[Early B.]

No chit Sherlock, but if you feel you can discern 500 hrs tube use in your Rogues I say ........... BS !! If you read my post you know that I also have a respectable SS amp (Plinius SA-102) so I know full well of the differences, as for the Rogues they are a piece of cake to maintain, if you had problems then either your amps were at fault or you were ......... I suspect the latter  ......

Relax, dude, 500 hours was just a hypothetical number. The point was that tubes deteriorate over time, and for each tube, it's unpredictable whether they will last or not. That's a fact. And I never said I had mechanical problems with my Rogue tube monos. It's the fragile tubes themselves that will eventually present a problem for virtually any tube amp. That's why richidoo suggested having spare tubes on hand. 

[FullRangeMan]

Relax, dude, 500 hours was just a hypothetical number. The point was that tubes deteriorate over time, and for each tube, it's unpredictable whether they will last or not. That's a fact. And I never said I had mechanical problems with my Rogue tube monos. It's the fragile tubes themselves that will eventually present a problem for virtually any tube amp. That's why richidoo suggested having spare tubes on hand.

What brand were these? US NOS or sino tubes?
These number you mentioned was very in line w/the sino big Triodes lasts without softstart.

[Sumokitty]

Thanks for all the replies. I have not personally powered them on yet. Plan on warming them up slowly on a variac to make sure I don't release the magic smoke. I was posting in this circle because I was wondering if there were any mods for increased stability and reliability. I've only seen someone mention a mod that allows the usage of el509 tubes which seem more common.

[FullRangeMan]

OTLs are difficult to built and repair, make sure your tube tech is a expert in this amp, but I rec dont modify this amp.
If the amp was a bad choice you would sell it now, before expend more $ and buy a less hot amp.
Just a 2 cents.

[Sumokitty]

I have 2.i was planning on bi amping. I didn't expect such a drop in reliability from my push pull amp that I was using with my la scalas.

[bacobits1]

As far as I know Michael Elliott did all the designing on Counterpoints also offered expensive mods to fix things through Alta Vista Audio after Counterpoints demise, now gone so is Elliott.
I have also read Roger Modjeski designed those particular amps.

Now caution! Good advice never leave unattended especially Counterpoint had a lot of dependability issues which caused them to eventually go under.
I had an SA20 go sparks and smoke 2x, left channel then 6 months later the right. A pain in the ass shipping a 70+  Ib  amp to California The damn thing did not trip a breaker!!  The SA20 was upgraded to a SA220 protection circuit. Then had a 5.1 pre and had a shunted trannie. Both fixed, got rid of them. Immediately.
Did they sound good? Yup, not worth it!
That was them and back in the 80s I would not worry about the new stuff out there now so much.
Just my experiences with Counterpoint

Good luck!

[sfox7076]

I have seen the schematics for that amp.  It looks like a bit of a mess inside.  I would have the tech change the caps before it even gets turned on, unless the caps are really high end (blackgate, etc.). 

[Freo-1]

I have seen the schematics for that amp.  It looks like a bit of a mess inside.  I would have the tech change the caps before it even gets turned on, unless the caps are really high end (blackgate, etc.).

Agree.  The electrolytic power supply caps would be my first move from a safety standpoint, as well as any semi conductor devices.


The coupling caps should not cause any safety/reliability issues, BUT, changing them out will likely help out with the overall playback. 


Once that is achieved, should be safe to play them.  None of us can say how reliable the amps will be over time.  You'll just have to see for yourself.  As long as the parts are changed out by a good tech, the amp should be OK for some time. 

[Sumokitty]

I will make sure caps get checked. I really love the look and the size of the SA 4s, but now I really am thinking it may have been a mistake to purchase them. Right now I am looking at 2 options in my mind which bring up questions for each. One is, how much are these amps actually worth. And the second option and question would be, could I cannibalize the insides to make it into a ZOTL amp, which would be far more stable and something I would be more comfortable playing. Before these I was running a simple RCA push pull amp that used EL34s. My speakers were very efficient so their low power was not a big deal at all. I guess getting these before sitting down to really read about them is my mistake, but the way they look and power output were very intriguing. I really appreciate all the discussion.

[FullRangeMan]

For a ZOTL transformation maybe you can save the SA4 chassis.
Look inside the ZOTL photos on web and you will see it impossible.
You luck Bacobits warn you;

[Sumokitty]

Hmm then maybe I should get out while I still can. The only thing I have found for a pricepoint is a pair that sold in Japan for 2250 earlier this year. Sound about right?

[poseidonsvoice]

Hmm then maybe I should get out while I still can. The only thing I have found for a pricepoint is a pair that sold in Japan for 2250 earlier this year. Sound about right?

I guess you have already seen this listing:

https://www.hifishark.com/model/counterpoint-sa-4

Should give you an idea.

At least there seems to be a following in Japan.

This amp hailed from 1983-1984 and was considerably more expensive back then:

http://audio-database.com/COUNTERPOINT/amp/sa-4-e.html

Best,
Anand.

[sunnydaze]

On that same hifishark link, click on "sold/expired" for historical info.   Prices are all over the map, mostly in Japan.   Keep in mind these are ask prices, not transacted prices.

Buyers determine prices, not sellers.  The "correct"  price is what a buyer is willing to pay.  With this old gear, that will be tough to know upfront.

[Sumokitty]

I found an actual auction on yahoo japan auctions and it did complete with bids at 250k yen. Honestly if I got 2k I would be more than happy, but this thread has certainly cast OTL amps in a different light for me.

[FullRangeMan]

These sales offers at Shark site were all expired, no one was sold.

[sunnydaze]

Keep in mind these are ask prices, not transacted prices.

Correction:   it could be a mix of actual completed auction transaction prices, and ask / starting bid prices for "unsold".
You'd have to open each one to see the detail, which I didn't do.

[steve in jersey]

Thanks for all the replies. I have not personally powered them on yet. Plan on warming them up slowly on a variac to make sure I don't release the magic smoke. I was posting in this circle because I was wondering if there were any mods for increased stability and reliability. I've only seen someone mention a mod that allows the usage of el509 tubes which seem more common.

So Sumokitty, do you normally assume the "Chicken Little" attitude of "The sky is falling" everyday before you've even bothered to look at the sky ?

To all of you who responded before you even knew whether the OP was actually having a difficulty of some manner, I have one question for you. Have you ever heard that saying about why it's basically a waste of time to "assume" anything ? He,he,he.... probably not !

Ok ! Everyone can go back to trying to find the best route to take for going around a circle (It's really not a requirement to take this website's name literally;Unless of course you have nothing else to do)

[poseidonsvoice]

I'm wondering if this thread can be moved, perhaps the Tubeophile forum as there is really nothing here at this point that warrants it being in the Lab forum.

Best,
Anand.

[Rusty Jefferson]

......And the second option and question would be, could I cannibalize the insides to make it into a ZOTL amp, which would be far more stable and something I would be more comfortable playing.

No, you can not change it to ZOTL. 

....... but this thread has certainly cast OTL amps in a different light for me.

There is no reason to be put off by OTL. All technology improves with time. New solid state amplifier designs are superior and safer to those designed in the 70s-80s. OTL amps will fit into some systems well and others not, just like transformer coupled tube amps, or solid state.  They're just different.  Plenty out there to read about them. Good luck.

[Sumokitty]

So Sumokitty, do you normally assume the "Chicken Little" attitude of "The sky is falling" everyday before you've even bothered to look at the sky ?

To all of you who responded before you even knew whether the OP was actually having a difficulty of some manner, I have one question for you. Have you ever heard that saying about why it's basically a waste of time to "assume" anything ? He,he,he.... probably not !

Ok ! Everyone can go back to trying to find the best route to take for going around a circle (It's really not a requirement to take this website's name literally;Unless of course you have nothing else to do)

You know the saying, expect the worst, hope for the best. Right now the expectation is that when I turn them on I will release the magic smoke, all 8 tubes in each amp will explode, and I will start a fire. Besides, I was hoping to use these in my main system and OTLs do not seem reliable enough to be used that often. I posted in here hoping that there would be some simple steps to gain reliability/reduce heat.