Things need to gel and that takes time. I've had days where I had no soundstage whatsoever and all I could hear were the speakers. Then there are days when it is heaven(more of these than not btw). Being able to pin point one item over another is difficult. Best to give all your electronics time to settle - like 500+ hours of time before you can expect nirvana moments. I have the SR UEF, Furutech Rhodium, and Cardas silver outlets. I prefer the SR unit. They are side by side in two boxes on the same 20 amp line.
My system is lightyears better in performance this year than last year when the room was finished. More better components and hundreds of hours on cables and outlets and gizmos. Chance are you'll make more system changes before your duplexes break in so you'll never really know.
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I have no clue how a listener after 100 to 400 hours, could weed out the small change in sound from a receptacle with so many uncontrolled variables causing large changes.
Cuz you can't! :duh:
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Cuz you can't! :duh:
Absolutely! They aren't small changes, it's very obvious.
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Seeking user experiences. Most claim that there is a "burn in" period (100 to 400 hrs) for AC receptacles, a sonic roller-coaster during that period if you will. Usually starts off somewhat muffled and veiled...then it starts to open up. Bass fills in etc etc.
Has anyone experienced somewhat the reverse? Starts off somewhat aggressive and brightish....gets progressively brightish whilst opening up...then it settles down...gets more musical, fuller and more relaxed/smooth especially in the upper mids on up.
I have the Furutech GTX D (g). Your experiences on any brand would be most welcomed as well. Thanks.
Yes, the GTX do give you the roller coaster effect and it's very noticeable and very annoying. I've found it goes from fairly normal sounding but a bit harsh to closed-in and dark, or muffled/veiled, and back again for weeks before settling down. I'd run a fridge or something off of it if possible for a month or so before installing. It is possible to burn them in on a cable cooker too, that's what I do and it reduces burn-in effects and length of time.
A couple years ago I brought a SurgeX with partially burned-in GTX(R) over to a friends system and didn't say anything, it started out sounding normal but after a while it changed and got dark/closed-in sounding and he noticed it right away. :green:
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Don't know why, but, ya, its different from start to finish. And they sound different.
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Absolutely! They aren't small changes, it's very obvious.
Dude, I'm sorry but if you get everything else right these things mean nothing. In a proper test there is no way you can hear an outlet that's new out of the box and one that has 400 hrs on it. Ain't happening.
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Are you suggesting someone would have trouble in an DBT ABX? Or that they just don't sound different? Because they sure as shit sound different...
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I definitely found a difference when I changed my stock outlet after 7 years to a cryo-ed Hubbell HBL 5262. At first it was veiled and warm sounding but also pleasing without harshness. I left all my gear running 24/7 and listened periodically and it definitely sounded different from the start. It's sounded the same after the first 2-3 weeks. The ongoing changes were quite noticeable in the first 2-3 days. It was just something I was not previously used to sonically, so not even a matter of preference or bias. Of course, I can't keep unplugging or plugging outlets. It was a one time deal, but I did put a few thousand hours over those years with the same gear for most part. So I know how my system sounds regardless of how I'm feeling.
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I definitely found a difference when I changed my stock outlet after 7 years to a cryo-ed Hubbell HBL 5262. At first it was veiled and warm sounding but also pleasing without harshness. I left all my gear running 24/7 and listened periodically and it definitely sounded different from the start. It's sounded the same after the first 2-3 weeks. The ongoing changes were quite noticeable in the first 2-3 days. It was just something I was not previously used to sonically, so not even a matter of preference or bias. Of course, I can't keep unplugging or plugging outlets. It was a one time deal, but I did put a few thousand hours over those years with the same gear for most part. So I know how my system sounds regardless of how I'm feeling.
Have to agree with you , about three months ago I ordered a custom built Odyssey Kismet amplifier, and since I was told that it had to be plugged in a AC outlet 24/7 I decided to order a couple of PS audio power ports classic , (expensive $ 49.00 each) to replace 14 year old power outs that came with the home , including the circuit breaker . first thing I noticed when I used the volt meter was a drop in voltage( from 122 volts) through out the day between 118.5 to 121.7 this continued for about a week , any way changed the powers cords to Pangea MK 14 on my Parasound Integrated Halo and the HSU VTF 15 Subwoofer , found very noticeable difference in the SQ quality including Bass on my Maggie 1.7i , which made me a believer in after market power cords and changing the receptacles in my secondary office system , two weeks ago I got my Kismet amplifier , it sound just way too different from the Parasound Halo. obviously every little tweak helps in this expensive hobby . Cheers !
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Are you suggesting someone would have trouble in an DBT ABX? Or that they just don't sound different? Because they sure as shit sound different...
Both.
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Dude, I'm sorry but if you get everything else right these things mean nothing. In a proper test there is no way you can hear an outlet that's new out of the box and one that has 400 hrs on it. Ain't happening.
I think you have it bass ackwards... the better the system the easier it is to notice the improvement a GTX receptacle will make.
But I'd guess you've never tried one, so your opinion on the subject seems worthless.
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I think you have it bass ackwards... the better the system the easier it is to notice the improvement a GTX receptacle will make.
But I'd guess you've never tried one, so your opinion on the subject seems worthless.
Actually I have...
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"Dude, I'm sorry but if you get everything else right these things mean nothing. In a proper test there is no way you can hear an outlet that's new out of the box and one that has 400 hrs on it. Ain't happening."
Of course you hear what you hear. As for what I and others hear, please spare us from the pompousness of your posts.
Yes, I too have some of these receptacles.
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"Dude, I'm sorry but if you get everything else right these things mean nothing. In a proper test there is no way you can hear an outlet that's new out of the box and one that has 400 hrs on it. Ain't happening."
Of course you hear what you hear. As for what I and others hear, please spare us from the pompousness of your posts.
Yes, I too have some of these receptacles.
Sorry but it really doesn't work that way on a public forum...
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jt, as much as I tend to enjoy your posts on the forum... You've been coming off very Zealot lately... Why try and inform people they're just too dumb to realize they can't hear anything they say they hear? Even IF you were right, what good does it bring? I cannot help but believe you've been blinded by the limits to your knowledge, that basically ends where simple graphs do. The alternative is that everyone is absolutely retarded and won't be once they drink the Kool-aid? Uhuh..
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Dude, I'm sorry but if you get everything else right these things mean nothing. In a proper test there is no way you can hear an outlet that's new out of the box and one that has 400 hrs on it. Ain't happening.
Proper test? :duh:
How about this for a true proper test.
Buy two Furutech GTX R duplex receptacles.
1) Connect them both to the AC mains and compare them to one another. Do both cause the audio system to pretty much sound the same?
2) Pick one of the two and leave it connected to the AC mains power. Put the other one back in the box.
3) Burn in the one chosen to be connected to the AC mains for about 200 hours.
4) Connect the one, that was put back in the box, to the AC mains and compare it to the one that has been burned in for 200 hours. Do you hear a difference between the two from the audio system?
5) Pull the boxed outlet from the AC mains again and put it back in the box.
6) Continue burning in the other outlet for an additional 100 to 200 hours.
7) Repeat #4 above again. Listen for any differences.
NOTE.
Instead of using an audio system to burn in a Furutech GTX R receptacle it would be better, and less time consuming, to use a refrigerator to burn in the receptacle.
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Proper test? :duh:
How about this for a true proper test...
This won't work in this particular case as the sound changes back and forth. It's so obvious though, it's not subtle at all. I don't need a proper test to tell black from white.
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A better first test would be:
Install a Furutech duplex receptacle and a plain jane duplex receptacle in the wall outlet box. The cover plate and both receptacles should be the same color. Label one receptacle 'heads' and the other 'tails'. Have a friend flip a coin and plug your system in cover the cord & outlet then leave. Now you can listen, but no peeking.
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This discussion is becoming very religious in terms of what people believe. :lol:
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Thanks Everyone for sharing your experiences. I did experience burn in with my ICs, power cords and speaker cables. Tone remained the same but there were definite changes in high freq (siblilance) and bass for sure. I am pretty sure the GTX (g) will also change in sonic character and am keeping my fingers crossed that it will mellow and smoothen out. I do understand that it won't be night and day but 5 to 10 percent change in the right direction would be great.
Anyone using the GTX (g) and experience it mellowing it out after burn in? Don't really need any more air and detail.
Thanks again.
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I think you have it bass ackwards... the better the system the easier it is to notice the improvement a GTX receptacle will make.
But I'd guess you've never tried one, so your opinion on the subject seems worthless.
I always wonder about what systems the scoffers listen with. They never claim there is a difference/improvement.. and that others are wasting their money. In contrast, the more transparent/revealing your system is the more obvious these changes do make.
I realize that if my system was using several speaker cables that I have forgone that I suppose I too would not be able to detect the differences these tweaks make.
I also find that scoffers seem to travel in packs. They enjoy putting down. Take note of where they gather. Its a type of personality.
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I have no clue how a listener after 100 to 400 hours, could weed out the small change in sound from a receptacle with so many uncontrolled variables causing large changes.
agreed, I had a good laugh .........
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One experience I had (years ago) was a common brand 'hospital' recepticle. It had an orange face...
Anyway I put it in and time passed..
(a few months.
I was noticing how muffled my system was sounding.
I removed the outlet, and KABOOM! back to 'normal'.
I cut open the outlet and it had some oily goo in it. Apparently to stop insertion sparks etc.
Anyway , the thing got discussed on another site. And a few folks mentioned problems with some duplex.
So I would just throw this experience out there for those who think no one can 'hear' an outlet.
Also, one problem with 'dissenters'.. Plenty of former folks who say wire is wire, a power cord is a powercord, ditto duplex..
I too used to think that. I discovered my assumptions were wrong.
This does seem to be a one way enlightenment. People who used to be damn sure folks who say they can hear a difference are deluded, suddenly actually find to their surprise they too can hear a difference.
So I view the 'Flat Earther' types as merely folks who just have not taken off their self imposed blinders. They cannot hear, so they are just certain everyone who can hear are deluded. LOL
I actually do not care what someone thinks. Oddly the folks who say no seem to need to convince anyone who will listen they are 'right'. (like they are preaching to wake up the deluded)
Such as interjecting their belief into threads with questions to folks who do hear differences..
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Also, one problem with 'dissenters'.. Plenty of former folks who say wire is wire, a power cord is a powercord, ditto duplex..
I too used to think that. I discovered my assumptions were wrong.
This was my experience, as well.
The dissenters are nearly always people who haven't tried it, and that's totally unscientific; nevertheless, they have the audacity to base their arguments on science.
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This was my experience, as well.
The dissenters are nearly always people who haven't tried it, and that's totally unscientific; nevertheless, they have the audacity to base their arguments on science.
Science is good. If you have enough facts to work with.
Science is bad. When science thinks it knows all there is to be known. And, it doesn't.
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I would say it as..
Knowing is NOT understanding..
Someone might know all sorts of fact and things about something. And still have zero understanding.
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agreed, I had a good laugh .........
Have another...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWy9dHy4l2M
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I think what a lot of you are missing here is a lot of us 'dissenters' as you call us are not going to say cabling can't make a difference (it can), rather it's some of the ludicrous claims made not only by the manufacturer but by some of the end users as well. Spending some of the absurd amounts of money for receptacles , IC's, speaker wire and power cords (70k for MIT top of the line speaker cables as an example) just proves that insanity is not confined to those already locked up in an institution !
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I think what a lot of you are missing here is a lot of us 'dissenters' as you call us are not going to say cabling can't make a difference (it can), rather it's some of the ludicrous claims made not only by the manufacturer but by some of the end users as well. Spending some of the absurd amounts of money for receptacles , IC's, speaker wire and power cords (70k for MIT top of the line speaker cables as an example) just proves that insanity is not confined to those already locked up in an institution !
I have to agree the believers can go too far. Easily off the deep end. And plenty of the claims of certain manufacturers and sellers puts P.T.Barnum to shame.
That does not change the fact that plenty of folks can hear differences.
And one defense of high priced cables is:Money. If you got it, why should some poor slob who does not have any..matter to you? Does the naysayer go around condemning $250,000 jewelry as it 'is not better; than costum jewelry? Is the Ferrari really just the same as a Ford Focus? After all the both get you from A to B.
If a billionaire decides to have $100,000 worth of cables in his 'modest' system.. Why does it nmatter to anyone else? And if some company caters to that trade?
So many other hidden agendas pop up in these cable arguments. Socialism vs Capitalism, Religion and 'give unto others'.. And just plain greed, and the hatred/jealousy of the well off.
If the notion that folks can and do spend what they feel like is OK, and the thought of stop trying to 'save' the other guy.. Then what is left but a small discussion hardly worth bothering about. Yet the pages and pages of arguing means the topic is burdened with a huge amout of baggage.
Anyway, it is always interesting to read and think about.(mainly FOR the baggage!)
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I think what a lot of you are missing here is a lot of us 'dissenters' as you call us are not going to say cabling can't make a difference (it can), rather it's some of the ludicrous claims made not only by the manufacturer but by some of the end users as well. Spending some of the absurd amounts of money for receptacles , IC's, speaker wire and power cords (70k for MIT top of the line speaker cables as an example) just proves that insanity is not confined to those already locked up in an institution !
Problem with your argument is you do not have any proof whats so ever whether a AC power receptacle can have an impact on the SQ of piece of audio equipment or audio system? You have no practical hands on experience do you?
You don't have to spend big bucks on receptacle to hear a difference in sound from your audio system. just buy an old stock Hubbell HBL8200H (15 amp) or HBL8300H (20 amp) compact/slim body hospital grade duplex receptacle and try it in place of what you are using now.
http://www.hubbellcatalog.com/wiring/catalogpages/H5254.pdf
Here is a 20 amp for $16 free shipping.
https://www.ebay.com/p/Hubbell-HBL8300H-Duplex-Receptacle-Compact-Hospital-Grade-20-Amp-125v-5-20r-Brown/691161867
A red one for $17.50
http://www.ebay.com/itm/HUBBELL-WIRING-HBL8300HR-DUPLEX-RECEPTACLE-5-20R-HOSPITAL-GRADE-20A-125V-RED-/322004114753?epid=1035700407&hash=item4af8f0dd41:g:fOIAAOSwe7BWur2n
Now you have to be careful and make sure you are getting the old stock Hubbell HBL8200H or the HBL8300H hospital grade compact slim body duplex receptacle.
The two listed above are the correct ones.
What to look for.
The electrical contacts inside are non nickel plated brass alloy.
The supporting back strap is non nickel plated brass.
The body of the receptacle is the compact slim design.
Hubbell stopped making this duplex receptacle several years ago. All of Hubbell hospital grade outlets made today have nickel plating on the internal brass allow electrical contacts. Their heavy duty hospital grade outlets have a nickel plated brass back strap. The body is a standard deeper body.
Hubbell makes a cheaper hospital grade compact/slim body that has a galvanized steel supporting back strap. Avoid any electrical outlet that has a steel back strap at all costs. It sucks for audio equipment.
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This won't work in this particular case as the sound changes back and forth. It's so obvious though, it's not subtle at all. I don't need a proper test to tell black from white.
After 400 hours of burn-in on one outlet and a few hours of burn-in at best on the other, I better hear a difference. :scratch:
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Problem with your argument is you do not have any proof whats so ever whether a AC power receptacle can have an impact on the SQ of piece of audio equipment or audio system? You have no practical hands on experience do you?
You don't have to spend big bucks on receptacle to hear a difference in sound from your audio system. just buy an old stock Hubbell HBL8200H (15 amp) or HBL8300H (20 amp) compact/slim body hospital grade duplex receptacle and try it in place of what you are using now.
http://www.hubbellcatalog.com/wiring/catalogpages/H5254.pdf
LOL 'Jr', you quote my post and then clearly show with your post that you either didn't read mine or have no comprehension ability ........
go back and read it again for I said that a difference can in fact occur !
As for 'practical hands on experience' with respect to receptacles, yes I do and I clearly understand their need....... simply an electro-mechanical connection between two pieces of 'wire' with a function of maintaining voltage / current through their connection.
As for the hubbell duplex, I agree and that's what I've been using for many years.
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I think what a lot of you are missing here is a lot of us 'dissenters' as you call us are not going to say cabling can't make a difference (it can), rather it's some of the ludicrous claims made not only by the manufacturer but by some of the end users as well. Spending some of the absurd amounts of money for receptacles , IC's, speaker wire and power cords (70k for MIT top of the line speaker cables as an example) just proves that insanity is not confined to those already locked up in an institution !
They do not expect to sell many of those 70K cables...You think they do?
Maybe some Arab nation oil billionaire just may buy them thinking money can buy happiness.
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Problem with your argument is you do not have any proof whats so ever whether a AC power receptacle can have an impact on the SQ of piece of audio equipment or audio system? You have no practical hands on experience do you?
The problem is that nobody here has any proof. A listening test isn't proof, that's called an opinion as it's not being done scientifically whatsoever. That's fact.
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After 400 hours of burn-in on one outlet and a few hours of burn-in at best on the other, I better hear a difference. :scratch:
I bought a $25 outlet..I figured... "what the hey... let's see what it does." ..
What I hear sounds good. Of course clean connections always sound better.
The main difference is how well the plug now stays solidly in the outlet, and how the one it replaced looked like a piece of flimsy junk in comparison.
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The problem is that nobody here has any proof. A listening test isn't proof, that's called an opinion as it's not being done scientifically whatsoever. That's fact.
A woman who gets a face lift and loses a few pounds is the same woman she was before. But the reaction to her has changed. Sometimes getting something that is simply better made gives the audiophile a better feeling about what he hears. No science needed. Satisfaction of ownership of having something better made effects sound quality in that way. :)
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And one defense of high priced cables is:Money. If you got it, why should some poor slob who does not have any..matter to you? Does the naysayer go around condemning $250,000 jewelry as it 'is not better; than costum jewelry? Is the Ferrari really just the same as a Ford Focus? After all the both get you from A to B.
Yep. And most dissenters aren't heavily invested in a high end audio system. Rarely do you run across someone who has a $20K system complain about other audiophiles who paid too much.
The big challenge with audio is you gotta be open minded and try different stuff out all of the time to see if it works for you. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. That requires constant buying and selling until you reach a saturation point. This process could take many years. Some naysayers aren't willing to invest the time and money to do this, so they have to justify it to themselves by vehemently expressing their lack of knowledge and experience.
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LOL 'Jr', you quote my post and then clearly show with your post that you either didn't read mine or have no comprehension ability ........
go back and read it again for I said that a difference can in fact occur !
As for 'practical hands on experience' with respect to receptacles, yes I do and I clearly understand their need....... simply an electro-mechanical connection between two pieces of 'wire' with a function of maintaining voltage / current through their connection.
As for the hubbell duplex, I agree and that's what I've been using for many years.
LOL,Jr... :D
Well older than dirt fart, lol, maybe I miss understood your post. Lets break it down.
"I think what a lot of you are missing here is a lot of us 'dissenters' as you call us are not going to say cabling can't make a difference (it can), rather it's some of the ludicrous claims made not only by the manufacturer but by some of the end users as well. Spending some of the absurd amounts of money for receptacles , IC's, speaker wire and power cords (70k for MIT top of the line speaker cables as an example) just proves that insanity is not confined to those already locked up in an institution !
"I think what a lot of you are missing here is a lot of us 'dissenters' as you call us are not going to say cabling can't make a difference (it can), rather it's some of the ludicrous claims made not only by the manufacturer but by some of the end users as well.
Well you put yourself in the same camp as a being among the 'dissenters' but then you go on to counter-dict yourself. So is you is or is you ain't?
"Spending some of the absurd amounts of money for receptacles ,"
Who are you to say the price of an outlet is absurd? Nobody is twisting your arm to buy one, are they? Are you jealous that someone else might have the disposable income to buy one if they so choose? How about the guy spends $100K or $200K on an audio system? Do you have a problem with that too?
You have a good day old fart. Thanks for the compliment of calling me Jr. :D :D
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A woman who gets a face lift and loses a few pounds is the same woman she was before. But the reaction to her has changed. Sometimes getting something that is simply better made gives the audiophile a better feeling about what he hears. No science needed. Satisfaction of ownership of having something better made effects sound quality in that way. :)
And this is perfectly fine, but it's also scientific. Lots of studies have been done on this. Remember -- audio is a perceptual and emotional endeavor. In fact, a significant amount of the cost associated with building high end audio is purely aesthetics.
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The problem is that nobody here has any proof. A listening test isn't proof, that's called an opinion as it's not being done scientifically whatsoever. That's fact.
That is what self righteous scientists who want to control other peoples lives will tell you. The Beatles were rejected by some record companies until someone with the ears for talent went with them. It was always there. Some things? We can hear for ourselves.
Science is not to tell us we are imagining things because they have not found the means to explain what is going on. That's a form of tyranny.... When audio is for the hearing.
If an amplifier with a higher level of a certain measured distortion sounds superior to another component with lower distortion in that area? And, science can only make assumptions based on things known to measure? Where does that leave you?
I can remember back in the 70's all the frustrating BS I had to endure when the measurements came out to show me that my tube amp should not sound as good as a more powerful SS Crown amp. The scientific measurements won. But, my ears determined the real winner.
Science can becomes hated by those who have ears to hear. Be careful not to alienate people from science with self righteousness. After all... its science that has given us GMO foods. Careful. Science is a means. Its not intrinsically a virtue in itself as some seem to think.
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LOL,Jr... :D
Well older than dirt fart, lol, maybe I miss understood your post. Lets break it down.
"I think what a lot of you are missing here is a lot of us 'dissenters' as you call us are not going to say cabling can't make a difference (it can), rather it's some of the ludicrous claims made not only by the manufacturer but by some of the end users as well. Spending some of the absurd amounts of money for receptacles , IC's, speaker wire and power cords (70k for MIT top of the line speaker cables as an example) just proves that insanity is not confined to those already locked up in an institution !
"I think what a lot of you are missing here is a lot of us 'dissenters' as you call us are not going to say cabling can't make a difference (it can), rather it's some of the ludicrous claims made not only by the manufacturer but by some of the end users as well.
Well you put yourself in the same camp as a being among the 'dissenters' but then you go on to counter-dict yourself. So is you is or is you ain't?
"Spending some of the absurd amounts of money for receptacles ,"
Who are you to say the price of an outlet is absurd? Nobody is twisting your arm to buy one, are they? Are you jealous that someone else might have the disposable income to buy one if they so choose? How about the guy spends $100K or $200K on an audio system? Do you have a problem with that too?
You have a good day old fart. Thanks for the compliment of calling me Jr. :D :D
100k for an audio system, hell that's just 'middle of the road' !
as for the 'Jr' .......check out below your jea48 !
with respect to 'dissenter', yeah I thinks it's nuts to buy an expensive duplex and expect it to need to burn in (pure BS) for 400 hrs. and them expect to hear a difference ? Given the subtle difference that could possibly be heard there is no way one could discern that with a 400 hr gap in time !
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And this is perfectly fine, but it's also scientific. Lots of studies have been done on this. Remember -- audio is a perceptual and emotional endeavor. In fact, a significant amount of the cost associated with building high end audio is purely aesthetics.
Dam! lol! There is even a science to make everything appear to be under the governance of science?
Can science explain why someone paints as an artist, and another artist finds himself playing a musical instrument?
Science is a tool. Not everything. Just because a scientist expresses his opinion, does not make what he claims to be scientific... though he may try to make it sound that way. In some cases intuition is superior to science. But it takes knowledge gained from science at times before the intuition is manifested. And, many things were invented in the lab by mistakes made.
Science can measure hormone levels when someone kisses another they love. But, the love/desire must precede the kiss.
Why do we love music? Can science measure the reason why not all people love music? Or measure why some love jazz? Classical?
Science in the hands of an egomaniac is a dangerous tool. Envious scientists can build rationales to try to destroy the happiness of those they envy. Can science measure why some people have much envy, and others do not?
Science is a tool. Not a master. A very helpful tool ..as long as it does not try to become your master. It becomes a secular religion for the domination of men when science does not end up being seen as a tool. My ears hear better sound.
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100k for an audio system, hell that's just 'middle of the road' !
as for the 'Jr' .......check out below your jea48 !
with respect to 'dissenter', yeah I thinks it's nuts to buy an expensive duplex and expect it to need to burn in (pure BS) for 400 hrs. and them expect to hear a difference ? Given the subtle difference that could possibly be heard there is no way one could discern that with a 400 hr gap in time !
There are poor people in this world who can not afford the system you have. Should you be denied because they can not afford it?
Some audio manufacturers make equipment for very wealthy people as well. It would be stupid not to. But, buyer beware. Because some wealthy are the ones that can easily be sold BS... because the pampered ones are too lazy to study the hobby and only think the most expensive must be the best. Let them lose, and have their delusion. You find what will make you happy and not worry about what you do not have. Unethical marketing preys on the thought that we think we do not have the best. And, some wealthy people love being envied. C'est la vie! :D
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Science is a tool. Not a master. A very helpful tool ..as long as it does not try to become your master. It becomes a secular religion for the domination of men when science does not end up being seen as a tool.
+1, Science becomes just like religion for the dogmatic and closed-minded who usually fancy themselves "experts".
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Dam! lol! There is even a science to make everything appear to be under the governance of science?
Can science explain why someone paints as an artist, and another artist finds himself playing a musical instrument?
Science is a tool. Not everything. Just because a scientist expresses his opinion, does not make what he claims to be scientific... though he may try to make it sound that way. In some cases intuition is superior to science. But it takes knowledge gained from science at times before the intuition is manifested. And, many things were invented in the lab by mistakes made.
Science can measure hormone levels when someone kisses another they love. But, the love/desire must precede the kiss.
Why do we love music? Can science measure the reason why not all people love music? Or measure why some love jazz? Classical?
Science in the hands of an egomaniac is a dangerous tool. Envious scientists can build rationales to try to destroy the happiness of those they envy. Can science measure why some people have much envy, and others do not?
Science is a tool. Not a master. A very helpful tool ..as long as it does not try to become your master. It becomes a secular religion for the domination of men when science does not end up being seen as a tool. My ears hear better sound.
Science simply means, "to know." Science is based on facts, reasoning and experimentation. In audio, the concept of "science" is fraught with difficulties because audio is largely subjective. Nevertheless, there's an experimentation element in audio that's critical to getting the best sound. So I listen to people on this forum who have more experience in experimenting than I do such as DaveC113. That's how I discovered the value of using high end receptacles. And it doesn't take 400 hours of burn-in to figure it out. If the improvements aren't immediate or take only a few hours to hear, I move on.
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There are poor people in this world who can not afford the system you have.
give me their addresses I'll send them one ! ............ :wink:
seriously though, I was just being a 'smart azz' ! But in the world of 'high end' audio, 100k is in fact 'middle of the road' these days !
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give me their addresses I'll send them one ! ............ :wink:
seriously though, I was just being a 'smart azz' ! But in the world of 'high end' audio, 100k is in fact 'middle of the road' these days !
I try to buy used when I can... Two reasons. Already burned in. And, being sold for what I can afford.
And, some of the smartest audiophiles I have had contact with are wealthy. They are the movers that will cause us to benefit ten years after they do, as the technology finally trickles down to us.
So, there is a balance.
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100k for an audio system, hell that's just 'middle of the road' !
as for the 'Jr' .......check out below your jea48 !
with respect to 'dissenter', yeah I thinks it's nuts to buy an expensive duplex and expect it to need to burn in (pure BS) for 400 hrs. and them expect to hear a difference ? Given the subtle difference that could possibly be heard there is no way one could discern that with a 400 hr gap in time !
Any one who believes that it takes 400 hours for a outlet to burn in, to hear the sound quality is not an audiophile ,but a hobbyist !
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Seeking user experiences. Most claim that there is a "burn in" period (100 to 400 hrs) for AC receptacles, a sonic roller-coaster during that period if you will. Usually starts off somewhat muffled and veiled...then it starts to open up. Bass fills in etc etc.
Has anyone experienced somewhat the reverse? Starts off somewhat aggressive and brightish....gets progressively brightish whilst opening up...then it settles down...gets more musical, fuller and more relaxed/smooth especially in the upper mids on up.
I have the Furutech GTX D (g). Your experiences on any brand would be most welcomed as well. Thanks.
I have an opinion on whether or not anyone can hear a new outlet vs. a burned-in outlet, but I didn't post because clearly the OP was looking for people with experience.
Obviously the OP believes he has heard his outlet's sound change as it breaks in.
There are thousands of opportunities on the internet to give opinions when it wasn't asked for or wanted. My question is, "Why bother?"
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100k for an audio system, hell that's just 'middle of the road' !
as for the 'Jr' .......check out below your jea48 !
with respect to 'dissenter', yeah I thinks it's nuts to buy an expensive duplex and expect it to need to burn in (pure BS) for 400 hrs. and them expect to hear a difference ? Given the subtle difference that could possibly be heard there is no way one could discern that with a 400 hr gap in time !
as for the 'Jr' .......check out below your jea48 !
LOL, measured by the number of posts on this forum. :duh: You're kidding right.
My is bigger than yours. I registered here on AC before you did, jr. :lol: :lol: :lol:
with respect to 'dissenter', yeah I thinks it's nuts to buy an expensive duplex and expect it to need to burn in (pure BS) for 400 hrs.
Says you.
400 hours was an arbitrary number, but if you had taken anytime to research the Furutech GTX R outlet you would have found those that bought them said it takes for ever to burn-in the Rhodium plated current carrying contacts. And yes some reported several hundred hours. One reason many said to pay the extra few bucks to have them burned-in by the retail seller.
Takes a long, long, long, long time.
https://www.google.com/#q=how+many+hours+does+it+take+to+burn-in+a+Furutech+GTX+R+outlet?
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Depending upon the utility company the sound of my system can be changed several times a day. It may also depend on what the streaming channel is sending out at any given time of day. Its not burning in when the differences can be heard. But, differences can be heard.
Burning in can be heard. But not on all components. I placed a modest audiophile fuse in a preamp the other day and there was "instant burn in." (it sounded better).
Interconnects,,, power cords.... and mostly components will reveal burning in. Some do not take as long as others. One new component simply needed to be left on over night and the sound changed in a beautiful way. Cold out of the box I was wondering if I had made a mistake.
The biggest evidence was with speakers. Its not just mechanical what is happening when breaking in, but its a major part of it. For I have replaced internal wiring with already broken in speakers and heard the new cables burning in for a while.
Science will finally figure it out someday...
Probably at the time that someone will have invented a way to play portions of air in our rooms instead of speakers.
(just don't walk into that zone! Keep cats and dogs away when playing!) :lol:
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400 hours was an arbitrary number, but if you had taken anytime to research the Furutech GTX R outlet you would have found those that bought them said it takes for ever to burn the Rhodium plated current carrying contacts in. And yes some reported several hundred hours. One reason many said to pay the extra few bucks to have them burned-in by the retail seller.
Takes a long, long, long, long time.
https://www.google.com/#q=how+many+hours+does+it+take+to+burn-in+a+Furutech+GTX+R+outlet?
enjoy your 'Kool Aid' !! ........ :lol:
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Says you.
400 hours was an arbitrary number, but if you had taken anytime to research the Furutech GTX R outlet you would have found those that bought them said it takes for ever to burn the Rhodium plated current carrying contacts in. And yes some reported several hundred hours. One reason many said to pay the extra few bucks to have them burned-in by the retail seller.
Takes a long, long, long, long time.
https://www.google.com/#q=how+many+hours+does+it+take+to+burn-in+a+Furutech+GTX+R+outlet?
Keep in mind. To burn in an outlet for 400 hours it only means having something plugged in for about 16 days. Leave your equipment on 24/7? @24 hours in a day? Just over two weeks. Right? Not long at all.... (400 hours in perspective)
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Keep in mind. To burn in an outlet for 400 hours it only means having something plugged in for about 16 days. Leave your equipment on 24/7? @24 hours in a day? Just over two weeks. Right? Not long at all.... (400 hours in perspective)
That's what I did during that period and normally do. I leave my gear on 24/7. The converters, computer, transports/players, Class D amps.
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I have no clue how a listener after 100 to 400 hours, could weed out the small change in sound from a receptacle with so many uncontrolled variables causing large changes.
LOL, I decided to read this old thread for a laugh, you are so right ! 'receptacle burn in' ........now I've heard it all !!
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LOL, I decided to read this old thread for a laugh, you are so right ! 'receptacle burn in' ........now I've heard it all !!
Apparently.... you can not hear it at all. :green:
If your system allows you to hear the burn in process, sometimes a new receptacle will need some burn in. I believe someday a scientist will learn what takes place on the microscopic atomic level. I am right now burning in a new piece of equipment and its sound has changed very noticeably over the last four days of constantly being turned on. And, my NuPrime ST-10 amp sounded not so good out of the box. But leaving it on for a few days changed its sound considerably.
I wonder why some do hear what takes place, and others do not. The only way to find out, would be to see how they have their systems set up. That might solve this controversy.
I have had systems where I would not have heard equipment burning in. I am wondering if that may be the case for the naysayers.
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Here we go.... interesting read from the Steve Hoffman forum..
http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/does-all-new-audio-equipment-need-a-burn-in-period.92735/#post-2040158
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Had the opposite...
An orange faceHospital receptacle I installed..
Well after a few months I was wondering what was wrong..
I took the receptical out and replaced it with a regular one.
KABOOM. great sound was back
I broke open the odd sounding receptacle, and it had some sort of oil in it.
(I guess to repress sparking?) Anyway. It certainly is possible to hear an outlet.
LOL.
When I mentioned it on a website at the time. Other folks chimed in with the same problem with that brand and type of receptacle
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....................................................
If your system allows you to hear the burn in process, sometimes a new receptacle will need some burn in. I believe someday a scientist will learn what takes place on the microscopic atomic level. I am right now burning in a new piece of equipment and its sound has changed very noticeably over the last four days of constantly being turned on. And, my NuPrime ST-10 amp sounded not so good out of the box. But leaving it on for a few days changed its sound considerably.
....................................... ..............
I have had systems where I would not have heard equipment burning in. I am wondering if that may be the case for the naysayers.
Right now, scientists & engineers can measure changes and differences orders of magnitude smaller than anything in hi-fi.
Anything that changes will matter more in sensitive medical, scientific and engineering circuits, than in hi-fi.
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There's enough heat and smoke on this thread to cook a whole school of red herrings. Meanwhile, the light is so dim I'm not sure how anyone can tell how much ad hominem sauce they're squirting onto their fillets.
It's so easy to lay something like this to rest. Install two identical receptacles behind your stereo rig. Plug in to one of them and run your rig that way for a month or two while running nothing on the other receptacle.
Then invite your audio buddies over, unplug everything, clean all contacts carefully, and spend an evening setting up and conducting any experiment you like – double blind, single blind, etc.
Right there behind your stereo is a burnt in receptacle and a non-burnt in receptacle.
No more red herrings. No more personal attacks. Just listening and learning.
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Again my challenge. I have a PIAudio Digibuss with a Voodoo all copper cryo treated receptacle and a Furutech GTX Rhodium installed. One can easily discern a difference when compared directly. Last time I offered this nobody came except my audio buddies who were impressed with demo and now understand the difference heard. Wonder why ?? Afraid to learn or admit your just wrong ??
After awhile with so many subjective opinions of they sound different would that not be enough for science to start testing of such ?
charles
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There's enough heat and smoke on this thread to cook a whole school of red herrings. Meanwhile, the light is so dim I'm not sure how anyone can tell how much ad hominem sauce they're squirting onto their fillets.
It's so easy to lay something like this to rest. Install two identical receptacles behind your stereo rig. Plug in to one of them and run your rig that way for a month or two while running nothing on the other receptacle.
Then invite your audio buddies over, unplug everything, clean all contacts carefully, and spend an evening setting up and conducting any experiment you like – double blind, single blind, etc.
Right there behind your stereo is a burnt in receptacle and a non-burnt in receptacle.
No more red herrings. No more personal attacks. Just listening and learning.
An audio system is like a marriage... If you have a sensitivity born by love you will notice small changes in your spouse. If you married for utilitarian purposes? Marriage will only serve a practical purpose and you will become dull to the other once the novelty wears off. Some marry for prestige. Like that high end system is for those who buy for the love of their self esteem... Some marry to be like others around them who are getting married, and get what is commonly accepted because you must have one too. And, some marry because of a love that will grow over time. They understand burn in... Burn in? "Hah!... a wife is for this, or that.... you know. What's the big deal? Just get spend enough money on an expensive system considered a good system, and be happy with it." :wink:
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Again my challenge. I have a PIAudio Digibuss with a Voodoo all copper cryo treated receptacle and a Furutech GTX Rhodium installed. One can easily discern a difference when compared directly. Last time I offered this nobody came except my audio buddies who were impressed with demo and now understand the difference heard. Wonder why ?? Afraid to learn or admit your just wrong ??
After awhile with so many subjective opinions of they sound different would that not be enough for science to start testing of such ?
charles
I don't think this thread is about whether better receptacles improve sound. It's about whether a receptacle sounds better after "burn in."
A ridiculously easy way to test the assertion is to install two identical receptacles behind your rig, "burn in" one as long as you like while leaving the other one unused, and then doing controlled listening tests comparing the two.
Same could/should also be done with completely different receptacles, but the burn-in assertion is the one put forth here so the tests would need to be between otherwise identical receptacles, one a virgin to plugs and the other well-used.
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Hey! The world is flat! Just look around you!~ Now go back in your hut and be quiet! :surrender:
Because? If I can't hear it! YOU can't hear it!
Don't be naive with them. :nono:
They will never "listen."
Baseball legend Ted Williams had such keen eyesight he used to be able to actually see the seams of a baseball that was being pitched to him. Was he imagining things? Some will say its obviously untrue because they can not.
Meaning? Some can hear things that others can not.
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I don't think this thread is about whether better receptacles improve sound. It's about whether a receptacle sounds better after "burn in."
A ridiculously easy way to test the assertion is to install two identical receptacles behind your rig, "burn in" one as long as you like while leaving the other one unused, and then doing controlled listening tests comparing the two.
Same could/should also be done with completely different receptacles, but the burn-in assertion is the one put forth here so the tests would need to be between otherwise identical receptacles, one a virgin to plugs and the other well-used.
Yes agreed. However I did that first. Had one broken in and one not. Just offering the point that different ones sound different not better.
charles
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Some can hear things that others can not.
Well duh.
So "burn in" one receptacle, leave another identical receptacle beside it virgin, invite folks over, and make controlled comparisons. Let science confirm what you think you're hearing.
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Well duh.
So "burn in" one receptacle, leave another identical receptacle beside it virgin, invite folks over, and make controlled comparisons. Let science confirm what you think you're hearing.
It all depends on the system... and if they have ears like you. Seriously.... there is a major rift in audio between the two camps. There must be a reason for it. Those who do not hear anything dismiss it as an aberration and delusion of those who do, because they know there exists suggestible people in this world. Its an insult to astute audiophiles when that tact is pulled in ego-defense by the ones who just simply do not have that gift to hear that way.
Do all people like classical music? No. Do those who do not like it find themselves unable to hear it? No. They just do not connect. Yet its there just the same.
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I don't know if I hear it. All I know is that mine must be burned in by now after many years. :thumb:
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I wonder what the almost 1 billion people who don't have access to enough food to maintain proper health would have to say about this argument. They likely don't have internet access either, so we're unlikely to hear from them.
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Science can measure hormones but it can't measure love.
Audiophiles who love their systems hear better than folks who don't feel the same affection for their gear.
Some people don't like classical music and some do.
Therefore, suggesting controlled comparisons as a way to test whether AC receptacles can actually "burn in" makes me either deaf or in need of a good audio system or both.
Makes sense to me.
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In what year was the condition color blindness discovered? 1794. Up until then? Was anyone color blind?
There may be something going on right now that we should not be fighting over...
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I'm not fighting over anything. I'm just pleading for clear thinking free of fallacy, and for being willing to put subjective perceptions to the test.
It would be so cool to do the test on my system. My amp will play music for about 20 seconds UNPLUGGED so you could switch receptacles without interrupting the music at all.
At my house I could install two identical receptacles, burn one in for two or three months while leaving the other alone, then have folks over to listen while, behind a screen, I could switch back and forth between receptacles without anyone knowing when or whether. If the burn in is real the folks over for the test would find themselves saying, "OK, now that just got better," and, "Wait, it's blurred (or grainy, or harsh, or whatever) now." And I would be back behind the screen plugging and unplugging and taking notes.
What could possibly be objectionable about such a session? What could possibly be the problem with putting "receptacle burn in" theory to such a test?
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Audiophiles who love their systems hear better than folks who don't feel the same affection for their gear.
Similar thing with automobiles.
Some people by their design simply want a "utility" vehicle that gets them from point A to point B. Some car manufacturers even design cars specifically for such a person. Others want to feel connected to the road when they drive.
Will both like, or notice, the same things when test driving a vehicle? No. Likewise? For those who do, and do not, discern breaking in a component?
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I'm not fighting over anything. I'm just pleading for clear thinking free of fallacy, and for being willing to put subjective perceptions to the test.
It would be so cool to do the test on my system. My amp will play music for about 20 seconds UNPLUGGED so you could switch receptacles without interrupting the music at all.
At my house I could install two identical receptacles, burn one in for two or three months while leaving the other alone, then have folks over to listen while, behind a screen, I could switch back and forth between receptacles without anyone knowing when or whether. If the burn in is real the folks over for the test would find themselves saying, "OK, now that just got better," and, "Wait, it's blurred (or grainy, or harsh, or whatever) now." And I would be back behind the screen plugging and unplugging and taking notes.
What could possibly be objectionable about such a session? What could possibly be the problem with putting "receptacle burn in" theory to such a test?
I do not want to even talk about receptacles. I did once take the plunge and got a modest level (about 25.00) audiophile high grade receptacle. It was definitely better made than the typical inexpensive types which are flimsy in comparison.
Why did I do it? Because I had already witnessed to noticeable improvements with power cords. And, with better fuses. So.. It seemed logical to give it a try.
With the receptacle? I can not say I noticed anything...
Well.. I got it. So now it stays in the wall. Definitely not getting another one.
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I do not want to even talk about receptacles.
Then I suggest you read the title of this thread and take your musings elsewhere. What a strange thing to write after posting so many comments on a thread dedicated to questions about receptacles.
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Then I suggest you read the title of this thread and take your musings elsewhere. What a strange thing to write after posting so many comments on a thread dedicated to questions about receptacles.
I so often see naysayers speaking about those who think burn in is a delusion that I got caught up wrongly. OK...
and, to be fair.. Now that I thought about it.. ... It might just be that I heard no major difference with a receptacle in my case because all my system runs through an Audience Adept Response conditioner.
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There ARE nice $4 receptacles ...
I have used and like Pass & Seymour heavy duty receptacles.
They grip well, and maintain that grip for many years. In fact some are still in my system.
On the audiophile level ($40) are (I own 2) Acme silver plated. And those cryoed Hubble
sold on Audiogon.
I would just say if you do not own aftermarket powercords.. It is hard to think of aftermarket Duplex AC as mattering.
And then the real test is: If you can't hear it, Does it matter to you???
And then the famous: "if you can't hear NO ONE ELSE CAN EITHER" fallacy.
And I have to say it took me many years and a LOT more money invested in my stereo before I could hear a lot of this stuff. When I jumped from $1K or $2K a pop to $5K a pop for components. yeah it became a lot easier to hear trivial stuff like IC and powercords.. (though I confess I have not really bothered to check if I CAN actually hear differences in outlets. IC yeah. powercords yeah.. So I am old and lazy. Too lazy to test myself with outlets.
Though I can say Leviton outlets are worthless crap.