AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Critic's Circle (Equipment Reviews) => Vinyl Gear Reviews => Topic started by: TheChairGuy on 9 Oct 2006, 05:21 am
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....so I'm out enjoying an unusually slow Thursday afternoon last week. I go to a local strip shopping center where there is my Safeway (supermarket), favorite bakery and, don't ya' know it, my local audio shop (World of Music) :wink:
Sooooooo, my interest piqued in the past few weeks as the three cartridges I now have are in some ways each somewhat un-satisfying and talking to the erstwhile salesman (Phillip) there - I bought a Grado Green in the shop.
Maybe it, too, will be unsatisfying, maybe there is no cartridge at any sane price that fits my requirements, but I'm game to try.
Putting it thru break in process, with now about 15 hours on it....it makes nice music for $60.00.
Will report back on it when I have a more accurate and complete picture of it's sonic virtues and/or slights :)
I'm kinda' surprised there isn't more reviews on this cartridge out on the 'net as it's the price point that's probably about tops for folks returning to vinyl or discovering it for the first time. And, Frank van Alstine has been peddling a Longhorn'ed version of it or it's forebears for some 25 years with success. Finally, I had a (modded with damped coils by someone in New Jersey) Grado circa 1987 and on my then table, the original Townshend Rock with an Helius arm...and it had the finest bass reproduction I have ever heard of in a vinyl front end.
What part was cartridge and what part was Townshend Rock (with highly unusual damping trough in front of the headshell) I hope to find out with the Grado Green now.
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Good luck. Many years ago in a previous life I used to work at a place that sold Ortofon, Shure, Audioquest, and Grado for cartridges. The previous version of the green was by far our best seller. It's nothing earth shattering but for the money, it's tough to beat and has a nice top to bottom presentation. I'd agree that it's forte is the bottom end.
Enjoy!
Bryan
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Maybe it, too, will be unsatisfying, maybe there is no cartridge at any sane price that fits my requirements, but I'm game to try.
You're running in circles! :duh:
The X-5 is a budget (yet overpriced) cartridge. I got mine for $115 brand new.
The Blue Point is an experiment in 'floating musicality' with poor tracking and definition (I had one--and never again). I paid something like $150 @ Audio Advisor.
The 440 is another budget cartridge.
The cheaper Grado's are OK, but not special either ( I had a Blue, a friend has a Red ).
My suggestion: call Kevin @ KAB Electroacoustics--tel him your desires... :green:
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PA,
No circles here - just quest for first hand knowledge.
I paid $200 for my Ortofon X5-MC. It does nothing particularly offensive for that $$$ in my mind....but really is too lean to make my hips groove or my head bounce to the tunes. Soundstaging/imaging is oft times wondrous, it is crystal clear, otherwise.
The Blue Point has been re-tipped with a boron van den Hul cantilever...poor tracking is no longer an issue (and the added Longhorn completes a better tracking picture of it); it is some other issue internally not making it a winner. I may find that it is pointing to some other issue in my playback chain...or it may in fact stink for the most part. I'll keep using it and decide.
The AT440ML may be budget priced.....but the microline stylus alone for under $100.00 is a complete rarity. It most closely mimics CD playback - much of the good and some of the bad of it.
And, the Grado Green, now with 15+ hours on it is turning into a very nice performer. Tho you have silicone damping on your Technics 1200 and this surely helps it along, you need to internally damp the coils and add the Longhorn stabilizer to make it perform leagues above it's paltry price. Based on what I've read. I agree with you, the Grado line doesn't markedly/dramatically improve until you get to the $500.00 Sonata......as this model has a better stylus shape than all the others below it. Tho without hearing them, I'm guessing again :dunno:
I totally admire Kevin's work, I've read his site many times, and see nothing in the way of cartridges that appeals to me there now.
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PA,
No circles here - just quest for first hand knowledge.
I paid $200 for my Ortofon X5-MC. It does nothing particularly offensive for that $$$ in my mind....but really is too lean to make my hips groove or my head bounce to the tunes. Soundstaging/imaging is oft times wondrous, it is crystal clear, otherwise.
My stuff's been in storage for almost two years and it recently made its way to the Caribbean. So far I've temporarily set up the DVD and belt drive transport w/ the speakers and a pair of monoblocks. When I set up the 1200 I'm going to install the X-5 and check it out again. I do reallize the tracking is not up to speed (as with most MCs) but it *does* play salsa right. Have it play some 45 RPM dance singles and things do not look good...
The Blue Point has been re-tipped with a boron van den Hul cantilever...poor tracking is no longer an issue (and the added Longhorn completes a better tracking picture of it); it is some other issue internally not making it a winner. I may find that it is pointing to some other issue in my playback chain...or it may in fact stink for the most part. I'll keep using it and decide.
I think the BP is aimed at creating what I despectively name *analog* sound: bloated, slow and not real. I bought mine after busting the stylus of my AT-15S, wanting to try a MC in my system (and not pay what the original AT replacement went for). The Blue Point did not have the detail and musicality of the AT and it was a very poor tracker. Installing a Discwasher Disctracker I had lying around improved things a lot.
The AT440ML may be budget priced.....but the microline stylus alone for under $100.00 is a complete rarity. It most closely mimics CD playback - much of the good and some of the bad of it.
Hey, the 'bad of it' is in the recording, not the medium! :nono:
The stylus is pulling *uneditorialized* information from the grooves. Reality check for you, I'd say... :cry:
If you don't like this then the AT-15S is not for you. It is a stellar performer and I'm going to save my pennies to get a couple NOS stylus for mine.
And, the Grado Green, now with 15+ hours on it is turning into a very nice performer. Tho you have silicone damping on your Technics 1200 and this surely helps it along, you need to internally damp the coils and add the Longhorn stabilizer to make it perform leagues above it's paltry price. Based on what I've read. I agree with you, the Grado line doesn't markedly/dramatically improve until you get to the $500.00 Sonata......as this model has a better stylus shape than all the others below it. Tho without hearing them, I'm guessing again :dunno:
Are you seeing the pattern here? :scratch:
There is a performance:price plateau, regardless of brand. That's why professor Van Alstine can take the Grado Green and slingshot its performance. That's why Kevin mods the Trackmaster and gets even higher performance, too!
I totally admire Kevin's work, I've read his site many times, and see nothing in the way of cartridges that appeals to me there now.
I know, that's why I've been suggesting you to go for older, out of production cartridges like the Stanton 881S and the AT-15S. That's why I searched for a NOS first production Trackmaster I w/ half the coil windings of latter production runs (of the same model). Now I'll have the midrange and HF extension of a $1500 MC. What else could I buy now? :dunno:
Talking to Kevin will help you find a match--don't use Match.com!!! :jester: It's full moon--I can give you a metaphysical prescription to clear your mind and body of these woes...
With psychic power and primal intensity,
Psychicanimal
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Some early, perhaps premature observations about 18 hours run in on it....
1. VTF - I've never had any cartridge so finicky as the Green is about VTF (Vertical Tracking Force). 1.6 grams is too much - it deadens to presentation (like overdamping, but a bit different). 1.4 grams is, literally, too light a presentation, overall; dynamics are too lightweight. 1.5 about right...but about 1.46 to 1.48 is perfect.
WTF - I've never had a cartridge so picky in any recent memory.
2. VTA - I've got it tail down a bit as I've read that's the best place for it. Beats me - I haven't tried it any other angle (no adjustable VTA on the JVC - too bad)
3. Noise - It is a bit noisier in the grooves than other cartridges. Do ellipticals 'plow thru' where line styli and vdH/Geiger shapes leave less a bit less friction on the sidewalls of vinyl? Could be :dunno:
4. Inner Groove Distortion - Almost disqualifies this cartridge entirely. The first 60% of each side sounds quite good - deteriorating slowly into something akin to hell the last tune or final 10-20%. It's quite noticeable - I only hope that I can jiggle some arm geometry or maybe the suspension still needs a bit more breaking it to be fully effective. Hope so, at least. Otherwise, it's a bit of hell as the side winds down each time.
1.6 grams VTF wasn't the answer either - it didn't help the end-of-record distortion....it just overdamped everything.
Any of you Grado guys, or former ones, lend some guidance here on these matters - or others?
Henry/ohenry, you out there :angel:
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Hi TCG,
I've been on a search to obtain better musical performance from my vinyl system. Some 2 years ago i bought a bluenote piccolo turntable which is probably similiar in sound quality to a rega 25 or thereabouts.
I bought a denon dl103 low output cartridge and had numerous problems finding a good quality phonostage to run in my system. I tried the following components with mixed results:
Musical fidelity xlps
perreaux sxv1
bugle phonostage
class cornet phonostage
Using these phonostages in my system i just couldn't get it to sound that good and in fact my cd system sounded much better. I recently bought a demo bluenote de medici phonostage and i'm really enjoying it in my system.
TCG, perhaps you need to have a look at your phonostage to bring better sound to your system.
Regards
Rod
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Hey Rocket.... :)
Yeah, phono stages matter. I really like my Dynaco PAS-4 tube pre with CD...it helps tame the nasties :)
I have a very nice Musical Surroundings Phenomena phono amp with battery power supply (HUGELY upgraded with a low inductance Revelation Audio Labs power cord/umbilical) and I DO like the Grado better with it (run into the Dynaco...which, unfortunately, softens it on the way out to the amps). But, it naturally loses a bit of luster from the additional processing step and on into the Dynaco outputs. Tubes with vinyl, for me, sounds too soft...yet is beneficial for CD to me.
The Grado is unique among Moving Magnets/Iron type cartridges, as it only has 45mH of inductance, rendering it not effected by additional capacitive loads in the pre-amplification chain as all others of this type are.
Maybe, just maybe I run a 'dedicated' phonostage with (Endler, or other) attenuators for vinyl playback...and reserve the Dynaco for CD duties. Not the worst idea in the world I think :scratch:
Funny, all those years of listening to phono on SS equipment years ago and I never had any fatigue. CD comes along as suddenly you need tubes to bear it :wink:
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Some early, perhaps premature observations about 18 hours run in on it....
4. Inner Groove Distortion - Almost disqualifies this cartridge entirely. The first 60% of each side sounds quite good - deteriorating slowly into something akin to hell the last tune or final 10-20%. It's quite noticeable - I only hope that I can jiggle some arm geometry or maybe the suspension still needs a bit more breaking it to be fully effective. Hope so, at least. Otherwise, it's a bit of hell as the side winds down each time.
Any of you Grado guys, or former ones, lend some guidance here on these matters - or others?
Henry/ohenry, you out there :angel:
I had the same issue with a Grado gold cartridge on my Technics 1200. Never could get it to play the last track or two without distortion.
Andy
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CD comes along as suddenly you need tubes to bear it :wink:
Not in my 100% SS system. :nono:
Fact of life: live music is harsh.
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Well, it's playing better each day now...about 25 hours in on it.
I don't at least notice inside groove distortion now....a combination of break-in and dialing in the anti-skate seemed to do the trick. This is really a fussy cartridge - waaaaaay fussier than it should be for $60.00. I mean, most folks spending $60.00 for a cartridge won't futz with it to get it right and will assume it's not that capable. Turns out it's very capable (at least, with the Longhorn attached and coils damped and all geometries right).
Not that it's unusual for this cartridge to have a different setting than the tracking force (which is about 1.47 near as I can tell). I've never had cartridge that needed anywhere near 100% of tracking force, usually it's in the 60-70% area. The Green is about at 66.67% now and is spot-on.
What a fussy beetch it is, tho, for $60.00...but worthwhile if you do :)
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John,
I've been running the Grado Green on a Sumiko MMT and haven't encountered too many issues except that I stay up too late listening. I did need to set the VTA to slightly "tail down" to smooth out the highs and I had it tracking at 1.5 grams. I didn't have a problem with tracking the innermost grooves, so I don't have any guidance regarding that issue.
I'm currently playing around with a Grado Platinum on that arm and it's behaving similarly to the Green regarding set up. One thing I noticed last night with the Platinum was that the surface noise was as quiet as I've witnessed; and of course, that female vocal magic the Grados seem to do. I'll know more when it gets more playing time under its belt.
I'll have to pay more attention to the Grado on my girlfriend's Technics, but I haven't noticed that "last song" tracking problem in the past. :scratch: Admittedly, I don't listen very critically when I'm over there and vinyl isn't played as much as CDs.
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Henry,
Cool insights :thumb:
Your Green also has the Longhorn mod - it may well have nulled that aspect of it's performance if yo set it up right, too.
I don't notice the inner groove distortion now....I think much had to do with either A. Break-in or B, Dialing in the right anti-skating figure.
Funny, I haven't found the oft mentioned female voice thing to be the Grado's strong suit yet....I', just finding it equally adept at all music inputs. It doesn't do anything particularly better than any other cartridge of recent memory, it just doesn't do anything terribly badly - which other cartridges I've owned have been neglectful of.
As for the perceived lack of air relative to moving coils, it's true, but I'm not always sure the 'air' I hear in moving coils is real or not. The moving iron design of Grado does have a bit more soundstaging / imaging compared to moving magnets, but not quite as much as moving coils. It doesn't give me 'chills' when listening to it - akin to being in a haunted house when a moving coil plays - but it seems more midway a design between typical moving magnets and coils :)
As I've found issues with both magnets and coils before, this Grado Green's neutrality in most areas is becoming most welcome. For $60.00 - set up with amazing detail and care - it makes great music (with the Longhorn attached). Too bad the vast majority of folks will never milk it for what it can do as the $60.00 crowd won't generally do the things necessary to make it sing.
Ya' know, that Cartridge Man over in the UK, with his Music Maker, may well have cracked the DNA of this cartridge right well. He likely buys $180.00 Grado Gold's, adds an aluminum line stylus, damps the internals a bit and gets $995 retail for them and everybody sings his praises.
His newest Music Maker Classic is even slicker - he probably buys $60 Green models, replaces the copper coils with silver wire, adds the line stylus, damps the internals and, oola, gets $1700.00 retail (probably $850.00 wholesale) for it :!: (they gratuitiously throw in a $150.00 'isolator' that might have $5 in materials to it) :wink:
Nonetheless, he probably cracked the DNA on this cartridge - it needs to track better and the internals need to be damped (to lessen microphonics). The Longhorn mod and damping trough with a competent tonearm probably accomplishes a considerable % of what the addition of a line stylus achieves at $$$ hundreds less.
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As for the perceived lack of air relative to moving coils, it's true, but I'm not always sure the 'air' I hear in moving coils is real or not.
"What you pay for in a great phono cartridge is desirable interpretations. The interpretation and presentation of the recording is in the hands of the cartridge and the best ones will interpret recordings with air, space, dynamics and shimmer that result in a completely holographic soundstage with depths in the hundreds of feet. You sit there and wonder how in the hell the recording engineers managed to capture such marvelous presence and depth. They didn't. In fact it's likely that the actual engineers that mixed down the recording wouldn't know what I'm talking about. No, it's the cartridge. A good moving coil cartridge adds these illusions, or puts back a lot of what was squashed out during the recording process. It's a mechanical device governed by the laws of physics that resonates and excites the information into electrical energy."
Excerpt from The potential fidelity of CD's vs. LP's by Steve Deckert.
http://www.decware.com/paper20.htm (http://www.decware.com/paper20.htm)
Just some food for thought...:scratch:
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Good insight from Steve Deckert - thanks for pointing me/us in that direction :thumb:
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I don't think you can expect to achieve the level of playback quality that Mr. Deckert describes w/o investing in what he describes as " a respectable MC cartridge and appropriate arm and table WITH THE RIGHT ELECTRONICS ." The right electronics , of course , being those that he manufactures. In any event, it would be unrealistic to expect that kind of performance from a $60 cart.
The current darling of the Asylum is the Denon DL-103 which can be found on Ebay for $148 delivered. It is a LOMC that has very low compliance, thus requiring a medium to high mass arm. It also tracks around 2.5 gms but at the price, there is simply nothing that competes w/ it. You will need lots of gain in the phono section as well.
I run a AT-OC9 ML/ll on my KAB modded Technics 1200 MKII and it is a very nice cart for $279 plus shipping. I have the Eastern Electric Minimax phono section with it and I highly recommend both pieces. I did an absurd amount of internet research before making this leap. Check it out for yourselves.
It has good compliance and I set VTF @ 1.7 gms. The longevity of my vinyl is a consideration and I just can't get my head around low compliance and high tracking forces but many are seemingly not troubled by this. The OC-9 tracks as well as any MM I have tried. Surface noise is rarely an issue with this setup. A good record cleaning machine is almost a necessity and clean records and a clean stylus are essential.
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I just finished rehabbing my 2nd AR-XA turntable this morning, and I may say it has turned out looking almost brand new, with brand new performance. I have followed the wisdom of Frank Van Alstine, of course, but I use the Chair Guys Slick 50 in the platter well. I have learned a lesson; to toss the Haydon motor from the AR as most that I have bought have lost their power or have one form of aliment or another. So, I have sourced the motor that is used in the VPI Scout. It's a big honker, fairly quite, well made and should last along time.
Now the big dilemma is what cartridge? I was actually thinking of the Grado Green, but with what I'm reading here, I don't know. I suppose I could put another AT440MLa in this one, but I have been accused of being an AT440 pimp by someone at AC already, ha, ha :rotflmao:
I put a Shure m97xe in it for now, but what an unamusing cartridge, especially compared to the AT440. Of course, I want the best bang for the buck as that was the goal by the people at AR back in the late 60's, so what is a mother to do?
I have noticed with all of the AR's that the tone arm is a slight bit sluggish in the vertical plane. I can tell when it's time to dial in VTF. Unlike my Empire arm which can zip all over everywhere (up and down, side to side), and maybe that's the problem with that tone arm...it's too loose!
Maybe a Grado Green with a 2" Longhorn? :scratch:
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Wayner,
I think the Longhorn is a 1.5" section...at least, that's what I remember and have cut my stabilizer to.
I have to put my AT440ML in again and compare now that I have optimized the Grado Green (or, at least think so :|). I can tell you that the Grado is a lot easier to listen to for hours on end than the AT...but, then again, I have the prior 440ML/OCC model.
If you're happy with the AT, why not use it, tho?
Post those pics.... :wink:
And, there's nothin wrong with pimpin' if you have no stake in it's success....I've been called a 'ho by colleagues for pimpin' my chairs in the business world.....but that's what I do and it's clear that is my intention :)
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I know the standard for the longhorn is 1.5", but I remember the audio basics saying that longer Longhorns seemed to improve even more, until the lenght got too stupid.
I can listen to the AT440 for hours with the AR and every time I fire it up, it sounds even better! It must be the combination of turntable and cartridge.
Maybe I will buy another AT and Longhorn that one.
Thanks TCG.
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Hey, I just threw on my AT440ML for comparo, and no doubt about it, it's harder to listen to for long periods of time vs. the Grado Green.
But, it is so much more dynamic, faster with great snap, it's almost worth sitting thru :|
I was thinking in the last week since changing over to the Grado how less dynamic that vinyl is versus CD...but the AT shored that difference up right quick. It's got the snap of CD's...alas, it also has a few of the same nasties involved in playback.
You got a winner, Wayner, if they tamed the nasties a bit in the updated At440MLa version. Mine has this unflappable constitution about it that says 'I'm a $300.00+ cartridge'...if the 440MLa has this AND is more forgiving on the ears - why not use it?
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As a long-time Grado fan...just a few comments:
- upgrading to a Red is worth the extra $50 bucks if you like a bit more 'snap'; while still enjoying the famous Grado midrange. The Gold is a bit more lively yet and is a great cartridge.
- the wood bodies really do help to reduce 'groove noise' . (you do, however, give up the replaceable stylus feature) The Sonata is more 'lively' than the Platinum.
- Grado's will work okay in an AR turntable, but not as well as a Shure or AT. Grado's require a bit of tweaking that an AR arm doesn't provide. VTA, for example. Some report hum with Grado's; but I've never experienced any.
A lot of getting great sound with vinyl is synergy. A good cartridge/arm/'table 'match'; set-up; isolation; and lastly; a phono amp that compliments the cartridge. Not surprisingly, the Grado phono amp is really super with Grado cartridges. It doesn't cost enough to get recommendations from the vinyl 'snobs', but it is sublime with Grado cartridges. Really.
WEEZ
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Good insight from Steve Deckert - thanks for pointing me/us in that direction :thumb:
No problem. I see what you are going through. Thing is I started doing it a few decades ago when I was in high school. A friend of my father was into high end and helped me in the beginning. Got to hear the 'flavor of the month' cartridges on a Technics SP-10, later on a SOTA vaccum. I also worked on a very hip audio/record store when I was 20 & got to do a lot of TT setups. The owners were concert promoters so we got to meet quite a few people in show business. Having FUN was part of the deal. To this date, that FUN is part of my audio experience. It is not a distant one like the typical high end audio customer... :nono:
I don't think you can expect to achieve the level of playback quality that Mr. Deckert describes w/o investing in what he describes as " a respectable MC cartridge and appropriate arm and table WITH THE RIGHT ELECTRONICS ." The right electronics , of course , being those that he manufactures. In any event, it would be unrealistic to expect that kind of performance from a $60 cart.
So, the ones he doesn't manufacture anymore would also be out. He used to praise monoblock amps' ability to anchor vocals in the center. There's no more Decware monoblock models for sale. My system uses four monoblocks for mini monitors and subs--oh well...
The current darling of the Asylum is the Denon DL-103 which can be found on Ebay for $148 delivered. It is a LOMC that has very low compliance, thus requiring a medium to high mass arm. It also tracks around 2.5 gms but at the price, there is simply nothing that competes w/ it. You will need lots of gain in the phono section as well.
I run a AT-OC9 ML/ll on my KAB modded Technics 1200 MKII and it is a very nice cart for $279 plus shipping. I have the Eastern Electric Minimax phono section with it and I highly recommend both pieces. I did an absurd amount of internet research before making this leap. Check it out for yourselves.
It has good compliance and I set VTF @ 1.7 gms. The longevity of my vinyl is a consideration and I just can't get my head around low compliance and high tracking forces but many are seemingly not troubled by this. The OC-9 tracks as well as any MM I have tried. Surface noise is rarely an issue with this setup. A good record cleaning machine is almost a necessity and clean records and a clean stylus are essential.
Plowing vinyl @ 2.5 g with a radial diamond tip is a crime. :duh:
From a technical standpoint, MCs, especially the low output ones provide special challenges and weaknesses:
1) Trackability
2) Noise
3) Dynamics
Even in my system, which uses about $7K (list) worth of noise filtration equipment I would really think twice before going to a low output MC. If I did I would use a set up transformer and start with the Audio Technica OC9. I have tried/heard quite a few cartridges, the OC9 being an excellent cartridge. Perhaps some of the Ortofon LO MCs would work well in my modded 1200, too. Perhaps.
I posted Steve Deckert's excerpt and link to provide insights, a direction for those who choose so and promote debate. I strongly disagree w/ his views. Such a setup is against two of my axioms:
Nearfield is the ticket to intimacy.
Vinyl and digital should sound as close to each other as possible.
Perhaps this should be the begginning of a new topic... :thumb:
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John, TCG,
Here is photo of newly refurbished AR. Of course, the inner plater is stuffed with plasticlay and there are dabs of it here and there on the inside, under the plinth. The VPI motor starts the plater in about 1/2 of a second..almost scary. I will listen to the Shure for awhile before buying a cartridge. For AR-XA owners, notice the arm rest. A piece of aluminum tubing cut 1.38" long that has a clearance I.D. of the arm rest stem, will strengthen the rest by a factor of 10. To Grado or not to Grado is the final question.
The Granite AR is coming next, need a motor but if this motor pans out, I will source the same one again.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=7630)
Wayner
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Wayner, that is a fine example of a true classic!
:thumb:
WEEZ
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you need to internally damp the coils and add the Longhorn stabilizer to make it perform leagues above it's paltry price.
Chairguy,
What procedure, do you use to "internally damp" the coils?
Tim
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It's all here, xlrider....
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=24666.0
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I set the $50 JVC up again and found....I like it better then the $750.00 VPI rig :thumb: No surprise, but I just keep hoping the preferences switch for that kinda' spread of difference in coin / $$$.
Anyhow, I sprayed the underside of the JVC platter (that's already had a good damping with Plast-i-Clay) with Dupli-Color UnderCoat and Sound Eliminator (model UC103). It's pretty much the same stuff that Dynamat and others want to charge 2-3x as much for. It cost me $7.50 a can online.
Anyhow, the quiet-kote stuff I've bought at Parts Express (at 2x the cost) has been very helpful quieting my hatchback area in my SAAB. So, why not use it to damp the cheap, ringing platter? Particularly as the motor is directly connected to the platter in a DD, both the weak and bright spot in those particular designs, it would seem to be particularly helpful.
Yowsa! - what a neat upgrade with the Grado Green...not as pronounced with the AT. As many know, Grado's are not recommended for DD tables as they have tendency to hum on them; gradually gettign worse as it tracks to the end (as it gets closer to the inherently motor right underneath the delicate stylus). The hum is due to microphonics (not lack of shielding as many believe). Well, between the damped coils a la van Alstine, Plast-i-Clay in the underside ribs of the platter, SoundCoat on the underside and topside, a old Audioquest sorbothane platter mat with a (thin) Griptex underlay carper mat on top of that in contact with the record (the Audioquest mat damps the platter quite well, but is horrible in contact with the record, so I use the Griptex and kindly buffer), 9 lbs of Plast-i-Clay within and without, damping trough and now a solid coat of Dupli-Color UC103, the platter no longer rings and that Grado really sings. The midrange is glorious and the top and bottom are solid, airy and effortless.
I got the idea to add the UC103 when I read that Denon's new DD deck has a rubberized (pretty much what the UC103 is - viscoelastic and gooey - like melted rubber)bottom surface to minimize 'howling'. And, my VPI platter is encased in rubber and cork for good damping of this all important playing surface.
It sounds amazing now; far preferred to the AT440ML now - which sounds very dynamic, but shrill and cheap in comparison.
The Grado is an amazing value for $60.00, but THE VAST MAJORITY OF FOLKS THAT BUY IT WON'T BE MANAGING ALL OF IT'S TWEEKY PARAMETERS TO GET THE MOST FROM IT. It'll only hint at what it can do unless you really work every angle on it, damp those coils, add the Longhorn and make sure your deck and platter are well isolated from micro and macro vibrations as those inherently microphonic coils will pick it up otherwise. Then again, if you do everything to greatly minimize those vibrations, those same delicate coils will pick up music from your grooves that is simply awe-inspiring for $60.00.
What a hoot - the cheapest cartridge I own is my favorite...ditto for the table. This audiophool affliction gets cheaper by the week :)
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Does that mean I can't pimp the AT440MLa anymore? :bawl:
W
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Does that mean I can't pimp the AT440MLa anymore? :bawl:
W
Nahhhh - pimp it if you love it - I have the old version AT440ML/OCC as you remember. It does seem like AT made a bevy of changes that might've tamed the nasties on the newer version.
I'm just really enjoying the Grado Green right now...but it is a truly fussy so-and-so to get it juuuust right.
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It does seem like AT made a bevy of changes that might've tamed the nasties on the newer version.
Yeah, like overdamping the bass. Way to go! :nono:
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PA,
If ya' haven't heard it, how can you know? Or, have you heard it?
Hey - I just bought a new, higher spec,JVC DD (scored on ebay) with (among other things) much better arm (vertical and horizontal q damping within the arm and an oversized, 4 lb platter). FG Servo, nice heft, heavy platter, built-in damping - better than a damping trough as it damps in both planes. Well made overall - a model ql-f6 (my 'q's don't capitalize on my keyboard now, sorry!).
I paid $100.00 for it and, get this, it came with a nifty ADC XLM Mk. III cartridge (with a bit of stylus life left, to boot). I was waiting for this particular model to come up for a while, and UP it did.
So, I'm readying it now and will comment on it's performance. Played for about an hour last night and I can say it played the most satisfying bass I've heard since the Townshend Rock TT graced my listening room 18 years ago. It wasn't quantity, it was that elusive quality of bass that was most appealing.
Ah, but another topic to begin a new soon....
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Ohhhh, forgot to mention - I more closely electrically damped the Grado yesterday. With all capacitance added up along the way (about 550 pf including the 300 pf load at the phono pre-amp), along with the inductance of 45 mH that Grado's have, the resonant frequency is about 10 (Hagerman has a great online calculator for figuring it out if anyone is interested - and you should be). I only have choice of 2k or 50k on my phono pre-amp...and WAS using it at 50K.
Well, I changed that to 2K (closer to ideal for the Grado) and, my, what spaciousness erupted forth from the little Grado. I can well imagine how much better it performs at a 10k input - the 'correct' place for it.
My thanks to Mr. van Alstine for teaching me that important facet of performance, too :thumb:
See Frank, I do listen :wink:
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PA,
If ya' haven't heard it, how can you know? Or, have you heard it?
Can't hear everything... :nono:
Got to have trusted sources! :wink:
I have this analog guru--he's really into MM's and has first hand extensive product knowledge (John Nantais, wrote the Lenco threasds on Audiogon). His comment about overdamping newer AT models makes sense, though. Take a look at their mounting system (from the bottom) vs that of Shure & Stanton. Now compare the sound. There's got to be a way to help the AT's bass response. I'm thinking... :scratch:
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Quick question. I own a Monster Alpha 1 and 2 cartridge, both with broken cantelevers. Although they are MC, how do you think they would stack up with todays offerings, both MC and MM.
Thanks in advance.
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Hey Steve,
Never heard them. Seems to me the cartridge of yore, when turntables sold in the tens of millions yearly, were made with more care and rationally priced than today's offerings. As it is with any tiny niche, you pay to play more as the niche gets smaller as there is less economy of scale. In other words, you get less for more money.
With turntables sales now worldwide perhaps in the tens of thousands only, and many of those are DJ-specific tables, the offerings are high priced indeed.
In the past 20 years I am not aware of any major breakthrough in cartridge design, MM or MC.
So, based on empirical evidence alone, your Monster Cable's may indeed be worth re-tipping (if they haven't gotten rotted rubber dampers inside). It's $250.00 for a good ruby cantilever and line stylus from www.Sound-Smith.com.
However, at that price, you can still find real quality MC's from Audio-Technica, Denon, and maybe a few others....and several good MM choices still from AT, Ortofon, and Grado.
But, in plain answer of your original question for you plain-talk Midwest types :wink: they probably stack up just fine.
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Some early, perhaps premature observations about 18 hours run in on it....
1. VTF - I've never had any cartridge so finicky as the Green is about VTF (Vertical Tracking Force). 1.6 grams is too much - it deadens to presentation (like overdamping, but a bit different). 1.4 grams is, literally, too light a presentation, overall; dynamics are too lightweight. 1.5 about right...but about 1.46 to 1.48 is perfect.
WTF - I've never had a cartridge so picky in any recent memory.
2. VTA - I've got it tail down a bit as I've read that's the best place for it. Beats me - I haven't tried it any other angle (no adjustable VTA on the JVC - too bad)
3. Noise - It is a bit noisier in the grooves than other cartridges. Do ellipticals 'plow thru' where line styli and vdH/Geiger shapes leave less a bit less friction on the sidewalls of vinyl? Could be :dunno:
4. Inner Groove Distortion - Almost disqualifies this cartridge entirely. The first 60% of each side sounds quite good - deteriorating slowly into something akin to hell the last tune or final 10-20%. It's quite noticeable - I only hope that I can jiggle some arm geometry or maybe the suspension still needs a bit more breaking it to be fully effective. Hope so, at least. Otherwise, it's a bit of hell as the side winds down each time.
1.6 grams VTF wasn't the answer either - it didn't help the end-of-record distortion....it just overdamped everything.
Any of you Grado guys, or former ones, lend some guidance here on these matters - or others?
Henry/ohenry, you out there :angel:
John, item 4 was the problem I was having as well. However, with my new Harmon Kardon T25 turntable, the Grado Green Longhorn sounds fantastic. We were listening to it last night and damn. It's close to the Empire. I'm tracking at 1.5 grams as well.
W
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John,
I have found specifications for my Harmon/Kardon T25 with regards to arm weight which is stated at 11 grams. The AVA Grado Green Longhorn in this turntable is blowing me away. I'm listening to my favorite albums today and I hear things I've never heard before. I had this cartridge mounted in my Empire, the VPI and an AR and it always sounded like it had some weird tracking issues. I just can't figure out the physics of why the HK makes this cartridge sound so good other than the arm is what I would call a light weight and the Grado likes that for some reason. The T25 is telling me that it is very happy by the way it sings. If I knew the answers, maybe VPI or somebody like that would want to hire me as a designer, ha, ha.
Do you have any specifications on your tables arm weight? let me know and maybe we can get a theroy going here.
W
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Nope, no arm weight noted Wayner.
Says effective range should be 13-20 grams including headshell.
The Japanese tubular arms of that era were generally light to medium weight arms. With a CU figure of 20, the Grado should work best with medium weight arms (not the lighter ones like you have). But, often proof is in the listening :)
Besides, my arm has internal vertical and horizontal damping....making it a near match for any cartridge.
Ultimately, I found the trackign wanting in the Grado and it was 'gritty' (not as clear as most) sounding. But, there was something intriguing about it that I can't shake. I need to reinstall and re-evaluate one day.
I've been breaking in a NOS ADC TRX-1 recently (now with about 20 hours on it and sounding pleasant). It too, is of Moving Iron principle, so maybe there is something to that type of cartridge that makes them very inviting cartridges.
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Then I don't think the riddle is solved. I can't believe it's in the vertical or horizontal pivot bearings. I think the Grado's don't like the heavier arms. :scratch:
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Grados do not like heavy arms. At all.
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Thanks Chairguy. Much appreciated.
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Hi,
I just thought that I'd mention that I'd seen various web pages selling the Grado Green, Black, Red, etc. and other Grado's, where they listed a warning not to use them in the Rega and Technics TT's due to excessive hum. I like the sound of Grado carts, but then again, I have an AR XA, and also a modified XA ( I installed a carbon fiber Japanese arm ) and I can't use the Grado's in either set, due to massive hum. So I'd nix buyin' the Green to put in the AR.
-Steven
I just finished rehabbing my 2nd AR-XA turntable this morning, and I may say it has turned out looking almost brand new, with brand new performance. I have followed the wisdom of Frank Van Alstine, of course, but I use the Chair Guys Slick 50 in the platter well. I have learned a lesson; to toss the Haydon motor from the AR as most that I have bought have lost their power or have one form of aliment or another. So, I have sourced the motor that is used in the VPI Scout. It's a big honker, fairly quite, well made and should last along time.
Now the big dilemma is what cartridge? I was actually thinking of the Grado Green, but with what I'm reading here, I don't know. I suppose I could put another AT440MLa in this one, but I have been accused of being an AT440 pimp by someone at AC already, ha, ha :rotflmao:
I put a Shure m97xe in it for now, but what an unamusing cartridge, especially compared to the AT440. Of course, I want the best bang for the buck as that was the goal by the people at AR back in the late 60's, so what is a mother to do?
I have noticed with all of the AR's that the tone arm is a slight bit sluggish in the vertical plane. I can tell when it's time to dial in VTF. Unlike my Empire arm which can zip all over everywhere (up and down, side to side), and maybe that's the problem with that tone arm...it's too loose!
Maybe a Grado Green with a 2" Longhorn? :scratch:
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Gee ChairGuy
If you're got that much inner groove distortion maybe the cartridge isn't properly aligned for your arm ( or some other problem ) ???
Now to be honest, I haven't tried this but I bet if you bought five identical carts and mounted them five different ways in the headshells, - one 2mm too forward, one 2mm to far back, one 2mm too high, and one 2mm too far down, and one mounted exactly as it should be, for a given tone arm, all aligned with proper azmuth, and playing at the optimum tracking weight to give the proper tracking angle...
When you listen, one would likely have bad treble ( too much or too little ), one would be massively distorted in the inner grooves, one would be sterile sounding, one would sound sucked out, and one would be satisfying. :duh:
As for noise, well, I think if a record has been played with one type of conical or elliptical cartridge, it may have shoved all the grit and grime into a particular area of the groove. The play it with another type of stylus, which may read higher or lower in the groove, and it picks up all the noise making garbage... So yeah, that's easy... to see why. I have one old cart I love which is soooo... quiet in the groove, just happens to be right I guess.
That said, I just got a new ( 33 y/o ) Thorens TD-145c TT earlier this week, I still haven't hooked it up at this point, but it came with a google of cartridges. :thumb:
Six of the twelve cartridges appear to be in good physical condition, and hopefully proper working order. The bunch includes several carts ( low hours use I was told ) that I always, always wanted. :drool:
So over the next few months, if I have the time, I'll be comparing various vintage cartridges and such. In only two instances where I already had two identical carts could I compare equally between my Modified AR ( and the original AR... but uh why ? ) and now the Thorens 145c. So next I get one of those little digital pocket scales to use as a Stylus Pressure gauge.
-Steven
Well, it's playing better each day now...about 25 hours in on it.
I don't at least notice inside groove distortion now....a combination of break-in and dialing in the anti-skate seemed to do the trick. This is really a fussy cartridge - waaaaaay fussier than it should be for $60.00. I mean, most folks spending $60.00 for a cartridge won't futz with it to get it right and will assume it's not that capable. Turns out it's very capable (at least, with the Longhorn attached and coils damped and all geometries right).
Not that it's unusual for this cartridge to have a different setting than the tracking force (which is about 1.47 near as I can tell). I've never had cartridge that needed anywhere near 100% of tracking force, usually it's in the 60-70% area. The Green is about at 66.67% now and is spot-on.
What a fussy beetch it is, tho, for $60.00...but worthwhile if you do :)
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Steven,
It's a long topic....but, on page 2 or 3, at about 25 hours on it, I noted that the the inner groove distortion that plagued the Grado Green earlier seemed to dissipate with a bit more jiggling of the arm geometry. It's awfully tweeky cartridge for one that is intended for newbies and it's awfully tweeky for one with an elliptical tip.
Still, it doesn't quite measure up to the higher standards of resolution (it's a bit gritty), clarity and tracking performance of the AT440ML/OCC and ADC TRX-1 that I have. If you look under magnification at the stylus one can see clearly it's cheaper than the AT and ADC's. A cheap cantilever/bonded diamond could make a meaningful differnce and the Grado doesn't measure up in these key areas of performance perhaps becasue of it. The Red and the Gold, etc, have better stylus' and may in fact be larger step-ups in the line than I would have thought initially.
I'll try it again one day and see if my tastes change any :)
btw, I ran it in a JVC QL-A2 and JVC QL-F6 direct drive tables and there was no hum issue at all.
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Well most people have a few of this and a few of that over the years, you've mentioned four sets and I'm just not familiar with those JVC TT's, nor have I ever heard of the ADC TRX-1 cart. I've got an ADC XLM MKII - which ain't bad, but still not one of my fav's.
The google of carts I just got includes: a Micro-Acoustics 2002e, that I've always wanted :) also their later MA-3002 :D and the CD-4 version, the QDC-1e. Also present was an Empire 2000Z which might be interesting, and a Shure V15 type III. Among the rest, just some middle of the road stuff: a Teledyne PC-550 (which to me resembles a middle of the line Ortofon MM). aa Also an Acutex (ugly and massive looking), a Stanton (was their 880S a high-end one ? its cantilever looks way too short compared to the other Stantons I've seen); an AT-13Ea (which looks like the cantilever is a bit bent upward); an Ortofon VMS20E MKII (which looks to me like the diamond is pointing 10-20 degrees off perpendicular); an M95ED that looks a bit grungy, and a B&O MMC20en, whose diamond is missing and cantilever is curled like a pretzel (whoa!). :duh: So I got like 5, or maybe 6 good vintage carts out of 12.
Prior to getting this Thorens TT and carts, my fav cartridge is the older "low mass" nude diamond B&O SP-12a - the one that looks like the nose of the the Concorde. It has a really long and thin diameter cantilever (but not as long or thin as on the MA-2002e) and the B&O is a very heavy, massive cartridge! I actually had to attach a ceramic magnet about an inch and a quarter in diameter and its metal keeper to the rear of the adjustment counterweight on that CF Arm, just to get the SP-12a to balance. One would think that such an unusually massive cartridge in a really lightweight CF arm is a total no-no... But I guess it breaks the laws of physics, its as totally a perfect combination as I've ever encountered. Who Knew ? :scratch:
-Steven
Steven,
It's a long topic....but, on page 2 or 3, at about 25 hours on it, I noted that the the inner groove distortion that plagued the Grado Green earlier seemed to dissipate with a bit more jiggling of the arm geometry. It's awfully tweeky cartridge for one that is intended for newbies and it's awfully tweeky for one with an elliptical tip.
Still, it doesn't quite measure up to the higher standards of resolution (it's a bit gritty), clarity and tracking performance of the AT440ML/OCC and ADC TRX-1 that I have. If you look under magnification at the stylus one can see clearly it's cheaper than the AT and ADC's. A cheap cantilever/bonded diamond could make a meaningful differnce and the Grado doesn't measure up in these key areas of performance perhaps becasue of it. The Red and the Gold, etc, have better stylus' and may in fact be larger step-ups in the line than I would have thought initially.
I'll try it again one day and see if my tastes change any :)
btw, I ran it in a JVC QL-A2 and JVC QL-F6 direct drive tables and there was no hum issue at all.
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Some early, perhaps premature observations about 18 hours run in on it....
1. VTF - I've never had any cartridge so finicky as the Green is about VTF (Vertical Tracking Force). 1.6 grams is too much - it deadens to presentation (like overdamping, but a bit different). 1.4 grams is, literally, too light a presentation, overall; dynamics are too lightweight. 1.5 about right...but about 1.46 to 1.48 is perfect.
WTF - I've never had a cartridge so picky in any recent memory.
2. VTA - I've got it tail down a bit as I've read that's the best place for it. Beats me - I haven't tried it any other angle (no adjustable VTA on the JVC - too bad)
3. Noise - It is a bit noisier in the grooves than other cartridges. Do ellipticals 'plow thru' where line styli and vdH/Geiger shapes leave less a bit less friction on the sidewalls of vinyl? Could be :dunno:
4. Inner Groove Distortion - Almost disqualifies this cartridge entirely. The first 60% of each side sounds quite good - deteriorating slowly into something akin to hell the last tune or final 10-20%. It's quite noticeable - I only hope that I can jiggle some arm geometry or maybe the suspension still needs a bit more breaking it to be fully effective. Hope so, at least. Otherwise, it's a bit of hell as the side winds down each time.
1.6 grams VTF wasn't the answer either - it didn't help the end-of-record distortion....it just overdamped everything.
Any of you Grado guys, or former ones, lend some guidance here on these matters - or others?
Henry/ohenry, you out there :angel:
Don't know how far back you go in audio, but I have a MicroAccoustics cartridge if I can find it in storage. The cantalever seems to be in good shape. Extremely flat down to 20HZ a little noisy on the grooves. If I can find it, you're welcome to try it. Has very little time on it. Switched over to a Denon 10D MC cartridge.
Regards,
Ray
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Ha - I just called over to Grado.
I didn't get John Grado, but I think I was talking to John Chiapas...the long time (70+ year old) engineer there.
He said that in almost every instance if your equipment is good, the 1.5mv version will work as well as (and sound a bit better as DC resistance is lower) than the 4.0 model.
It was the most refreshingly honest phone call I've had in a while. NY'ers tend to be that way. He further said (and I quote nearly verbatim):
* At age 43, my hearing is on the downhill slide anyhow. If you're rich and don't care, trade up in the line. Otherwise, enjoy what you have.
* The Grado Green is already offering up 90% of the vinyl experience. It's up to me to decide how much the other 10% is worth.
* If I'm happy with the Green, then stick with it until the stylus falls off. If not fully happy, decide to pay more.
When I told him that I have the Green, and gravitate towards it more than any other over time, but that I do hear higher levels of resolution (ie, greater clarity) in other cartridges...but not the same wholeness as I do with Grados, he said:
*Then buy the Silver/Gold. With my hearing on a downhill at age 43, it's not gonna' matter much soon.
Never once did he advocate moving up to the Woodie series directly...either 1.5 or 4.0 output versions. I know it is only his opinion, but interestingly, he's the guy that helped Joe and now John Grado design all of them. Remember, Joe Grado (and probably this guy, too) were responsible for many of the early patents on moving coils - the now preferred choice of most audiophiles. So, it's a fairly STRONG and important opinion :wink:
He told me he traveled the country with Joe Grado playing music - Joe was an Opera singer and all of their cartridges re-produce music.
As I said - a most refreshing and charming phone call it was :lol:
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Wait a minute... this guy is telling you to be content with what you like and own? :scratch: That's just perverse. :lol:
I have the 1.5mv version of the Platinum and it does reveal a little more information and seems a little quieter that the trusty Green. Is it worth four Greens? Nope. If I were doing it again, I'd probably look for a low output Gold and tweak it. No big regrets on the Platinum, it was only $80 bucks more than the Gold (I got a really good deal).
These carts are a bit addictive after a while. They do so many things right, and Frank's tweaks make them even better. That's why I wonder if the tweaked Gold wouldn't outperform my low-end woodie. Wait another minute, that didn't come out exactly right! :oops:
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I've never heard about tweaking Grados. Who is this Frank? Van Alstine?
Modifying carts is a new concept for me. What do they do in a mod?
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http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=24666.0
I've never heard about tweaking Grados. Who is this Frank? Van Alstine?
Modifying carts is a new concept for me. What do they do in a mod?
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Hey Henry!
What lo output Gold are you talking about....I know of only their 4.0mv product? Do tell.....
John / TCG
Wait a minute... this guy is telling you to be content with what you like and own? :scratch: That's just perverse. :lol:
I have the 1.5mv version of the Platinum and it does reveal a little more information and seems a little quieter that the trusty Green. Is it worth four Greens? Nope. If I were doing it again, I'd probably look for a low output Gold and tweak it. No big regrets on the Platinum, it was only $80 bucks more than the Gold (I got a really good deal).
These carts are a bit addictive after a while. They do so many things right, and Frank's tweaks make them even better. That's why I wonder if the tweaked Gold wouldn't outperform my low-end woodie. Wait another minute, that didn't come out exactly right! :oops:
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Hey John,
I assumed the silver/gold had the low output option (I honestly thought I saw that somewhere, I guess I dreamed it :oops:). I'd still try the tweaked Gold as I stated before.
I'll let you know if I have that dream again and how it sounded through my 20 yr old ears. If I'm dreaming, why not make it good. :)
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Hey, why not throw a vintage Jaclyn Smith in that dream, too, for better measure. :wink:
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Hi Guys,
Well, bought a grado black and it is unseemly good for such a low price. Went to the symphony the other night and Itzhak Perlman was the feature.
Went home and checked out the system. Set up the cartridge for flatness, approx 11k ohms. The grado is a steal.
Thanks for starting the string TCG.
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Yeah, to me, among my stable of cartridges...the lowly Grado Green (now with a Shibata tip from a NOS Grado G1+) is the most real sounding. I came back from two symphonic recitals and auditioned each of the several that I have and each time the Grado sounded the most right to me. The instruments sounded more correct and the height, width and depth of the performance was re-created well I thought.
With the Shibata tip it avoids the end-of-record distortion that the Prestige series seems plagued by.
It is plagued by issues as all cartridges are, but at it's price it seems plagued by less than most. Or, it's faults are fairly easy to live with.
I look forward to loading it correctly one day to milk that last bit of performance from it. When I called Grado a month+ ago to ask where in the line to step to from here...I was told I'm 90% there already....I'd be paying a lot more for that last 10%. Refreshing talk from Grado Labs that was :thumb:
Steve, make sure you have 25 hours + on it...it does improve with age some :)
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However, with my new Harmon Kardon T25 turntable, the Grado Green Longhorn sounds fantastic. We were listening to it last night and damn. It's close to the Empire. I'm tracking at 1.5 grams as well.
W
Wayner - Have you done Frank's power supply/transformer mod on the T25 yet? The improvement is worth the effort, the sound is so much smoother. I have a H-K T55C with the mod. Mico speed fluctuations are also now gone, I have also found that turning off the quartz lock improves the imaging (your turntable may not have this option). How about a mini-review of your 6 turntables sometime?