AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Salk Signature Sound => Topic started by: jsalk on 10 Apr 2016, 05:42 pm
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About 10 years ago, I received an email from a gentleman who outlined his desired performance criteria for a speaker that was under $3000. It had to be a 3-way and play down to near 30Hz. He went on to describe the midrange and top end performance he was looking for as well. He explained to me that he had listened to many brand name speakers, but none met his requirements. He asked if I had any advice.
I told him the reason he was having trouble finding his ideal speaker is that it probably did not exist at that price point. I told him if he found one he should let me know because I would probably want a pair myself.
He eventually did get the performance he was after. He purchased a pair of Veracity HT3's. It's just that is cost him a bit more than his $3000 budget.
I thought about this exchange often over the years. And when RAAL came out with a lower cost ribbon tweeter, we thought we might see what we could do.
I should point out that 3-way speakers are very difficult to get right. Normally, it takes us about a year to go from concept to finished product. But in this case, keeping the price under $3000 made the task quite a bit more difficult.
Our first try began about 2 years ago. About this time last year, we were getting close. But, as happens from time to time, despite repeated attempts to get the crossover right, that design just never quite came together and we had to scrap the project and start over.
I'm happy to say that this past week we made the final adjustments to a crossover for a new 3-way design and we will be ready to show it at AXPONA at the end of the week.
The only thing we don't have, at this point, is a name. And that's where you come in. Your suggestions have always been helpful.
Philosophically, this new design fits in the Song Series of speakers. However, it does not use any of the same drivers. So perhaps it needs to be part of an entire new series of speakers.
Here is a picture of the pair we will take to AXPONA in Chicago...
(http://salksound.com/gallery/Song3/S3-cerused-oak.jpg)
I should probably explain the finish on this pair. A few years ago I went to an art show and saw a bowl that was black with white grain. This technique is called ceruse. We tried it a few times, but never figured out how it was done. About two months ago, we finally figured it out. So I thought it would be fun to build a pair of speakers in that finish. It's not a finish for everyone, but it was something different and we had to try it. (There are any number of color combinations that can be used with this technique and we have some very cool ideas of what to try next.)
Here is a close-up...
(http://salksound.com/gallery/Song3/S3-cerused-oak-cu.jpg)
So let the naming begin...
(Technical details in the next post.)
- Jim
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How about naming it after the guy that inspired the project
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Here are some specifications for this new 3-way model:
- 8-ohm design
- 87db Sensitivity
- Frequency response: 33Hz - 40kHz +/- 3db
- RAAL ribbon tweeter
- 4 inch midrange with bamboo cone
- 7.5 inch woofer with papyrus cone
- Size: 9.5" W x 14.25" D x 40.25" H not including plinths and spikes (add 2.5")
- Price: $2895 per pair in standard finish
As one would imagine, the RAAL ribbon tweeter produces a very detailed and transparent top end. The 4" midrange has excellent off-axis response and is ideally sized for great midrange performance. The 7.5" woofer has excellent power handling and plays well-defined bass down to 33Hz with ease.
Kudos to Dennis Murphy for hanging in there through some trying times to pull this design together!
All and all, this is a lot of performance for under $3000 and I'm glad we undertook the journey to bring it to market.
- Jim
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How about naming it after the guy that inspired the project
+1. If in case it impossible I would name Tango.
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I love this stuff...
Salk Smart
Astute Towers
Salk Intels
Intellitower
Tech wise Tower
Salk Thrifts
Salk Reserve
Invest Techs
Salk Resource
Salk Substance
Salk Currency
Capital Towers
:o :? :roll:
I'll try for more later ...
JD
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Salk Scythe - it cuts through the audio bullsh*t with ease.
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Felicity :idea:
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I really like that finish, Jim. Fine, fine work. :thumb:
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How about:
Exquisite Song Towers
Primo Song Towers
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Congratulations, Jim, and to Dennis as well. I know you two put in a lot of work to make this project happen.
That finish is striking! It looks like it could fit in to a more 'modern' decor that leans away from natural wood finishes, without being as sometimes stark as paint. I think it is also a cool way to add even more depth to a finer but more busy grain like oak. I'm presuming these are a satin finish, and I know it kind of goes against the spirit of the design, but a polished gloss in that finish would I think have a crazy deep, almost iridescent quality to it.
Again, congrats and have a great show!
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My submittal: FlightSong
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Serenade
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SongTower Trio
SongTrio
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I'd say "Impossible Dream" in the Song Series
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Salk Tri-umph
Song Series II
Salk Performance Series
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Salk Envision series
Salk Discern series
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Salk Klas
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Will this have a one or two piece grill cover?
Patrick
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Salk M.A.T. (Menage A Trois)
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I would like to add just a few details. First, it's not super difficult to develop a decent 3-way. There are a bajillion of them ut there, and some are pretty good. The problem comes when you want to keep the price under $3,000 and still provide truly deep bass extension with a woofer that won't require a cabinet the size of Cleveland. That's what has delayed this project and has generated countless e-mails. We struggled for almost a year with a woofer that had admirable characteristics down low, but that lacked output in the critical midbass range. In the meantime, I was following glowing reviews on DIY boards about a premium woofer manufactured by SB Acoustics under the name Satori. SB Acoustics was started by former engineers of Scan Speak, and I've used their 6.5" woofer in a previous version of my Philharmonitor. The new line is modeled after the Uber-Expensive Scan Speak Illuminator woofers, one of which Jim has used in the Silk monitor. The 7.5" version promised everything we were looking for, and that's what Jim will be bringing to Chicago. I personally think the Salk Satori would be a good name if the folks at SB Acoustics would allow it.
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I'm curious to as why the woofer is set so low in the cabinet. I'm sure it's due to the design but it is different (in a good way :)).
Bill
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Are these sealed, TL, or rear ported?
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The lower positioning is to minimize floor bounce cancellation, where the woofer output hits the floor, and bounces back out of phase. It depends on the cabinet baffle dimensions and the individual characteristics of the woofer, but sometimes it's necessary to get the woofer closer to the floor to minimize this type of cancellation. That complicates crossover design between the woofer and midrange, but that can be overcome with modern simulation programs.
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Are these sealed, TL, or rear ported?
They are rear ported.
- Jim
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Salk Hat Trick
Salk Triad
Salk Triple-Play
Salk Tripoli
More as I come up with them.
- Woody
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Thanks for sharing the background story of the design. It's always interesting to hear.
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Jim,
My name idea will only make sense if you are courting Chinese audiophiles. I suggest "San Xian". San is "three" and Xian is "deity". Salk Three Deities speakers.
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Tango or Trident.
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Salk Trinity
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Baseball analogy: Triple Play series
Name the first one Tinkers (Chicagoans know this one).
Be great for the show.
Don
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Trilogy
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Salk Essentia
Definition of essentia: "that is such by its essence"
I think that sounds good when talking about a neutral, full range speaker.
Other options:
Salk Song Essentia
Salk Soul
Salk Song Soul
Salk Song Spirit
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Will they have grills? Will the grill cover the entire front or will it be a 2-piece "bikini" style thing?
Would it all be possible to have the bass driver face the rear or down fire? I think it would be awesome to see a speaker with what appears to only have a ribbon tweeter and 4" driver but then play down to 30hz.
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Will they have grills? Will the grill cover the entire front or will it be a 2-piece "bikini" style thing?
Yes, we will have one grill that starts at the top of the speaker and goes to just under the woofer where it is radiused.
Would it all be possible to have the bass driver face the rear or down fire? I think it would be awesome to see a speaker with what appears to only have a ribbon tweeter and 4" driver but then play down to 30hz.
Unfortunately, that would not work. You can do subwoofers that way because the crossover frequency is very low. But these woofers cross higher to the midrange and you could never get them integrated if you moved them to a rear or down-firing position.
- Jim
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You can do subwoofers that way because the crossover frequency is very low. But these woofers cross higher to the midrange and you could never get them integrated if you moved them to a rear or down-firing position.
Because of the rather large distance between the midrange and woofer, this would seem like a fairly far-field loudspeaker compared to the other designs. What would you say is the preferred minimum listening distance?
Steve
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Salk Tori
Salk Satoru
Salk Kenshō
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Because of the rather large distance between the midrange and woofer, this would seem like a fairly far-field loudspeaker compared to the other designs. What would you say is the preferred minimum listening distance?
Steve
The speaker was optimized for a listening distance of 3 meters or more. But It does pretty well at one meter. The main difference is that the response in the 300 - 800 Hz range will be a bit flatter further back. The spacing isn't as much of a problem as you might think because the wave lengths at the crossover point are fairly long.
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Touchstone's
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When I saw the picture I thought of the monoliths in 2001- a Space Odyssey. So my name suggestion is
Salk Odyssey
Definition of odyssey
: a long journey full of adventures
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Salk Audio Concorde
Salk Soundscape Jr.
Others here have mentioned other well-worthy names for this new line of speaker.
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Salk Odyssey
Exactly what I was thinking.
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Sound Windows
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Or....
One of Jims many Masterpieces.....
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"Lucky"
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Salk Soho
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SongThree
Mini-HT-3
I assume this is TL design?
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SongThree
Funny things is, I needed to have a working name for the show. Song3 is what I used (on a temporary basis).
I assume this is TL design?
No, this is a ported design. First, the ideal location for the woofer turned out to be a bit different than it would in a normal TL design. Second, it already plays down to 33Hz. A TL design might play slightly lower, but it would be at the cost of power handling. Since that is so good now, we will probably leave things as they are. That said, we'll take a look at it for future consideration.
- Jim
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Salk Trifecta
From Wikapedia
In American and Australian horse racing terminology, a trifecta is a parimutuel bet in which the bettor must predict which horses will finish first, second, and third in exact order. The word comes from the related betting term, perfecta. A trifecta is known as a tricast in the United Kingdom, as a tiercé in Hong Kong, as a trio ordré in France,[2] as a tris in Italy and a triactor in English Canada.
The word trifecta has also been used to describe a situation when three elements come together at the same time.
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Salk Trinity Tower
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Salk Wop Bam Boom :banana piano:
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Salk VanGuard
The VanGuard series kind of has a nice ring to it......... just sayin'
van·guard
ˈvanˌɡärd/
noun
............ leading the way in new developments or ideas.
"the experimental spirit of the modernist vanguard"
a position at the forefront of new developments or ideas.
"the prototype was in the vanguard of technical development"
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The Salk Triad
Triad:
1. A group of three.
2. Music A chord of three tones, especially one built on a given root tone plus a major or minor third and a perfect fifth.
3. A section of a Pindaric ode consisting of the strophe, antistrophe, and epode. (... I love the Pindaric ode especially when the epodes are in direct contrast with the antistrophes. Actually, I have no idea what that means.)
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What do they weigh and what are the cross over points and slopes. Looking forward to seeing and hearing them at the show. Very nice looking speakers. Like the slenderness and like how they look with out the grill.
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Jim would have to tell you the exact weight. It felt like about 70 lbs when I was carrying them up and down my stairs. The crossover points are 280 Hz and 3500 Hz, 4th order acoustic all around.
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What do they weigh and what are the cross over points and slopes. Looking forward to seeing and hearing them at the show. Very nice looking speakers. Like the slenderness and like how they look with out the grill.
I'll have to get the weight after AXPONA since we already packed them up for the trip to Chicago.
- Jim
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Perhaps Tres Tower
JD
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3-way?
How 'bout Hinky, Slinky, and Kinky? :thumb:
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S-3TO
Hear the amazing Salk 3-Way Tower and May the (Audio) Force Be With You
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The lower positioning is to minimize floor bounce cancellation, where the woofer output hits the floor, and bounces back out of phase. It depends on the cabinet baffle dimensions and the individual characteristics of the woofer, but sometimes it's necessary to get the woofer closer to the floor to minimize this type of cancellation. That complicates crossover design between the woofer and midrange, but that can be overcome with modern simulation programs.
Dennis,
Thank you for your detailed response :)!
Bill
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I'd be interested in comments from Jim and Dennis as to how this design differs in sound to say a ribbon tweeter Songtower. Obviously the bass plays lower, but how does it compare in the midrange? With a ported rear, how far from a rear wall is best for these? Guessing a few feet?
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Jim is probably in panic packing mode for Axpona, so I'll just offer a few comments. I've only compared the 3-way with my dome Song Towers. First off, almost no competently designed 2-way will sound like a competently designed 3-way (let's assume competence just for the heck of it). The dedicated midrange in a 3-way will almost always be smaller than the woofers in a 2 way, and will have superior dispersion. Plus, the woofers don't have to handle as much of the frequency spectrum, and that probably affect the midrange production favorably. As a result, the new 3-way has a fuller sound in the midrange than the ST's, and it throws a wider sound stage. The highs are probably very similar to the ribbon ST. As you mentioned, the bass extension is also deeper in the 3-way. That would normally mean significantly less sensitivity, since the ST's have two woofers working in parallel vs. only one woofer in the 3-way. However, the Satori woofer is larger (7.5" vs 5.5"), and the difference in sensitivity between the two speakers is pretty trivial. I might have more to say after I spend some dedicated listening time at Chicago and can compare the 3-ways with other offerings from competitors.
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I'd be interested in comments from Jim and Dennis as to how this design differs in sound to say a ribbon tweeter Songtower. Obviously the bass plays lower, but how does it compare in the midrange? With a ported rear, how far from a rear wall is best for these? Guessing a few feet?
Just arrived at AXPONA and I think Dennis' comments above are a good representation of the differences.
As to the fact that these are rear ported, you would probably want a minimum of 18- 24" of breathing room to the rear. That said, we can also build versions of these with front slot ports for those who may not have the luxury of enough space.
- Jim
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Thanks Dennis and Jim for your comments! Front slots instead of a rear port huh? Would that impact the sound significantly Jim?
I look forward to seeing what showgoers have to say regarding this new model. I must admit, I don't think I've ever seen a bamboo speaker cone before.
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Having a hard time thinking of a name but these things look like a serious winner and should be a great success at that price. :weights:
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Just finished setting up the 3-ways in a small room with Jeff Wells' new Majestic integrated amp. Based on what I heard,, I can only say we'll be building a lot of these speakers in the next couple of years. The sound with that combination is incredible.
- Jim
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Regarding the name, especially after hearing Jim's impressions, I thought of: SongTower Sweet Breeze. With the beautiful spring weather coming into SE MI, seems to be fitting.
Ben
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If these will be part of the Song line, then I would name them the SongLyrics.
However, if you want to avoid having unique names, then just add an identifier to the end to distinguish it from the original SongTower. Call this one the SongTower TM (Triple Metre). Or maybe the SongTower Forte.
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Salk SongSatori Naaa not enough s's.
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Will there be a center speaker to match up with the new 3-way? If so will it be tough to design and will it need to be a large speaker?
Bill
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Salk SongSatori Naaa not enough s's.
Salk's SongsSatori's Serieses ... better? :lol:
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Just listened to them. The speakers sound like they got a lot of potential. The sound in the room has some issues but the speakers aside from needing minor toe-in where blended very well for having three drivers as they do.
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Just listened to them. The speakers sound like they got a lot of potential. The sound in the room has some issues but the speakers aside from needing minor toe-in where blended very well for having three drivers as they do.
Did you listen with and without toe-in, or did they just happen to have them toed in? They really shouldn't need any given the broad horizontal dispersion.
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Funny things is, I needed to have a working name for the show. Song3 is what I used (on a temporary basis).
- Jim
I think the ship has already sailed. People are already calling them the "Salk 3K" speakers (price)....
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Did you listen with and without toe-in, or did they just happen to have them toed in? They really shouldn't need any given the broad horizontal dispersion.
The room is a little bit small, narrow, a little toe in I think would ease some of the side reflections that seem to be hurting the focus on imaging. The speakers sound very capable, but side reflections, or something else, needs tweaked right now.
Last I was there they were perpendicular.
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The room is a little bit small, narrow, a little toe in I think would ease some of the side reflections that seem to be hurting the focus on imaging. The speakers sound very capable, but side reflections, or something else, needs tweaked right now.
Last I was there they were perpendicular.
Thanks I'll check it out tomorrow morning.
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Salk Ceruse
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I think Song 3 sounds pretty nice.
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Maybe it's that nice dark finish, but I like the name "Nightsong". Or Salk "Nocturnals", cause you'll be up all night listening to those Deep tracks!!!
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YABS - Yet Another Box Speaker.
The wood sure looks nice though.
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Maybe it's that nice dark finish, but I like the name "Nightsong". Or Salk "Nocturnals", cause you'll be up all night listening to those Deep tracks!!!
I'm banking on it!!!
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Hi Jim/Dennis,
Are you able to provide more details about the midrange?
Cheers Rod
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I don't think there's much I can add. The bamboo driver in the Song 3 is very similar to the titanium unit I use in the Phil Slims. Both are designed for full-range use above 80 Hz or so. I think they have the same motor, although the magnets are different. And both qualify as the best full-range drivers I've used. But their strength is very smooth response as a midrange driver. They have plenty of power at the low end to maintain a full sound when crossed to a woofer in the 250 - 400 Hz range, and they have no breakup modes anywhere near the upper crossover point of around 3.5 kHz.
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Tangband (http://www.tb-speaker.com/products/w4-1320si).
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I still like Nightsong for a name.
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Hi,
On the Salk Sound website they are called Song3. I would probably have bought these speakers over my original HT2's that I purchased in 2008. Another great product from Salk Sound.
Cheers Rod
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Salk Song Sats
Salk Song Sators
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The logical name is Salk Sound V4. ( I have the V3 models.)
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The logical name is Salk Sound V4. ( I have the V3 models.)
Hmmmm. I thought the Song 3 were a new model. Do you have pics of your speakers?
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Yes, the name of this speaker is the Song3
- Jim
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Yes, the name of this speaker is the Song3
- Jim
I just jumped into this thread to provide closure. The Song3 was indeed the official name of the speakers that I ordered!!