upgrade to X5 from Zu Omen Def I?

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genjamon

Re: upgrade to X5 from Zu Omen Def I?
« Reply #20 on: 5 May 2020, 01:44 am »
If I recall correctly, the tweeter in the M3 is a pretty standard pro-grade compression tweeter.  The Sapphire line uses some new fancy ring radiator tweeter or something, and the X series uses a state of the art AMT type tweeter.  I've read reports of others who know the M series speakers who say the new Sapphire and X series are in completely other league of sound refinement in the upper registers.  I could believe it. 

I had the M1 for about a year, which was basically the M3 in a heavier-duty cabinet at a higher price point.  But some Daedalus DA-RMa V2's came my way and were altogether better across the board in detail, refinement, and natural sound.  And now I have sold the Daedalus and settled with Zu Omen Dirty Weekends that I think do a number of things better than the Daedalus did.  Very much more immediate sounding, and more detail too.  I've upgraded the internal cap to Miflex copper foil and soldered all internal connections rather than the cheap metal fasteners used, and the sound is all the more refined and detailed and removing any harshness.  It's quite a different sound than the OB sound I recall from the M1, but I remember being surprised how much detail and mids/high frequency refinement the M1 left on the table compared with the Daedalus.  And the Zu operating with no crossover exceeds even the detail of the Daedalus.  It doesn't have perfect timbre, given the 10" driver is run very high, well into beaming frequencies.  The Daedalus is definitely the more balanced and in many ways more mature speaker.  So with the Zu you have to be in the sweet spot to get realistic sounding real-to-life tones/timbres, but there's an engagement factor that I get with the no-crossover approach of the Zu that I wasn't getting with the M1 for sure, and also more immediacy/engagement than with the Daedalus even though there are tradeoffs with the Daedalus for sure.  Absolutely the soundstage and natural bass of the M1 were both killer.  But the midrange and high frequency details/hash left significant room for improvement.  Not bad, just not as revealing of inner details as I have found since then.

I'm very curious to hear the new designs, though.  The new Sapphire and X-series could very largely address the deficits of the M series in my eyes.

Also, if you were to try the M3, I would absolutely recommend more than a few watts.  I and many others have witnessed them only truly open up with higher powered solid state and class d amplification.  In fact, despite Clayton's assurances about its low-power tube compatibility, I had problems with tubes blowing/dying in my Line Magnetic 845 amp with 22 very robust wpc for a tube amp.  Turns out the impedance swings on the M3 can be quite wild.  Clayton always class d amps at shows with them.  The fact that he's now using lower powered LTA amps with the new series is telling, at least to me, that they're likely much more benign designs for tube amps, and also thrive on good tube sound.  But it's also telling that the LTA amps in particular have so much synergy.  The LTA amps are very very detailed and on the lighter/faster end of the tube spectrum.  I suspect lusher tubes would not be as great of a fit in terms of synergy.  Just a suspicion, though, since I haven't heard the speakers to get a sense of their overall character yet. 

Good luck with your quest!

dealaddict

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Re: upgrade to X5 from Zu Omen Def I?
« Reply #21 on: 5 May 2020, 05:40 am »
@genjamon, thank you very much for sharing your experience.  Actually, I think my Zu has very good mid range, too.  But I always thought maybe I haven’t heard something better yet.  So, in your opinion, the mid range and high frequency is not as good/detail as Zu, right?  My Zu is the Mk I, likely your Dirty Weekend has a newer driver than mine, that may make a difference.

My Zu is 98 dB and 8 ohm, while the M3TM is 93 dB and 16 ohm.  There is a big difference in impediance.  Actually, I don’t fully understand.  I only know higher impedance means easier to drive.  Base on this, i theoretically will get better result / performance on the M3MT than my Zu using the 2A3 amp, right?

That also lead me to think if the M3TM is a good design, because I don’t see 16 ohm speaker very often.  If it is better, why don’t we see it more often?

Shakeydeal

Re: upgrade to X5 from Zu Omen Def I?
« Reply #22 on: 5 May 2020, 08:04 am »
Anyone who has never heard an X series speaker has no idea how it compares to the M series. It’s only speculation. I own the X3,  and I have never heard the M3TM myself so I can only guess how much better my speakers sound.

Since you already have the Almarro amp as well as your SET, why not bring in the X5 for a trial? The Almarro would come closer to being a good match, IMHO.  But you (and I) might be surprised at the other amp. I know that I tried a Decware Torii and with my speakers in my room it didn’t work. Then again, I have a pretty big room and like to listen at a realistic volume much of the time.

Most who have heard both agree that the x series is a big improvement and the x5 is quite a bargain at its price when you factor in the two powered subs.

Shakey


dealaddict

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Re: upgrade to X5 from Zu Omen Def I?
« Reply #23 on: 5 May 2020, 08:26 am »
Yes, I think I will bite the bullet and get the X5.  I think I will always be itching to upgrade. 

BTW, a slightly different question.  It seems I can only get the bass when I play the music loudly.  Or I should say, when playing the music softly, it is harder to notice the bass, am I correct?

Shakeydeal

Re: upgrade to X5 from Zu Omen Def I?
« Reply #24 on: 5 May 2020, 08:45 am »
The bass level is controlled by a potentiometer on the sub amp. It will integrate completely with the main drivers and you will have a balanced sound at any volume level.

Shakey

jachinboazicus

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Re: upgrade to X5 from Zu Omen Def I?
« Reply #25 on: 6 May 2020, 05:10 pm »
Anyone who has never heard an X series speaker has no idea how it compares to the M series. It’s only speculation. I own the X3,  and I have never heard the M3TM myself so I can only guess how much better my speakers sound.

Since you already have the Almarro amp as well as your SET, why not bring in the X5 for a trial? The Almarro would come closer to being a good match, IMHO.  But you (and I) might be surprised at the other amp. I know that I tried a Decware Torii and with my speakers in my room it didn’t work. Then again, I have a pretty big room and like to listen at a realistic volume much of the time.

Most who have heard both agree that the x series is a big improvement and the x5 is quite a bargain at its price when you factor in the two powered subs.

Shakey

I'm hoping to hear the X-series soon. I've owned the M3TS and the M3TM, so i'll post up some impressions once I get the chance.

genjamon

Re: upgrade to X5 from Zu Omen Def I?
« Reply #26 on: 6 May 2020, 07:01 pm »
@genjamon, thank you very much for sharing your experience.  Actually, I think my Zu has very good mid range, too.  But I always thought maybe I haven’t heard something better yet.  So, in your opinion, the mid range and high frequency is not as good/detail as Zu, right?  My Zu is the Mk I, likely your Dirty Weekend has a newer driver than mine, that may make a difference.

My Zu is 98 dB and 8 ohm, while the M3TM is 93 dB and 16 ohm.  There is a big difference in impediance.  Actually, I don’t fully understand.  I only know higher impedance means easier to drive.  Base on this, i theoretically will get better result / performance on the M3MT than my Zu using the 2A3 amp, right?

That also lead me to think if the M3TM is a good design, because I don’t see 16 ohm speaker very often.  If it is better, why don’t we see it more often?

Yes, my Zu DW's have the latest drivers, and also the resistor mods to smooth the impedance, and also upgraded internal cap and soldered connections.  So might not be fully the same sound you know.  But probably same overall character, I bet. 

What I'm talking about in terms of impedance isn't the "nominal" impedance for the speaker that the manufacturers state in their specs.  I'm talking about the impedance curve throughout the entire frequency range.  All speakers have different impedances at different frequencies.  And they can often swing wildly - especially around crossover points, or in low frequencies, or elsewhere based on particular characteristics of the drivers involved.  The stated specs by manufactures are a rough average of this, but what matters to amps often times is not so much the average, but the swings at particular frequency ranges.  An impedance swing can put different strains on amps.  A pronounced or deep dip can put a huge current demand on the amp, while an impedance spike does the opposite in terms of current.  In dynamic loads such as playing music, these big swings are not ideal for tubes. 

The Zu drivers actually have some interesting swings of their own, but not to the point of causing concerns for tubes.  On the other hand, while the M1's (and I assume M3's) were marketed as benign to tube amps due to their "nominal" 8 ohm load and high efficiency, Clayton eventually revealed that they had an impedance dip down below 4 ohms.  This would explain why class d and generally solid state amps might do better with them than low powered tubes.  I also suspect it put some strain on my amps.  I can't say for sure that was the cause of the tube failures I experienced (could have just been the tubes themselves), but the amp has been very reliable with other speakers. 

The M3TM seems to be an attempt to improve the compatibility with tube amps, but from what I remember seeing, while it does shift the "nominal" (average) impedance higher, the impedance curve still swings pretty wildly.  This means a solid state amp still might be a better fit for it.  I feel like I've read user reports that the M3TM still prefers SS/class d over tubes, but can't remember where or when I read that.  But I'm sure there are plenty of users who have tubes with these speakers and love them. 

I'm not trying to shit on the M series or M3 at all.  It's a very nice speaker - sounded great.  Had that wonderful open baffle sound.  Was very balanced and high quality speaker.  I'm just saying I find the Zu has significant strengths of its own, and outperforms the M series to my estimation in some significant categories.  Though certainly not all.  And others would certainly prefer the M series to the Omen or Omen Def.  YMMV and all that.


Tyson

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Re: upgrade to X5 from Zu Omen Def I?
« Reply #27 on: 6 May 2020, 07:27 pm »
X series is going to have self-powered bass sections, so you really really really cannot extrapolate the M series performance to the X series.  Particularly with tube amps.  The X series is going to be a much better match for tube amps because the bass load is removed.

genjamon

Re: upgrade to X5 from Zu Omen Def I?
« Reply #28 on: 6 May 2020, 07:29 pm »
I completely agree. I was only talking about M series because he was thinking about going that direction.

jachinboazicus

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Re: upgrade to X5 from Zu Omen Def I?
« Reply #29 on: 7 May 2020, 12:01 am »
I'm not trying to shit on the M series or M3 at all.  It's a very nice speaker - sounded great.  Had that wonderful open baffle sound.  Was very balanced and high quality speaker.  I'm just saying I find the Zu has significant strengths of its own, and outperforms the M series to my estimation in some significant categories.  Though certainly not all.  And others would certainly prefer the M series to the Omen or Omen Def.  YMMV and all that.

Really interesting to hear(read) your experience as I went from the Omens to the M3TS, then the M3TM and can't say i'd ever go back to Zu or any enclosed speaker.

Its all so subjective and simultaneously interesting.

Are you in UT, or just have a penchant for UT-based speaker brands?

I'm currently running the M3TM's via a Marantz 4300 and a Schiit dac.

dealaddict

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Re: upgrade to X5 from Zu Omen Def I?
« Reply #30 on: 7 May 2020, 01:59 am »
I bought the X5, it is a used unit.  If I am lucky, will get it on Fri.  Then I will be busy over the weekend.  Will update this thread with my impression.

jachinboazicus

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Re: upgrade to X5 from Zu Omen Def I?
« Reply #31 on: 7 May 2020, 02:42 pm »
Looking forward to hearing your impressions.

Where'd you find a used X5 for sale?

dealaddict

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Re: upgrade to X5 from Zu Omen Def I?
« Reply #32 on: 7 May 2020, 04:20 pm »
It is from a Canada buy and sale website called CanucksAudioMart.  That’s how I learn about this brand started by that ad.

Wind Chaser

Re: upgrade to X5 from Zu Omen Def I?
« Reply #33 on: 7 May 2020, 04:53 pm »
It is from a Canada buy and sale website called CanucksAudioMart.

I saw those, you got a pretty sweet deal. Were you able to negotiate a better deal than his asking price?

shadowlight

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Re: upgrade to X5 from Zu Omen Def I?
« Reply #34 on: 7 May 2020, 05:25 pm »
Congratulation.  Please try the Almarro with the X5 also and let us know how you like the sound.

dealaddict

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Re: upgrade to X5 from Zu Omen Def I?
« Reply #35 on: 7 May 2020, 05:35 pm »
I saw those, you got a pretty sweet deal. Were you able to negotiate a better deal than his asking price?

Yes and no, depends on how you see it.  The seller is very nice to absorb part of the shipping. 

Wind Chaser

Re: upgrade to X5 from Zu Omen Def I?
« Reply #36 on: 7 May 2020, 05:58 pm »
Well you saved yourself a few Loonies and they are well on the way to being broken in.  :thumb: :thumb:

dealaddict

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Re: upgrade to X5 from Zu Omen Def I?
« Reply #37 on: 9 May 2020, 04:22 am »
Ok, ladies and gentlemen, I received the speakers, hooked it up, listen for 2 hours or so, and here are my thoughts. 

First of all, these speakers are VERY heavy, much heavier than I expect given it doesn't have a box.  I think it is even heavier than my Zu Omen Def I.  For the sound, I can say, YES, it is a different level.  If I want to summarize in one sentence, that is, I can hear things I didn't hear from the Zu before. 

1. The bass of course is better with the subwoofer.  It provides a good floor of low frequencies, and I can hear the drums that I haven't heard before.  I think it sounds like those big Timpani drum in orchestra.

2. It is more detailed and transparent.  The female vocal is crystal clear.  Again, I can hear things in this high mid frequency range that I didn't hear before.  In one song, there is a wind blowing sound that I never notice it.  At the beginning, I feel it is slightly "brighter" than the Zu.  Now, I feel it is revealing the frequencies that not able to reveal by the Zu.  The Zu sounds like I put a layer of "thing" in front of the X5.  Combine with better bass, it has a wider dynamic range, on both ends.

3. It has more depth.  The Zu sound more compressed, meaning the vocal and instruments are relatively closed, even though the sound coming at a depth behind the walls.  For the X5, the vocal all of sudden is more forward, feels like sound just came out in the middle of the air, then some instruments are further back behind the wall.  I think I misunderstood what "depth" means before.  I thought depth means the sound comes further back away from the speakers.  But I think I am wrong.  X5 gives me a sense of depth by having separate layers, something sound closer, something sound further away, that relativity gives me a sense of depth.  With the vocal coming out from the air, it also gives me a very 3D, holographic sense.

4. Saxophone sounds more airy.  I played saxophone myself, so, definitely, I can tell it sounds more like real saxophone in the X5.  The sound is more open, which is as expected with the open baffle, no surprise here.

I never know what I missed until now.  You don't know what you don't know.  But to be fair, the Zu Omen Def I is 1/3 of the price of the X5.  While the above improvements are audible, but not by a lot.  I think the Zu Omen Def are still good speakers for the price.  Actually, in the first 10 mins, I feel ... oh no, not much better than my Zu, and it is 3x the price, what am i going to do with them.  It took me about 2 hours of listening with different songs, then I realize all those improvements.  I actually feel the Zu Omen Def I is a pretty good deal for people with a lower budget.

In conclusion, I am happy with the purchase.  I get what I hope to get - the openness, the holographic, the bass.  The detail and transparency exceed my expectation.  It is not as holographic as the Magnepan (I think it is a 2.5 because they are huge, driving by expensive, huge Macintosh mono blocks) based on my memory, but that Magnepan is so big and ugly.  Those Macintosh mono blocks alone are more expensive than the X5s.  This X5 provides a good balance of everything!    :thumb:

So, now, I have a question.  Does anyone know what are those bass program selections supposed to mean?  There is 1, 2, and 3.  Then there is a Prot which is not selectable.  I tried different programs and can't detect the difference.

sarora9

Re: upgrade to X5 from Zu Omen Def I?
« Reply #38 on: 9 May 2020, 03:34 pm »
Going by my experience with X3 the sound can be improved *a lot* by (a) break-in for 30-40 hrs, and then improvement past 200 hrs (b) tweaking positioning.

Start with speakers as far out in the room as your space (or spouse) will allow and then move them back incrementally. Also various toe-in angles.

Enjoy!

dealaddict

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Re: upgrade to X5 from Zu Omen Def I?
« Reply #39 on: 9 May 2020, 05:18 pm »
Going by my experience with X3 the sound can be improved *a lot* by (a) break-in for 30-40 hrs, and then improvement past 200 hrs (b) tweaking positioning.

Start with speakers as far out in the room as your space (or spouse) will allow and then move them back incrementally. Also various toe-in angles.

Enjoy!

I bought them used.  The previous owner is the 2nd owner and he seems to be a pro audiophile.  I think it is already broken in.  For the placement, I am somewhat limited with the Zu’s right behind the X5’s.  haven’t figure out what to do with them yet.  They are great speakers, don’t want to sell, but I don’t have space to store them as well. 

I listen to the X5’s again this morning.  Oh man, that AMT driver is awesome.  Before, I don’t really understand what people mean when they say the sound is transparent.  But now, I can “feel” using this term to describe the AMT.  It is truly a different league.  The previous owner had the M3 (not Sapphire) And various Zu speakers before.  He said the tweeter of M3 sound similar to Zu, and both use Eminent driver.  The AMT is in the league as the B&W diamond tweeter.  He has a 802D.