AudioCircle
Music and Media => The Classical Music Circle => Topic started by: Paul_Bui on 14 Jun 2009, 04:36 pm
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I've found out recently that my speakers (and probably my overall setup) is good for listening to jazz music: warm, tuneful bass, big image of performers when recordings allowed. But beyond that, listening to classical music is not of the same quality and enjoyment. I think the current speakers FTA2000s contribute to that character.
Any ideas for a more suitable speaker to classical music? Thanks in advance.
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You really need big speakers, with a lot of drivers, to do justice to classical music, IMO. The big VMPS speakers are spectacular with classical. Other's to consider are line arrays (such as from Selah Audio).
Where in most music you need something capable of reproducing four or five people, in classical you have to reproduce dozens of people playing a variety of instruments. Scale, tone, subtle dynamic gradations, all are very important, and no small speaker will every get you all the way there.
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Linkwitz Orions... about as close to the real performance as your source will allow. IME, this is true across a wide range of musical styles, but whether it's piano, string quartets, voice, huge orchestra and chorus, the Orions do classical extremely well.
If you want pipe organ at realistic levels, you might eventually add Thor subwoofers, but many (like me) are happy with the bass capability of the standard Orions.
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/index.html (http://www.linkwitzlab.com/index.html)
Good luck with your quest,
Peter
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VMPS speakers do justice to all kinds of music. :)
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Linkwitz Orions... about as close to the real performance as your source will allow. IME, this is true across a wide range of musical styles, but whether it's piano, string quartets, voice, huge orchestra and chorus, the Orions do classical extremely well.
If you want pipe organ at realistic levels, you might eventually add Thor subwoofers, but many (like me) are happy with the bass capability of the standard Orions.
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/index.html (http://www.linkwitzlab.com/index.html)
Good luck with your quest,
Peter
Thank you Peter for letting me know about the Orion and the Linkwitz Lab speakers. Wood Artistry is about 109 miles North of my home town, so perhaps I will be in contact with them for an audition. However, I might be interested in something other than the ATI amplification to drive the speakers. OTOH, I kinda like reading their crossover section where there's discussion about Duelund xover. Recently, I've had the opportunity to experiment with Duelund crossover components (resistors alone) and really am impressed at the sonic improvements they have brought to my current speakers.
My curiosity, what electronics are you using with those speakers in order to get such a satisfying performance?
Thanks.
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You really need big speakers, with a lot of drivers, to do justice to classical music, IMO. The big VMPS speakers are spectacular with classical. Other's to consider are line arrays (such as from Selah Audio).
Where in most music you need something capable of reproducing four or five people, in classical you have to reproduce dozens of people playing a variety of instruments. Scale, tone, subtle dynamic gradations, all are very important, and no small speaker will every get you all the way there.
Thanks Tyson and Scott for sharing your opinions. Where can I start looking at those speakers for auditioning and/or purchasing? What amplification would be a better choice to drive them with decent result?
Thanks.
P.S. I'm using a SinglePower MPX3 as tube preamp driving the AudioSector Patek SE. While the amp is adequate for the Fostex F200A drivers, I am sure a more powerful amp would better serve those multi-driver speakers that you recommended.
P.S. #2 I was looking at the VMPS web site and found some pointers to places I can start the search for VMPS speakers.
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Paul,
There are lots of VMPS owners in CA who would probably let you listen to theirs. John Casler is a good person to contact for more info.
Scott
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Hi Paul,
I agree with you about the ATI amps... although when I first auditioned the Orions the guy had the ATIs and the speaker sounded impressive.
However, I've done a lot of amp and preamp tweaking, and I've grown increasingly satisfied as I've worked on my equipment.
My amps are all Aspen (Hugh Dean, on this forum). For the tweeters I'm using two channels of Aspen Life Force 25 (LF55 with lower voltage rails, "Platinum" mods, and a few additional mods recommended by Hugh), LF55s on the mids (Mundorf Silver/Oil input caps), and four channels of AKSA 100N+ on the woofers. My preamp is an Aspen GK-1 (Platinum mods plus a few). My DAC is an Audiosector NOS-SPDIF.
There are a number of Aspen + Orion threads on the Aspen forum; lots of good discussion there.
I'm currently on an assignment about 300 miles from home, so I won't get to listen (or tweak) much until mid-August, but I think the first thing on the agenda is to (1) put a nice Mundorf Silver/Oil on the GK-1 input and then (2) remove the output caps from the Audiosector DAC (these are Black Gate NFs, but maybe no cap at all would sound better).
I didn't intend to hijack this thread and turn it into a tweaking disucssion. I just wanted to make the point that I've done a lot of work on my system, have a lot of work left to do, and I'm very, very happy with the Orions.
All the best,
Peter
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Hi Paul,
I do listen to classical and vocal.
Over the years I have used Triad and would probably suggest to audition the Silver or Gold Monitors. You could get away with 2 and a sub for starters. You can take a look at the specks at: www.triadspeakers.com
They have recently come out with a new line of subs.
Carl
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You really need big speakers
Yes, there's nothing like big speakers when it comes to classical.
(http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/1050/mg20101.jpg) (http://img197.imageshack.us/i/mg20101.jpg/)
Try something by Magnepan (http://www.magnepan.com/magneplanar_technology). They move a tremendous amount of air, and properly set up they present a huge life like soundstage which is second to none for classical.
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I've had similar experiences with single driver speakers, I loved mine (Cain & Cain Abbys, probably under-driven with a 2A3 amp) but I went back to bi-amped boxes. I do believe that single drivers just can't handle larger forces. Horns are a different and more complicated beast, so you could have it all - with a significant increase in size and expense.
For Amps, I'd look at Mosfets. Audio by Van Alstine on the circles, often compared to my favorite MOSFET amps by Nagra and Moscode.
I've heard Reference 3A speakers and would love to hear the top of the line. VMPS does have a great system for multi amping, but I have not heard them (yet) - there are a lot of good speakers that might fit the bill - but please stay away from the typical audiophile laser-accurate detail speakers. Warmth and musicality will mean a loss of detail, but it's worth the trade off. That said, bi-amping my old Audio Physic Tempos gave me greater detail and better extension than my Abbys provided. You can't replace the "more than real" aspect to the SET/single driver sound, but I decided that rhythmic drive and dynamics were more important.
All of this done right should work for all music, Dizzy's big band has much more snap and fire now.
Gregg
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The new 3-way/3-driver Salk HT4's are praised for their abilty to reproduce large orchestras. I have not heard them yet, but my songtowers are good for medium size groups providing great localization and micro and macro dynamics. The AVA electronics improved all of this dramatically!
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What is your price range for the speakers? What is it you're missing with your current speakers? Deep bass? Slam? Treble detail? Midrange richness? Soundstage size?
I'd make sure that you hear Vandersteen speakers. They avoid the etched treble that turns me off of so many "audiophile" speakers.
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If you have the bucks, Shahinian Diapasons.
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I have not heard those Maggies but I would think any panel speakers are going to need some good old woofer help in the first octave. I got a pair of big Sound Lab 'Stats that I augment with 4 subwoofers (Duke's Swarm) to play Symphonies in my mother's house.
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The RM40's sound much better if you actively bi-amp them and use a tube amp on the mids/highs and a high powered SS amp on the woofers. Probably a similar setup can work just as well for any big set of speakers. What this does is let the amps have more direct control over the drivers, and allows a more musical amp to be used on the mid/highs without losing the ability to swing large and small dynamics with ease.
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Arrays!! Get the LS9/LS6 which are full range arrays, or get the selah arrays and couple them with a pair of subwoofers.
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Hello Paul,
If your stereo sounds good with one type of music (Jazz) but not with another (classical) I would be tempted to look at your source first. The difference between classical and Jazz is in most cases the actual number of instruments playing at one time. I don't know what equipment you have but assume that it is very revealing, a good quality two way speaker can sound nice enough with all types of music without getting in the way too much. :D
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I have not heard those Maggies but I would think any panel speakers are going to need some good old woofer help in the first octave.
I haven't heard the ones in the picture either, but whether or not someone will want to supplement the bottom end will depend on room placement and personal taste.
But for classical music, symphony and large orchestra, even without supplementary bass Magnepans have no equal. The smallest Magnepan has the equivalent 72 one-inch dome tweeters and 9 eight-inch woofers! Conventional speakers simply cannot convey the same realism of the bigger maggies when it comes to large scale music.
I have over 300 classical discs that I rarely listen to. If I had maggies, that would probably change. In fact there was only one time I was impressed listening to a recording of classical music. That was through a 6' tall pair of maggies many years ago.
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The difference between classical and Jazz is in most cases the actual number of instruments playing at one time.
Not really. The sound multiple instruments make doesn't scale up in a linear fashion. The sound of massed strings is really very different from a single violin or a string quartet. A Mahler symphony played in a large hall makes quite different demands on an audio system than a small Jazz combo playing in a studio. And the way recordings are made for the different genres can be quite different.
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Yep, it's all about tone and dynamics (along with spacious imaging) with classical. Take it from a classical music nut ;)
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What I was assuming from the original post was that his stereo sounds good with between one and say around twenty people playing but sounds not so good with between one and a hundred people playing/singing.
As much as it could be his speakers it could also be his cd player, if he were to audition a better cd player I think it couold be possible that the improved resolving ability will let the orchestra and choirs sing through his speakers as well as a small jazz band.
It is only a suggestion mind you, I don't have any experience with his equipment. :D
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I have not heard those Maggies but I would think any panel speakers are going to need some good old woofer help in the first octave.
I haven't heard the ones in the picture either, but whether or not someone will want to supplement the bottom end will depend on room placement and personal taste.
But for classical music, symphony and large orchestra, even without supplementary bass Magnepans have no equal. The smallest Magnepan has the equivalent 72 one-inch dome tweeters and 9 eight-inch woofers! Conventional speakers simply cannot convey the same realism of the bigger maggies when it comes to large scale music.
I have over 300 classical discs that I rarely listen to. If I had maggies, that would probably change. In fact there was only one time I was impressed listening to a recording of classical music. That was through a 6' tall pair of maggies many years ago.
Sound Labs are pretty big panels too. They do great job with Baroque but they need the subs for big symphonies. But then it's probably just me being obsessed with bass. I like the visceral bass to be there if the recording has it. Tight bass is like the foundation upon which a house is built. You can't get clear highs if the bass isn't there to balance it. Just to give you an idea, I have added 4 subwoofers totaling 6 big drivers (2 18", 2 15" and 2 12") to augment my pair of RM 40 (sames as Tyson) which already has 4 10" woofers. So, IMO, panels need subwoofers. :wink:
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I seriously considered Magnepans before buying VMPS. The Magnepans bass does not have the impact and power of good dynamic woofers, IMHO. The Magnepans played the notes, but without the punch of live music. VMPS speakers have ribbon tweeters and planar mids that provide the advantages of Magnepans, but add the missing dimension. The size of the planar area is a bit misleading because the Maggies don't move as much air as dynamic drivers of the same size.
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Sound Labs are pretty big panels too. They do great job with Baroque but they need the subs for big symphonies. But then it's probably just me being obsessed with bass. I like the visceral bass to be there if the recording has it. Tight bass is like the foundation upon which a house is built. You can't get clear highs if the bass isn't there to balance it. Just to give you an idea, I have added 4 subwoofers totaling 6 big drivers (2 18", 2 15" and 2 12") to augment my pair of RM 40 (sames as Tyson) which already has 4 10" woofers. So, IMO, panels need subwoofers. :wink:
No matter how big the panels, I find electrostats don't sound like big speakers. I suspect that is because of the very directional wave propagation unique to electrostats.
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How big is your room? How loud do you listen? What kind of classical music do you have compliant about? Is this just an itch to get new toys?
As you know Paul, I have the original pair of FTA-2000s. They are driven in a nearfield setup by similar chip amps to yours in a 8ft x 13ft x 22ft room. I'm still a proud papa and in fact am scheduled to have the drivers "EnABLE'd" by Bud Purvine himself. Bud has stated that these AlNiCo drivers are perhaps the most accurate in the world. But I acknowledge the itch to get sexier speakers versus staring at those plain 8 inch drivers.
For readers not familiar with the FTA-2000s google Bob Brines. Bob's taste runs towards the Baroque so they're great for all kinds of smaller ensembles, they reach below 30 Hz (even the raw driver is factory rated flat to 30 Hz), and the rated peak output in my room/setup is 109 dB.
To go from the ideal point source to a planar or vertical array would be a big change (and IMO a big step backwards) in terms of detail and the type of imaging you'd hear. Your speakers are transmission lines, so the bass is tight/low/musical with roll off matching room gain and doesn't have any boxy artifacts in the midrange. But the smaller VMPS speakers with one (or maybe two) ribbon midrange drivers, with their extended frequency range, provide much of coherency of single driver designs. So one of my favorite multi-driver designs is the VMPS 626. With all the options and stands they cost about the same as the FTA-2000s, but would need a good sub, active crossover, and multiple amps to match up.
I've noticed that orchestral or symphonic music lacks individual/separated sound sources through the FTA-2000s. This could be a factor of the recording/mixing methods used or just a comparision to the smaller ensembles. I know that when I attend such live presentation (not often enough) that I can't hear individual performers either, no matter how close I sit or how hard I've tried (with the visual cues to help).
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I seriously considered Magnepans before buying VMPS. The Magnepans bass does not have the impact and power of good dynamic woofers, IMHO. The Magnepans played the notes, but without the punch of live music.
As for punch, with Maggies, the choice of amplification is critical. They work best with powerful SS amps that are at home with a low impedance load. The bass is different, but all die hard OB fanatics say that OB bass is more realistic. It really comes down to taste, which is a very personal thing.
As for air movement, conventional speakers don't move as much air as a Maggies do in the sense of area. No matter what the Xmax, a conventional driver will sound small in comparison to a panel (electrostats being the exception).
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To go from the ideal point source to a planar or vertical array would be a big change (and IMO a big step backwards) in terms of detail and the type of imaging you'd hear.
Not at all. I've owned a number of single driver speaker systems over the years and the point source premise is over blown hype bordering on myth. Source and amplification have a lot more to do with imaging and detail than speaker design. My current 3 way system is far more detailed than any dynamic single driver system I've owned or heard.
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=19741)
Don't over look the big Tannoys. They're awesome with clasical music; great tone, dynamics and sound stage.
Jim
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well, last time I heard Tannoy was some 15 years ago-- large Sterlings or something like that. I thought that the upper midrange was coloured all right, like they had a hump in SPL. hope the current speakers do not sound like the old ones.
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I listen 90% to classical. Mostly Bach-Mozart so I have less large orchestral music though I do like Wagner.
I bought new speakers last year and the final choice was between the Orions and my eventual choice Quad 2805. The Quad sounds better a low volume but is much weaker in the bass and playing loud (two things I cannot use in a one bedroom apartment) and the Orion is a superior general purpose speaker. The relatively small size and flexibility color even gives it decent WAF, they are even small and light enough to move if practical considerations means that you cannot have them at the optimal position all the time.
I invited myself to hear the Orions at a fellow NYC resident who was using the ATI with a CJ tube preamp. They sounded great (the only demo I have had that was better was Jeff Joseph playing Satchmo St James Infirmery when the Pearls first came out) and are my recommendation to people looking for speakers in the 5-10k range.
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I listen 90% to classical. Mostly Bach-Mozart so I have less large orchestral music though I do like Wagner.
I bought new speakers last year and the final choice was between the Orions and my eventual choice Quad 2805. The Quad sounds better a low volume but is much weaker in the bass and playing loud (two things I cannot use in a one bedroom apartment) and the Orion is a superior general purpose speaker. The relatively small size and flexibility color even gives it decent WAF, they are even small and light enough to move if practical considerations means that you cannot have them at the optimal position all the time.
I invited myself to hear the Orions at a fellow NYC resident who was using the ATI with a CJ tube preamp. They sounded great (the only demo I have had that was better was Jeff Joseph playing Satchmo St James Infirmery when the Pearls first came out) and are my recommendation to people looking for speakers in the 5-10k range.
Hey, mozartrules! I like your nick. I also listen to Bach and occasionally Mozart. I would strongly recommend to audution Salk speakers that have a clarity similar to Quads but also have a great punch. There are a few guys from NYC; they can be found on the Salk forum (AC).
What performers for Bach and Mozart do you prefer?
Art
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I've had similar experiences with single driver speakers, I loved mine (Cain & Cain Abbys, probably under-driven with a 2A3 amp) but I went back to bi-amped boxes. I do believe that single drivers just can't handle larger forces. Horns are a different and more complicated beast, so you could have it all - with a significant increase in size and expense.
Hi Gregg,
So you know what I am talking about. I too had the Abbys in my room for several weeks before they went to my nephew the eventual buyer - the last Terry sent them to me first.
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What I was assuming from the original post was that his stereo sounds good with between one and say around twenty people playing but sounds not so good with between one and a hundred people playing/singing.
As much as it could be his speakers it could also be his cd player, if he were to audition a better cd player I think it couold be possible that the improved resolving ability will let the orchestra and choirs sing through his speakers as well as a small jazz band.
It is only a suggestion mind you, I don't have any experience with his equipment. :D
Hi Browntrout,
Sorry I didn't mention the sources. I'm using (not today, it's over 100 degrees in South Bay Area this weekend) RWA SB2 as transport, Altmann's DAC (both running off battery power), SinglePower MPX3 tube pre (fully ugraded), and AudioSector Patek SE amp.
Although I don't think the "issue" is with my sources, and I do think it's the speakers, since I haven't tried and verified it, I will be considering a test to isolate the "problem".
And what's the "issue" again? Recently, and especially after I upgraded the BSC filters inside the FTA-2000s, my interest in and even love for jazz music has grown day by day. Nat King Cole, Chet Baker, Bill Evans, Eileen Farrell, Duke Ellington, Ella Fitzgerald, Louis Amstrong, Jane Monheit, you name it, that all sing and sound lovely reproduced by the setup. The trace of glare in the upper treble has gone, midrange and mid-bass sound warm and pleasantly like ever, bass is cleaner and stouter. Overall, a very musically warm and decently detailed that most fits jazz music. I am a convert now.
OK, "What's the problem?", you'd say. The thing is, a music lover friend let me hear his B&W 804S driven by Shanling STP-80 integrated tube amp and a decent Rotel CD player, and the difference was like night and day. OK, I exaggerated a bit, but you get the point. For instance, play track #2 of The Fairfield Four's I Couldn't Hear Nobody Pray "These Bones", the 804S threw a somewhat brighter but higher image of the main bass vocal soloist in front of the right speaker (left from the listener's view) while the vocal background group stayed behind the left side. The FTA-2000s, on the other hand, displayed a warmer and bigger, more extended downward image of the same bass solo voice. One major difference was a consistently higher image somewhat more specific, deeper into the wall behind speakers (B&W) versus a warmer, bigger, but lower image, a bit less specific image (FTA-2000s). Second, instrument details were clearer on the B&W, but frankly I don't have a complaint in this regard when listening to jazz music on the FTA-2000s. Both setups were not forward, only different, and both he and I enjoyed both. My only "beef" with the FTA-2000s is that if they could play classicals as well as jazz, but the more I live with them the more I realized that there are better speakers. My friend, while noticing the less detailed instruments of my setup when comparing with his, really envy me on the superb vocal warmth and overall jazz performance of mine.
Another observation: He just moved in a new place, so his AC treatment is none. OTOH, my room and my house AC has been treated with Alan Maher's filters, Hubbell & FIM and Oayde SWO-GX+ outlets. I am sure his setup will get better if and after he takes care of the likes.
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How big is your room? How loud do you listen? What kind of classical music do you have compliant about? Is this just an itch to get new toys?
As you know Paul, I have the original pair of FTA-2000s. They are driven in a nearfield setup by similar chip amps to yours in a 8ft x 13ft x 22ft room. I'm still a proud papa and in fact am scheduled to have the drivers "EnABLE'd" by Bud Purvine himself. Bud has stated that these AlNiCo drivers are perhaps the most accurate in the world. But I acknowledge the itch to get sexier speakers versus staring at those plain 8 inch drivers.
For readers not familiar with the FTA-2000s google Bob Brines. Bob's taste runs towards the Baroque so they're great for all kinds of smaller ensembles, they reach below 30 Hz (even the raw driver is factory rated flat to 30 Hz), and the rated peak output in my room/setup is 109 dB.
To go from the ideal point source to a planar or vertical array would be a big change (and IMO a big step backwards) in terms of detail and the type of imaging you'd hear. Your speakers are transmission lines, so the bass is tight/low/musical with roll off matching room gain and doesn't have any boxy artifacts in the midrange. But the smaller VMPS speakers with one (or maybe two) ribbon midrange drivers, with their extended frequency range, provide much of coherency of single driver designs. So one of my favorite multi-driver designs is the VMPS 626. With all the options and stands they cost about the same as the FTA-2000s, but would need a good sub, active crossover, and multiple amps to match up.
I've noticed that orchestral or symphonic music lacks individual/separated sound sources through the FTA-2000s. This could be a factor of the recording/mixing methods used or just a comparision to the smaller ensembles. I know that when I attend such live presentation (not often enough) that I can't hear individual performers either, no matter how close I sit or how hard I've tried (with the visual cues to help).
Hi Jeff,
Good to hear from you again. Rather than an itch to get new toys, I've come to this new level of realization of where my taste is. And actually, I'm getting to know more and love more of my FTA-2000s, learning their strength and weaknesses, something that I didn't see as clearly as before. The BB FTA-2000s are sounding better than ever, showing me what thay do best (IMHO).
Who knows, I may be wrong. There might be something wrong with my sources or even the way I treated my AC. But one thing for sure: I'll keep learning and keep my mind open. And yes, I admit it's really itchy to hear music lovers rave about open baffle designs. Orion, Emerald Physics, etc.
Happy listening!
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=19741)
Don't over look the big Tannoys. They're awesome with clasical music; great tone, dynamics and sound stage.
Jim
They look good and sexy to my eyes, Jim.
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Hello Paul_Bui, I just had a quick search for your gear on the net and see that you are using little chip amps, I would like to suggest you ask to borrow your friends integrated valve amp for a weekend and try it in your setup. I'm thinking that it is your chip amps that are the cause of the problem, in that they will, I reckon, struggle with large music like full orchestra. I think these are the weak point in your system not your speakers, at a guess. Cheers, Ben.
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well, last time I heard Tannoy was some 15 years ago-- large Sterlings or something like that. I thought that the upper midrange was coloured all right, like they had a hump in SPL. hope the current speakers do not sound like the old ones.
Art-Chicago,
Get thee to a Tannoy dealer in Chicago and have a listen. The Sterlings were very colored until the HE series, which were launched 10 years ago.
Jim
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FWIW, may I suggest a different tack? I possess a pair of Omega Aperiodic 8, single driver Visaton B200, used with a contour network to lineralise response. I always felt the network did something strange to the sound that just didn't set right with me. Just recently I got a set of Aether Audio Black Boxes. These have transformed the A8s. The sound is more precise and even. After I had read that you were using BSC filters, it occurred to me that maybe you could benefit from the BBs as I did. You can read more about them here
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=67559.0
and here
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=67787.0
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Jeff,
I received your PM and attempted to PM back but somehow always got an error message from Explorer every time I tried. Thanks for your message, please keep me informed with your digital EQ and Enable upgrade. After I upgraded mine to Mundorf caps & Duelund resistors, I like them a lot more.
Happy July 4th!
Paul
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The most compelling presentation of recorded classical music that I have ever enjoyed was from a pair of Audio Note (UK) AN-E/SPe HE. I'm saving up for the "signature" version of that speaker.
It will take me at least another year to save that much dough . . . . . :o
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Hello Paul_Bui, I just had a quick search for your gear on the net and see that you are using little chip amps, I would like to suggest you ask to borrow your friends integrated valve amp for a weekend and try it in your setup. I'm thinking that it is your chip amps that are the cause of the problem, in that they will, I reckon, struggle with large music like full orchestra. I think these are the weak point in your system not your speakers, at a guess. Cheers, Ben.
Hi Ben,
I wish that's the case. The chip amp I am using is a highly regarded gainclone that compares favorably with Kimura's Gaincard amp. In addition, it's driven by a SinglePower' maxxed out MPX3. Nevertheless, it's a good idea to try my friend's tube amp on the speakers.
Thanks for your inputs Ben. I'll keep you posted.
Happy July 4th!
Paul
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I haven't heard the ones in the picture either, but whether or not someone will want to supplement the bottom end will depend on room placement and personal taste.
But for classical music, symphony and large orchestra, even without supplementary bass Magnepans have no equal. The smallest Magnepan has the equivalent 72 one-inch dome tweeters and 9 eight-inch woofers! Conventional speakers simply cannot convey the same realism of the bigger maggies when it comes to large scale music.
I have over 300 classical discs that I rarely listen to. If I had maggies, that would probably change. In fact there was only one time I was impressed listening to a recording of classical music. That was through a 6' tall pair of maggies many years ago.
This is wierd. Even the top of the line maggies (the 20.1) don't reach 20 Hz. So they will always have a weakness in attempting to play symphonic music. Personally, I think maggies are highly compromised speakers and, with the possible exception of the MMG, there are many better speakers for classical in the various product line price ranges. With enough amplification, they can be OK for rock, where accuracy is less important.
Don't confuse the surface area of a planar-magnetic speaker with the surface area of a cone speaker. Everything, especially the engine, is different. This explains why you actually get more bass from a properly executed 8" cone woofer than you do from at entire MMG.
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I owned the Tympany 1-Ds for 15 years
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=20211)
I do not know how they compare to todays Maggies, but I do know that the 1-Ds needed 2KW of bi-amped power before the bass came alive. At that power level, reproduction of drums and tympany(!) was more realistic than any speaker I've owned, or heard, before or since. I'm just sayin'.
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This is wierd. Even the top of the line maggies (the 20.1) don't reach 20 Hz. So they will always have a weakness in attempting to play symphonic music.
Every speaker is a compromise in some way or another. I don't think bass extension beyond 35Hz is a big deal, especially for classical music. In my first post I was simply in agreement someone who said, "You really need big speakers."
The truth is there's nothing like big speakers when it comes to classical. A huge orchestra just doesn't sound or feel like a huge orchestra with 99.9% conventional speakers. Apart from the taller Maggies, I haven't heard another speaker that can present such a convincing huge life like soundstage.
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Konut,
I heard the 1-Ds on a few occasions. If properly set up in a big enough room, with the right amplification and enough power, they are quite the experience. They are definitely one of the most demanding and more challenging speakers to get set up right, but when everything comes together, they are in a class all by themselves.
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Konut,
They are definitely one of the most demanding and more challenging speakers to get set up right, but when everything comes together, they are in a class all by themselves.
This should have been the warning to me, by the dealer, before I purchased them. While I enjoyed my time with them, the ultimate challenge with them was the combination of room and placement to get anything resembling a coherent sound stage. Anything other than the exact perfect acoustic environment and room logistics, while resulting in an enthralling experience, yielded an unrealistic presentation. If one can dedicate a specific room and commit to large amps, Maggies might be a viable option for ANY genre of music..
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I owned the Tympany 1-Ds for 15 years
I do not know how they compare to todays Maggies, but I do know that the 1-Ds needed 2KW of bi-amped power before the bass came alive. At that power level, reproduction of drums and tympany(!) was more realistic than any speaker I've owned, or heard, before or since. I'm just sayin'.
I have owned a pair of 1-Us now for 35 years or so, powered with as much as 750 WPC, biamped. Even properly set-up, they are at best mediocre for classical.
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I don't think bass extension beyond 35Hz is a big deal, especially for classical music.
I have rarely heard a statement that I consider to be more wrong.
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Every speaker is a compromise in some way or another. I don't think bass extension beyond 35Hz is a big deal, especially for classical music. In my first post I was simply in agreement someone who said, "You really need big speakers."
The truth is there's nothing like big speakers when it comes to classical. A huge orchestra just doesn't sound or feel like a huge orchestra with 99.9% conventional speakers. Apart from the taller Maggies, I haven't heard another speaker that can present such a convincing huge life like soundstage.
I happen to agree with it, Zheem...especially in context to Wind Chaser's entire post.
If you look at frequency plots of various instruments, aside from massive organs, there is very little below 30hz. So, you're missing quite little for an investment of quite a lot to gain the lowest octave of bass right.
Big speakers (tall, wide, lotsa' drivers or large radiating area) get the 'majesty' and grandness of classical/orchestral right...but the deepest bass isn't critical to (at least, my and Wind Chaser's) enjoyment.
Fortunately, large speakers generally carry with them the ability to do deep bass..so it's all very tidy in all.
John
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(http://www.psbspeakers.com/Images/Audiotopics/fChart.gif)
That's from here... (http://www.psbspeakers.com/audioTopics.php?fpId=8&page_num=2&start=8)... :thumb:
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I wonder why they left out the percussion section?
I can live without organs (except Poulanc maybe :) )but not without Timpanis.
In my experience there's a big difference between simply getting down to the low 40s and actually filling the room with enough of AND with proper spread for it to feel real. For classical music I just have to feel it. Listening live is a very tactile experience. So for me, a whole lot of moving air is really a requirement to get the most out of classical software. Too bad I'm hooked on classical. I could have saved a lot of dough had I not been.
No other genre in my opinion is as demanding.
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Second, instrument details were clearer on the B&W.
My friend, while noticing the less detailed instruments
Paul if you want more "clarity" like your friend's system there are several things that can be done in your system:
1-add high frequency drivers, be it horn loaded Fostex tweeters or even planar ones.
2-might be related with the battery powered gear that for what I keep reading have less "bite" and depth than regular powered sources/equipment. I cannot remember the DAC you have but if it is a NOS one, most of them give you an image that is more profuse and not specific unlike some highly OS type of DACs. Remember that the CDP that your friend is using is more traditional, the OS type.
3-I respectfully disagree with the suggestion that it is a tube amp variable that makes the images of what you heard sharper or something.
4-B&W speakers are known to have a more aggressive sound in comparison to other speaker of the same type and maybe the difference is even more pronounced with the FTAs.
5-Every speaker and set up is different. An attempt at arriving at a certain satisfactory sound is something of a crap shot especially when there are so many variables at play.
SD speakers might be stereotypically described as lacking in extremes, with midbass humps and unable to do music with massive amount of instrumentation but then perhaps people have not heard your SD speakers, which sound different than most speakers in general.
Someone whp came to listen to my FTAs went to listen to another set up with some 18" coaxial Alnico magnet Tannoys that cost around 15K and said that the Tannoys were clearly better that did things better...then I thought to myself, hum, I paid around 1.5K for my speakers and the amplification etc... that I have it paired with was quite affordable which led to me to one conclusion, people do not really take into consideration what they perhaps can afford and have vs with what they wish they could have and hear.
Most audiophiles expect a sound that would be satisfactory in their dreams, without taking into account the impossibility of making it true. Or perhaps it is the nature of audiophilia, as people seek Shangri la or something...See all the extra $$$$$$ gear that is available in Audiogon all the time, those are the people that one ought to avoid becoming one.
For what I can see you have made great choices in equipment and have not gotten into the equipment swapping orgy that some are into.
I say enjoy your system as it sound fine to me, from what I can hear.
From another Paul in NYC
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Hi - it's a bit misleading to think of frequency content only in terms of the fundamental frequency of instrumental notes. That is a steady-state signal, which is not what most instruments generate when playing music. To take the extreme counter-example, the frequency content of an (infinitesimal duration) impulse is a uniform spectrum from zero to infinity (that is what the math says). Real-world signals clearly are neither infinitesimally short or infinite in bandwidth, but the principle remains that transient signals have significantly greater bandwidth than indicated by the corresponding steady-state frequency spectrum. Bear in mind also that (acoustic) recordings may contain information that was not generated by instrumental notes.
JohnR
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In all seriousness, fairness, and sincere curiosity, why does classical music require a special type of speaker?
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QE,
It doesn't require a 'special' speaker...it requires a very good one and, most often, a fairly large one.
Having 'discovered' classical only the last ~5 years or so after a lifetime of breezier genres...I can attest to the need for the best you can afford to maximize it's enjoyment.
That often means, a larger speaker (which given my listening space, I cannot give it full justice - but I use a 6.5" 'two' way Lineaum with a Gallo subwoofer and it sounds great...much like you found with the AudioNote speakers) :)
John
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My own opinion (at the moment) is that I have different expectations when I listen to classical music. Or lack of expectation to be more specific. I personally do not "expect" to be wowed by hi-fi, audiophile fun when I listen to classical music. I'm not sure why though. I do enjoy the hi-fi fun stuff when I listen to pop, jazz, and other mixed genres of music. Even though I expect an honest musical presentation as a baseline.
Music is music, and instruments make sound. If you need bigger speakers for classical, then you would need the same for pop, electric jazz, and many other genres. You're listening to a recording, and that recording is not the same as you being there. It is what it is. So your speaker of choice should be able to do it all, within its own limitations of course.
Just my opinion at this time. Confused and curious as always. :wink:
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Strictly speaking I wouldn't say they do. Classical music can be enjoyed with any modest speaker just as any other genre can. When it comes to attempting to recreate what one would hear in a concert hall however with about a hundred musicians and their instruments, the demands are much greater than most any other genre. Not just the speakers but the rest of the chain starting from the source must be resolving and harmonically true lest one section be mistaken for another. Never mind individual instruments except the occasional soloist because in the hall you couldn't pick out instruments with your eyes closed anyway. When aided with sight and correlating what you see with what you hear however one can zoom in on a particular musician to a limited extent.
Musically it is also the most complex in arrangement. The system must be able to deal with wide dynamic swings but more importantly convey the interplay of instruments as most works rely heavily on these to convey their musical meanings. Sections sing to and with each other and when listening live they hit us, the audience, with ripples and waves from differing directions. There's a sense of motion from left, right, front and back that follows the conductor's every movement then followed by a sense of ambience as the notes gradually die out. It just isn't easy to do and remains undone by even the most ambitious audio engineers. Sound reproduction in my mind is like special effects in a movie. I seriously doubt CGI will ever develop a truly convincing human actor. I also seriously doubt a home system can also ever truly recreate the experience of a full orchestra in the home. Still it doesn't stop many of us from trying to attain sustained periods of suspended disbelief.
In general then, at least in my own experience, speakers or systems that excel at portraying classical music also do well with any other genre. The caveat is that these systems are normally much less forgiving of music that has been recorded with heavy compression. A reason I listen to classic rock off original LP pressings from the 60s and 70s instead of their modern digital reissues.
I hope I haven't come across as didactic in any way. It's just that when it comes to audio, classical music is what I'm most passionate about.
Cheers!
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Good comments, from all. I think the test of any good component is that it does not 'prefer' one type of music over another but prefers the better recordings regardless of genre.
I sometimes look at it as a window into the event, perhaps bigger/better speakers enlarge the window and bring the pane up close so the frame is only visible in the corners of our eyes.
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Large ensembles (orchestrial, symphonic, or large choral music for example) presents unique miking/mixing challenges. As Jack posted, it is nearly impossible to hear individual performers when they number in the dozens/hundreds, so detail and imaging becomes secondary to tone and dynamics. Typically mikes are located above the ensemble, which "thins out" the bass reinforcement that the floor provides and accentuates the violins versus what is heard from the main seating area.
I agree that audiophiles often have unreasonable expectations (like fully reproducing with high fidelity any large ensemble performing in a large hall) in an average sized room at home.
The laws of physics (as I understand them) dictate that small speakers will have a most difficult time reproducing the dynamics of large ensembles. Obviously some cabinet designs are better suited than others in addressing the most tasking of challenges, foundational bass.
IMO the "hi-fi" sound of most commercial offerings, like B&W, provide a "ear candy" sort of exagerated presentation that can quickly grow old. Not to get into the single driver versus multiple driver debate, but I agree with Paul, at their price point the FTA-2000 speakers have a lot going for them. It would take a significant investment in amps, active crossovers, and speakers before hearing much of an overall improvement.
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Isn't it ironic Paul and JLM? Classical music in the hall really is anything but image specific yet the night and day difference Paul mentioned had the 804s doing better precisely in that area. 804s aren't exactly dynamos even when strapped with a kilowatt of juice anyway. So there lies the rub. The FTs are probably closer to the real thing in presentation than the 804s. What I mean is, dynamics aside, the FTs would sound closer to the live venue while the 804s would sound closer to the engineer's workstation. That is B&Ws heritage anyway particularly the Matrix 800 series since their claim to fame was their predominant use as studio monitors for classical music.
So could it be that Paul simply prefers the engineer's perspective over the audience's perspective. Maybe so and if that is the case there's nothing wrong with that at all.
As for dynamic range I'd have to rank speaker types in this descending order PROVIDED each is properly powered up. Stats, True Ribbons and Magnetostats, Dynamic and Horn arrays. Obviously OBs and Single drivers are lumped together under Dynamics since well, that's what they are variants of even when fitted with back or back folded horns.
In my experience with the maggies I've owned (I started with SMGcs and ended my love affair with 1.6QRs), they definitely throw huge soundstages due to the panel surface areas and the fact that they were dipoles. This handles the ambience part but sorry to say dynamically even when driven with monster amps even the largest examples like the big soundlabs and the MG20 can't touch a competently designed and built dynamic loudspeaker with at least a pair of 9" woofers per side when it comes to impact. Larger wave launch from a larger surface area doesn't take into account excursion. Stats and ribbons are tensioned. As power increases the points of tension send ripples back through the membranes. Kind of like mechanical feedback. This is in fact the cause of those nasty impedance dips. The amps have to work extra hard to damp the drivers. Beyond a certain point they don't get louder. They just compress. Again all of this is fine if one is happy living within a narrow dynamic envelope. Classical music however does not. I'm not knocking Maggies. I've owned and loved them but when I got into large scale classical music they just had to go.
My minimum requirement then would be good off axis response for that feeling of space and motion. Because good off axis response means I can set them farther apart without having a hole in the middle and without having to toe in aggressively. With that as a precondition I could easily enjoy a loudspeaker with an FR as narrow as 16k to 60Hz. Right now I'm measuring from 45k to 16Hz with a mild boost at 25Hz and a self induced 2dB dip at 2k with a total of 1.3kW and still I consider myself far from being in a good seat in a good hall.
My only consolation is that I can get my classical fix when I need it and that it doesn't matter if my favorite conductors and soloists are now playing in heaven instead of here on earth. Besides right now I'm pretty happy with the fix I'm getting. That's all that matters anyway right?
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I find I can listen through speakers pretty well. What sensitivity are your speakers Jack?
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Jack I tend to agree with your reasonable arguments that a truly accurate speaker should play most if not all kinds of music well. Second, I grow to realize that I may have to live with more than one system to satisfy my tastes, which vary depending on different moods and occasions.
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94dB at 2.83V Browntrout so that would be 91dB at 1w/m.
Paul, I know what you mean. In my case it's not that my main system isn't satisfying but other system configurations have charms that I just can't resist. My wife is just glad that my fickleness is confined to audio and not women! :lol:
I'm very much into systems that can blow paint off walls but I'm also a self confessed SET addict and have a mini system based on monitors (89dB) and a chinese made 300B integrated and one based on medium high sensitivity ribbon cone hybrids (95dB flat 4ohms) with DIY Audio Note 2a3 Paralleled monoblocks. If I had audio funds left and the space those monitors with my 1956 WE 300Bs would have been replaced by a Feastrex based BHL by now and I'd probably have a 45 SET amp too. Fast, Smooth and Dynamic are all great but there are just days as you say that your mood makes you go for creamy and decadent :lol:
Such is the world of compromises then. Changing flavors for me keeps listening fresh. A reason I rotate between phono cartridges as well. As you might have noticed, I gave up on the Grail Quest a long time ago and just decided to enjoy systems based on what they do best and not focus on what they can't do. For as long as a system does no harm chances are I'll enjoy it.
Cheers!
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. . . . enjoy systems based on what they do best and not focus on what they can't do.
And there lies the intent of the original post. It seems like a fair enough question to me now.
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So you have 1300 Watts going through 91db speakers. :lol: I have 13 watts going through 93db speakers. So 13 times two equals 26 then that times two gives 52. So I have the equivalent of 52 Watts going through 91db speakers against your 1300 Watts..... some twenty five times the effective power.. :surrender:
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Well not exactly Browntrout. I have a bit over 300wpc going in for the 2 ribbons (1 front firing and 1 rear firing), 1 tweeter, i midrange and 2 9" midbass woofers but behind my speakers are built-in 15" woofers with 1kW plate amps. If I were to use full boost (which I don't) sensitivity rises to 96dB for every watt that comes out of the main amplifiers. Sensitivity can be deceiving really because while my little SETs can definitely do 91dB at 1 meter with my main speakers, it's not a good sounding 91dB since there is no control in the bass region unlike some horn designs I've heard that are punchy and tight with the same power and sensitivity.
Crossovers really do eat up a lot of juice I guess and my speakers have 10s of fist sized caps and air core inductors one could get a good workout with. The horn systems I've heard normally have nothing but blocking caps. The trade off I was willing to make in exchange for REAL sensitivity is seamless driver transition and phase response. I'm very sensitive to phase shifts and by some stroke of bad luck my tinnitus sums at the frequency range where most tweeters and woofers crossover narrowing my choice of speakers greatly. Hence despite my love for SETs horns are out. Add to that that I love large scale works and stats and single drivers were out as well. I had to hunt high and low for speakers that have very low crossover distortion and can play both delicately and brashly when needed. Jeez. It's been a long trek but worth it all in all. I don't want to say it's all been worth it in the END, but I am hoping the bug doesn't bite me anymore at least for the big rig.
I still think however that I will continue to build and tinker with systems more adept to less demanding music just because it's fun and affordable play. My next project costs less than a pair of some interconnects. A pair of Duevel Planets, a Virtue 2 and an airport express. My first Omnis, I'm excited! :thumb:
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Sounds like a nice tailor made set of speakers. I've been thinking that making your own speakers is the way to go for some time. Sorry to hear you suffer from tinnitus that must be very frustrating.
How is Paul doing? Have you made any progress as to identifying what you want to do with your stereo?
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Still undecided although I've been keeping my eyes on OB speakers (Orions, Emerald Physics 2.3). For now I just enjoy my FTA-2000s.
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Going from a SD MLTL design to multiple driver OB is pretty extreme. Compared to SD, multiple driver OB create a non-coherent and diffused wall of dynamic sound. Seems like you're really itching for a change.
BTW I got the Behringer DEQ2496 back from Scott Endler after mods and am starting to play with it. His work (to clean up the DAC) sounds great. It digs out more detail and with it better imaging, deeper bass, treble is extended; all without ruining some of my favorite music that is on just average recordings. My next move will be getting the F200A drivers "Purvinized". Eventually I'd like to replace my transport (Oppo), but that's about all I see needing to be done.
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Quiet Earth asked, "...why does classical music require a special type of speaker?" This has since been answered to his satisfaction, but in the name of redundancy and in the spirit of leaving no dead horse unbeaten, here's my $.02:
Loudspeaker limitations that are tolerable or even unnoticeable on other types of music are more likely to be intolerable on classical. So it's not so much that special speakers are required for classical; rather, it's that less-special speakers are acceptable on most other types of music.
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Still undecided although I've been keeping my eyes on OB speakers (Orions, Emerald Physics 2.3). For now I just enjoy my FTA-2000s.
You might read what one of our fellow AC members had to say when comparing his Orions to Danny Richie's newest OB the V-1.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=70370.0
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Quiet Earth asked, "...why does classical music require a special type of speaker?" This has since been answered to his satisfaction,
Well,,,,, sort of, I guess. No, not really. :wink:
Loudspeaker limitations that are tolerable or even unnoticeable on other types of music are more likely to be intolerable on classical. So it's not so much that special speakers are required for classical; rather, it's that less-special speakers are acceptable on most other types of music.
This may very well be a large piece of the puzzle....... I like it.
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At this point and considering my space (2nd floor, not large enough), I've narrowed my choice to the Plutos. Just so you know.
BTW, I looked at GR web site but didn't see the V1 mentioned anywhere. Am I missing something?
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Loudspeaker limitations that are tolerable or even unnoticeable on other types of music are more likely to be intolerable on classical. So it's not so much that special speakers are required for classical; rather, it's that less-special speakers are acceptable on most other types of music.
Well said!
As a classical noob I'm awaiting a pair of Onix Ref 3s that are having their xovers upgraded with the Danny Richie inspired xovers Sean Parque now provides under the guise 'Skying Ninja'. These will be meant for 2 channel listening, and I have a dozen EMI Classics recordings to throw at them.
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Classical music is so hard to do right right, because violins are more demanding than female vocals. You think female vocals get irritating on the wrong speakers? Try listening to Bach's Sonatas and Partitas for solo violin for more than an hour. Ditto for flute and any other wind instrument. If the speakers are not smooth, then it becomes irritating to listen to. And, since classical music (unlike pop and rock) is recorded in real space, so imaging is also critical. And, because of it's complexity, you might have one group of instruments playing softly at the same time a different group of instruments is playing loudly, but it is important to hear both. That means imaging, macrodynamics, and microdynamics all have to be first rate to really "get" the music. That is VERY hard to do. I've heard only a few systems capable of doing it well - the fully active VMPS RM40's, the Hansen "Kings", the old Dunlavy SC-IV and the SC-V, the Bryston/PMC BB5-XBD, my DIY active Ella speakers, very few others. Pop and Jazz are much, much easier to do well, but classical is a real b!tch because of all the things that have to be good or great in the speakers' presentation.
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At this point and considering my space (2nd floor, not large enough), I've narrowed my choice to the Plutos. Just so you know.
BTW, I looked at GR web site but didn't see the V1 mentioned anywhere. Am I missing something?
Here is a link to thread about GR Research Super V open baffle w/servo subs.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=73597.0
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That's my fear. Even after getting the speakers, I'm afraid it will lead to a chain reaction of upgrading everything else in the signal path. Ah well........
Classical music is so hard to do right right, because violins are more demanding than female vocals. You think female vocals get irritating on the wrong speakers? Try listening to Bach's Sonatas and Partitas for solo violin for more than an hour. Ditto for flute and any other wind instrument. If the speakers are not smooth, then it becomes irritating to listen to. And, since classical music (unlike pop and rock) is recorded in real space, so imaging is also critical. And, because of it's complexity, you might have one group of instruments playing softly at the same time a different group of instruments is playing loudly, but it is important to hear both. That means imaging, macrodynamics, and microdynamics all have to be first rate to really "get" the music. That is VERY hard to do. I've heard only a few systems capable of doing it well - the fully active VMPS RM40's, the Hansen "Kings", the old Dunlavy SC-IV and the SC-V, the Bryston/PMC BB5-XBD, my DIY active Ella speakers, very few others. Pop and Jazz are much, much easier to do well, but classical is a real b!tch because of all the things that have to be good or great in the speakers' presentation.
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Forget about speakers. Get headphones instead. Much cheaper to do. :wink:
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I think I just found my "ultimate" speaker, as we are about ready to retire and the audiophile budget will be severely limited. You don't see a lot of reviews on these, although soundstage has a fairly good review. They are simply amazing for filling a large room with sound, dynamic range, and presence. Check out the Verity Parsifal Encores. They are made in Quebec, and the company is very customer friendly. They do like power, and any tubes in the system seem to enhance the presentation.
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Verity does make very good loudspeakers and to me the Parsifal is the "sweet spot" of their model line-up. The 25 to 30 G segment is the battleground of specialist loudspeaker manufacturers so the competition is stiff. I'd put them in the top 5 of all I've heard and choosing between these five to me would be a matter of taste and synergy with existing upstream components. It looks like your retirement will be a very enjoyable one. Congratulations Dave :)
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I have not heard those Maggies but I would think any panel speakers are going to need some good old woofer help in the first octave. I got a pair of big Sound Lab 'Stats that I augment with 4 subwoofers (Duke's Swarm) to play Symphonies in my mother's house.
Dad gum, Wood, your mother accept callers?
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As some posters here have implied, not all classical music is the same. Large-scale orchestral works, opera, and some choral, especially of the Romantic, Late- and Post-Romantic eras has huge dynamic range -- think of those crescendos where the tympany and every other instrument plays the same note fortisimo a the same time. :)
On the other hand chamber music, (which I listen to a lot), has much more in common with acoustic Jazz. Also, Classical era orchestral, (think Haydn & Mozart), especially "HIP" performances, is much less demanding than the above Romantic stuff in terms of the huge dynamics.
Speaking of Magneplanars, first, these are what I've got and love; see my setup here (http://www.ody.ca/~wbailey/StereoDiagram10.jpg). Maggies are certainly among the great choices for acoustic music in general. With adequate amplification they do justice to all but the hugest Romantic-style crescendos. Well there is an exception: the smallest Maggies, the MMG and maybe MG 12, just won't do it uless you use suwoofer set to a high, say 80 Hz, crossover, (both low and High bass).
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Some of my favorite classical reproductions are on speakers designed for larger scale. Avalon eidolon, B&W 801, larger Kharma ceramique, vandersteen 5. Speakers of this caliber don't just have the displacement to communicate weight, they also have the articulation.
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Hi,
I unreservedly agree with those recommending the Magnepans, they exhibit the main desirable loudspeaker properties:
Large membrane surface area
Low membrane weight
Nearly pure ohmic impedance
Dipole radiation
Low distortion
Especially notable is their ability to provide high-resolution reproduction of complex music signals. State-of-the-art technology.
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Hi,
I unreservedly agree with those recommending the Magnepans, they exhibit the main desirable loudspeaker properties:
Large membrane surface area
Low membrane weight
Nearly pure ohmic impedance
Dipole radiation
Low distortion
Especially notable is their ability to provide high-resolution reproduction of complex music signals. State-of-the-art technology.
I like (at least) the 1.6 and a sub for classical. The 3.6 with a sub would be nirvana for me. They put you IN the music.
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Construct,
maybe you should start saving for a pair of 3.6...
:green:
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Construct,
maybe you should start saving for a pair of 3.6...
:green:
I have considered it...I already have the sub for it. But: I'd need a suitable amp as well.
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I already have the sub for it.
OK, otherwise this one should do it as well.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=33469)
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...or this:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=33470)
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OK, otherwise this one should do it as well.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=33469)
Either that's a portable room partition or perhaps ye olde Maggies?
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...or this:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=33470)
I'd like to see a review/measurements of that. Interesting.
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These are INFRAPLANAR subwoofers, constituting a perfect match to the 3.6. I wouldn't bother much with measurement data, it´s unlikely that you will find any better.
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I have considered it [Magneplanar MG 3.6] ...I already have the sub for it. But: I'd need a suitable amp as well.
How does 350+ wpc into 4 ohms for US$400 sound?? I'm building one based on this kid, (here (http://classdaudio.com/index.php/class-d-amplifier-kits/home-kits/sds-258-kit.html)). I'll report when done.
(http://classdaudio.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/265x265/5e06319eda06f020e43594a9c230972d/s/d/sds-258_kit.jpg)
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How does 350+ wpc into 4 ohms for US$400 sound?? I'm building one based on this kid, (here). I'll report when done.
I'm using one of these on the bass panels of my Maggie IIIA's and a 120wpc Class D on my mids/highs. I'm interested to hear your opinions when you're up and running.
steve
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I honestly doubt that driver size or speaker type plays any more of a role for classical than anything else... I believe you will find the same features.
The thing is that when it comes to classical we all have an idea of what we feel about very large venues and scaling of sound due to multiple instruments playing at the same time that vary in size themselves. It is less subjective as to what they would sound like than the common rock, country, and other things. We just know where as with the other music it is all personal taste, different equipment, blah blah blah...
I do however firmly believe that larger drivers (more drivers help but not the same) make anything sound more believable, especially high efficiency ones. The reason might be the amount of resonation coming off the cone at particular pats of the music in the attack and decay - that are not very measurable but take up space per say - are larger and size and give a believability to the music not only in projected size but sound as well. I have Horn Shoppe speakers at the moment and love them, and listen to classical... they do it fine. However nothing competes with my old 15 OB coaxials outdoors. They are so believable you could honestly confuse someone for a real concert (smaller venue) with rock but when it comes to classical a well trained ear would probably be able to pick up the lack of quantity rather than space taken up.
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Paul,
So is your decision still the Pluto's? Those are wonderful omni's that have mid to high integration which translate classical incredably well. Siegfried has also recently re-voiced his Orions (now Orion 3.2) to be better than ever and the violins sing quite emotionally. If you haven't heard them with the recent changes I believe they will be at RMAF2010.
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There are either good speakers of bad speakers regardless of the music you play.
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Strictly speaking I wouldn't say they do. Classical music can be enjoyed with any modest speaker just as any other genre can. When it comes to attempting to recreate what one would hear in a concert hall however with about a hundred musicians and their instruments, the demands are much greater than most any other genre. Not just the speakers but the rest of the chain starting from the source must be resolving and harmonically true lest one section be mistaken for another. Never mind individual instruments except the occasional soloist because in the hall you couldn't pick out instruments with your eyes closed anyway. When aided with sight and correlating what you see with what you hear however one can zoom in on a particular musician to a limited extent.
Musically it is also the most complex in arrangement. The system must be able to deal with wide dynamic swings but more importantly convey the interplay of instruments as most works rely heavily on these to convey their musical meanings. Sections sing to and with each other and when listening live they hit us, the audience, with ripples and waves from differing directions. There's a sense of motion from left, right, front and back that follows the conductor's every movement then followed by a sense of ambience as the notes gradually die out. It just isn't easy to do and remains undone by even the most ambitious audio engineers. Sound reproduction in my mind is like special effects in a movie. I seriously doubt CGI will ever develop a truly convincing human actor. I also seriously doubt a home system can also ever truly recreate the experience of a full orchestra in the home. Still it doesn't stop many of us from trying to attain sustained periods of suspended disbelief.
In general then, at least in my own experience, speakers or systems that excel at portraying classical music also do well with any other genre. The caveat is that these systems are normally much less forgiving of music that has been recorded with heavy compression. A reason I listen to classic rock off original LP pressings from the 60s and 70s instead of their modern digital reissues.
I hope I haven't come across as didactic in any way. It's just that when it comes to audio, classical music is what I'm most passionate about.
Cheers!
When it comes to listening to live music in a concert hall, nearly everything you hear no matter what seat you are in is due to the acoustics of the hall itself. In Boston Symphony Hall, about 89% 16 feet from the performing stage and increasingly more as you sit further back. Unfortunately this sound is not on the recording to any significant degree and there's no way to reproduce it if it were. Virtually all recordings are made with the microphones far closer to the instruments than anyone in the audience is, usually no more than a few feet away and they generally have a cardiod pickup pattern which favors sounds coming from the direction they are pointed in. The result is a very "dry" non reverberant sound compared to the real thing. The one exception are binaural recordings where the mikes are where you'd sit but reproducing it though headphones sounds like the source is inside your head and reproducing it through speakers makes it sound like they are in a tunnel and you are on the outside. I think the abilitiy to reproduce live concert hall sound is still well beyond the state of the art.
My biggest beefs with recording techniques are overly loud and shrill piccolos and highlight miking soloists when the balance engineer exaggerates their loudness compared to the rest of an orchestra.
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I don't think anyone posting on this topic has mentioned Salk speakers, which I can highly recommend. About 90% of our listening is classical music (my wife is a classical pianist) and we just bought a pair of Salk Veracity HT2-TLs. To our ears the Salks sound very open, detailed (but not etched), balanced and natural. Instruments just sound authentic. Bass is so good, I'm no longer feeling that I need to add a subwoofer to our system. A bonus is that Jim Salk crafts beautiful wood veneers for his speakers.
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As some posters here have implied, not all classical music is the same. Large-scale orchestral works, opera, and some choral, especially of the Romantic, Late- and Post-Romantic eras has huge dynamic range -- think of those crescendos where the tympany and every other instrument plays the same note fortisimo a the same time. :)
On the other hand chamber music, (which I listen to a lot), has much more in common with acoustic Jazz. Also, Classical era orchestral, (think Haydn & Mozart), especially "HIP" performances, is much less demanding than the above Romantic stuff in terms of the huge dynamics.
Speaking of Magneplanars, first, these are what I've got and love; see my setup here (http://www.ody.ca/~wbailey/StereoDiagram10.jpg). Maggies are certainly among the great choices for acoustic music in general. With adequate amplification they do justice to all but the hugest Romantic-style crescendos. Well there is an exception: the smallest Maggies, the MMG and maybe MG 12, just won't do it uless you use suwoofer set to a high, say 80 Hz, crossover, (both low and High bass).
Hi, Feanor. Nice post, however your link isn't working.
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I heard the Reference 3a Grand Veenas at a show, playing orchestral music, and I thought the sound was excellent! Very airy and open and one of the most musical speakers for classical I've ever heard. To my ears, they bested speakers in other rooms that were several times the price. I'd say they're a steal at their $8k asking price. If you listen to rock music at all I'd recommend a home audition before buying; not sure how well they'd ROCK! But Classical and small scale acoustic they do in spades.
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I’d recommend any of the Ohm speakers. Their quasi-omnidirectional presentation gives and expansive sound suitable for classical music.
I’ve owned/reviewed these over the past 40 years and by far prefer the Ohms.
Wharfedale W60, EPI 150, Braun L710, DCM Time Window, Spendor SP1/2, Mirage M3-si, Monitor Audio Studio 6, APL Serenade, JM Labs Daline 3.1, Micron Karat, Wisdom Audio 50, Clements 206di, Shamrock Eire, Equation 7, 9, Silverline S12, SR15, SR17, Panatella, Sonatina, Sonata, Galante Rhapsody, SAP Quartete, Klipschorn, Klipsch Belle, Heresy, KG4, Shahinian Obelisk, Omega Super 3, Harbeth C7II, Lamhorn, Altec Valencia, JM Reynaud Twin, Trente, Offrande, Magneplanar 1.2, GPA 604-8H, Ohm Micro Walsh, 100, 3000.
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Axiom has just introduced their new Omindirectional, DPS controlled tower...the LFR1100. At $2800 (Pre-order) you may want to give these a look.
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I heard the Reference 3a Grand Veenas at a show, playing orchestral music, and I thought the sound was excellent! Very airy and open and one of the most musical speakers for classical I've ever heard. To my ears, they bested speakers in other rooms that were several times the price. I'd say they're a steal at their $8k asking price. If you listen to rock music at all I'd recommend a home audition before buying; not sure how well they'd ROCK! But Classical and small scale acoustic they do in spades.
That's one that would be on my short list for my current room with the DeVore Nines. Efficient enough for tube amps, too. Bigger room, bigger amp . . Magnepan 3.7's. would get an audition, absolutmente. I listen predominately to recordings made on location. Purity of instrumental tone and body, articulation and dynamic sweep, and 3D seperation of instruments and a stage I can walk around in or is realistic to memory from a distance bout sums it up for me. I'm pretty good to go as is, but could appreciate a grander scale. The volume control and my speaker placement works pretty well for me considering that my speakers are on the small side.
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Hello Paul,
If your stereo sounds good with one type of music (Jazz) but not with another (classical) I would be tempted to look at your source first. The difference between classical and Jazz is in most cases the actual number of instruments playing at one time. I don't know what equipment you have but assume that it is very revealing, a good quality two way speaker can sound nice enough with all types of music without getting in the way too much. :D
Yes, I changed the source and things have gotten much better. A SBT (Squeezebox Touch) modded by Bolder Cable's Wayne, powered by Teddy Pardo's TTouch PS, feeding a Teddy Pardo's DAC. Preamp is Single Power MPX3 SE, soon replaced by Dodd Audio's latest active preamp. Thank you.
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How big is your room? How loud do you listen? What kind of classical music do you have compliant about? Is this just an itch to get new toys?
As you know Paul, I have the original pair of FTA-2000s. They are driven in a nearfield setup by similar chip amps to yours in a 8ft x 13ft x 22ft room. I'm still a proud papa and in fact am scheduled to have the drivers "EnABLE'd" by Bud Purvine himself. Bud has stated that these AlNiCo drivers are perhaps the most accurate in the world. But I acknowledge the itch to get sexier speakers versus staring at those plain 8 inch drivers.
For readers not familiar with the FTA-2000s google Bob Brines. Bob's taste runs towards the Baroque so they're great for all kinds of smaller ensembles, they reach below 30 Hz (even the raw driver is factory rated flat to 30 Hz), and the rated peak output in my room/setup is 109 dB.
To go from the ideal point source to a planar or vertical array would be a big change (and IMO a big step backwards) in terms of detail and the type of imaging you'd hear. Your speakers are transmission lines, so the bass is tight/low/musical with roll off matching room gain and doesn't have any boxy artifacts in the midrange. But the smaller VMPS speakers with one (or maybe two) ribbon midrange drivers, with their extended frequency range, provide much of coherency of single driver designs. So one of my favorite multi-driver designs is the VMPS 626. With all the options and stands they cost about the same as the FTA-2000s, but would need a good sub, active crossover, and multiple amps to match up.
I've noticed that orchestral or symphonic music lacks individual/separated sound sources through the FTA-2000s. This could be a factor of the recording/mixing methods used or just a comparision to the smaller ensembles. I know that when I attend such live presentation (not often enough) that I can't hear individual performers either, no matter how close I sit or how hard I've tried (with the visual cues to help).
Hi Jeff,
I think my Patek SE, although very good, perhaps not powerful enough for playing classical music on the FTA-2000s, which have been much better after the filter's components upgraded to better quality. Not everyone will approve this component upgraditis, but I like what I hear. I'm thinking of getting a good class D amp, thanks to this AC forum.
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i replaced my 15 year old apogee divas with a pair of emerald physics open-baffle speakers. 90% of my listening is classical, about evenly divided between the genres (choral, opera, orchestra, chamber, instrumental). so far, and especially after the first 200 hours for break-in, i am more than satisfied.
i can't entirely discount the difference made by the associated electronics. in the case of the apogee, a krell fpb600 amp and, as a source, the krell kps25 cd player/preamp. for the emerald physics cs1.3s, DEQ and room-correction via spatial computer and a prism orpheus preamp/dac. tri-amped, but in total half the weight and a fraction of the cost of the krell gear.
i can't think of a single dimension where i prefer the divas, or indeed any of the speakers i've used over the years (B&W 801, martin-logan sequel II).
not entirely trusting my own impressions, i hosted a small group of musicians this last weekend for a listening session. although i've spent a good deal of time in the concert hall, i wanted a reality-check from people with experience making and listening to music in a range of venues. we even did a small "is it live experiment", a recorded george garzone solo vs. a live take from one of my friends. the giveaway was that garzone is a much, much better sax player (no surprise there), but other than that, they were shockingly similar.
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Agreed, high efficiency open baffle speakers with good tonality are awesome with classical!
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i can't think of a single dimension where i prefer the divas, or indeed any of the speakers i've used over the years (B&W 801, martin-logan sequel II).
not entirely trusting my own impressions, i hosted a small group of musicians this last weekend for a listening session. although i've spent a good deal of time in the concert hall, i wanted a reality-check from people with experience making and listening to music in a range of venues. we even did a small "is it live experiment", a recorded george garzone solo vs. a live take from one of my friends. the giveaway was that garzone is a much, much better sax player (no surprise there), but other than that, they were shockingly similar.
I am curious as to the response of your musician friends to your Emerald Physics.
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Linkwitz Orions... about as close to the real performance as your source will allow. IME, this is true across a wide range of musical styles, but whether it's piano, string quartets, voice, huge orchestra and chorus, the Orions do classical extremely well.
If you want pipe organ at realistic levels, you might eventually add Thor subwoofers, but many (like me) are happy with the bass capability of the standard Orions.
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/index.html (http://www.linkwitzlab.com/index.html)
Good luck with your quest,
Peter
I spent a bit of time listening to the Linkwitz Orions at AXPONA in Jacksonville and was quite impressed with them. Definitely one of the best sounding rooms at the show IMO. (They were being driven with Pass amplification.) I also heard Tidal speakers at Axpona and was smitten by their sound as well. I recently added a set of Tidal Piano Ceras to my setup and am amazed by their performance. The majority of my listening is classical music and all size ensembles, whether solo performer, string quartet, opera, or full blown orchestral, sound breathtaking.
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I feel some speakers are more suited to classical music and simply don't cut it with rock and high volume selections. Use of indirect bass especially folded horns ie Klipsch do not accurately reproduce the floor thumping quality of modern percussion. Bass content in most orchestral works has a subtle nature which is derived from the ensemble playing of lower strings. This then is the realm of indirect low frequency drivers.
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Hi everybody, my first post on AudioCircle :)
I find that when auditioning speakers I have in mind the genres of music I play most. For me a balance of attack and the ability to be graceful is what I look for, which is often a difficult balance. Speakers that lack verve, in my view, weaken the drama of classical music. Some speakers often recommended for classical to my ears sound too laid back or dry.
The most challenging aspect for a speaker IMHO is getting the subtleties of bass from say string sounds like deep dark cello passages, especially when they are very soft. A speaker for classical music needs to display the details and colours of the different instruments very clearly.
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Welcome, Elmo! :thumb:
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Hi everybody, my first post on AudioCircle :)
I find that when auditioning speakers I have in mind the genres of music I play most. For me a balance of attack and the ability to be graceful is what I look for, which is often a difficult balance. Speakers that lack verve, in my view, weaken the drama of classical music. Some speakers often recommended for classical to my ears sound too laid back or dry.
The most challenging aspect for a speaker IMHO is getting the subtleties of bass from say string sounds like deep dark cello passages, especially when they are very soft. A speaker for classical music needs to display the details and colours of the different instruments very clearly.
Yes, welcome, Elmo!
So what have you found that works well for classical music?
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My latest and hopefully last set up for classical (and pretty much everything else) includes Linkwitz's Pluto 2.1+, Dodd's variable gain preamp, Teddy Pardo's DAC, modded SBT or JPLAY/JKspdif3 as discless transport. I am a happy listener now.
Cheers!
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When it comes to listening to live music in a concert hall, nearly everything you hear no matter what seat you are in is due to the acoustics of the hall itself. In Boston Symphony Hall, about 89% 16 feet from the performing stage and increasingly more as you sit further back. Unfortunately this sound is not on the recording to any significant degree and there's no way to reproduce it if it were. Virtually all recordings are made with the microphones far closer to the instruments than anyone in the audience is, usually no more than a few feet away and they generally have a cardiod pickup pattern which favors sounds coming from the direction they are pointed in. The result is a very "dry" non reverberant sound compared to the real thing. The one exception are binaural recordings where the mikes are where you'd sit but reproducing it though headphones sounds like the source is inside your head and reproducing it through speakers makes it sound like they are in a tunnel and you are on the outside. I think the abilitiy to reproduce live concert hall sound is still well beyond the state of the art.
My biggest beefs with recording techniques are overly loud and shrill piccolos and highlight miking soloists when the balance engineer exaggerates their loudness compared to the rest of an orchestra.
Favorite classical recordings of mine typically use very discreet microphoning. Check out Stavinsky's The Firebird Suite and don't miss the flip side The Song of The Nightingale from Reference Recordings. Expensive but worth it. You are believably in the hall itself. I adjust my seat in the hall with judicious use of my volume control which you should be able to do, too, if your speaker positioning and room are sympathetic.
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Loudspeaker limitations that are tolerable or even unnoticeable on other types of music are more likely to be intolerable on classical. So it's not so much that special speakers are required for classical; rather, it's that less-special speakers are acceptable on most other types of music.
Well stated. Classical has upwards of 40 db of dynamics, and it is not amplified, so it's more demanding across the board.
For my case, I found that speakers like those made by ATC (with serious over engineered drivers), along with a subwoofer, can get the listener a lot closer to what one would expect classical to sound like. The electronics connected to the speaker makes a difference as well. For example, I recently obtained a 6AH4 preamp to use with 1625 mono blocks. The 6AH4 is a low mu tube with a lot of drive, and makes for one damn fine sounding preamp.
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Although this is an old thread (the original poster hasn't checked in for a couple of years), it is worth reviving. "Best" for classical is such a hard thing to nail down. Jimd's rig sounds awfully good on much of the classical that I've heard on it... a mtm with a sub in a medium room. Yet if I want Rossini overtures in full volume, I'll take my giant LS9's in a large listening room. If it's Spanish guitar, I go to my Neo2x rig in my den (or even a pair of Zigmahornets that usually reside in a closet-they do solo guitar amazingly well). But, in my experience so far, nothing does big orchestra like big speakers.
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Although this is an old thread (the original poster hasn't checked in for a couple of years), it is worth reviving. "Best" for classical is such a hard thing to nail down. Jimd's rig sounds awfully good on much of the classical that I've heard on it... a mtm with a sub in a medium room. Yet if I want Rossini overtures in full volume, I'll take my giant LS9's in a large listening room. If it's Spanish guitar, I go to my Neo2x rig in my den (or even a pair of Zigmahornets that usually reside in a closet-they do solo guitar amazingly well). But, in my experience so far, nothing does big orchestra like big speakers.
Clark glad that you picked up this thread as I read all the way through and was hoping it didn't end a year or so ago. I have gotten back into vinyl and have been aquiring a lot of classical LP's to listen to. It seems that all the previous posters are saying that you have to have real expensive speakers to listen to classical? I am listening to my LP's through a pair of older Technic SB-2520 three way with 10" woofers driven by a JVC RX-6020 AV amp 100WPC in 2 channel mode, and they make the music live with great soundstage like you are in the hall stage front with lots of detail. They also present the big band swing stuff the same.
Have no complaints about what I get from this setup, my front end is a JVC AX-1 TT and Cambridge 540p pre amp, on the digital side I have a Panasonic BD player for the CD's and movies. Listen to all in 2 channel.
Jim
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Harbeth for me. Neutrality in tonal balance with midrange clarity and detail are a hallmark for their range, with good bass extension for their size.
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Mirage (last generation)
Morrison Audio
Duevel
Linkwitz Labs
Martin Logan (most recent electrostats)
Ohm Walsch
Decware omni's
Gee, can you tell some of my biases?
Also, though this is in response to the Axioms mentioned a number of years ago - they are not omnidirectional in launch pattern. At all. I'm really surprised to see that word used on their website to describe that model.
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Mirage (last generation)
Morrison Audio
Duevel
Linkwitz Labs
Martin Logan (most recent electrostats)
Ohm Walsch
Decware omni's
Gee, can you tell some of my biases?
You look like an omni and planar/dipole man! I notice you don't mention Magnepan. Do you dislike them?
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You look like an omni and planar/dipole man! I notice you don't mention Magnepan. Do you dislike them?
And the best of all in this category- Sound Lab electrostatic panels, particularly the Ultimate U-1PX.
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You look like an omni and planar/dipole man! I notice you don't mention Magnepan. Do you dislike them?
No, no dislike on my part. Mine was definitely an incomplete list. Others could include:
Magnepan
MBL
Mur Audio (world's first omni electrostat!)
B&O Beolab 5
etc.
My point being, I prefer the open, omni and "figure 8" sound for classical rather than what is typically produced from standard box speakers.
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There is something to be said for omni speakers for classical. Although I've had many setups better than my old Design Acoustics D12's, they are still pretty good for orchestral classical. Look carefully in the photo and you'll see my blue dodecahedrons in the background.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=29377)
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No, no dislike on my part. Mine was definitely an incomplete list. Others could include:
Magnepan
MBL
Mur Audio (world's first omni electrostat!)
B&O Beolab 5
etc.
My point being, I prefer the open, omni and "figure 8" sound for classical rather than what is typically produced from standard box speakers.
That being the case , I would second Russell's Magnepan recommendation .
As long as you give the "Maggies" a bit of space to breathe in a room , they have the ability to present Classical (& just about any other Acoustical Music Genre) in a seemingly more natural manner than do dynamic speakers.
I have a pair of 2.7QR that I'm considering setting up in a room using a very unusual placement of the speakers. Rather than "firirng" the music straight into the room this placement aims the fronts of the panels at each other with the front edge of the panels slightly toed in toward the back wall.
I saw this on the "MUG" board over on AA many years ago & never tried it . It has a chance to work due to the
fact they're bipolar speakers.
Disregarding my insanity for a second , do try to demo the Magnepans.
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Researcher David Griesinger has studied what makes a great seat in a concert hall. He found that two elements must be in play: First, a clear stream of direct sound; and second, a clear stream of reverberant sound. The key here is that the two be separated in time, rather than smeared together.
Bringing this principle into the home listening room, it can be a challenge to get good differentiation between the direct and reverberant energy streams. The enemy here is, the early reflections. If we can impose a fairly long time delay between the arrival of the direct sound and the onset of significant reverberant energy, we can satisfy the two-streams requirement. This isn't as esoteric as it sounds - Maggie and SoundLab and Martin Logan and Quad owners do it all the time! By pulling their fairly directional dipole speakers out into the room a good five feet or so, they are imposing roughly 10 milliseconds of delay on the backwave energy, because of the path length of its bounce off the wall. The 10 millisecond target comes from my own observations as a longtime dipole user, and is supported by Earl Geddes, who is a leading expert in the field of small-room acoustics and psychoacoustics.
(A quick tangent is in order: In home audio systems, there is often a fundamental problem that needs to be addressed before we start worrying about meeting the requirements of the two-stream paradigm, and that is, the spectral balance of the reverberant field is usually wrong. The vast majority of energy in the reverberant field starts out as off-axis sound, so we need to get the off-axis response right. In general most omnis, dipoles, and other polydirectional speakers do a better in this area than most conventional cone-n-dome speakers. Many speakers with rather aggressive pattern control (good horn or waveguide based systems) also do well in this area.)
That 10-millisecond delay target is harder to meet with wide-pattern cone-n-dome speakers or omnis because they have more near-side-wall interaction. And most speakers will have some floor and ceiling bounce, which fortunately the ear is not especially sensitive to despite the fact that they happen well before our 10 millisecond target.
Personally I am not in favor of the overly aggressive use of absorption to soak up the energy in the early reflections. Absorption is always more effective on short wavelengths than on longer ones, and this absorption happens to all reflections that hit the absorptive material, not just the first ones. So the net effect is to roll off the high frequency energy in the reverberant sound, which is usually lacking in high frequency energy as it is.
In my opinion the spectrally correct (and obviously well-energized) reverberant field of a good omni is beneficial, and especially so for classical music because it more closely approximates the concert hall experience. But if we want to get closer to the experience we'd have in a really good seat in a concert hall, we should look at the two-stream paradigm, and try to get a clear time-differentiation between our direct and reverberant sound streams. Imo dipoles, bipoles, and other well thought-out polydirectionals can deliver the goods if they are set up correctly. And if we have the two-stream paradigm (and that 10-millisecond target) in mind, imo we are on the right track.
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These 18" waveguide/15" woofer/1" compression driver loaded speakers do well with Classical,...IMO. I use them with a small, mixed swarm of 2- 6.5" tapped horns and one conventional 12" sealed sub. They're powered with inexpensive amps but they still sound good. They project a nice large sound stage, solid center image, locate instruments, etc. They're high efficiency. Huge dynamics. 15" woofer hits hard! :) I'm slowly upgrading my electronics, to ,hopefully, maximize their potential.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-JDSv75yzsBM/VlJMn1WcjWI/AAAAAAAALnw/cTacfWLtMuc/s512-Ic42/P1080631.JPG?gl=US)
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after more 40 years of experience as both a hifi listener and a musician, i can say that sound levels in a concert hall might seem very high, but indeed they are not.
it's huge sound, but not so loud in terms of dB.
only when you're part of the orchestra and are sitting behind some loud brass or timpany etc. it can be to loud (that's why many musicians use hearing protection).
next time you visit a concert take your iphone dB-app and test for yourself.
even when sitting in the 1-10 rows and in the middle of the concert hall - dB maximum at a hector berlioz concert of beethoven's no. 9 symphony will never show more than about 85 dB on your dB-app. it will not be 100% accurate - but it's a good mark for listening levels at home.
good listening starts with normal sound levels - if you hifi system only sounds nice at extremely high levels, something might be wrong with you setup. (or your ears).
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To listen orchestral music: open baffles with two big subwoofers 15" or 18" (closed) is a winner combination in a BIG room.
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To listen orchestral music: open baffles with two big subwoofers 15" or 18" (closed) is a winner combination in a BIG room.
Yeah, but a sealed midwoofer has impact that you can feel even at moderate volumes. Big cojones for big music. :green: Complement it with a swarm of subs.
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Are even the MMG Maggies good or do you have to live up to the higher end models? I'm tempted by MMG if so, can't really afford higher at the moment :|
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I'll chime in. Vandersteen, Thiel which is no longer available except used still has a huge following and is very transparent and true to timbres...get the 2.4se as it has good bass extension. Its a total drop dead bargain used (there are a pair for sale right now on the west coast for $800). If cost is no object, Rockport Technologies makes killer speakers, very articulate and accurate for a whole butt load of money though. Revel. I've had magnepans, sound labs, martin logans, and my present Thiels are still holding on but I'd love to have something that goes deeper so I'm looking into Salon2s and Vandersteen probably used 5a's. TAD Evolution One's are awesome for classical. I still think I'm likely to end up with Salon2s but I certainly intend to try to listen to a lot more. Paradigm Persona series is a possibility but it seems they're a little hot on the top end but that's something Thiel's have been saddled with in the past which I find not to be true. As usual speaker selection is a total ordeal because many dealers just don't have the speakers setup properly...for example the local dealer for Revel has no clue what he's doing for two channel reproduction so short of carrying in my 100 lb Pass labs amps (not gonna happen) its really impossible to properly judge them locally.
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I like Magnepans but I would avoid the tiny ones like the plague. I had them years ago. It could be I had inferior amplification back then (I did), but inferior amplification is what these are most likely generally paired with. AVOID.
Are even the MMG Maggies good or do you have to live up to the higher end models? I'm tempted by MMG if so, can't really afford higher at the moment :|
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Here in Atlanta I've pulled out my iphone and Sound Meter X app and found peaks approaching 95 and 100 db. Its an old hall built in the early 1960s that seats about 2000 and is a little on the dry side acoustically. Generally I agree with what you're saying however true fff peaks will break 95db from my seat half way back.
after more 40 years of experience as both a hifi listener and a musician, i can say that sound levels in a concert hall might seem very high, but indeed they are not.
it's huge sound, but not so loud in terms of dB.
only when you're part of the orchestra and are sitting behind some loud brass or timpany etc. it can be to loud (that's why many musicians use hearing protection).
next time you visit a concert take your iphone dB-app and test for yourself.
even when sitting in the 1-10 rows and in the middle of the concert hall - dB maximum at a hector berlioz concert of beethoven's no. 9 symphony will never show more than about 85 dB on your dB-app. it will not be 100% accurate - but it's a good mark for listening levels at home.
good listening starts with normal sound levels - if you hifi system only sounds nice at extremely high levels, something might be wrong with you setup. (or your ears).
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Here in Atlanta I've pulled out my iphone and Sound Meter X app and found peaks approaching 95 and 100 db. Its an old hall built in the early 1960s that seats about 2000 and is a little on the dry side acoustically. Generally I agree with what you're saying however true fff peaks will break 95db from my seat half way back.
tube-vds has not visited this site since July 2016, so he won't see your comment.
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I have done the exercise of measuring classical concert dB on my phone app and then comparing that to my home listening level. I used the same phone/app so the absolute level doesn't matter.
At home, i listen at around 8-10dB higher than in concert. And that's sitting around row 7-10 at the concert hall. The sound from the real concert is not loud but large and encompassing, with great detail and dynamics. Even pizzicato from cello/doublebass can not only be heard, but felt. I have never experienced that in a home system at comparable level.
If i try to turn down my system to concert level dB then everything sound lifeless.
long way to go in this journey.
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From all reports, Gradient 1.4s deserve consideration in their ability to remove the listening room from the equation and reveal the recording acoustic, being cardioid in response through much of their range.
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I would go with GR Research LS-9 (Line Source), available used only; or GR Research NX-Otica w/Open Baffle subwoofers. Either of these will be more affordable and may best most offerings at many times their price range. The do Classical like nothing I have heard to date (dynamic range, sound staging, layering). Just my experience as I have not heard many of the others mentioned. Also, GR Research is still in business, several of those mentioned are not making updates, repairs difficult.
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If cost is no object, Rockport Technologies makes killer speakers, very articulate and accurate for a whole butt load of money though. ....TAD Evolution One's are awesome for classical.
A good audiophile friend of mine, who has much more disposable income than I do, has Rockports and loves them for classical music (his wife is a violist). I heard Rockports at Axpona last year and thought they were terrific - not showy but sounded just right. He also has TAD Micro Evolution One's in his second system and gives them high praise, although he probably will add REL subwoofers; I imagine the floorstanding Evolution One's would sound great.
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The PSB Imagine T3's are fantastic with classical music, from solos, small chambers, to complete orchestras. They throw a large, wide and deep, sound stage while pinpointing individual players and orchestral sections. You can listen in, analytically, and at the same time, just listen to the emotional beauty and message of the music. These speakers require a lot of power however. IMHO 200 plus watts minimum with a large 2000+ damping factor. I am really enjoying classical music with these in my system.
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Harbeth for me. Neutrality in tonal balance with midrange clarity and detail are a hallmark for their range, with good bass extension for their size.
Just got into Harbeth this year; currently enjoying the C7s and 30.1s.
They're definitely superlative for small-scale classical such as chamber music, piano, etc but I have yet to try them out on full-scale orchestral music. They also shine with acoustic jazz.
The Rockports & TADs mentioned just above would also be speakers I'd own, if money grew on trees like it should!
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Based on reviews like this one:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/revel-m16-speaker-review.11884/
and other reviews easily found, if I could afford only $1000 for a pair of standmounts I would try to include the Revel Concerta 2 M16 in my list of contenders.
If my budget extended to $2000 for the pair I would try to get a listen to the similar but upscale Revel Performa3 M106.
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For classical music it's especially important to find speakers that don't have a rising frequency response above 1kHz. Most classical recordings sound too bright as compared with live performances because they are recorded closer to the violins then would be heard in a concert hall even from front row seats. Speakers with a rising top end exacerbate that problem.
Al