Pass Labs XP 10 and what amp

gene9p · « **on:** 24 Mar 2021, 07:52 pm »

I just picked a used XP10 and it is so detailed yet so harsh. I have been using it for several days now and have tried different cables . I have it paired with a PS audios Stellar s300 that I was using with my Vinnie Rossi LIO, tubes preamp. The Pass is detailed in incredible ways but so harsh too.Some Cd's are incredible, some un listenable. I have yet to find the right combo for my turntable with this preamp as well.I always wanted to try a Pass so I can only think it's the amp that doesn't give me the sound I was hoping for. I cannot afford a new Pass amp but I am wondering what others here are using with their Pass preamps.

RichPark · « **Reply #1 on:** 24 Mar 2021, 11:29 pm »

Try moving your speakers around angle them back. I have had very good results doing this when I wound up with a hyper detailed upgrade. Mark your speakers current location and start playing.

RichPark · « **Reply #2 on:** 24 Mar 2021, 11:42 pm »

When my speakers are angled towards my ears the image floats in the middle and depth of the sound stage is shallow.

If the speakers are parallel with each other the depth of the performance is immense and filles in the area behind the speakers.

When I tilt the speakers back the spacial cues float higher in the room. My system was irritatingly detailed until I started moving things around

RDavidson · « **Reply #3 on:** 25 Mar 2021, 01:13 am »

I had a Pass XP12 and a Stellar S300 I was using in my living room setup for awhile. From what I've read the XP10 is actually warmer and more forgiving than the XP12, but are otherwise comparable. I found the XP12 quite resolving and clean. It was a really good preamp. The only issue I had was that the remote seemed to share a similar code as our cable TV box. Anyway...the only time I felt the S300 wasn't really up to snuff was for at least the first few weeks I owned it. It was quite brittle sounding. With time and use it definitely evened out. It's a very very good amp, especially for the price.

I'm not sure why the XP10 seems harsh. My guess is a few things. 1. It is letting you hear both the good and bad in your music collection. That's the tricky thing about resolution and the "straight wire with gain" ideal. Some are willing to sacrifice some resolution for the sake of more of their music collection being easier to listen to. While others are OK with hearing everything as-is, warts and all. You might be getting the latter here in a larger dose than the LIO gave you. 2. The tubes in your LIO had gone bad. As it is sometimes a slow deterioration process, it is hard to detect this issue until you put in a new pair of tubes or swap in a new component. This happened to me last year with my preamp. All my amplifiers had a warm and pleasing quality...but, I knew at least one of them is not known for this characteristic. I swapped tubes and voila! The old tubes had worn out and became euphonic. The true character of my amplifiers was easy to discern again with the new tubes. 3. As others have suggested, your system was setup around the LIO. Putting the XP10 in the place of your former preamp is like a heart transplant. It works, but isn't quite what you are used to and may require adjustments elsewhere to speaker position, room treatments, and possibly cabling.

What speakers are you using?

I.Greyhound Fan · « **Reply #4 on:** 25 Mar 2021, 01:57 am »

I had a Pass X1 preamp which sat below the XP10. It was not harsh at all. I had it paired with a Pass X250 amp which I still own. I sold the X1 for a BAT tube preamp that I prefer. I have never read that the XP10 is harsh. It is a well regarded preamp. You may want to give Pass Labs a call and see if they think that something is wrong with it. There are a lot of Pass owners on Audioshark.org. You may want to give a shout there.

Do you have an impedance mismatch with the amp and preamp? What sources are you running with it? If you have vinyl, does it sound harsh?

By the way, you can pick up a used X250 amp for around $2500 and a used X250.5 for under $4K. My next upgrade will be to an X250.5 if I do not go to a Luxman Integrated. My son had a pair of Stellar M700 and the Pass amp sounds better.

gene9p · « **Reply #5 on:** 25 Mar 2021, 01:51 pm »

Thanks for the responses. The Lio's tubes are fine, I tube roll regularly and the combo with the Stellars300 is much better than the mosfet amp mod.Now back to the Pass. I am using a Bryston Bda1 dac and a Snell Showcase cd player. Music is detailed like I never heard it b4 but some notes go through my ears..lol. Same with female vocals. Some can be very OUCH. I am using Triode Wire Labs Spirits balanced XLR cables to the Pass. One good thing about having a nice separate dac like the Bryston is that I can lower the output to minus-3 dbs. Right now I am using -2. Vinyl is the BIG issue. I have two phono stages. A PS Audio stellar phono which is quite incredible whether using the balanced outs or the rca's to the Lio but oh so harsh to the Pass. Lot's of musical detail but vocals on some of my favorites have the same issue of too harsh/ bright/ grainy, hard to explain but not right for sure. Using my Manley Chinook seems to tame a lot of the problems and tighten the soundstage but I do like the huge soundstage from the PS. The PS can change gain on the fly and I tried all 3 MM settings via balanced and RCa and I'm not happy with what I am hearing. I was hoping i could just plug and Play the Pass but something is mis matched for sure. That's why the question about alternative amps used with a Pass XP 10.Right now it's not working for me but I don't want to give up that quickly.I can buy/ audition and return an amp or two but I hate to buy something just to return it. I once had a Parasound A21 that I used with several preamps and I am open to suggestions. I see a few Pass 30.5 for sale and I have yet to hear back from Mark at Reno Hi Fi who I left a voicemail yesterday.

Note;vinyl gear is a VPI Classiic 2 with Classic 3 Arm and Valhalla wring..cartridge is a very smooth Soundsmith Boheme,Phono cable is an Audio Sensibility Statement silver cable.

I.Greyhound Fan · « **Reply #6 on:** 25 Mar 2021, 03:57 pm »

I would still consider talking to Pass Labs to see if something is wrong. They are great guys to talk to. You might even get to talk to Wayne Coburn who designs their preamps.

Here are a few reviews on the XP10 and they are nothing like you describe-

https://www.dagogo.com/pass-labs-xp-10-preamplifier-review/

http://enjoythemusic.com/superioraudio/equipment/0712/pass_labs_xp_10_xa_60_5.htm

https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/amplifier/preamplifier/pass-labs-xp-10-stereo-preamplifier/

Ultimately, it probably is not a good match with your gear

gene9p · « **Reply #7 on:** 26 Mar 2021, 03:22 pm »

Definitely a miss match somewhere most likely the amp. I spoke to several vendors who feel the class A/D PS Audio is causing the bright and ringing sound.I hope to call Pass directly too. I sent them an e-mail and it said keep what I already have and not switch over to the Pass..lol.If only it were that easy when the change bug bites. I ordered a Parasound A23 that is an OB, customer return from Safe and Sound. It won't take long to hear the difference using the A/B amp..I hope. If it still is no good then the Pass will move along. If it sounds like it should, fingers crossed, I hope to return the A23 and grab an A21+. I just didn't want to spend the big bucks and have to set up the big amp at this moment but will gladly do so if a change in amp is the solution.

once again, thanks to all who have responded with help.

I.Greyhound Fan · « **Reply #8 on:** 26 Mar 2021, 04:16 pm »

I gave my A21 to my son after I bought my Pass amp. My son eventually bought a pair of PS Audio Stellar 700 mono blocks as the A21 didn't cut it for him as he wanted something that sounded closer to my Pass amp. The 700's sounded much better than the A21, however it had ground loops galore and he returned them and eventually sold the A21 and went with a Cary Integrated 300d which is fabulous by the way. The point I am getting at is that the A23 is not nearly as good as the A21. So you may be disappointed. I have heard the A21+ and it sounds better than the A21.

By the way, you may want to check out an AVA SET 400. They are fabulous sounding. It gave my Pass amp a run for the money. Check out my review on the AVA circle. They have a 30 day return policy.

Good luck with your search.

gene9p · « **Reply #9 on:** 26 Mar 2021, 05:34 pm »

Thanks...I am well aware of the difference with the A23+ compared to the A21 or 21+. I had an A21 a few years down the road and it was really good. I just want to see if an A/AB amp can solve the issues I am having. If yes, then a serious search will begin. The AVA looks interesting. I will look into that. Thanks very much!!!

blownrx7 · « **Reply #10 on:** 27 Mar 2021, 12:17 am »

Gene,
I would look elsewhere in your system besides the XP10 (starting with the S300) for the issue you are experiencing. I had an X350.5 paired with an X0.2 that was modified with better caps and other ps mods. It was smooooooth. I have NEVER heard of ANY Pass preamp sounding harsh. I ended up selling the X0.2 for a PS Audio BHK. Actually the sound betweeen the two was VERY similar despite the fact that one was tube and the other solid state - just nuances between the two that took me a while before I decided to sell the X0.2. The reason was not so much the sound as much as I saved so much space going from 3 chassis' to 1.
Keep the XP10 and trade up on the S300.
Also, just for some amplifier perspective, I had an A21 and a pair of JC1's and neither of them did it for me compared to the X350.5. Don't get me wrong, they were great amps but just didn't have that wow factor for me in my system. It took me a long time to convince myself to spend all that money on the X350.5 but 4 years later I'm still wowed by it!

Another amp I liked (and wiished I kept) were the Aragon Palladium 1K monoblocks. Some say they have a "dark" sound whatever that is but, in my system, they sounded REALLY nice. I never had the opportunity to own an Aragon 8008BB but always wondered if they would give the same magic in one box.

gene9p · « **Reply #11 on:** 27 Mar 2021, 02:04 pm »

Great advice guys. Much appreciated. The A23+ arrives today so I will be able to get it set up this evening and hopefully get a positive sound correction. I always have my eyes open for Pass Labs amps up for sale. They are on my short list for sure if the amp changes works out.
Aargon used to have a lab nearby and I did work for them setting up telecommunications and data lines b4 I retired fro Verizon. For those that are Videophiles , I did the same for Criterion. I loved the Ld's, dvds, at the time, and all those canisters filled with rolls of film all over the place.

gene9p · « **Reply #12 on:** 27 Mar 2021, 08:17 pm »

I see a Pass 30.5 up for sale.any opinions?

Rusty Jefferson · « **Reply #13 on:** 27 Mar 2021, 10:50 pm »

Quote from: gene9p on 26 Mar 2021, 03:22 pm

.....I hope to call Pass directly too. I sent them an e-mail and it said keep what I already have and not switch over to the Pass..lol.If only it were that easy when the change bug bites......

They understand that if the music you were listening to prior to introducing the Pass preamp was basically fine, but since, much of your music is now unlistenable, switching from the Stellar to the Pass amp isn't going to correct that. 8 out of 10 listeners wouldn't be able to distinguish the Pass from the Stellar in a properly run A/B/X test. Will there be differences? Sure, but it won't take unlistenable to incredible.

It's not uncommon to move from a tube preamp to a solid state one in conjunction with a solid state amplifier and get more openness and resolution, but also perceive glare. Finding the sweet spot is the hobby. Get a Pass if you want to experiment, but it won't correct the problem you've described. Your room, cables, and auxiliary equipment all play a part. Perhaps there are things you can do to the Rossi preamp to get more resolution but without increased glare? Or perhaps a change of source? Dacs and digital cables have come a long way in the last decade.

gene9p · « **Reply #14 on:** 28 Mar 2021, 12:39 am »

Okay....thanks
I did everything you mentioned as I stated in above posts to no avail. So now the big news..

I swapped out the PS audio for the Parasound A23+ and it is an amp problem .The A23+ sounds terrific...no more harshness, ringing and yes I am actually listening to Eva Cassidy right now..impossible with the PS in place.In fact it's tempting to keep the A23+ it sounds that good right now but I know there is some serious amp hunting to be done now that the problem has been solved.The A23+ is no A21+ , nor is it a Pass, nor some of the others recommended.For the moment I am going to enjoy the music again after a tough week of failed tweaking. I have 30 days to return the OB A23+ back to safe and sound for a trade up or refund. Let me know what you think about the 30.5 that's for sale or better to stick with a newer amp. I truly appreciate the help that everyone has offered..thanks

this is how the temp set up looks

WGH · « **Reply #15 on:** 28 Mar 2021, 01:00 am »

Glad you found the problem, I was typing a reply just as you posted. It's not relevant now but it could be in the future.

Regarding your new amp hunt, I'll second the AVA SET 400. I use one and love it, the members in our audio group use all sorts of amps, so far none of them have tempted me to change. Larry has a review of the SET 400 and compares it to his Pass X250 and Parasound A21:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=158752.msg1695839#msg1695839

Quote from: Rusty Jefferson on 27 Mar 2021, 10:50 pm

Dacs and digital cables have come a long way in the last decade.

Also interconnects have evolved. If you can somehow finagle, beg, borrow or steal a pair of Hapa Breathe C RCA interconnects you may be pleasantly surprised. I have 2 pairs of the silver but the new copper may be just what your system needs:

"After many A/B comparison between my DIY Silver/Gold Helix and Hapa Audio, the Breathe C just has more transparency and clarity without any brightness, forwardness or harshness. What you hear is a much wider/deeper and expansive soundstage, tighter image focus, better layering and the “chameleon illusion” as if your speakers are not even there…The level of detail and fluidity you hear between and beyond the boundaries of your loudspeakers with the Breathe C is quite astonishing and with the Beauty of Copper… "
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=174850.msg1846757#msg1846757

But the Breathe C is also supremely musical... it loves it when you crank the volume. It has a very coherent sound, and is incredibly smooth. You won't hear any hint of glare coming from the Breathe C.
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=174850.msg1848540#msg1848540

Entire thread: https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=174850.msg1844398#msg1844398

Talk to Pez, he is obsessed with achieving good sound.

gene9p · « **Reply #16 on:** 28 Mar 2021, 01:38 am »

The Ava has my attention. I would want it Balanced in's. Does it have a 12v trigger or do you have to turn it on manually all the time?

I am using Triode Wire Labs Spirit cables, rca's and balanced. Never heard of the breathe C's....thanks

RDavidson · « **Reply #17 on:** 28 Mar 2021, 03:33 am »

What speakers do you have? I have direct experience with several Pass / First Watt amps (including the XA30.5 you were asking about). Without knowing your speakers I'm not sure the XA30.5 would be a good match. It would be a natural match for your preamp of course, but that's a bit less critical than the speaker match.

Rocket · « **Reply #18 on:** 28 Mar 2021, 12:04 pm »

Hi,

It sounds like the preamplifier is very transparent and high quality. You describe exactly what happens when you play excellent records. Unfortunately, rubbish in is rubbish out.

I have an Ambrosia preamplifier and I can reduce the treble if the recording is too harsh.

Good luck.

Cheers Rod

gene9p · « **Reply #19 on:** 28 Mar 2021, 12:41 pm »

I restored an older pair of Snell JIV's floor standing speakers and a pair of Snell KIII's that someone else did the work on. Both are about 92db sensitivity and are 8ohm easy to drive speakers. I sold off the newer speakers a few years ago, Harbeth's, Bryston's, and a pair of power hungry B&W 805 sig's in Birds Eye Red.