Expensive power cables?

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Napalm

Re: Expensive power cables?
« Reply #60 on: 31 Jul 2010, 12:53 am »
hehe, thats a funny statement since napalm is just so gun ho on tone controls. I wonder if there is any relationship between his cabling choices and his demand for tone controls....

If he took time and cabled he might not feel lacking.

Unlike cables, real tone controls are infinitely adjustable without further expense.

Nap.  :thumb:

Laundrew

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Re: Expensive power cables?
« Reply #61 on: 31 Jul 2010, 01:34 am »
^^^ Tone Controls   :o :nono:

 :P :wink: :D

Be well...

Napalm

Re: Expensive power cables?
« Reply #62 on: 31 Jul 2010, 02:24 am »
^^^ Tone Controls   :o :nono:

 :P :wink: :D

Be well...

That's what audiophile mags tell us so they could peddle expensive cables.

Nap.  :P

werd

Re: Expensive power cables?
« Reply #63 on: 31 Jul 2010, 02:30 am »
That's what audiophile mags tell us so they could peddle expensive cables.

Nap.  :P

You are missing out Napalm, and i am being serious. They do not have to be expensive. You can get models a couple years old for cheap on agon. Like 1000 dollars cables for 300 bucks.

BrysTony

Re: Expensive power cables?
« Reply #64 on: 31 Jul 2010, 02:32 am »
That's what audiophile mags tell us so they could peddle expensive cables.

Nap.  :P

Hmmmm...  Back in the day, we had hard-wired power cords and tone controls.

Tony

Waker

Re: Expensive power cables?
« Reply #65 on: 31 Jul 2010, 07:03 am »
Since there's no consensus on whether or not expensive aftermarket cables help audio quality--there seems to be a lot of common experience with tonal changes , however--let's start back at the bottom of the product options, back with what you wouldn't want in your connection schemes, and ask why. Such as, why would you not trust those stock RCA patch cords that where always supplied with front-end pieces like decks, EQs, CD players, etc? Why not use that lamp cord for your amp's AC line, or that zip cord speaker wires on those big spools at the hardware store? All of these products will do the basic job of supplying current.  Would these cords and wires lack weight and bass foundation? Would they introduce EMI into your playback? Would you have that black-velvet noise floor that so involves you in the music? (I am not assuming any answers here, just asking.)   

Really, instead of taking potshots at the fraud and hype, and at one another, let's turn the usual, tired, unwinnable debate around and discuss what we would not accept in our systems, stating beliefs and experiences as to why some things just aren't acceptable.  I will just say that in my experience with adding connection products and line devices, the one idea that has always made sense is that the more noise I seem to have removed from the chain, the better is the backdrop and foundation in the music, allowing more of the music to come through.  Another observation--we are building systems that are far above consumer-grade offerings, so it seems to make sense that no part of an audiophile's system should be ordinary.  So, what would you consider inadequate, and why?           

Napalm

Re: Expensive power cables?
« Reply #66 on: 31 Jul 2010, 01:35 pm »
You are missing out Napalm, and i am being serious. They do not have to be expensive. You can get models a couple years old for cheap on agon. Like 1000 dollars cables for 300 bucks.

I think it's more like $20 worth of cables for 300 bucks.  :P

Nap.

Napalm

Re: Expensive power cables?
« Reply #67 on: 31 Jul 2010, 02:05 pm »
Since there's no consensus on whether or not expensive aftermarket cables help audio quality--there seems to be a lot of common experience with tonal changes , however--let's start back at the bottom of the product options, back with what you wouldn't want in your connection schemes, and ask why. Such as, why would you not trust those stock RCA patch cords that where always supplied with front-end pieces like decks, EQs, CD players, etc? Why not use that lamp cord for your amp's AC line, or that zip cord speaker wires on those big spools at the hardware store? All of these products will do the basic job of supplying current.  Would these cords and wires lack weight and bass foundation? Would they introduce EMI into your playback? Would you have that black-velvet noise floor that so involves you in the music? (I am not assuming any answers here, just asking.)   

Really, instead of taking potshots at the fraud and hype, and at one another, let's turn the usual, tired, unwinnable debate around and discuss what we would not accept in our systems, stating beliefs and experiences as to why some things just aren't acceptable.  I will just say that in my experience with adding connection products and line devices, the one idea that has always made sense is that the more noise I seem to have removed from the chain, the better is the backdrop and foundation in the music, allowing more of the music to come through.  Another observation--we are building systems that are far above consumer-grade offerings, so it seems to make sense that no part of an audiophile's system should be ordinary.  So, what would you consider inadequate, and why?           

I do use those RCA cables (at least those that are short and shielded), and I use the manufacturer supplied power cables for all my components (unless they were too short and I needed to replace with longer ones). As for speaker cables I noticed that the no name ones were of insufficient gauge for my application and they also tend to oxidize quickly to a green-blue color. 

I consider inadequate stuff that is of dubious provenience (and I cannot trust the stated specs) and/or has obvious shortcomings (like oxidized cables).

As for tonal changes I noticed that the most effective method to achieve them (in absence of tone controls) is to move your speakers around.

Nap.

KnowTalent

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Re: Expensive power cables?
« Reply #68 on: 31 Jul 2010, 07:45 pm »
Hello,

I've got two 7B SST amps, and my dealer has told me that I'm not getting the most out of them with their standard power cables.  And I should spend several hundred US dollars on a power cable. What's the story here?  I find it hard to believe that Bryston would make these sorts of Amplifiers and fail to provide adequate power cables.  Or am being too incredulous?

Thanks

Ron   

In the end we always split off in two camps...

Those who are recommeding you engage in activities that will take money out of your pocket VS. those who say "save" your money.    ....or spend it on something like more music, room treatments....something for the wife :thumb:  :icon_lol:

Which camp is more likely to have a neutral agenda?


werd

Re: Expensive power cables?
« Reply #69 on: 31 Jul 2010, 08:06 pm »
In the end we always split off in two camps...

Those who are recommeding you engage in activities that will take money out of your pocket VS. those who say "save" your money.    ....or spend it on something like more music, room treatments....something for the wife :thumb:  :icon_lol:

Which camp is more likely to have a neutral agenda?

Or you can be the guy who takes it seriousily enought to dish out enough cash for a  pair  of 7Bs and then have the common sense to look into buying a decent cords for it.

Geez.....

vegasdave

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Re: Expensive power cables?
« Reply #70 on: 31 Jul 2010, 08:44 pm »
Unlike cables, real tone controls are infinitely adjustable without further expense.

Nap.  :thumb:

True, but the tone controls have an effect on the signal. However, no recordings are perfect, so why not adjust them to your tastes?

1oldguy

Re: Expensive power cables?
« Reply #71 on: 31 Jul 2010, 09:29 pm »
Or you can be the guy who takes it seriously enough to dish out enough cash for a  pair  of 7Bs and then have the common sense to look into buying a decent cords for it.

Geez.....

I feel there is some decent logic in this.One doesn't have to buy $10,000.00 PC to have an up grade.But I feel that werd has a point.A pair of 7B's are rather expensive......even a little upgrade in the 100 to 200 dollar price range would buy some nice upgraded PC.


skunark

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Re: Expensive power cables?
« Reply #72 on: 31 Jul 2010, 10:39 pm »
Don't forget to replace your house wiring as well...  :thumb:


konut

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Re: Expensive power cables?
« Reply #73 on: 31 Jul 2010, 10:53 pm »
While I'm sure that Bryston supplies cables that are adequate, they might not be optimal. One has to consider the cables in the context of the system as a whole. If. for instance, the speakers and source are mid-fi level components, then after market cables would not offer any readily discernible improvement in the perception of resolution enhancement. On the other hand, if the source and speakers are capable of  better than average articulation, well engineered(<$100) cables MIGHT improve the presentation to a discernable degree, subject to system synergy. Those that argue that manufacture supplied ICs and PCs are all one needs, with no consideration for the rest of the system, might not have experienced situations where this is simply not the case. As with most components in the upper echelons of stereo gear, those few extra top percentage points of improvement might cost $1000s, while just below that, reasonable improvement might be obtained for slightly over $100.

skunark

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Re: Expensive power cables?
« Reply #74 on: 31 Jul 2010, 11:53 pm »
The simple fact that all of us have $2/foot wiring going to the outlets makes it extremely hard for me to understand why one would pay $200/foot from the wall to the amp/power conditioner.

I can't seem to find any reviews with any measurements that at least verifies that the gauge of the wire is correct, let alone that they reject noise or reduce distortion, all of which are measurable.   I did find these articles interesting:

http://www.audioholics.com/education/cables/top-ten-signs-an-audio-cable-vendor-is-selling-you-snake-oil
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/feature-article-blind-test-power-cords-12-2004.html

Furthermore, if a cable manufacture claims that their product is shielded, provides a low noise floor, reduce distortion, etc, they should at a minimum provide the details of their conclusion.   I have yet been able to find a manufacture that publishes those details.

We all review the specifications for the components we buy, why treat cables any different?   Noise rejection on shielded cables, gauge, resistance, capacitance, etc are all measurable requirements when you sell cables to NASA, Aereospace industry or even to Bryston.

Again, you would be better off running a dedicated line to a dedicated outlet than to purchase an expensive power cable.

werd

Re: Expensive power cables?
« Reply #75 on: 1 Aug 2010, 12:07 am »
My soundstage has come a long way from the days with my 4bsst. Right now i have excellent high freq control with nice air. The only treble information i hear is by the instruments. I do not have any high freq glare that smears right across the soundstage. I have really nice positioning of all instruments. When i hear treble i only hear it from the individual instruments. It does not smear at all. This is can be a bit of a shock to people as its not what they are use to.  I would imagine it would sound dark to some people but it really isnt. All the instruments really have strong treble response when you listen to it. Its just not smeared all over so it can be a shock to anyone not use to it.

I bring this up because when i put the stock cable back on my 14B  still had a nice treble but it didnt dazzle.. It was dark. Everything just shrunk a bit and all instruments just sort got sucked into each other. When i put my gutwire back on it all came back. Like i mentioned i have excellent high freq control. That gutwire just energizes it with no smear (or the best i have heard). It opened all back up to where i want to be.

so for me the stock cable makes zero sense. I am not going to nerf my soundstage by using something that is clearly inferior. Why would i do that?

Laundrew

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Re: Expensive power cables?
« Reply #76 on: 1 Aug 2010, 12:15 am »
Again, you would be better off running a dedicated line to a dedicated outlet than to purchase an expensive power cable.

I beleive that this would be the best route to go by far with a dedicated outlet :thumb: I would probably still purchase Argentum power cords for my amplifiers to match my audio cables - my vanity peeks out once again  :P

Be well...

skunark

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Re: Expensive power cables?
« Reply #77 on: 1 Aug 2010, 12:28 am »
Werd,

Do you connect your 14B to a power conditioner or straight to the wall?     

If you use a power conditioner between the outlet and your amp, do you use a gutwire there as well?    For either answer, what do you use between the house breaker box and the outlet?   

skunark

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Re: Expensive power cables?
« Reply #78 on: 1 Aug 2010, 12:35 am »
Gutwire recommends 50-100 hours of burn-in for their power cables, so you probably should do the same with the Bryston cable and report back..

Favorite quote from gutwire:
Quote
Did you know that the tightness of the jacket materials could change the sound? Our jacket materials are designed to be loose. After numerous experiments, the tightness of the jacket materials does affect the sound significantly. If the jacket materials fitted the cable very tightly, the sound of music would have been very constraint and the "vividness" of music would have disappeared.

Bryston cable doesn't have a jacket, so it should be fine here...

Elizabeth

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Re: Expensive power cables?
« Reply #79 on: 1 Aug 2010, 12:40 am »
One way to look at the "last few feet" of the wire..
The very last few feet, the electricity changes in amazing ways: It stops being a continuous 60HZ 120volt signal, and becomes an incredibly complex waveform we call music. All that happens in the VERY last few feet of the electrical path.
So........
(not to fight.. just a comment..)