AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Low Wattage Systems => Topic started by: JLM on 16 Jun 2013, 10:02 am
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Years ago I tried hard to be a DecHead (fan of Decware). Steve Deckert's electronics have always had many very good attributes (hand built by well paid employees from America's heartland, life-time warrantee, simple if somewhat "out there" designs, great sound, very reasonable prices) but I ended up loving somewhat less efficient speakers than what his stuff could accommodate (at the time). Note that I'm a big believer in the amp providing a 'commanding grip' on the speaker for better bass control and improved resolution (detail and imaging), as well as of course avoiding the dreaded clip.
In his forums and still on his website the question of speaker matching still comes up (his "classic" amps are only 2 wpc and love low impedance loads). Room size, listening tastes, and even musical genres also play into this consideration. Naturally the logarithmic relationship of power (watts) to dB must be understood in all this. Another factor is setting a goal of average and peak spls to be obtained with some debate as to what actual peak spls are. But without a sound pressure level meter it's all speculation. So I own one and with test tones have discovered two things:
Most audiophiles over estimate how loud they routinely listen;
Most audiophile over estimate the frequency ranges they're listening to.
Discussion?
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Hi JLM and all Audio Circle members.
One day I will buy a SPL meter to know what is the frequency response of all my speakers, what is the level at which I listen different type of music, what is the noise level of my listening room and also to found out what is the acoustic signature of my listening room, so I can improve it.
A very useful little device and not that expensive,
I wonder why I still don't own one ???
Guy 13
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I was looking to answer a poll question, but the answer is of course i own one. What home theater enthusiast/audiophile doesn't? :lol:
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A very useful little device and not that expensive, I wonder why I still don't own one ???
For judging relative SPL music levels, measuring ambient background noise levels or for setting multichannel speaker levels with pink noise, the inexpensive sound level meter works pretty well.
But for analyzing frequency response, particularly lower bass frequencies where inexpensive sound level meters can be somewhat inaccurate, a calibrated microphone and soundcard interface with microphone input hooked up to a computer will give you a more realistic and accurate result for those tasks.
Steve
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Years ago I tried hard to be a DecHead (fan of Decware). Steve Deckert's electronics have always had many very good attributes (hand built by well paid employees from America's heartland, life-time warrantee, simple if somewhat "out there" designs, great sound, very reasonable prices) but I ended up loving somewhat less efficient speakers than what his stuff could accommodate (at the time). Note that I'm a big believer in the amp providing a 'commanding grip' on the speaker for better bass control and improved resolution (detail and imaging), as well as of course avoiding the dreaded clip.
In his forums and still on his website the question of speaker matching still comes up (his "classic" amps are only 2 wpc and love low impedance loads). Room size, listening tastes, and even musical genres also play into this consideration. Naturally the logarithmic relationship of power (watts) to dB must be understood in all this. Another factor is setting a goal of average and peak spls to be obtained with some debate as to what actual peak spls are. But without a sound pressure level meter it's all speculation. So I own one and with test tones have discovered two things:
Most audiophiles over estimate how loud they routinely listen;
Most audiophile over estimate the frequency ranges they're listening to.
Discussion?
A must-own because you can't trust the "audiophile"'s ears!
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Hi JLM and all Audio Circle members.
One day I will buy a SPL meter to know what is the frequency response of all my speakers, what is the level at which I listen different type of music, what is the noise level of my listening room and also to found out what is the acoustic signature of my listening room, so I can improve it.
A very useful little device and not that expensive,
I wonder why I still don't own one ???
Guy 13
you can start by downloading free spl meter app for your iphone or andoid phone
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you can start by downloading free spl meter app for your iphone or andoid phone
Hi Dimfer and all Audio Circle members.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
I don't have a Iphone or android...
I don't want an Iphone and Android.
I do have a laptop, maybe I will buy a microphone + software from
Part Express or the same ? ? ?
Guy 13
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Guy, Your laptop more than likely already has a built in mic. Al least, I've never heard of a laptop not having one, but I could be wrong. More than likely, you just need the software to use it as an SPL meter. Try downloading software called >>"REW" (Room EQ Wizard)<<. (http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/)
I've used free apps for my Android Samsung Galaxy 10.1 Tablet, and they are grossly in error. Seems like it's fairly accurate under about 90, but after that, it's way off. It is fun seeing the SPL level of various things in life. I've had the tablet in the truck with me while I'm driving to see how quiet the ride is. I've also taken my digital SPL meter and had it nearby when shooting guns, using loud tools and equipment in the workshop, and I'm even guilty of testing the (extreme) SPL level of my screaming newborn girl several years ago.
Oh...and I use it for home theater and audio use too. :lol: It works great when tuning subwoofer and infinite baffle rigs.
Bob
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I do. RS digital.
Paul
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Hi Dimfer and all Audio Circle members.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
I don't have a Iphone or android...
I don't want an Iphone and Android.
I do have a laptop, maybe I will buy a microphone + software from
Part Express or the same ? ? ?
Guy 13
Monsieur, à mon avis, vous devez acheter un iPhone téléphone portable.
Paul
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Yes, I have one - Galaxy CM140. Help me out a bunch.
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40 to 50 db in smallroom andits plenty loud
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I have the Rat Shack meter and it is as good as the microphone that is built into it. In other words, it sucks. The moral of the story here is that cheap meters bring cheap responses, nothing accurate, at all. I would certainly not base any conclusions for system evaluations based on the responses from this meter.
Wayner
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A web search will reveal the correction needed (mostly in bass frequencies) for the Radio Shack spl meter. Web searches will also provide samplings of spls and frequencies.
Measuring in-room bass spl's is unreliable at best anyway due to inherent wave prorogation of bass and the standing wave effect below the Schroeder frequency (refer to Floyd E. Toole's "Sound Reproduction"). These standing waves can result in +/- 20 dB variations depending on room size, speaker setup, frequency, and measuring location in the room (a good analogy is moving water back and forth in a bath tub with 4 inches/10 cm of water and observing the wave peaks and dips).
My point of creating this thread was to determine if low-wattage users worry about dynamic headroom and/or matching speaker efficiencies.
bummrush, I'd double check your spl measurements (40 - 50 dB is ordinary conversational levels). Now if you're saying 40 - 50 dB above background noise, I'd agree that it could be 'plenty loud'.
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A 'spl meter' is on thing, a 'calibration mic' (with software) is another and an 'iPhone meter' is a toy. While an 'spl meter' or 'iPhone meter' can be used hand held to answer the casual question of how loud? Any serious measurement should be done with the meter in a fixed position on a mic stand or tripod with the human as far away as practicable. You use a 'spl meter' to set channel levels in a multi-channel system (5.1 or 7.1). You use a 'calibration mic' to answer frequency response questions.
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That's possible all I use is the apple app, I'm in a pretty quiet room . But yes even on the app is there a way to calibrate or change anything on it.
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A 'spl meter' is on thing, a 'calibration mic' (with software) is another and an 'iPhone meter' is a toy. While an 'spl meter' or 'iPhone meter' can be used hand held to answer the casual question of how loud? Any serious measurement should be done with the meter in a fixed position on a mic stand or tripod with the human as far away as practicable. You use a 'spl meter' to set channel levels in a multi-channel system (5.1 or 7.1). You use a 'calibration mic' to answer frequency response questions.
Bingo. :thumb:
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Any serious measurement should be done with the meter in a fixed position on a mic stand or tripod with the human as far away as practicable.
Why not have the listener (human I think) very close by? As I understand audio, the purpose is for the human to listen. My audio mancave is for my enjoyment, not a lab experiment to make the numbers happy. Wouldn't adding a human better stimulate what will be heard? With my Behringer DEQ2496/mike I've always hand held at the 'head location' to best simulate actual in-use conditions. And I'm being serious.
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Because when doing the measurement, the meter represents the human. You will just get in the way.
Even my old DIY 'Mighty Mic' with a 24 inch wand use sensitive to humans. But with the cal mic, I could run the mic cable to the computer in the next room.
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I think I see what JLM is saying.....
If you tune the room with nobody in it, then when you do introduce a 200 pound watery bag of manliness in the listening chair, then you've changed those numbers you just fine tuned.
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I have the Rat Shack meter and it is as good as the microphone that is built into it. In other words, it sucks. The moral of the story here is that cheap meters bring cheap responses, nothing accurate, at all. I would certainly not base any conclusions for system evaluations based on the responses from this meter.
Wayner
If you use something like REW, there is a plug-in file that can be used to offset the inaccuracies of the RS meter. Is it perfect? No. But, be realistic. When doing measurements to try to improve things in a room via treatment/placement, you're not looking for +/1 db accuracy. You're looking for general trends and relative change. Now, if you're looking to measure a speaker response, then absolutely, you need something much more accurate.
Bryan
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I think I see what JLM is saying.....
If you tune the room with nobody in it, then when you do introduce a 200 pound watery bag of manliness in the listening chair, then you've changed those numbers you just fine tuned.
Yeah, what he said.
Again the thread has gotten off message (the need to basically know how loud/deep you really hear in assessing the need for wattage vs. speaker efficiency).
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............... how loud/deep you really hear in assessing the need for wattage vs. speaker efficiency).
I'm currently listening near-field to my cheapo PC speakers. Got some Bob Acri "Sweet Georgia Brown" at 75-80 dB.
Not sure the SPL of the speakers. They don't publish those numbers when your speakers cost $25. :oops:
I'd say that when I listen to my main system (speakers are 96SPL), I'd tack on another 10dB to the volume.
For Home Theater, maybe a touch more when I'm watching a "blow em up" type movie. The LFE would peak at over 100, I'm sure (although it's been a while since I watched a movie with the SPL meter by my side).
Hopefully that answers your question and gets us back on track.
Bob
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7:30 AM here and listening to Mozart Piano quartets at 53 to 67Db 'C' weighted (Radio Shack digital meter)
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............... 'C' weighted (Radio Shack digital meter)
Oh yea, I forgot that part.....me too.
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I've borrowed one, it was interesting. Also, necessary... years ago I was living in a house converted to apartments and the slumlord didn't insulate walls between units. I got noise complaints and he threatened to evict me, but I told him I had a sound meter and my music was softer than normal conversation... told him to get over here and insulate your walls otherwise both of our units would stop paying rent and file a complaint with the city. :D
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me
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a 200 pound watery bag of manliness in the listening chair,
:lol: :lol: :lol:
226 lb watery bag of manliness here. (on a good day)
I wonder if I create a bit of 80 HZ suckout due to water resonance and couch foam compression.
:lol:
Priceless Bob,
Thanks for keeping it all in perspective.
I use my "toy" I phone app now. The I pad is busy with the cool spectrum analyzer. :thumb:
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So what does the circle consider to be an "acceptable" spl meter?
What calibrated microphone should be used?
Any recommendations?
HsvHeelFan
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Nick, I just got checked, and the Wellness gals told me I was 230 pounds.
Loos like we'd have the same suck-out, you and I.
Not sure how we can use that information, but it's cool to chat about. :lol:
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At most audiofests I've attended the music was running at an average of about 85 dB. Note again that most audiophiles overestimate how loud their music is.
Public Service Warning: Extended exposure (daily for years) to 85 dB will result in permanent hearing loss (true of 17% of all adults under age 69 in the U.S.) and possible tinnitus.
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I use a Minipa:
(http://www.extech.com/instruments/resources/images/407764.jpg)
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JLM's question I believe is can a lower powered (Decware) amp get you to a listening level that satisfies? He further contends that most overestimate the levels that they listen at. I agree with that contention. I know that in my small and quiet listening room when I get near 80db of volume it has reached the "hey, turn that down" level and going higher is certainly not adding any more quality to the sound. My speakers like most are capable of over 100dB, but why go there?
I think reaching peak quality of sound is more important than the absolute reading on the SPL meter. Once you have hit the sweet spot with your amp and the frequency balance has bloomed you may enjoy but don't need more volume. I have today an extremely powerful SS amp that is overkill for my current speakers, one that I bought originally during my Magnepan years. I have to regrettably get that amp "going" before the sound blooms which takes me out of quiet listening ability. At lower levels with this amp the sound is thin. That got me thinking about low powered tube amps.
I had the pleasure of trying a friend's Decware Zen Torii MK3 (25 class A watts/ch) with my current setup and despite the fact that my speakers are only 87db sensitive they are easy to drive and the Torii amp presented fully bloomed sound at very low listening levels. The sound was so much more seductive than my SS amp that I knew I was on to something. Better and full sound with amazing dynamics at lower volume levels. Wow! I was also able to crank it to levels that exceeded where I care to listen at - still with perfect sound balance. Going above that and the amp did indeed start to complain. I don't care that my speakers will reach higher volume that this amp will support. I want to preserve my hearing anyway. I bought the amp and I am currently on the build waiting list.
So what's the point? For me this 25 watt amp even with average sensitivity speakers will let me play either softly with FULL fidelity or as loudly as I wish, but not at hearing damage levels. Reaching maximum sound quality early as you raise the volume is the point. You want to leave some room for dynamics.
Whatever amp you own will have a level where the real magic starts to happen. If that doesn't happen untill you hit 80 or 90db, well then you probably need to own a SPL meter to see if you are hitting dangerous health levels. If your amp can bloom at much lower volumes, SPL may be acedemic.