Dave's Cables Interconnect Cable Tour (New Tour With Speaker Cables: Page 10)

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genjamon


If you are getting good results with your NCores then that is excellent and as I said, they have a lot of potential in the right system. I have heard NCore amps sound AMAZING. But if you feel your system is lean and a little edgy in the highs, I can almost guarantee it's the NCores. I heard the Serenity 7s with the Dodd amps at RMAF and couldn't say I noticed anything along the lines you describe, but with the driver compliment in those speakers I am not surprised they can lean that way...

I heard NC400's back to back with Atsah's on my speakers, which I would say also have to be tamed a bit.  In comparison to the Atsah's, the NC400's had some edge in the highs and grain in the mids I hadn't heard before hearing the Atsah's, but once heard, could not be unheard.  Mine were stock, though, and I haven't heard Ric's mods.  But this audition led me to go another direction with amplification entirely.

charmerci

Ah, the addition of the NCores... IME class D amps always throw a bit of uncertainty into the mix as they react very strongly and unpredictably to other gear in the system. One of my friends and customers has been dealing with a system with NCores and Abbeys, went through lots of different cables and gear with very odd results (this is an understatement!). I think NCores have the potential to work wonderfully and they are GREAT amplifiers, but getting synergy right with these amps can be very difficult and the results are not predictable at all. My friend ended up trying an old Pioneer receiver that blew away the NCores in his system.  I think the issue was with the Abbey's crossover network and the fact that Geddes does not "believe in" boutique parts so the crossovers are comprised of less expensive parts including iron core inductors on the lows. The NCores react very strongly to this while the Pioneer receiver does not, and this is how David killed Goliath...  :lol:   Oh also, the source was an Auralic Vega > Bent TapX preamp, so source was pretty much "as good as it gets" for a system under 6 figures.

Personally, I had a tripath amp years ago and noticed the same kinds of issues. It reacted VERY strongly to cabling, way more than my SET amp, and to the point where cabling and other things that should be more "secondary" issues became of primary importance.

If you are getting good results with your NCores then that is excellent and as I said, they have a lot of potential in the right system. I have heard NCore amps sound AMAZING. But if you feel your system is lean and a little edgy in the highs, I can almost guarantee it's the NCores. I heard the Serenity 7s with the Dodd amps at RMAF and couldn't say I noticed anything along the lines you describe, but with the driver compliment in those speakers I am not surprised they can lean that way...

I'm helping Mike in all these comparisons - discussing/agreeing with these conclusions. (I'm not quite sure what he means by leanness in the midrange.  :scratch: Mike, we'll have to discuss this! ) I'm of the belief that the high end edginess is inherent in the Neo3 tweeter - having heard them in another S7 system (tube amps) and on my own monitors.

I do have that particular Pioneer receiver which we can hook it up to his system. I suspect it will not blow us away but one never knows...

In my semi-modest system, the IC's and speaker cable between my amp/pre-amp and monitors certainly made it sound better - highs, lows, depth and soundstage - compared to my $2 monoprice cables which sound fine - for the price. But I'm cheap, so I'll just have to live with it!  :D

DaveC113

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I'm helping Mike in all these comparisons - discussing/agreeing with these conclusions. (I'm not quite sure what he means by leanness in the midrange.  :scratch: Mike, we'll have to discuss this! ) I'm of the belief that the high end edginess is inherent in the Neo3 tweeter - having heard them in another S7 system (tube amps) and on my own monitors.

I do have that particular Pioneer receiver which we can hook it up to his system. I suspect it will not blow us away but one never knows...

In my semi-modest system, the IC's and speaker cable between my amp/pre-amp and monitors certainly made it sound better - highs, lows, depth and soundstage - compared to my $2 monoprice cables which sound fine - for the price. But I'm cheap, so I'll just have to live with it!  :D

You're probably right, I doubt the Serenity 7s will react the same way.

And at least monoprice doesn't sell you a name and a story for 100x the price...  :icon_lol: 




charmerci


And at least monoprice doesn't sell you a name and a story for 100x the price...  :icon_lol:

Because of my system but especially finances, I'm really not in a position to spend that much on cables. I listened to them for a couple of days and I certainly was sad to see them go, Dave.

DaveC113

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Because of my system but especially finances, I'm really not in a position to spend that much on cables. I listened to them for a couple of days and I certainly was sad to see them go, Dave.

DIY! Being cheap is how I got into building cables and amps.  :green:

Try switchcraft RCA plugs and the same wire/construction I use in my D1 cable, it will cost you under $25 and be a pretty good cable. The Neotech wire is $2/ft and the ground wire is $.18 at Apex Jr (I can sell you both for the same price too). For speaker cables you could get some of the same wire from Apex Jr and twist it into a star quad configuration using a drill. It's silver plated copper so just use bare wire with no connectors. I would use 10-16g wire depending on the speaker... For binding posts Pomona 3770 tellurium copper w/ gold plate are <$10 each and better than most. You should be able to cable your system with 2 sets of ICs and a set of SCs for under $100 and I bet it will sound really good!

I will say going through the signal path and upgrading wire, connectors and cable pays off HUGE... the laws of diminishing returns comes up fast in this hobby, so you can do it on a budget and still get impressive results using stuff like Switchcraft or off-brand connectors like Valab, military surplus wire, and of course looking for good deals.

And the satisfaction you get from building things is nice too.  :thumb:


charmerci

Cool, sounds great. I'll look into that.

seikosha

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Time for a review.....

I’ve spent a really enjoyable week listening to Dave’s speaker cables and his D3 interconnects.  They were used primarily with a 4 watt Decware SEP amp playing CD’s running through a Schiit DAC with Omega Super 3xrs single driver speakers.

I think the strengths of my system are transparency, tone, microdynamics and imaging and the weaknesses are the obvious rolling off of the frequency extremes that single drivers produce and ultimate loudness/macrodynamics.

The cables that were substituted were Decware IC’s and Clearday Shotguns and my methodology consisted of quick A/B tests as well as sustained listening with the two different cables.

I first started with the speaker cables.  The improvements I heard were pretty obvious and quick to discern.  Right off the bat, I realized that Dave’s cables took an ever so slight hardness and glare out of vocals that the Cleardays were presenting.  It’s something I’d not noticed before, but in Audio, it happens all the time, you often don’t realize a shortcoming until it’s addressed in a system change.  The nice thing about this change was that even though Dave’s cables took out that edge, I didn’t lose any sense of air or open-ness.  Sometimes that’s a tradeoff that has to be made and in this instance it wasn’t.

Maybe the biggest surprise for me with the speaker cables was the bass.  I have to say, there were more than a few times where I smiled and thought…”I never knew my Omegas could deliver those low frequencies as nice as they are right now”  Not too tight, and not too loose, but rather the bass was able to breathe in a new way.  It was a shortcoming in my system before where I knew there were times when I thought the bass was just a little too tight or congested; it wasn’t rolling out into the room like I suspected it should and I knew there was room for improvement.

Another factor which really caught my ear was the way my system responded to micro changes in frequency.  All of the sudden the variations in tone in a vibrato were more distinct or in a particular passage where a drummer was hitting a cymbal I could hear that every strike wasn’t identical and there were distinct variations in tone as the drumstick was consistently alternating it's stike on two different spots on the cymbal resulting in tiny differences in sound.  It was startling to me to hear this and I did multiple A/B’s with my Cleardays to confirm that I really was hearing this new level of micro detail.  My last example would be sounds way back in the soundstage.  Sure I could hear them before, but now all of the sudden, there was some dimensionality to these notes where previously although they were just as noticeable, they were flat in image and presentation.

After I was comfortable with the sound of Dave’s speaker cables I then began switching out my Decware IC’s for Dave’s D3 interconnects.  These changes were not so easy for me to describe.  Unlike the speaker cables where I instantly heard improvements, I found it very difficult to quantify the changes between the IC's.  Where the speaker cables took out a slight glare, the IC’s tended to just present the upper midrange in a warmer tone.  With the Decware IC’s I felt like there was a little more airiness to the upper midrange whereas Dave’s IC’s had more of a softer glow.  Neither was preferable, both were nice.

That said, for some reason, I always felt like I was on some level enjoying Dave’s cables more than my own IC’s.  For about 12 hours of hardcore IC listening over many days, I tried to convince myself that I was imagining this, but I couldn’t.  Time after time, I’d hear something and think…”oh, Dave’s cable is nailing this passage” and I’d substitute the Decware’s back in but I couldn’t confirm what it was that made Dave's cables make me stop and compare .  However, during the eval period I never had the Decware’s in the system and felt like stopping and comparing like I so often was with Dave's D3s in the chain.

I actually PM’d Dave about it and my theory was that his cables might have essentially been doing everything just a little bit better making it (except for the upper midrange presentation discussed previously) difficult to pinpoint to one thing and nail down specific differences.  I wish I could describe in detail why I responded so positively to the IC’s and although in the end I couldn’t quantify it, I really felt there was something intangible going on that I was reacting to and just didn’t have the time to really nail it down.  Believe me, I didn’t want to like those IC’s.  The last thing any of us wants is to hear something sound better and influence us to spend more money!  My last thought is perhaps it was harder to discern the differences in IC's simply because the Decware's had a competitive advantage being designed by the maker of the amp specifically for his products.

So I just wanted to say thanks to Dave, as I said, I enjoyed the demo quite a bit and will be contacting him about placing an order.

DaveC113

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Thanks for posting your review!

The ICs may be allowing a little more detail to come through, not enough to jump out at you, but enough so it feels more realistic. That's my best guess.  :green:  I'm glad they worked for you, we have almost the same system, I use a DIY EL34 SET and a 10" sealed sub, but we have the same speakers and DAC. The Schiit DACs are good but I would love to pick up the Sony HAP1 and put in my own mu-follower tube output stage...  :icon_twisted:

xsb7244

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Dave,

If you are looking for a better dac consider the Bottlehead dac designed by the great John Swenson.  Ask your question on this dac on Computer Audiophile where John Swenson is and on Bottlehead forum.  Like your cables the Bottlehead Dac tries to be.  A long development time the dac is finished.  $1,550 for the kit via Kickstarter.  Bottlehead fans are excited.

DaveC113

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Thanks xsb, I just heard about the Bottlehead DAC from a customer and it sounds promising! I will definitely look into it.

Meanwhile, I have been experimenting with things a bit...   :icon_twisted:


OzarkTom

How long do we get to enjoy these before we have to ship them to the next audiophile?

DaveC113

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Hi Tom, 1-2 weeks is fine but no hard dates... If you are done with them send me a PM and we can arrange to get them to the next person.

xsb7244

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Dave,

Looking forward to your experiments with power cords.  Keep up the good work.

DaveC113

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Thanks xsb. Trials are going better than expected... this wire works very well for power cords! I am also getting in some of the new Neotech plugs with improved body/housings. The old ones on sale now sound good but the quality of the body is not good enough...  hopefully that will be fixed in the new generation as the price/performance ratio is very good.



Nick B

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Hi Dave,
Am curious, would your power cords be limited to low current applications only? Also, have you considered doing a digital cable yet? It seems like the potential is there for excellent digital as well
Nick

DaveC113

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Hi Nick, I made the power cables in 14 and 11 gauge, the 11 should be good for amps. Works great on mine, but it's a small SET amp... they are being tested. :)

I have had a couple people try the D4s as digital cables, both RCA and XLR versions, and the report back was they sounded better than anything else including some very high end cables. Digital spdif cables transmit an analog waveform to represent digital information so an accurate cable for analog can work well as a digital cable. I need to measure/tweak the cables to meet accepted parameters for digital cables before I would put it out there though, the D4 RCA cable's connectors are 75 ohm already but the cable's characteristic impedance needs to be 75 ohms too...


DaveC113

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Here's an impression of my 20 gauge speaker cables used with Omega single driver speakers:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=124577.msg1333200#msg1333200

Hi all
First a thank you to Dave for providing me with a set of his 20gauge speaker cables. It has been a true pleasure doing business with you. Dave wrote to me that these would need around 200 hours of use before I can fully hear how they sound. Of course since I got them Friday, i am no way near getting so many hours on them, but Dave also wrote that after 15-20 hours I will get a good impression about how they sound. BTW, the box you shipped them in was properly secure.

Going from sort of heavy duty TaraLabs helix prism 6 to these cables it is a kind of unfair comparison, but never the less a comparison that show how important cables are. An other thing is that the wife left really early on a trip to London to give a lecture there so I was able to optimize speaker and component placement, which also makes a difference in sound. I have been playing a hell of a lot of music during the weekend.

Anyway, these light weight, easy to deal with cables makes a really big difference in my system, more than I thought was possible. Listening to Roger Waters Amused to death every little detail is clearly present, so many things happening in the background on that album. Switching to another favorite, Morphine with Yes and there is big difference in the lower bass end, actually killed my growing need to purchase a subwoofer, at least for a little while. Soundstage is improved and instruments sounds more natural. It seems as the amp and speakers have the right tools to the job they are hired to do, if you know what I mean.

Thanks again Dave for all help with the cotton "stockings" which I found to be both a nice way to have cables visible, and as an extra protection, and for being a nice guy with my special needs. I guess I will email you over the summer and order a pair of ICs..

OzarkTom

I want to thank Dave for the opportunity to be on his cable tour and his patience. I took a little too long.

My system consists of the Job 225 amp, IFI Itube used a pre, Zellaton Emotion speakers, and Sony HapZ1ES for the music server. About a couple of months ago,my system really gelled the best I ever have had it. Big soundstage, holographici maging, and very natural and lots of emotion. I thought never ever change it again.
 
Then I get a PM from Dave about his cable tour.  :scratch: Gee,I forgot I had signed up. Since I am most interested in IC's and not speaker cables I hooked the D3's up. The first night I got thin soind, so I figured to just let them burn in overnight.

Second night was thin sounding so now I knew I was in trouble. If the IC's was thin, I only imagined the speaker cables was just more of the same. On the third night I decided to change the D3's around and reverse the flow. Ahh, the thinness disappeared. I was getting razor sharp detail, razor sharp focus, razor sharp imaging.

to be continued..........


genjamon

Interesting, Tom.  What are you comparing them to? 

OzarkTom

One thing I have never liked is too many sharp razors coming at me, I lose the emotion and the magic of the sound when it happens. The sound crosses into tha dark side, or maybe I should say the opposite of the dark side. I put my cable back in and the magic came back. My cable that I was using between the Sony and the Itube was a pair of the Rethm silver IC's that sell for $1400.

Work had me tied up quite a bit, but I finally had time to hook D3's and the speaker cables in. My speaker cables are also silver, costing $800.  :o Whoa, what happened? All the magic plus detail and focus came to life. The naturalness of my system was better than ever, yet I was hearing more information. Some of my hard soundingCD's now sounded smother than ever. Hall ambiance was greater, soundstage was bigger, vocals more alive.

One CD I listen to quite a bit is Daft Punk's Random Access Memories. I was listening to the Game of Love and I noticed a quivering in the electronic vocal I had never heard before. Wow! Pharell Williams can sound a little irritating on his high pitched vocals, but no more. Adele sounded smoother than ever. My French radio station ABC Lounge Radio, sounded bigger and more organic than ever. :thumb:

I thoroughly enjoyed this set-up, I had thought my system could not sound any better. Just to make sure the speaker wires made that big a difference, I first took Dave's speaker cables out and sure enough, the magic had disappeared. I then replaced the D3's and the magic appeared again but the detail was knocked down at the same time. I played Daft Punks The Game of Love, and the quivering electronic vocals all but disappeared. Synergy between Dave's cables for me is perfect. If you have a high resolotion audio system, you need to try these out.

Now here I sit looking at my excess audio gear, trying to figure out what to sell first. I can see the only way for me to go is to buy the D3's and the speaker cables at the same time. I want some.