AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Spatial Audio => Topic started by: sandston on 22 Sep 2019, 05:34 pm
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I was wondering who out there has upgraded the crossover in their M3 Triode Master and what they used and how successful they feel their results were. As much as I love the overall presentation of M3TM I feel there is room for improvement in the upper frequencies. I was initially thinking to start with a bypass capacitor but after seeing the crossover components used there seems to be room for improvement over the $20 in components used.
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Perhaps apples to oranges, but I am currently awaiting parts for a complete crossover mod to my Spatial M4 Turbo S. Keeping the values the same as original. Just wanted to see what, if any, an upgrade can provide. Focused primarily on the tweeter section, initially, and then decided to do an entirely new crossover in case I didn't like the result and wanted to switch back, easily. Was not dissatisfied with the stock sound, so much as I just enjoy the interaction with equipment.
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Please see my comments on page 2 of the Spatial Audio section under Spatial M3 Turbo Crossover pics. I don't know if I commented on the Path Audio resistor, since I put that in last, but if you want to start somewhere less expensive, try the path audio. I ordered mine from England, and was surprised that it only took about a week and shipping cost was very low. The (truncated) highs went vertical, to the ceiling (and beyond).
I understand you are asking about the Triode Masters, which I believe upgraded a few of the crossover parts (as long as they fit in the minuscule Xover space) but for myself--very happy camper. Let me know if I can comment on anything else pertinent to aforementioned comments, thanks and good luck!
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So I've started the upgrade path for for my M3 Triode Masters crossovers. Clayton at Spatial was nice enough to spend a little time with me on the phone with me and shared some of his thoughts. Top notch customer service.
I am replacing both the resistors in the tweeter section with the Path Audio Resistors (30 ohm and 3 ohm). From what I've read, including ric's testimony referenced above, if you have resistors in the signal path of your crossover these are transparency kings. I have not decided what capacitor to use in the parallel notch filter (6.8uF) but will probably replace the inductor in the parallel notch filter (.5mH) with a Jantzen Wax/foil unit.
The main capacitor in the tweeter crossover I am replacing with Jupiter copper foil/paper/wax capacitor (1.5uF).
For the woofers I am replacing the inductor with a Jantzen C-Coil. There isn't much info on this inductor but Clayton really seemed to think highly of it. Its only good for lower frequencies apparently but when kept in its parameters it supposed to be very good and reasonably priced.
Going to take me awhile to wire it all up but will report back soon.
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So I've started the upgrade path for for my M3 Triode Masters crossovers. Clayton at Spatial was nice enough to spend a little time with me on the phone with me and shared some of his thoughts. Top notch customer service.
I am replacing both the resistors in the tweeter section with the Path Audio Resistors (30 ohm and 3 ohm). From what I've read, including ric's testimony referenced above, if you have resistors in the signal path of your crossover these are transparency kings. I have not decided what capacitor to use in the parallel notch filter (6.8uF) but will probably replace the inductor in the parallel notch filter (.5mH) with a Jantzen Wax/foil unit.
The main capacitor in the tweeter crossover I am replacing with Jupiter copper foil/paper/wax capacitor (1.5uF).
For the woofers I am replacing the inductor with a Jantzen C-Coil. There isn't much info on this inductor but Clayton really seemed to think highly of it. Its only good for lower frequencies apparently but when kept in its parameters it supposed to be very good and reasonably priced.
Going to take me awhile to wire it all up but will report back soon.
Look forward to hearing your impressions not only on the sound quality improvement but level of difficulty in performing the upgrade.
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Great! Keep in mind that there is the usual break in involved, expect to hear differences after a few hours to 40-80 hrs. When I put in the (lesser priced) Jupiter Aluminum caps, I was hearing some "hash" or roughness when there were louder or more intense passages, especially with orchestral music. At the time, it was noticeable, but minor and I thought "I'll just live with it", but fortunately that was part of the (extended) break in time, and now there is nothing but music, no hash or grain.
As Chris from Jupiter Caps said to me "I think you'll be very pleased".
I am, and you should be too!
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Have you considered moving crossover out of speaker ? Meaning external crossover.
charles
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I had no choice. The physical size of the crossover conversion did not allow for compactness. Moving the Xover on the outside allowed me to 1) experiment with the wiring from the Xover to the speakers and 2) allowed me to try putting isolation under the Xovers. Both have improved the sound.
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Cool. That is what I suspected. Every speaker we have had that was modded with external crossover was a huge step in the right direction. I am a big fan of outboard crossovers.
So far for us these brands benefited using outboard crossovers. , B&W, Analysis and Magnepan. Remember everything is built to a price point. As an example an ALL silver Duelund crossover could cost 5K ea.
At least you conferred with Clayton. That was smart. ENJOY !!!
charles
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I look forward to hearing you thoughts on your final sound and hopefully seeing some pics of your project in the future. I plan to tackle this in the near future myself. When you are finished can you list your parts used?
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=83325.0
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=150989.0
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There really is no choice but to go external with the crossover due to the limited size of the crossover cavity. I am laying out the components on my boards this weekend and building a box to house it all. I will take some progress pictures to share.
I am curious how much effect the lower DCR on the Jantzen C-Coil inductor at .07mH versus the stock unit at .35mH is going to effect the output level of the bass drivers. Does anyone have experience with? Is this something I will need to compensate for?
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Perhaps talking to Clayton or someone like Chris at Jupiter caps. He had cautioned me not to replace too much at one time because if there's a problem it's harder to detect where the problem is.
The work I have done to the Xover's has me realizing that Xover's should be considered as one would a component and at some point it would be great to see a modular interface with the speaker that would allow one to interchange Xover boards/parts according to price and sound quality.
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I have M3 TM and would like to try out a few options especially for:
1. The high end
2. In order of cheapest to more expensive.
Of course I know caps can get super pricey, but what's the best bang for the buck?
Thanks for your thoughts!
Morgan
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I have M3 TM and would like to try out a few options especially for:
1. The high end
2. In order of cheapest to more expensive.
Of course I know caps can get super pricey, but what's the best bang for the buck?
Thanks for your thoughts!
Morgan
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=150989.0
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Yep. Ive already read that thread. Thanks.
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Yep. Ive already read that thread. Thanks and my questions still stand.
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Of course I know caps can get super pricey, but what's the best bang for the buck?
Go with Miflex. Soniccraft carries them.
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With these speakers if you want the best resistors the Path Audio by far the best and give added resolution.
Capacitors the Excellent Audyn True Copper Max ,from Germany , if parts connecxion does not have the resistor values then order from Hifi collective in the U.K. 2-3 day FedEx is only $30
With Audio connecxion you get the overnight saver for %14.95, and get a small roll of Cardas solder
For around $30 , you don’t want cheap solder it leave a brighter sound .i have been modding Xovers for years
The caps sound very natural and up there with the excellent Jupiter copper foil at half the cost.
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I was wondering who out there has upgraded the crossover in their M3 Triode Master and what they used and how successful they feel their results were. As much as I love the overall presentation of M3TM I feel there is room for improvement in the upper frequencies. I was initially thinking to start with a bypass capacitor but after seeing the crossover components used there seems to be room for improvement over the $20 in components used.
What actually do you feel needs improvement is top end ? Extension ? Tonality ? Timbre ? I ask since it it usually a component upstream. Reason I ask is yesterday I listened to them with a Luxman integrated and then an Audio Hungary intergrated. Two totally different presentations with top end. Luxman rolled it off Audio Hungary opened it up. Tonality was dark with Luxman. Natural with Audio Hungary. Source was an Esoteric CD player.
My conclusion was that this speaker will give you what you feed it. So before you spend the money on new crossover parts borrow another amp or front end.
charles
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I agree, the path audio resistors will give you the best bang for the buck with the exception that I replaced the resistors last, so I can't comment on how they will sound by themselves. If you like what you hear, then consider upgrading other parts.
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I also thought the upper end of the Spatials were truncated musically, for about $70 you can try the Path Audio's and judge for yourself. I am assuming all speakers will benefit sonically from upgrades, given the correct values.
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No matter how good the Electronics theXover is the heart of the speaker, average parts
Is ok but hold the speaker back in imaging,soundstage depth and resolution .
I have been upgrading electronics and speakers for over 20 years now ,and everything
Is built to a price point ,on average less then 25% actually goes into the speaker itself
The rest markup and overhead. Go look at Humblehomemadehifi.com
There is a vast guide to premium capacitor parts. The stock clarity caps are their lower grade, premium resistors, like Path Audio - the best, and Duelund cast capacitirs are the best of the best that are Night and day better, but the Duelunds Waay over priced,and huge, the Audyn TrueCopper -Max are a exceptional cap ,very close to the Excellent Jupiter Copper foil ,and 1/2 the cost ,and better then even the best Mundorf
Silver,gold oil capacitors and much less monies it all comes down to budget .
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I may be speaking out of turn but after reading the much lauded Humble Homemade Hifi Capacitor test extensively and cross referencing it with other reviews I would say if you are looking for more budget minded caps look at the Clarity Cap CSA MKP 250VDC and them up from that the Jantzen Audio Superior Z-Cap. Even if buying from the states don't dismiss HiFi Collective because its in the UK. There pricing is universally better than Parts Express and Parts Connection and their stock appears to be way more flushed out. Take a look at Humble Homemade HiFi's Crossover design page and see what they are using on their crossovers. You will see both of these caps used extensively as well as the Jantzen C-Coil inductor. At least in the Triode Master there are two resistors in the signal path. From what I've read on the boards most crossover designers try to avoid capacitors in the signal path whenever possible however if you must use them everyone seems to agree the Path resistor is the way to go even when put up against the Dueland Cast resistors. For capacitors not in the signal path or parallel capacitors the Jantzen Crosscap or the Jantzen Standard Z are highly recommended by HHHiFi as well. If you cross reference their scores against Pricing from HiFi collective Jantzen really seems to be the value leader. Please keep in mind this is what my research has shown and is just an effort to save some people some time.
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Clarity Cap CSA MKP is an excellent cap as is the Jantzen.
For the higher end caps, I've tried several teflon caps, the Jupiter copper caps, the Audyn True Copper caps and the Miflex copper caps. All of these caps perform very well. Mostly it'll come down to what you value. The Teflon caps are universally 'faster' and more dynamic with more emphasis on the leading edge of notes and are exciting to listen to. The Jupiter copper caps are at the opposite side of that spectrum - they are the warmest and most forgiving of all the caps and also allow through the most tonal information. Audyn True copper caps lean much closer to the teflon caps in overall presentation, but with a touch more warmth and tone. The Miflex caps are pretty much dead neutral from a tonal standpoint, and are as good (or better) in every area than any other cap I've tried. For the $$, I think the Miflex caps are the best caps out there right now.
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The Millflex copper oil are very good I have these shared with Clarity CSA caps
The Audyn true copper max is their best foil cap and is slightly warmer and more defined
In every area. Either of these capacitors is excellent by any standard.
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=199763)
M4 Turbo S. Nothing elegant...just plugged it in to see if it works. Settling in as I type. I went with Miflex (the cheaper version) and an assortment of Intertechnik capacitors, kept everything else the same. Used terminal blocks for ease of future tweaks, if desired.
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Very nice Dakotaconcrete. May I ask the Approximate Price for your Tweek / Upgrade? What if anything did you notice with the sound.
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As I mentioned, I decided to rebuild the crossover entirely, so I purchased all 6 components (1 resistor, 2 inductors, and 3 capacitors). I think that each crossover cost around $100 each, this includes the board, rubber feet for the board, zip ties, etc. The 3 components I changed were the capacitors, in the 6.8 uf spot I used an Audyn Cap Plus, in the 1.5 uf spot I used a Miflex KPAL, and in the 33 uf spot I used an Audyn Q4. The size of the capacitors necessitated external placement.
In addition, I pulled the trigger on a pair of Path resistors last night, and they're around $23, each.
For sound, I probably have less than 10 hours on them, and from what I've read, they're likely not at equilibrium. Regardless, I am terrible at describing sound and don't really trust my memory with the original crossover sound. I generally approach these changes skeptically with the outlook that it could be an improvement. I can say that it hasn't hurt the sound in any way. Part of me does feel like the soundstage improved in the x and z axis, and vocals have greater presence.
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As I mentioned, I decided to rebuild the crossover entirely, so I purchased all 6 components (1 resistor, 2 inductors, and 3 capacitors). I think that each crossover cost around $100 each, this includes the board, rubber feet for the board, zip ties, etc. The 3 components I changed were the capacitors, in the 6.8 uf spot I used an Audyn Cap Plus, in the 1.5 uf spot I used a Miflex KPAL, and in the 33 uf spot I used an Audyn Q4. The size of the capacitors necessitated external placement.
In addition, I pulled the trigger on a pair of Path resistors last night, and they're around $23, each.
For sound, I probably have less than 10 hours on them, and from what I've read, they're likely not at equilibrium. Regardless, I am terrible at describing sound and don't really trust my memory with the original crossover sound. I generally approach these changes skeptically with the outlook that it could be an improvement. I can say that it hasn't hurt the sound in any way. Part of me does feel like the soundstage improved in the x and z axis, and vocals have greater presence.
Would you mind sharing where you found the best prices on those items? This sounds like a middle road upgrade cost wise with likely huge benefits.
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I didn't spend too much energy trying to find the best price but I sourced the Intertechnik upgrade capacitors, original inductors, and original resistor from Parts Express, the Path resistor upgrade from HiFi Collective, and the Miflex upgrade capacitor from Sonic Craft.
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:thumb:
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Thanks for the info Morganc. Sounds like a fun project I will take on myself.
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I have completed the rebuild of my crossover for my M3TM's. I may have gone a little overboard by replacing everything all at once but in the end I figured if I ever wanted to move up the Spatial Audio ladder I would want the original crossovers intact. The components are so tightly packed in there getting them out would really be a chore let alone the idea putting them all back in. The two components I did not upgrade but I did re purchase were the cap and resistor in the Zobel Network. Id like to share some picture first then ill share some measurements and impressions. Please note this is just a hobby of mine and like most of you out there the science behind it all escapes me. I welcome any and all input and observations.
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=200651)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=200652)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=200653)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=200654)
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My original idea was to have the crossovers sit in position like Dakotaconcrete did with his/her crossover hence the little tongue that comes out the front of the case. I even built a cork foam and wood platform for them to sit on. Even with the platform I noticed there was still quite a bit of vibration I could feel in the case. I'm still not 100 percent set on my speaker placement so I though the ability to move them around with the speaker would be nice. I have since move them onto the floor. Whether or not it makes any sonic difference I cannot tell you but the vibrations have been reduced dramatically. FYI I have also place my speakers on SVS isolation feet to help isolate them from my tubes.
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The first image shows the left crossover upside down showing the Bass section and the Zobel Network. The right image is right side up showing the crossover section for the tweeter.
I put most of my money into the components in the signal path. In the bass section I went with the Jantzen C-Coil on Clayton's suggestion. For the tweeter I replaced both the resistors in the signal path with Path Audio resistors. These are highly recommended by just about everyone as the resistor to use if you have them in your signal path. In my research the Path resistors appear to favored over even the Deulands. For the main capacitor in the high section I went with the Jupiter Copper Wax Paper. This was the one I hemmed and hawed the most over. In the end it came down to a matter of Sonicraft having them on sale bringing their price closer to the Milflex which was my runner up choice.
The tweeter has a parallel notch filter in the first stage of the crossover. After reading up on this I learned that it creates a dip in the frequency response over a targeted range. Using XSIM it appears to create a 10db dip centered around 2.5khz.
Some of you may have noticed that the tweeter is wired out of phase. This means that the positive terminal of the tweeter is wired to the negative output on your amp. According to Clayton this helps to time align the tweeter which is attached to the back of the woofer. If you place the the woofer in phase in XSIM you get a very respectable looking plot. When you reverse the phase all hell breaks loose. Perhaps some of you out there with real knowledge can comment.
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=200657)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=200658)
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The parallel notch filter confuses me a bit as I cant find any info on what components are actually in the signal path. I understand what each component does but I figured the resistor was the component the signal carries through while the cap and coil shape it. The Path resistor seemed like the best choice based on this assumption. I went with a mid level but highly regarded cap here and a slightly larger ga./lower ESR coil than the original. Would be curious to hear how some of the more knowledgeable members of the community feel about the importance of quality components in these positions is.
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I had made comments in the past on my crossover upgrade of the M3TS--all positive. Have you talked to Clayton about the dip? I would imagine he's the one to talk to.
Regarding the box holding the crossover components and sound/vibration, I have to say I am nothing but impressed with IsoAcoustics products and use them on the M3's feet, under my turntable, amp, on top of my SpaceDeck motor wheel, and also added one in conjunction with a turntable weight.
In my experience, once you are hearing more detail from your system, the more you hear improvements in vibration control, and this includes the crossovers.
I have on order some of IsoAcoustic Orea's that are rated up to 4lbs, that I plan to put under the crossovers, and I know from experience that even putting Herbie's products under the crossovers show an improvement in sound quality. IMO the IsoAcoustics improve upon the Herbie's products and I figured, as long as I have this much invested in the crossover, isolating it further from vibration is a good thing.
Thanks for posting and happy listening!
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So how does it sound? While it is still breaking in the first thing I noticed I did not expect. There was a decided drop off in the amount of deep bass. While this wasn't necessarily a bad thing it wasn't expected. I run my M3TM's with a pair of SVS 4000 subs. Before the crossover mods I had the subs turned down quiet a bit and dropped the crossover frequency down to 60hz. I have since turned them back up to 75hz and increased the vol about 10db or so. I am still playing around with these settings. What I am noticing that while the M3TM's are not reaching as low they seem to have a more authoritative grip in the mid bass region. The SVS subs are capable of a much tighter grip on the lowest octaves so ultimately this change albeit unexpected is a plus. I will post measurements I took with REW that support this finding.
The second thing I noticed is a wider sound stage and more space around the individual instruments. My girlfriend who couldn't care on lick about my system except that she knows it makes me happy was baffled by me buying these speakers to begin with freely admitted early on that in their stock form sounded amazing. When I decided to rework the crossovers she was even more perplexed. Sound familiar? On my first listening session she wandered into the room and sat down to listen with me. Within 20 minutes she said unprompted, " I feel like I can walk around the musicians!". I think that says it all as I would have to agree that the overall separation has become more defined and the detail retrieval has increased giving the presentation a greater sense of being there with the musicians. And this is something these speakers already have in spades.
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So here are some measurements I took before and after the crossover change. These were taken using REW at 1 foot from the speaker and three feet from the speaker in plane with the coaxial driver setup. The measurements shown are gated in order to cancel out room reflections. While this is probably far from perfect and I am no expert in this I wanted to have a baseline so I could tell what was occurring. The drop in the bass driver is evident in the measurements and the tweeter seems to be performing nearly identical to how it was performing before the mods. The interesting thing to me is the Phase changes. I know less than nothing about what this represents and would love to hear some analysis from the community. On the surface it looks cleaner than the original phase plot but based on how I measured it may be meaningless. I plan to do some research into the subject. The plots are pretty well labeled but if you have any questions id love to dialogue a bit about the results with anyone who cares to comment. The images in order are 12" measurement original xover, 12" measurement new xover, 12" measurements compared. Followed by 36" original. 36" new, 36" compared.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=200703)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=200704)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=200705)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=200706)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=200707)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=200708)
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Please see my posts from this topic here at AC: https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=150989.0
Ten dB sounds like a lot, but I'm the wrong person to comment other than hopefully it's the break in aspect of it rather than a problem with the new crossover.
My girlfriend also could care less about sound quality. Usually, her reply is "I thought you got it to where it was great why do you need to do more?" To which I reply, "because it will sound better".
I would say overall, for me, the biggest change in the crossover upgrade is texture/palpability. Hearing what I guess they would call low level information, let's say for classical plucked strings, violin, cello notes have a fullness that previously was flatter sounding. Of course if you hear plucked strings better, plucked electric guitar notes also carry more weight, as do vocals--pretty much everything sounds more fleshed out and fuller. With the path audio installed, the presence factor, again using orchestral strings as an example, fill the room vertically as they do at a concert, with more air. All of these improvements for me are money well spent. There is the danger that as a system becomes more sensitive one can hear more of the bad recordings or nuances that would be a negative, but overall I would say that recordings that previously sounded good, sound very good, and that recordings that sound great, sound fantastic. Hope this helps!
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I had a long satisfying listening session last night with the new crossovers. I would highly recommend upgrading at least some of the parts of the crossover in the TM. If I was to do it in stages I would start with the two resistor in the signal path of the tweeter, replacing them with Path Audio Resistors from HIFI collective. The value of these are 30ohm and 3 ohm. I would also replace the 1.5uf cap in the tweeter section with a high grade copper foil capacitor. I went with the Jupiter over the Miflex as it was on sale at Sonicraft. In the woofer section one should consider replacing the inductor. I went with Claytons recommendation and used the Jantzen C-Coil. This is 3.5mH. This tightened up the bass and got rid of some of the lower octave boominess. This should cost you around $200 per speaker and is well worth it my op pinion.
Do these speakers need mods? Absolutely not. Is there room for improvement? I would say yes. Keep in mind that if these mods were a factory option these speakers would cost $1000 more at retail.
I have been experimenting with one other mod for the speakers. Like several other M3TM owners here have mentioned I find the speakers, at times, lack a bit of high end sparkle and extension. For modern recordings and long listening sessions these speakers sit in the sweet spot but at times on my system (All Tube) they can feel a bit over relaxed. I have been playing with bypassing the resistors in the tweeter section of the crossover. This is easy enough to do with a set of insulated alligator clips and a short piece of insulated wire. Bypassing the 30ohm resistor in the parallel notch filter results in a large jump in high end volume and energy but the overall balance is thrown off and the highs become fatiguing quickly. I did notice an increase in detail and sound stage expansion which I attributed to the bypassing of the resistor. Its an interesting experiment to try. Bypassing the 3 ohm resistor yielded a much more subtle result but gives the high end a nice punch and sparkle. While I don't enjoy the result on all music I find its quite nice on live recordings helping to give more of that sense of being there. I like this mod so much I am putting ordered a switch to bypass this resistor. I picked up two switches from TE Connectivity for something like $7 each. They have a silver plated copper contact and gold plated solder lugs which should provide more clarity than the alligator clips!