AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Owner's Circles => Vapor Audio => Topic started by: dbx on 30 Jun 2017, 04:34 pm
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Ive notice that across the line of Vapor Audio Speakers - that the cost of speakers has increased dramatically - in some cases by 50% or more. The most significant is from Nimbus, Joule, and of course - everyones favorite :icon_lol: :icon_lol: :icon_lol: the Perfect Storm.
Why the steep price increases ? I am curious.
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Ive notice that across the line of Vapor Audio Speakers - that the cost of speakers has increased dramatically - in some cases by 50% or more. The most significant is from Nimbus, Joule, and of course - everyones favorite :icon_lol: :icon_lol: :icon_lol: the Perfect Storm.
Why the steep price increases ? I am curious.
The development process, a partnering of the early adopters and Vapor, is over. The speaker prices are finally only beginning to approach what they are actually worth. In my humble opinion, the Nimbus, for example, is easily a $40,000 speaker. Compare what you get with it against, say, the Raidho D1.1 and you'll see what I mean. Yeah, Raidho advertises heavily and needs to cover those costs, so when you can get a Nimbus for the same price as a pair of 6" monitors, you're still getting a bargain.
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The development process, a partnering of the early adopters and Vapor, is over. The speaker prices are finally only beginning to approach what they are actually worth. In my humble opinion, the Nimbus, for example, is easily a $40,000 speaker. Compare what you get with it against, say, the Raidho D1.1 and you'll see what I mean. Yeah, Raidho advertises heavily and needs to cover those costs, so when you can get a Nimbus for the same price as a pair of 6" monitors, you're still getting a bargain.
What they're worth is defined by what someones prepared to pay - a good used pair can't sell for $8000, price recently dropped to $7500. A big gap between a projected $40k value and a $22,995 list. Worth isn't just defined by component cost and comparative cost, in order to gain credibility as a reliable supplier I would have dropped my price to recover credibility. With the unanimous praise laid on the speakers it would be a shame if more of us couldn't get the opportunity to listen to them rather than be discouraged by a price increase :duh:
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Reading Philistine's post I am left wondering is it the all too common Vapor hating or the equally common disillusion that a high-end audio system is an 'investment'? With luxury goods the rule is buy it and walk out of the store or drive off the lot and 30%, 40%, 50% of what you paid vanishes in a 'poof' of smoke. Luxury automobiles are a good example of this. After a few years a Mercedes-Benz AMG that cost $120,000 new can be had for under $20,000. Its a pay to play world and inherent in indulging ourselves in luxury goods is both the means and willingness to produce the ca$h.
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Well, that is ashame. I should have jumped on these while I could. I could have been a Nimbus or Joule owner - had I ever had the privilege to even hear them with someone near by New York (hint hint...)
However, I do admit that with price costs going up, it would make it more prohibitive to be a proud owner of Vapor Audio Speakers. I would still love to hear these speakers though !!!!
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About fucking time!
Biggest reason why people don't like Vapor or buy them used... Ryan is so busy that you have to wait an eternity because him and Pete can only go so fast, basically waiting on new orders to keep the flow going to finish old orders... AKA the problem has always been charging too little for several speakers models, leaving them inaccesible to customers.
If they can use the money to make infastructure to whip them out quickly with better production quality then they'll be doing great. I would make my best efforts to keep the bookshelve speakers very affordable. There are limits, but if you can streamline and greatly improve the business then the costs will go down for small speakers. Why? Because you're not just trying to sell a pair of bookshelves, you're trying to gain some loyalty with a great product for when they want to upgrade or tell friends about Vapor.
And who knows what the future will bring for innovation and speaker models, for sure it won't be coming without some capitol.
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Reading Philistine's post I am left wondering is it the all too common Vapor hating or the equally common disillusion that a high-end audio system is an 'investment'? With luxury goods the rule is buy it and walk out of the store or drive off the lot and 30%, 40%, 50% of what you paid vanishes in a 'poof' of smoke. Luxury automobiles are a good example of this. After a few years a Mercedes-Benz AMG that cost $120,000 new can be had for under $20,000. Its a pay to play world and inherent in indulging ourselves in luxury goods is both the means and willingness to produce the ca$h.
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I'd like to know where I can get a few year old AMG for 17% of it's original price. Seems fishy to me.
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...it won't be coming without some capitol.
Maybe you mean capital. :icon_lol:
Lots of alternatives out there. Doubling the price of a product, especially when you can't deliver, usually spells one thing.
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About fucking time!
Biggest reason why people don't like Vapor or buy them used... Ryan is so busy that you have to wait an eternity because him and Pete can only go so fast, basically waiting on new orders to keep the flow going to finish old orders... AKA the problem has always been charging too little for several speakers models, leaving them inaccesible to customers.
Not the exact response that I was looking for. :roll: :roll: :roll:
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Maybe you mean capital. :icon_lol:
Lots of alternatives out there. Doubling the price of a product, especially when you can't deliver, usually spells one thing.
In some industries yes, in this case they're doing the small business owner no no's, taking on too much because they under valued themsleves. If you put a dollar an hour figure to Vapor speakers you know they're not making enough, and need to sell more at a little higher prices so they can hire skilled help. Its obvious when you consider no one, ever, has sold speakers thag take that much work at those prices.
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I'd like to know where I can get a few year old AMG for 17% of it's original price. Seems fishy to me.
Betcha it's pretty easy to find one that's about 4-5 years old for about 50% of list.
I was in shock when I was at an Audi dealer to pick up my car and had to kill a few minutes while they washed it after service. I walked around the "Pre-Owned" area and saw a 4 year old AMG that was less than what I had just payed for my "Demo" Audi. I can't remember the specifics, but I believe it was a 4 year old AMG CL55 at about 45% of list price, and this was at a Dealership (Walter's in Riverside California).
The reason they lose so much value, even if they are in perfect shape, is that they are so sophisticated. Everybody knows that if anything does go wrong, it's going to cost a fortune fixing it. That's the reason I got rid of my Audi when the Warranty expired, even though there was nothing wrong with it. I took a bit of a hit, but thought it was the wise thing to due under my circumstances at the time.
.....sure was a nice car though.
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Maybe you mean capital. :icon_lol:
Lots of alternatives out there. Doubling the price of a product, especially when you can't deliver, usually spells one thing.
Sadly there have been a few examples of what that spells here on AudioCircle.
I do think that if Vapor is to survive, they probably had to raise prices AND come up with a more sustainable business model.
George
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Reading Philistine's post I am left wondering is it the all too common Vapor hating or the equally common disillusion that a high-end audio system is an 'investment'? With luxury goods the rule is buy it and walk out of the store or drive off the lot and 30%, 40%, 50% of what you paid vanishes in a 'poof' of smoke. Luxury automobiles are a good example of this. After a few years a Mercedes-Benz AMG that cost $120,000 new can be had for under $20,000. Its a pay to play world and inherent in indulging ourselves in luxury goods is both the means and willingness to produce the ca$h.
You are directionally correct, but not quite accurate on how Mercedes or any of the German luxury cars depreciate. Four to five years later you should still expect to pay around 40-50% of list for a car in excellent condition with low miles. Obviously, lowering the condition and raising the miles will impact the discount off the original list price.
I have purchased my last few cars used and saved quite a bit:
2009 BMW M3 - 5 years old, mint, low miles, around 45% of list
2007 MINI JCW+ - 9 years old, mint, low miles, around 25% of list
2001 Audi A6 - 15 years old, good condition, good miles, 5% of list
George
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Many high end brands (audio) retain value extremely well. But they tend to be very established. Vapor is making the right decisions to get there. And Vapor is still cheaper than them by miles.
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Hate to disagree, but high end audio is going the way of the dodo except ultra high end. You need a brand to charge so much. Vapor does not yet have that brand.
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Hate to disagree, but high end audio is going the way of the dodo except ultra high end. You need a brand to charge so much. Vapor does not yet have that brand.
Dunno. Look at the positive coverage and awards they receive at shows. That's how you build a brand. The great looks don't hurt either (talking about the speakers, not Ryan, Pete and Ed).
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I just checked the website and the pricing doesn't seem out of range when compared to the market. In fact, they may still be under pricing their speakers. Most high end brands aren't custom made, so one can expect to pay a huge premium for that. If a mistake has been made, it was charging relatively low prices in the first place. But that's typical of young companies.
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I just checked the website and the pricing doesn't seem out of range when compared to the market. In fact, they may still be under pricing their speakers. Most high end brands aren't custom made, so one can expect to pay a huge premium for that. If a mistake has been made, it was charging relatively low prices in the first place. But that's typical of young companies.
But here on AC most people are cheap bastards, so price hikes are going to piss those people off, on principal.
Note - I myself am a cheap bastard. But expensive gear doesn't piss me off any more :D
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Based on what I've read, they better be highly reliable and get their product out when they say they will and be very clear with their communication from now on.
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They may make a great product. That isn't enough. I deal with companies that make great products all the time. I largely help them sell themselves and go out of business. Happens all the time.
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They may make a great product. That isn't enough. I deal with companies that make great products all the time. I largely help them sell themselves and go out of business. Happens all the time.
This.
I don't think anyone is saying that Vapor doesn't make a great product. The issue is, there needs to be more relation to the consumer base. There are a lot of highly knowledgeable people on these boards, so they easily appreciate things that could make Vapor stand out.
The average consumer, that has 30K disposable income, couldn't care less about cabinet construction. A healthy portion of what they are paying for is the experience.
Wilson, Focal, VS, Vandersteen, Rockport, these are long standing companies with healthy dealer networks. Someone looking to spend 30K on a speaker is going to expect the amenities that come with purchasing a speaker for that price. The dealer support, reliability, warranty, company history, and resale value will all factor in.
Does The Nimbus White sonically "crush" a comparably priced speaker from Wilson? I am sure some people would say so, but I've never heard both in the same system, so I don't know.
What I do know, is that if someone had 30K to spend on speakers, they could walk down to their nearest Wilson audio dealer, and if they enjoyed the sound, likely have the speaker within three months, maybe less. All of their questions would be answered, timely, by either the dealer, or someone from the company. All of these things matter, probably more to a lot of people than the overall sound.
If Vapor is going to succeed at these new price points, they need to refine their experience. Yes, it is very cool to sell people on the idea of custom speakers. Yes the product is excellent. However, its the after deposit interaction that will matter most. Was the timeframe met, and was I communicated with in a manner consummate with asking 30K+ for my product?
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Some of you may know that we have been trying to get something with the "Vapor Sound" into the dealer market so that those "amenities" and wait times would be taken care of.
To that end we have teamed up with a manufacturer in Paducah, Kentucky, young men with a passion for audio and a facility capable of producing quantity in a timely manner.
Ryan and I have designed a line of speakers for them; applied our knowledge of enclosure design and enlisted our relationships with top driver manufacturers. We are actively courting dealers at this time to carry this lineup. Our first shipment of custom drivers is due in a couple weeks and manufacture of multiple sets will begin. A dealership in Chicago will have a pair for auditioning soon after, and we have also been in contact with dealers in Las Vegas, NYC, and other locations.
If you want to experience the "Vapor Sound" without the wait for custom works of art built to spec, then check out what the guys at Vehement are doing.
https://www.facebook.com/vehementaudio/
https://vehementaudio.com/
(https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/18835753_1931817183730701_1916465070969209366_n.jpg?oh=595d2589e87a190945e975d098cdf42d&oe=59D02422)
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Now that is a great modern day business move. I'm sure there are more things to come.
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But here on AC most people are cheap bastards, so price hikes are going to piss those people off, on principal.
Note - I myself am a cheap bastard. But expensive gear doesn't piss me off any more :D
That's because you got yours already! :lol:
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Now that is a great modern day business move. I'm sure there are more things to come.
Couldn't agree more. Hope this move brings nothing but success!
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It doesn't matter what Vapor charges for their custom builds if they don't fix their underlying operations and communications issues. Operationally I would focus on shorter and more predictable build times followed by improved finish quality. I won't even talk about the lack of communication with Ryan other than to say I still haven't heard from him since 3 Sep 2016 (that pretty much says it all in my book).
Todd
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My $,02... Vapor has always been underpriced for what they offer, but otoh that's what it takes to compete in the value-oriented direct-sale business. Those who have purchased them for previous pricing are lucky.
I think a 2nd line of speakers sold through dealers is a great way to go but I also think these need to be higher-end and more expensive vs the direct-sale line. I don't think the Nimbus on up are appropriate speakers for direct-sale, they need to cost too much. The speakers need to be priced to compete in the market they are intended for and imo Pete is right that the Nimbus should be at least $40k and should be sold through dealers. The Perfect Storm needs to be at least $80k. In a luxury market it makes no sense to compete on value, and imo trying to price speakers like the Nimbus on up in a value market doesn't make sense. If my top priority is performance for the money I'm not going to buy fancy cabinets anyways... the added cost for curved cabinets with fancy finishing is a total luxury expenditure imo.
I mean, if I were a potential Vehement customer I'd look up Vapor and then probably order a Vapor speaker instead... $16k for the Vehement Brezza vs $14k for Vapor Derecho? I'll take the latter!
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The speakers need to be priced to compete in the market they are intended for and imo Pete is right that the Nimbus should be at least $40k and should be sold through dealers.
That's a really interesting point! I have heard Ryan wants to continue his "custom work of art" builds in more or less the same fashion he is doing today, albeit at a higher price and lower volume.
If Vapor were to sell these custom speakers through a dealer network, they would have to create dealer demo stock (a loooooog and fairly expensive proposition given today's model) and then fix the operations issues I mentioned earlier. Put yourself in the dealer's position of selling a $80k speaker and then having to explain the build status to a high maintenance and demanding customer. Not an enviable position to be put in.
These things could be addressed with some working capital and a streamlined operations process, so I agree with DaveC113 that it would make more sense to sell the high dollar range via a dealer network. But if and only if the problems are fixed.
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Interesting, I figured the Nimbus and Aurora's would be the only ones that could be kept lower in price since the construction, while very nice, isn't exactly at the crazy level of stacked plywood. Also I thought maybe they'd end up being the only direct sale models.
To me it seems like they would best be served by having a lot of carcases ready to go. A dealer or direct (you can do direct for states without dealers, and any states with dealers can not do direct, you have to maintain MSRP while direct) just chooses a limited set number of veneer's and colors. Each speaker can have say two classes the normal and SE, where the SE receives upgraded crossovers. (yes only two options). They all have the best standard binding posts that work the best for the speaker/vapor/customer. Inquires for custom veneers can be made at a painstaking extra charge, and I do mean like $3000 probably min. Even though the veneer may only cost $100 more, the problem is the value of the time taken for that would have been spent making a lot more money doing something else. This all would equal much faster delivery times, ideally never exceeding 3 months. They need the prices to hire skilled guys so that all stages of production can be happening at the same time, and an office person is a must to keep it all organized. Ryan will obviously continue R&D, HR manager, quality control, training, etc.
Dave, I have to admit, I like the Derecho looks more than the Brezza, but I'm not everyone.
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Reading Philistine's post I am left wondering is it the all too common Vapor hating or the equally common disillusion that a high-end audio system is an 'investment'? With luxury goods the rule is buy it and walk out of the store or drive off the lot and 30%, 40%, 50% of what you paid vanishes in a 'poof' of smoke. Luxury automobiles are a good example of this. After a few years a Mercedes-Benz AMG that cost $120,000 new can be had for under $20,000. Its a pay to play world and inherent in indulging ourselves in luxury goods is both the means and willingness to produce the ca$h.
Nothing to do with Vapor hating, just a case of ethics, values and good business practice. I wish Vapor well and believe the product is probably very good.
If you look at the resale value of other speaker manufacturers here, Salk etc, they get a considerably higher resale margin - 60% plus. My comments are related to the deflated value of used Vapor speakers being attributed to persistent customer issues related to delayed delivery schedules and non-communication with customers once money is sent. A price increase isn't going to attract new customers, to build confidence back up in the brand timely supply is going to be the key, I would offer new customers an incentive such as escrow to allay any concerns related to delivery performance.
It's also the same shill's that jump in when anyone posts less than positive, similar pattern with SP Tech/Aether Audio.
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(http://www.graduatetutor.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/shift-of-the-supply-curve.gif)
Makes sense to me
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Nothing to do with Vapor hating, just a case of ethics, values and good business practice. I wish Vapor well and believe the product is probably very good.
If you look at the resale value of other speaker manufacturers here, Salk etc, they get a considerably higher resale margin - 60% plus. My comments are related to the deflated value of used Vapor speakers being attributed to persistent customer issues related to delayed delivery schedules and non-communication with customers once money is sent. A price increase isn't going to attract new customers, to build confidence back up in the brand timely supply is going to be the key, I would offer new customers an incentive such as escrow to allay any concerns related to delivery performance.
It's also the same shill's that jump in when anyone posts less than positive, similar pattern with SP Tech/Aether Audio.
Escrow's are tough and require an agent. Anything else is a lie...
I have no issue with Vapor speakers. I was observing that a great product is far from enough in the current economy. I wish it were. Customer service and attention to detail are the sole ways to do it. I think we are moving with diverging patterns currently. We will have bespoke items on the one side and total online mass market on the other. There will be little to no in between over time. Just as an example, I am seeing it with jeans here in NYC. There are tons of jeans makers. Athletic pants (think yoga pants) have put a huge wedge into the market. Most of the boutique jeans makers here are getting squeezed. However, a few brands offer custom versions of jeans where you go in and they make them for you on site for a princely sum. They seem to be doing fine or growing. Others, not so much. Yoga pants and Amazon et al. has cut too far in to their margin. They are dying. Vapor's model is obviously the bespoke method. Except when you go in to get your fancy jeans, they pour you a glass of something. They let you spin through the bolts of fabric and tell you all about each. It's not something I enjoy (I am fine getting my mass market Levi's), but my wife sure does. For speakers, I think it is the same deal. Bespoke makers I have dealt with have been amazing on customer service. That's what one needs to do in this area. One bad review is all one needs to see to not purchase a product... Long drawn out threads are even worse. Again, this is an observation generally and not directed at Vapor. Their speakers sound great and I could see myself owning some if I had a big enough room and I was picking them up used. Depressed resale value is a consumer opportunity.
Shawn
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Despite all of the verbiage about Vapor, In my opinion , i have not heard better at any price. I have listened to systems in far excess of 6 figures, and have yet to come home and say, i wish had that system.
I bought the art of the speaker , not the theorectical value of a bunch of reviewers ,marketing guru's and audio want-a- be's.
Dealing with artist's can be trying.I have had an artist on the payroll the last 7 months and they don't follow time in a linear fashion as the rest of the world. Ryan, Pete , and ED's genius lies in building the perfect speaker.Call me a fan boy or what ever , but , when i turn on Aron Copeland and hear cymbals with some much air between them ,its incredible. I can't believe i was lucky enough to drive to St Louis 2 years ago and meet Ryan , and have the intelligence to order my Joule's.Please feel free to stop buy, be amazed , and enjoy them.I am in west central florida !
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have the intelligence to order my Joule's.Please feel free to stop buy, be amazed , and enjoy them.I am in west central florida !
Is there any chance you are moving to New York anytime soon ???
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I mean, if I were a potential Vehement customer I'd look up Vapor and then probably order a Vapor speaker instead... $16k for the Vehement Brezza vs $14k for Vapor Derecho? I'll take the latter!
If you want to wait, you can order Derecho instead. The Vehement model shown above has tapered transmission line bass (which Derecho does not), and uses the custom midrange intended for Derecho. The two are nearly identical in performance. The Vehement Brezza Forte actually has one of the smoothest final system responses we've ever measured. They are a lot of speaker for the money, and they won't have the wait time you'd experience with ordering something like Derecho.
Derecho is probably going to be redesigned soon too, because of the Vehement model. Ryan and I talked about upgrading the woofers to the wonderful Audio Technology Flexunits (Joule, Perfect Storm) and the mids to either ATs or Accuton, to have Derecho follow in the footsteps of the other models with a "black" and "white" version. When that happens, you'll see the price hit at least $20K.
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The Vehement Brezza Forte actually has one of the smoothest final system responses we've ever measured.
That's great, can we see those measurements? Polar plots too?
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That's great, can we see those measurements? Polar plots too?
Haven't run polar plots. But because they are LR2 throughout, they're likely very nice. Nimbus black, which also boasts LR2 acoustic crossovers, had the smoothest in-room response that Steve Nugent ever experienced in his many years of doing shows. Better than the likes of TAD which Steve used. Same tweeter, same XO points, just different mid and woofers. The RAAL design offers very smooth off axis response that matches directivity of the midrange very well.
I'll see if I can get the resulting plot. It's on Ryan's computer. On axis, it was +-1dB from 200Hz on up. Below that, room effects dominate.
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If you want to wait, you can order Derecho instead. The Vehement model shown above has tapered transmission line bass (which Derecho does not), and uses the custom midrange intended for Derecho. The two are nearly identical in performance. The Vehement Brezza Forte actually has one of the smoothest final system responses we've ever measured. They are a lot of speaker for the money, and they won't have the wait time you'd experience with ordering something like Derecho.
Derecho is probably going to be redesigned soon too, because of the Vehement model. Ryan and I talked about upgrading the woofers to the wonderful Audio Technology Flexunits (Joule, Perfect Storm) and the mids to either ATs or Accuton, to have Derecho follow in the footsteps of the other models with a "black" and "white" version. When that happens, you'll see the price hit at least $20K.
I'm sure you guys will do fine whatever direction you go. :thumb:
I'd still spend $20k on an upgraded Derecho (or Nimbus) vs the Brezza. The curved stacked-ply construction is nice on the Derecho. I guess it won't matter to you too much if the Vehement line points people to the Vapor line.
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I'm sure you guys will do fine whatever direction you go. :thumb:
I'd still spend $20k on an upgraded Derecho (or Nimbus) vs the Brezza. The curved stacked-ply construction is nice on the Derecho. I guess it won't matter to you too much if the Vehement line points people to the Vapor line.
You're different than many who simply don't want to wait.
And Vehement will also be coming out with a "top shelf" lineup using the same drivers we use in the Vapor line, including a unique baffle mounting for the RAAL tweeters and enclosures that use no wood product at all.
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You're different than many who simply don't want to wait.
It might help if you could honestly answer how long the wait will be.
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It might help if you could honestly answer how long the wait will be.
Yeah, that has proven to be a very significant point with Vapor. IMO customer service is every bit as important as the product.
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Pricing and wait times are one thing, but when you put thousands of dollars into a product that comes to you defective (warping and delaminating) and communicate with the manufacturer over two years and hear unfulfilled promises, it's shameful! I don't care how good the speakers sound, unkept promises, basically taking money and sticking garbage up the customers a__ is just down right terrible, an awful business model. Resolution is simple give the wronged customer priority and fix the defective product. Vapor and the customer can brag about that, Not Vapor noooo, they prefer to ignore you keep your money and continue to take orders. I'm screwed I'll probably end up putting more money in this garbage having a woodworker try to sand out the bulges and get them wrapped or something. God help you if you deal with these guys like I did blind faith...
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It might help if you could honestly answer how long the wait will be.
Agree - https://www.reputationmanagement.com/blog/how-to-stop-the-top-10-customer-complaints-before-they-start/
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Pricing and wait times are one thing, but when you put thousands of dollars into a product that comes to you defective (warping and delaminating) and communicate with the manufacturer over two years and hear unfulfilled promises, it's shameful! I don't care how good the speakers sound, unkept promises, basically taking money and sticking garbage up the customers a__ is just down right terrible, an awful business model. Resolution is simple give the wronged customer priority and fix the defective product. Vapor and the customer can brag about that, Not Vapor noooo, they prefer to ignore you keep your money and continue to take orders. I'm screwed I'll probably end up putting more money in this garbage having a woodworker try to sand out the bulges and get them wrapped or something. God help you if you deal with these guys like I did blind faith...
I am sorry for your frustration and hope Vapor follows through for you. It's funny, your Cirrus to Joule upgrade is what prompted me to purchase the Cirrus 2.0, I thought it was a fantastic upgrade path. Oh well.
I suspect this post will find its way to the Intergalactic Waste Bin so you may want to just file a complaint with the St. Louis BBB. Ryan didn't answer my complaint but at least it's documented in a place where it won't be deleted.
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Agree - https://www.reputationmanagement.com/blog/how-to-stop-the-top-10-customer-complaints-before-they-start/
Spot on, Phil!
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I am sorry for your frustration and hope Vapor follows through for you. It's funny, your Cirrus to Joule upgrade is what prompted me to purchase the Cirrus 2.0, I thought it was a fantastic upgrade path. Oh well.
I suspect this post will find its way to the Intergalactic Waste Bin so you may want to just file a complaint with the St. Louis BBB. Ryan didn't answer my complaint but at least it's documented in a place where it won't be deleted.
Nothing useful will come of you trying to start fights here. So... why do it?
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someone mentioned the pair of Nimbus that were for sale...yeap, those were mine. I dropped the price from $8k to $7k because I had to sell them quickly. I'm moving in a condo next month so I had to sell the Nimbus. Plus, mine were a demo pair so my initial investment wasn't much more than what I ended it up selling them for. Considering the looks and the sound, the Nimbus is a great deal at $14-18k. Not sure if I would say $40k, but they can hold their own against Wilson, Focal, or Vandy's in the $15-20k price range.
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Nothing useful will come of you trying to start fights here. So... why do it?
Sorry John, I'm not looking for a fight. I would like Vapor to step up and address my legitimate concerns. Have they no shame?
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someone mentioned the pair of Nimbus that were for sale...yeap, those were mine. I dropped the price from $8k to $7k because I had to sell them quickly. I'm moving in a condo next month so I had to sell the Nimbus. Plus, mine were a demo pair so my initial investment wasn't much more than what I ended it up selling them for. Considering the looks and the sound, the Nimbus is a great deal at $14-18k. Not sure if I would say $40k, but they can hold their own against Wilson, Focal, or Vandy's in the $15-20k price range.
Would love to hear my new Quatro's vs them in my system, lol. I have a friend who's a manufacture or DAC's who loves one of their speakers. I think it used to go for14k or so. I hope they get their problems worked out as there is always room for newer companies. That's how Vandersteen, Wilson and others started also. When the owner/s of a company stay in constant contact with the customers like Vandersteen does, it give even more credibility to the company. You guys at least have this forum to ask the owners questions and get answers. It's a great start I think and I have no skin in the game.
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Sorry John, I'm not looking for a fight. I would like Vapor to step up and address my legitimate concerns. Have they no shame?
First of all, trying to force a response through "shaming" is quite unlikely to work and often raises questions about the posters motivations. It's been my experience that for every unhappy person re: a product or service, there are many, many more satisfied customers who don't post simply because they are busy enjoying what they purchased.
Secondly, this thread didn't start as a "things I'm unhappy about with Vapor" thread. Hijacking it also is rather unlikely to bring a resolution to concerns.
OK...I'm done now.
Hibuck....
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First of all, trying to force a response through "shaming" is quite unlikely to work and often raises questions about the posters motivations. It's been my experience that for every unhappy person re: a product or service, there are many, many more satisfied customers who don't post simply because they are busy enjoying what they purchased.
Secondly, this thread didn't start as a "things I'm unhappy about with Vapor" thread. Hijacking it also is rather unlikely to bring a resolution to concerns.
OK...I'm done now.
Hibuck....
True enough, nothing in the last 27 months has worked with these guys. Thanks for your contribution.
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I see more and more guys thinking they have something to offer vs. the big guys with guaranteed warranties, and over 30 years of experience. Maybe they do... But better prove that especially at these prices.
Vapor
Volti
Both have the same exact letter count, and both start with a V...both started sometime in the 2008 to 2011 range. However, building 30,000 dollar speakers that doubled and triple in cost over night well...unless you get the Asian guys going for so called "American" built speakers although they all use foreign parts with an American guy putting a finish on them its going to be tuff selling anything in this stratospheric range of cost.
I know I know... .R&D costs! Or in Wilsons case R&D, and now the 1 million per year Marketing cost to stay in all the magazines month after month which makes a 5000.00 speaker worth 25,000 :-)
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:duh: :duh: :duh:
Vapor was under charging which is why they've have a bumpy road. They didn't increase prices because they felt like making more money. It's necessary. I'm not saying Vapor has never done no wrong, but misunderstanding business drives me crazy. Seriously has Ryan ever told you how many hours goes into these speakers? I think your perception may change some if you understood that.
The simple answer is, don't like or have the funds? Build your own. Don't know how? Figure it out; all the manufacturers did. The attitude of companies preying on small consumers who can't afford their stuff is stupid, oh so stupid... DIY or shed the jellies.
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Seriously has Ryan ever told you how many hours goes into these speakers?
I recall a post that stated 100 man-hours for a Cirrus and about twice that for a Joule, I'm sure Pete can correct me if I got that wrong. That's a ton of labor when they were charging $5k for the Cirrus and $12k or so for the Joule, so I totally agree they were undercharging to build the business. They probably should have raised the prices when the sales backlog started to grow, although that's a tough call when you're in the middle of it.
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I forget how many hours Ryan spends on the finish AFTER it returns from paint/clear, but it was more than a day if memory serves. I'd say that labor estimate falls considerably short of reality.
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I forget how many hours Ryan spends on the finish AFTER it returns from paint/clear, but it was more than a day if memory serves. I'd say that labor estimate falls considerably short of reality.
Could be, which adds to the point I guess. I took a quick look for the 100 hour Cirrus estimate but couldn't find it, although Ryan did post that he had 300+ hours into the PS build, so that probably scales back to the 100 hour Cirrus and 200 hour Joule. Either way, a lot of labor...
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Could be, which adds to the point I guess. I took a quick look for the 100 hour Cirrus estimate but couldn't find it, although Ryan did post that he had 300+ hours into the PS build, so that probably scales back to the 100 hour Cirrus and 200 hour Joule. Either way, a lot of labor...
There's an old interview online - http://www.hifizine.com/2013/03/interview-with-ryan-scott-vapor-audio/
"The production process consists of stacking, gluing and clamping, sanding, fixing problems, sanding some more, finding more problems to fix, sanding more, and then sanding some more for good measure! A conservative estimate is 100 hours in a pair of Cirrus."
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There's an old interview online - http://www.hifizine.com/2013/03/interview-with-ryan-scott-vapor-audio/
"The production process consists of stacking, gluing and clamping, sanding, fixing problems, sanding some more, finding more problems to fix, sanding more, and then sanding some more for good measure! A conservative estimate is 100 hours in a pair of Cirrus."
Thanks Phil!
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I'm not picking a fight don't care about the thread just telling my story as a warning, I have been faithful to Vapor convincing many people to buy from them. I hooked him up with Mike at Verastarr, spoke to Doug Schroeder of Dagogo on the phone for over an hour endorsing Vapor and assisting in his addendum to the Joule review, communicated in private with Dragon Vibe trying to abate his frustration, and going to lunch with Ryan and Mike of Verastarr in Atlanta after the passing of his wife, so I am not an arbitrary poster. I am very disheartened at the way I have been treated and chose to post after reading all the new product they are pushing out, while ignoring those they have wronged.
I am exhausted fighting with this company, I refused early to use the blogs to voiice my dissatisfaction and will stop here, hopefully I have helped someone else from being taken advantage of...
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I'm not picking a fight don't care about the thread just telling my story as a warning, I have been faithful to Vapor convincing many people to buy from them. I hooked him up with Mike at Verastarr, spoke to Doug Schroeder of Dagogo on the phone for over an hour endorsing Vapor and assisting in his addendum to the Joule review, communicated in private with Dragon Vibe trying to abate his frustration, and going to lunch with Ryan and Mike of Verastarr in Atlanta after the passing of his wife, so I am not an arbitrary poster. I am very disheartened at the way I have been treated and chose to post after reading all the new product they are pushing out, while ignoring those they have wronged.
I am exhausted fighting with this company, I refused early to use the blogs to voiice my dissatisfaction and will stop here, hopefully I have helped someone else from being taken advantage of...
Thanks for sharing your story. I know what it feels like to be ignored by Vapor, what kind of a company does that to its customers? There is no acceptable excuse. Good luck to you and I encourage you to file a complaint with the proper agencies.
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There are multiple items Vapor needs to clear up to make a run of this. First and foremost is that they need to make good to all of those that have been waiting for years before they start working on new orders. I endured a 40 month wait to receive a satisfactory pair of speakers. 40 months!!! I had serious doubts for a while that I would ever see them and that I would be out all of the money for my speakers. I counted 5 of the 10 items in the list that Phil posted that were problems during my build. That is a recipe for failure. If they believe otherwise, it will be a short run during this reboot. Building great looking and sounding speakers, which they do, is not enough. Now, perspective owners are being asked to shell out a lot more with no guarantee that any of the issues have been resolved. It is a deep hole to dig out of. Imagine having 10k or more tied up in a pair of speakers and not having them for a year or two or three or more. Then, when you try to find out what is going on with your investment, you can't get in touch with the company. I am not trying to stir things up either, but perspective buyers need to be aware of all sides of the story before investing that much money. Tread carefully.
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There are multiple items Vapor needs to clear up to make a run of this. First and foremost is that they need to make good to all of those that have been waiting for years before they start working on new orders. I endured a 40 month wait to receive a satisfactory pair of speakers. 40 months!!! I had serious doubts for a while that I would ever see them and that I would be out all of the money for my speakers. I counted 5 of the 10 items in the list that Phil posted that were problems during my build. That is a recipe for failure. If they believe otherwise, it will be a short run during this reboot. Building great looking and sounding speakers, which they do, is not enough. Now, perspective owners are being asked to shell out a lot more with no guarantee that any of the issues have been resolved. It is a deep hole to dig out of. Imagine having 10k or more tied up in a pair of speakers and not having them for a year or two or three or more. Then, when you try to find out what is going on with your investment, you can't get in touch with the company. I am not trying to stir things up either, but perspective buyers need to be aware of all sides of the story before investing that much money. Tread carefully.
Ryan hasn't taken a new order since before the death of his wife. He's not going to until every build in the queue is completed, and he's doing it all by himself.
He's still working with lawyers to resolve the wrongful death of his wife who was the major breadwinner for the couple. Who knows when that will be over with. He didn't receive a death certificate from the state of Ohio for almost a full year. How would you guys deal with that kind of nightmare?
I know the prospective owners are frustrated and they absolutely have a reason to be. They put money down for speakers and expect delivery. But until the lawsuits are over, Ryan simply doesn't have the means to hire help to make things go quicker, and I simply am not around enough to make much difference. I help when I can on the occasional weekend when I'm not on the road, and I do it gratis because I love to make speakers and I like my friend.
Patience is the only thing I can suggest for everyone involved. Nothing else is going to get the product in your hands. And when the dust finally settles and things start looking up for a man who lost his best friend and life partner, I've little doubt that the future will be a very different picture than it has been for the past couple years.
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Pete, that information is long overdue. I can't say how glad I am that it's finally been posted.
I've never felt it was my place to say that. So thank you for putting it out there.
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Pete (and Ryan), thank you for the update, I hope it will put the kvetching to an end. As you point out, some people have a genuine reason to be upset and hopefully they will be made whole. I hope all who would want a set (or as I understand, some have ordered more than just a pair) get to enjoy these wonderful works of art. I am also very glad to see that you are also working with an actual builder/reseller of speakers with the Vehement line of speakers. the past is past, hopefully it can be put to rest and I hope that Vapor can soon resume the place it was assuming as one of the great builders of beautiful sounding and looking speaking works of art.
If anyone in the SF Bay area would like to hear what some of these speakers sound like, send me a PM.
Phil
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If anyone in the SF Bay area would like to hear what some of these speakers sound like, send me a PM.
Phil, that's a great offer and if I could take you up on it, I would. Buying direct certainly requires a leap of faith. Even though some manufacturers have trial periods, that can involve costly shipping on the buyers part if he doesn't want to make the purchase. So what you are doing is truly a huge favor for both the vendor and the potential buyer. :thumb:
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Ryan hasn't taken a new order since before the death of his wife. He's not going to until every build in the queue is completed, and he's doing it all by himself.
He's still working with lawyers to resolve the wrongful death of his wife who was the major breadwinner for the couple. Who knows when that will be over with. He didn't receive a death certificate from the state of Ohio for almost a full year. How would you guys deal with that kind of nightmare?
I know the prospective owners are frustrated and they absolutely have a reason to be. They put money down for speakers and expect delivery. But until the lawsuits are over, Ryan simply doesn't have the means to hire help to make things go quicker, and I simply am not around enough to make much difference. I help when I can on the occasional weekend when I'm not on the road, and I do it gratis because I love to make speakers and I like my friend.
Patience is the only thing I can suggest for everyone involved. Nothing else is going to get the product in your hands. And when the dust finally settles and things start looking up for a man who lost his best friend and life partner, I've little doubt that the future will be a very different picture than it has been for the past couple years.
Well Pete, thanks for the post but none of that information is news and none of it addresses my concerns. Let’s ignore my issue with Ryan’s lack of communication as water under the bridge.
It’s clear Ryan has been making progress lately:
Nov 2016 - Cris’s Arcus (40 month wait)
Feb 2017 – James’s Joule (about 3 year wait)
Jun 2017 – Steve’s Nimbus (about 4 year wait)
I obviously don’t have full visibility into the delivery queue, but I figure that leaves 5 or 6 pairs of speakers in the “new” queue. I totally understand Ryan is having throughput issues working through his personal tragedy in parallel with trying to complete the remaining builds. The question I have is does Ryan have a detailed project plan and supporting cash flow plan to finish these speakers up? If not, does he need help with either?
Todd
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If anyone in the SF Bay area would like to hear what some of these speakers sound like, send me a PM.
Phil
Same offer as Phil's if you're in the Richmond, VA area. Ryan delivered my Joules last February.
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To me it seems like they would best be served by having a lot of carcases ready to go. A dealer or direct (you can do direct for states without dealers, and any states with dealers can not do direct, you have to maintain MSRP while direct) just chooses a limited set number of veneer's and colors. Each speaker can have say two classes the normal and SE, where the SE receives upgraded crossovers. (yes only two options). They all have the best standard binding posts that work the best for the speaker/vapor/customer. Inquires for custom veneers can be made at a painstaking extra charge, and I do mean like $3000 probably min. Even though the veneer may only cost $100 more, the problem is the value of the time taken for that would have been spent making a lot more money doing something else. This all would equal much faster delivery times, ideally never exceeding 3 months. They need the prices to hire skilled guys so that all stages of production can be happening at the same time, and an office person is a must to keep it all organized. Ryan will obviously continue R&D, HR manager, quality control, training, etc.
I echoed this exact thing many times on audiogon years ago when Vapor was getting bashed by long delays and inferior fit and finish ,but obviously it fell on deaf ears.....Have 2 or 3 basic veneer finishes,cabinets ready to go..offer 2 or 3 upgrade paths...and if a customer insist on the custom personal approach speakers,direst that customer to the custom line with all details of waits etc ..Im actually in the market for new speakers and was thinking Id try Vapor,was blown over with their price increase and dropped that idea rather quickly.They have no resale value compared to the more notable makers,which is a big big deal for me as I change the music flavor every couple years ..Long waits,issues on finishes,increase prices (that are basically double),receipt for disaster
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I seem to remember a similar pattern with SP Technologies/Aether Audio—long waits and a shocking price increase just before the crunch, both Vapor and Aether having merit as speaker designs but seeming to need better business management. I'm not saying there will be a crunch at Vapor, by the way, but it looks a little dicey.
I suppose there's nothing to the name similarity—Vapor...Aether.
Unfortunately, what is behind both Vapor and SP Tech's too-low initial pricing is the desire by a couple of decent people to put the best possible spealer on the market at a price the average person can afford, but was too low to sustain forward momentum and growth.
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Unfortunately, what is behind both Vapor and SP Tech's too-low initial pricing ... too low to sustain forward momentum and growth.
Then what is the formula for determining gross margin? :scratch:
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Then what is the formula for determining gross margin? :scratch:
If I knew that my own speaker designing/building enterprise might have succeeded way back in the 70's when I tried to do the same. My speakers were very good, but there wasn't enough profit in the business plan to survive, let alone prosper and grow. I worked long hours, but when I sat down and worked out how much I was making, it looked like $0.75 per hour, if I was being honest with myself and counting all expenses and all my time. This was ridiculous, even in 1976! When I took a job in a hospital just to survive I literally had holes in the soles of my shoes and needed dental work badly! Working for a salary felt like a vacation!
What I needed was a business manager to say "You can't do that and survive, buddy. Raise your prices or find another enterprise". I wasn't big enough (or rich enough) to afford one—at least that was my thinking—again, fallacious.
(edited for spelling)
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Thanks for your honesty.
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If I knew that my own speaker designing/building enterpise might have succeeded way back in the 70's when I tried to do the same. My speakers were very good, but there wasn't enough profit in the business plan to survive, let alone prosper and grow. I worked long hours, but when I sat down and worked out how much I was making, it looked like $0.75 per hour, if I was being honest with myself and counting all expenses and all my time. This was ridiculous, even in 1976! When I took a job in a hospital just to survive I literally had holes in the soles of my shoes and needed dental work badly! Working for a salary felt like a vacation!
What I needed was a business manager to say "You can't do that and survive, buddy. Raise your prices or find another enterpise". I wasn't big enough (or rich enough) to afford one—at least that was my thinking—again, falacious.
Great story - here's some important things for a small business:
http://articles.bplans.com/10-things-every-small-business-in-america-needs-to-do/
There are many talented and brillant people I've met that just don't have the skills to manage a business. It's no easy task when one is in the middle of dealing with everything.
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IMO... the speaker is the easy part. It's not that difficult or complicated. OTOH, industrial design, branding, marketing, distribution, etc. considerations are much more difficult for me. I've had a speaker design ready to go for over a year, it's the other stuff that's complicating things.
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Great story - here's some important things for a small business:
http://articles.bplans.com/10-things-every-small-business-in-america-needs-to-do/
In addition to those 10 things, there is the element of luck. Around here, 9 of 10 new ventures fail within the first year because the business never takes off.
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Then what is the formula for determining gross margin? :scratch:
Having reflected on this, there doesn't seem to be a one size fits all answer. From a retail perspective, I've seen gross margin range anywhere from 10% to over 80% depending on the commodity.
A manufacturer of high tech also has to consider the cost of R&D and then factor that in against the number of units he can hopefully sell. If objective falls short, it can be catastrophic.
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Assuming you got enough capital to get you through the initial launching step, customer service is Job No. 1.
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Assuming you got enough capital to get you through the initial launching step, customer service is Job No. 1.
+1
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I'm not looking to stir up a hornets' nest, but I've often wondered why some of these start ups don't seek out investors - especially investors who are like-minded audiophiles. $50k to $100k could make the difference between just scraping by and having that cushion to get over that dry spell that must happen periodically. [From reading this thread, I understand Ryan may have been supported by his late wife.]
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Well, investors don't give money for free so there's risk with it too... sometimes you get tied to them as they own some of the company as well.
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Um....this is precisely what investing is. An investor expects a return and gets a piece of the company as collateral. An investor may - depending on contract language - offer business advice, advertising, help with sales, accounting, etc. The start up benefits first by receiving a much needed cash infusion, and secondarily benefits from any business acumen that the investor may bring to the table.
It is a legal relationship. The investor wants the start up to succeed. Certainly, it is not gift money. :)
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Assuming you got enough capital to get you through the initial launching step, customer service is Job No. 1.
There is no customer service at Vapor!!!
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Stuart, have you ever worked with me? Do you have a horse in this Vapor-bash? I've rebuilt a customers speaker order because he didn't like the paint job. (I have nothing to do with the painting, btw.) I appreciate the serious talk and advice given, but I personally take that comment to heart. I don't have anything to do with Ryans builds, and he did final fit and finish with all cabs, but I build the Aurora and Nimbus. I understand that people have had to wait an inexorably long time for orders, as has been pointed out time and time again. I hope that we (Vapor) can get through this. We as a group have built some outstanding speakers; I'm very proud of what we've done together. I plan on continuing to build. I have a set of Auroras on my bench right now, plus a set of Nimbus waiting for baffles, not to mention a brand new prototype. Maybe they'll be my personal sets. Who knows? All I can do is try. I know that Ryan is working; things are getting finished. Thats all we can do. As long as people show interest in what I build, I will build. Hell, I'll still build anyway. Who am I kidding?
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I'm not looking to stir up a hornets' nest, but I've often wondered why some of these start ups don't seek out investors -
Far too often, people won't invest until something gets going, is starting to bring in money and reputation, then the investors - because they have the cash - want 51+% percent of the company, i.e. control.
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Stuart, have you ever worked with me? Do you have a horse in this Vapor-bash? I've rebuilt a customers speaker order because he didn't like the paint job. (I have nothing to do with the painting, btw.) I appreciate the serious talk and advice given, but I personally take that comment to heart. I don't have anything to do with Ryans builds, and he did final fit and finish with all cabs, but I build the Aurora and Nimbus. I understand that people have had to wait an inexorably long time for orders, as has been pointed out time and time again. I hope that we (Vapor) can get through this. We as a group have built some outstanding speakers; I'm very proud of what we've done together. I plan on continuing to build. I have a set of Auroras on my bench right now, plus a set of Nimbus waiting for baffles, not to mention a brand new prototype. Maybe they'll be my personal sets. Who knows? All I can do is try. I know that Ryan is working; things are getting finished. Thats all we can do. As long as people show interest in what I build, I will build. Hell, I'll still build anyway. Who am I kidding?
Ed is a standup guy. He has absolutely nothing to do with my Cirrus 2.0 build, yet when Ryan completely ignored my "Fair Warning" emails before I canceled in Sep 2016, Ed stepped in and offered to build a Nimbus or Aurora for me for his parts costs. My build is not his problem, but he offered to do what he could. I have a huge amount of respect for Ed and wish him well.
Todd
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Ed is a standup guy. He has absolutely nothing to do with my Cirrus 2.0 build, yet when Ryan completely ignored my "Fair Warning" emails before I canceled in Sep 2016, Ed stepped in and offered to build a Nimbus or Aurora for me for his parts costs. My build is not his problem, but he offered to do what he could. I have a huge amount of respect for Ed and wish him well.
Todd
Excellent.
Way to go Ed.
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I am one of the ones waiting in the queue, for a pair of Joule Blacks. I am patiently waiting because I fully expect eventually to receive fantastic speakers at a great price. I sympathize with Ryan's situation with the loss of his wife, in terms of emotional connection, help running the household and much of the family's cash flow. I can see how the Vehement deal can leverage Ryan's expertise to produce much-needed cash flow, without requiring a lot of his time. I think it is a great move and is likely the reason why he has been able to get the custom products moving out the door again.
Ryan has been in touch with all of us who are waiting for our custom speakers and has facilitated communication among us, which is a very welcome move.
I am optimistic!
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Great to hear. What finish did you select for your Joule Blacks?
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On the bright side, even threads like this cause random people like myself--who've never before heard of the brand--to become interested in a product which has received so many accolades...and to want to hear them, even if we might have to mortgage the house to afford them.
What's that they say about publicity? So long as they spell your name right....
PS: Thread needs moar pics
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What BajaEd said +1, interested in which finish and veneer you chose, also why did you go for the Blacks over the Whites.
Keep us informed as to how things proceed, and post pictures.
Archguy, my avatar is a picture Ryan took of my speakers when they were still in his shop.
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Ryan has been in touch with all of us who are waiting for our custom speakers and has facilitated communication among us, which is a very welcome move.
That's not true as documented twice earlier in this thread.