AudioCircle
Industry Circles => LampizatOr => Topic started by: Shredder on 19 Aug 2017, 03:44 pm
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Morning. I use a Cary SLP-05 active pre with my Atlantic DAC and have way too much gain. To address that issue, I have been using Endler passive attenuators between the pre and my power amp (Modwright KWA 1050SE). However, while the attenuators solve the gain issue and reduce the snr, they also impair the dynamics.
Lampi can reduce the gain by reducing the output from 3v to 2v. I know that Lampi has concluded that 3v sounds best and am worried about making this change. Has anyone tried this? Will it adversely effect SQ? Any idea how much the gain is reduced with the change in voltage output?
I know that some people use a passive pre with their Lampis. I clearly do not need the gain of an active, but I love the sound of the Cary. Anyone know of a passive that has a tubey/euphonic sound? From reviews I have read, it sounds like those are not traits of the passive.
Any input will be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
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Can you post the amount of gain your pre and amp provide, and what sensitivity your speakers are?
I'd guess you might want to look for a pre with a zero-gain tube buffer.
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MW has 26 db gain, Cary manual says 8db gain in balanced, Stereophile review measured 16db.
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Speakers are Aerial Model 9s, 90 db.
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Too much gain has been a problem with Lampizator since the Gen 4 and the reason I do not own one today. I tried the "resistor fix" Lampi suggested and it did little to fix the gain. The best they could offer was to add their preamp to the dac. I'll leave it at that......
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Hmmm, anyone have a different experience or additional ideas?
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A pre w/o gain should do it. The difference between 2 and 3 V from the source isn't that much, around 3dB.
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A passive may be the way to go. Any ideas on a passive that equals the Cary?
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A passive may be the way to go. Any ideas on a passive that equals the Cary?
Tortuga LDR or Bent TAP-X autoformers seem to be the best way to go and will definitely have a much nice attenuator vs the Cary, but you might want an active pre with no gain... I'm really not sure what to suggest there. Tortuga does have a tube buffer but not in the same chassis as the LDR if I remember right, so that's an option but I hate adding chassis for no great reason.
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You should call Frank Van Alstine and see if he'll whip you up one of these:
I could build a passive preamplifier (volume control in box) with four sets of inputs, one set of outputs, and a precision 100K ohm stepped volume control for $200.
It could use the same basic chassis as we have done for the HumDinger, just different holes for jacks and controls.
It would not sound good though, not expensive enough. :(
Frank Van Alstine
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My Bryston BP-26 to Bryston 4B-SST² has the same problem with CD/DAC sources.
The real problem is the fact the CD standard is 'pro' standard, not 'consumer' standard.
Consumer output standard is 1/4 to 1/2 volt.
Pro is 2 volts up.
So any preamp design from old school consumer era standards will have too much gain with a damn CD pro standard.
Plus the fact many CD/DAC have even MORE than 2 volts out. Some as much as 4 volts
So this is an indutry issue IMO.
I think the CD standard really went wit hthe higher voltage to be louder than LP or cassette on purpose.
(IE louder sounds better to the average schmuck)
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Shredder,
Have you heard any passive preamps with 6SN7 tubes? I don't consider them to be tuby or euphonic sounding. They are clear sounding with a wide and deep soundstage. I'm biased because I own such a preamp, so YMMV.
My Model has left and right gain dials to deal with too much gain.
I do not know how it compares to the Cary.
http://www.dsachsconsulting.com/custom%20line%20stage.html
There's quite a long thread in the tube circle that discusses Don Sachs products.
Michael
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All interesting ideas. I had heard of the tortuga, but missed the tube buffer.
I have asked Cary if they can eliminate the gain. That would be the perfect solution as I love the Cary per.
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This is a high quality passive pre https://ciaudio.com/product/plc%E2%80%A21-mkii-remote-passive-line-controller/ (https://ciaudio.com/product/plc%E2%80%A21-mkii-remote-passive-line-controller/). Single-ended only.
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The Cary also has gain dials but they also adversely effect dynamics.
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I'm using a Tortuga LDRxB-v2 with a Lampizator Golden Gate DAC. The LDRxB has three sets of balanced inputs and one set of single ended inputs. Outputs are two sets of balanced and one set of single ended. I'm driving a biamped system with a tube amp on top and a pair of Spectron monoblocks on the bass. I use a second Tortuga, the LDR1B to attenuate the feed to the bass amps to match the level of the midrange/treble amps.
I've not heard the Tortuga tube buffer, but unless you're using power amps that have extremely low input impedance, I don't see a need for it, but then again I've not heard the buffer. I've compared the LDRxB and LDR1B with several five figure preamps and it easily outperformed all of them.
The Tortugas don't sound like any passive that I've tried. They have all the dynamics you'd want. They're the only passive controller that I've heard that has deep, powerful, and articulated bass that I only previously found in active devices. The soundstage is very wide and deep. Finally, instruments have a very realistic palpability that, when mated with a top notch power amp will amaze you. My Tortuga also has several features that I would not now want to be without-- adjustable input impedance and absolute phase inversion control, both from the remote.
I would recommend that you spring for the wiring upgrade. Have I left out anything?
Best,
Robert
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By the way, my Lampizator Golden Gate DAC is set for 5V output. I considered asking Lukas to set it to a higher level. He said that he could set it to any output reference level that I wanted, but that he thought it sounded best set to 5V. I decided to go with his suggestion and am very happy with my system's performance using the Golden Gate / Tortuga combination.
I've dialed in the input impedance of the Tortuga to five settings between 79 and 89 kohms per phase. The Tortuga's input impedance can be set to any value from 1k to 99k in the single ended units and that range for each phase in the balanced. You can save any five settings. I switch between 79, 82, 85, 87, 89 kohms. Those may seem so close as to sound the same, but there are subtle differences in the sound betwen them. Different recordings sound best with different impedance values.
Robert
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With the 30 day home trial, sounds like I should give the Tortuga a shot. No risk.
BTW, how long does it take to break it in?
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Can you use the Endlers before the Cary?
Attenuation before the active pre works better for me.
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My Tortuga took a day to sound halfway decent. A week to sound like it was approaching a plateau. I've had mine for a couple of years now, using only input #1. When I first installed the unit, I tried the different inputs and they sounded the same, so I settled on input #1 and never changed it.
I was switching some cables around recently and accidentally plugged into input #2. It didn't sound close to #1 now. So, the unit will continue to improve over the long term with use. I didn't notice the gradual improvement until switching to an input that had little to no break-in.
For a trial, I would give it at least a week or two with 24/7 signal (you can turn off your power amp when not listening). Dynamic music with lots of very sharp transients will help with break-in.
Are you looking for a balanced or single ended unit?
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I am interested in balanced. Thanks for the info.
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O have not tried the attenuators before the pre. I will give that a shot.
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Check out the Schiit Freya too. Passive, jfet buffer or tube gain.
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Opnly Bafld- I just tried the attenuators before the pre and voila, dynamics have returned. More punch, definitely more impactful bass. I played some really dynamic songs that i know well (Paranoid Android by Radiohead, Boogie Woogie Waltz by Weather Report, etc). Definite improvement and just as importantly retained the reduction in noise floor attained with the Endlers. This is not just wishful thinking as the sweet spot for attenuation changed from 16db reduction to 12db. The placement change is definitely having an effect.
No idea why this makes a difference but I will take it.
BTW, I also tried reducing gain with the Cary's Input Level dials, but they also hampered sq.
In the long-term, I am considering high efficiency speakers (Daedalus, which are a great match with the MW). That will likely necessitate a passive (or 0db gain pre). Good to know that there are tried and true options. Given the 30 day trial, i may try the Tortuga sooner than later.
Thanks for the help.
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More information. Cary told me that the Atlantic's 3v gain is too much for the pre in balanced mode, which is only built to handle a smidge over 2v. Sending it 3v leads to overloading/distortion. That is, of course, the issue I have been trying to resolve with the attenuators. I also assume that issue is why adding the attenuators before the pre was superior to adding them at power.
So, reducing the Lampi to 2v output will make it a better match with the Cary pre. Sounds like a couple of you have tried that. I understand that this approach won't reduce the gain that much. I am wondering, however, whether it will degrade sq? Please let me know.
thanks for all the help.
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That seems like an awfully low threshold for a preamp to overload. Why add more attenuators, cables, connections in line with the existing preamp's attenuators just to pamper a preamp that already contains switches and/or potentiometers?
I don't have experience with the Lampi Atlantic, but my Golden Gate has a similar output level, actually higher at 5v. I auditioned a Golden Gate with the built-in attenuator and source switching. At attenuation down to about -10 dB they were very close, but at more attenuation, the Tortuga was superior. The Tortuga doesn't lose dynamics or low level detail with increasing attenuation. Channel separation is superb, better than any active preamp in my experience, and the bass remains as powerful and articulated as at full volume.
The key to the Tortuga is that there are no switches or potentiometers (or capacitors for that matter) in the signal path. Even the input source switching is done by LDRs. Plus, you get the benefit of input impedance control from the remote and in the LDRxB, the opportunity to have absolute phase/polarity control with one click from the remote. The computer controlled attenuation settings can be re-calibrated at any time (again from the remote), so any long term drift of the LDR's attenuation is a non-issue. I usually recalibrate mine every few months or so, but then I tend to be obsessive about my system.
Seems to me to be time to move on.
Best,
Robert
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Yes, that's a pretty low threshold for a preamp. For example, here are the specs for my preamp:
Maximum Input Signal
High Level:
5V Unbalanced
10V Balanced
Voltage Gain
High Level Input to Main Output: 15dB
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Hmmmm, very sad as I love the Cary. I always gravitate toward tubes and am somewhat hesitant to go a different route. Perhaps the tubed Lampi and warmish Modwright suffice. And, if this really is a mismatch, I assume I am losing much of the benefit of the Cary.
kernel bob-do you use the external Tortuga power supply? Given the design, it is not clear why that would be of benefit.
Thanks.
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And,any idea how Tortuga compares to Music Girst baby reference which also gets great reviews?
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kernel bob-do you use the external Tortuga power supply? Given the design, it is not clear why that would be of benefit.
I use an Optima marine battery as a power source. It's simple to set up, you basically just need the correct plug for the Tortuga and connectors on the other end for the battery terminals. I keep the smallest trickle charger I could find permanently connected to the battery. I've never noticed when the charger is active or not. On the Tortuga LDRxB-V2 (the one I have) using battery power took the sound to significantly higher level. Morten has indicated that the V25 boards can use battery power, but that it shouldn't make as much (if any) of a difference. When I get my V2 upgraded, I'll stick with the battery supply if nothing else to save on the cost of another power cord. Give Morten a call and he can give you more details.
Robert
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Hmmmm, very sad as I love the Cary. I always gravitate toward tubes and am somewhat hesitant to go a different route. Perhaps the tubed Lampi and warmish Modwright suffice. And, if this really is a mismatch, I assume I am losing much of the benefit of the Cary.
I often hear folks talk about adding a tubed component into their system to tilt the sound this way or that (e.g. adding "sweetness"). I think this is misguided. The job of any component is to pass the signal with as little alteration as possible, not to flavor the sound like adding an herb to a soup.
I switched from a tube preamp (an Audio Research REF3 at the time) to the Tortuga LDRxB-V2. The Tortuga surpassed the REF3 in every way. The sound stage is wider (much better channel separation) and deeper. Bass is more dynamic, tighter, more extended into the lower frequencies, and has with more articulation. High frequencies are cleaner and with more air. Most importantly, musical instruments and voices are presented as separate entities. The signatures of different pianos, violins, even different recording venues are more obvious thanks to both great macro and micro dynamics. With the Tortuga, you aren't losing the qualities that you value in a good tubed unit.
The problem with the Tortuga (and I've discussed this with Morten) is that people assume a unit will have a certain value-for-the-money based on the price point and that their expectations are that of a modestly priced preamp. My experience is that the Tortuga performs far above its price and outperforms much more costly preamp/controllers.
By the way. I also value what tubes can do. That's why I'm using the Lampizator Golden Gate DAC and have a pair of Lampizator 211 Balanced monoblocks on order. I currently use modified Kronzilla monoblocks (each running a quad of 300BXLS tubes) on the mid/treble and a pair of Spectron monoblocks on the bass. Regarding the Golden Gate, I'm not using it to add a "tube sound" to the system, but for the realism of the music.
P.S. The Golden Gate is even better and neutral when I added a set of tube dampers to it from Herbies Audio Lab. You might want to try them on your Lampizator DAC.
Robert
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I'm not sure if this was explicitly mentioned, but LDR's are not solid state. They are just resistors whose impedance changes depending on the intensity of light shining on them, hence Light Dependent Resistors. The LDR unit is a sealed unit that contains a resistor and an LED. The signal path consists of one LDR in series and one LDR shunt to ground. Balanced units have this arrangement for each phase of the signal. For the LDR1B, that's it. For the LDRxB, there's an additional LDR in series of each input. So, there are no active devices in the signal path, no transistors, no tubes, no opamps and of course no potentiometers or switches.
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I really appreciate the information. Sounds like I need to give this option a try. As you suggest, I am finding it a bit hard to imagine a pre at this price point outperforming the much much more expensive Cary. I guess i need to get over that.
That is quite the system you are putting together. Which Von Schweikert's do you have? One of the two or three best systems I have ever heard was VS' second from top of the line with VAC electronics.
Take care.
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From looking at the Tortuga website, it looks like I should wait until V3 comes out to demo one. Any idea when that might be?
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Shredder,
I don't know when V3 is coming out or what the features and pricing will be. Give Morten Sissner at Tortuga a call, he's a great guy to work with. I'm probably going to get my LDRxB-V2 upgraded to V2.5 at some point, but I also want to see what's going to be in the V3 package. If you do try the Tortuga, play with various input impedance settings for your Lampi. Since you're looking at a balanced system, ask Morten about the absolute phase inversion option. Lastly, you want the hookup wire upgrade.
Regarding my speakers, I have the VR100XS system with towers in the front and XS15 subwoofers in the rear. Mine are finished in piano black as were the ones you may have seen at the shows (and as are shown on the VSA website).
Robert
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Shredder, I looked at the Cary site for your SLP-05 preamp. A "cinema bypass" mode is referenced which should bypass the built in volume control. If you do try the Tortuga, you might want to compare running it as a standalone unit (the way I have mine implemented) and also as an input volume control ahead of the Cary using that cinema bypass setting.
That way, you would basically be using the Cary as a tube buffer. Using the Tortuga alone offers simplicity, fewer switches (none), and fewer connectors/cables. Using the Tortuga into the Cary (as a buffer) adds more complexity, connectors, cables, but the tube buffer follower may provide more optimal impedance for the Tortuga to see.
I suspect that you will like the purity of the Tortuga alone and you may get a wider/deeper soundstage. Soundstage is one area where the Tortuga trounced my ARC REF3. Same for purity, air, openness, instrumental timbre. I was surprised when the Tortuga improved bass articulation and extension to lower frequencies which I wasn't expecting from a passive controller. I haven't tried a Tortuga tube buffer in my system, so I don't have direct experience with this comparison.
Best,
Robert
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Hmmmm, very sad as I love the Cary. I always gravitate toward tubes and am somewhat hesitant to go a different route. Perhaps the tubed Lampi and warmish Modwright suffice. And, if this really is a mismatch, I assume I am losing much of the benefit of the Cary.
My preamp is a tube preamp. It's a McIntosh C500T.