Shopping for server

Samoyed · « **Reply #80 on:** 20 Dec 2018, 02:26 am »

Geez, that sounds great. I WAS looking at Innuos....

brj · « **Reply #81 on:** 20 Dec 2018, 02:58 am »

The OP asked about servers that natively supported DSP. Sterling reputations aside, I'm not aware that either the Bryston BDP or the Aurender N10 natively support DSP.

And to jtwrace's point, end-points using an Ethernet connection, such as the DS Jr, seem to be less susceptible to server 'quality' than endpoints connected to a server over USB or SPDIF connections. That may be why the OP observed less impact from the SGC relative to the MacBook than expected. That's just a general impression on my part, but its based on a lot of reading on the matter. (I'll leave others to run down the rabbit hole of whether audiophile network switches make a difference!

)

JLM · « **Reply #82 on:** 20 Dec 2018, 12:14 pm »

Quote from: brj on 19 Dec 2018, 07:51 pm

JLM, you might be asking the wrong questions... Let's try this: what are you trying to accomplish with DSP?

DSP can be very powerful, but there is a definite learning curve to climb if you want to use it correctly. What you seem to be referring to as DSP is really the combination of 1) making acoustic measurements of your room, 2) generating a correction filter based on those measurements, and 3) the applying the filter to your music in real time. Tools like Room EQ Wizard, Fuzz Measure, and Dirac can handle the first 2 of those elements, while playback software like Roon and many others handle the 3rd.

There are systems out there like Audyssey, as is included with many AV receivers, which guide you through a series of acoustic measurements and then automatically generates a filter and applies it, but those systems have a hard time improving the sound throughout your listening room (though some will perform averaging across measurement positions as a compromise), and it may end up not doing what you want.

You already have speakers that are not only controlled directivity, which thus tend to produce fewer negative room interactions than many speakers, but in fact have built-in DSP processing. If you've already measured your room and just want to knock down a couple of peaks in the frequency response, you can do that with the 708P directly, or in Roon via its parametric EQ function if you want a friendlier interface. And if you liked Roon, then you need no server at all. Just run it on your Mac and point it to toward your DS Jr.

In short, DSP is not a magic panacea. It's best used to fix specific, targeted issues after you've selected appropriate speakers for your room and then installed acoustic room treatments appropriate to how your speaker's frequency dependent radiation pattern and power response interact with that room. And as stated, the 708P speakers are great speakers that will react with a room less than most, so you've got a great head-start.

A good friend has talked me out of worrying about more DSP. He points out that I have an excellent room (nearly matches Earl Geddes' room, follows Fibonacci ratios (8ft x 13ft x 21ft) and is well insulated, has (10) GIK 2ft x 4ft 244 panels to combat long/short wall first echo, even (3) tall bookcases for a bit of side wall diffusion), have the controlled directivity JBL 708P monitors as you mention, and use a mid-field setup. Have always been a room/speaker/setup guy first, then treatment, and finally (and only last) EQ. Yes, am using the PEQ features in the 708P monitors to help tame long/short wall first echo. So compared to 99.9% of systems out there, I'm in very good shape without additional DSP. And frankly most listeners are conditioned to their rooms, especially if they are of a of decent size/shape, just from everyday living in our western culture.

So, freed from DSP requirements my search gets very much easier. Now am just looking for an affordable (~$2000) server that handles my small library of ALAC ripped CDs and Tidal while sounding noticeably better than my MacBook Air using iTunes via a 10ft USB cable. Again I'm a 'speaker guy' so haven't heard appreciable differences between iTunes and the alternatives and didn't hear significant differences between the Small Green Computer/Roon/ethernet and my MacBook setup. Note that I do like the sonic improvements my PS Audio DirectStream Junior makes over previous (abet lower priced DACs). I read a lot of about how good various servers sound and how they are steps ahead of using a commercial, multi-purpose computer but didn't hear it on my first try. Not sold on Roon, it's nice but not worth $500 IMO.

Have been trying to stay with 'good' companies like JBL Pro and PS Audio that have long histories, deep resources for R&D and manufacturing, and customer service. The Small Green Computer did not follow that pattern and perhaps that's why I was disappointed. Of course servers are a new type of product, so I can't expect 40+ years of history and resource attributes are probably somewhat less relevant. Out of the servers I've been looking at Auralic Aries G1and Bryston BDP-Pi seem to hit those marks best. Neither has internal music storage however both are Roon ready and play internet radio. The G1 lacks internal storage but has a nice OS, a superior WiFi connection, internal linear power supplies, and AES/EBU output. The BDP-Pi is cheaper and has HDMI output (compatible with my DSJ I2S input?), but is limited to 24/192 (has not been an issue for me), has a weaker OS, and reportedly sounds no better than a Mac mini.

jtwrace · « **Reply #83 on:** 20 Dec 2018, 01:59 pm »

If you're not sold on the GUI being worth $500 then perhaps JRiver is all you need. I'd suggest you not go the Auralic route given your patience with computers. While their hardware is good, their software is not IMO. It was buggy years ago and I still read about it today. If you really want an all in one solution the Aurender is probably the best bet out there even though I think the Nucleus and Roon is far superior in many ways.

JDoyle · « **Reply #84 on:** 20 Dec 2018, 02:45 pm »

I’ll kindly suggest again that since you’re relatively close, go visit Salk and check out his Streamer (perhaps audition some speakers too

).

Secondly , once you make your decision, give the Roon/Tidal experience another try via the monthly subscription... then it’s not as large of a nut to deal with.

JD

JoshK · « **Reply #85 on:** 20 Dec 2018, 04:15 pm »

Quote from: JLM on 20 Dec 2018, 12:14 pm

A good friend has talked me out of worrying about more DSP. He points out that I have an excellent room (nearly matches Earl Geddes' room, follows Fibonacci ratios (8ft x 13ft x 21ft) and is well insulated, has (10) GIK 2ft x 4ft 244 panels to combat long/short wall first echo, even (3) tall bookcases for a bit of side wall diffusion), have the controlled directivity JBL 708P monitors as you mention, and use a mid-field setup. Have always been a room/speaker/setup guy first, then treatment, and finally (and only last) EQ. Yes, am using the PEQ features in the 708P monitors to help tame long/short wall first echo. So compared to 99.9% of systems out there, I'm in very good shape without additional DSP. And frankly most listeners are conditioned to their rooms, especially if they are of a of decent size/shape, just from everyday living in our western culture.

I didn't want to derail the thread too much, but one does really want to use DSP above 500hz anyway if your speakers have good controlled directivity. JBL Synthesis has said this in fact, and why I use an Athem Pre/Pro in my system (you can set the limit for which the room correction works up till). Basically your Schroeder freq is somewhere in the 150-250hz range and *at most* you want to correct an octave above this (500hz). Let DSP add the final touches once you setup your distributed bass solution, but as mentioned before you can do this within the subs and maybe a tiny bit of EQ in the JBL's bottom end if needed. You shouldn't be messing too much more than that, cause DSP is a single point solution, not a three dimensional solution (I don't want to go off on a tangent here).

Quote from: JLM on 20 Dec 2018, 12:14 pm

So, freed from DSP requirements my search gets very much easier. Now am just looking for an affordable (~$2000) server that handles my small library of ALAC ripped CDs and Tidal while sounding noticeably better than my MacBook Air using iTunes via a 10ft USB cable. Again I'm a 'speaker guy' so haven't heard appreciable differences between iTunes and the alternatives and didn't hear significant differences between the Small Green Computer/Roon/ethernet and my MacBook setup. Note that I do like the sonic improvements my PS Audio DirectStream Junior makes over previous (abet lower priced DACs). I read a lot of about how good various servers sound and how they are steps ahead of using a commercial, multi-purpose computer but didn't hear it on my first try. Not sold on Roon, it's nice but not worth $500 IMO.

The other major point is that there shouldn't be a major difference in SQ from servers, after all they are providing data to your endpoint. If you are using an Ethernet connection on your DSJ then I would posit that you should not be able to hear a difference and any difference is likely bias rather than real. Because unless your server is processing the data to be difference than the original it is just sending packet data to the network and the endpoint is converting that packet data into your digital stream. The packets either exist or they don't, they aren't better or worse and jitter isn't involved because it is a buffered stack. As long as the bits inside the Bridge II do they job properly, you *should not* be able to tell the difference between servers. Similar thing is which USB afaik, but I haven't delved deeply into that tech because I never liked that solution.

So what is the point of a "better" server? UI basically. Does it provide you with all the functionality you desire and the ease of use at the same time? Then add to that ability to protect the data you have. IMO, there is a lot of magic fairly dust thinking that has found its way into the server world that is unsubstantiated at best. You said you are a speaker guy, like me, and that and the room is 95+% of it. Don't go chasing fairly tales unless you can see real evidence it is worthwhile, IMO. You said you couldn't see an upgrade with the SGC over the macbook and to me that is of no surprise at all.

skunark · « **Reply #86 on:** 20 Dec 2018, 05:18 pm »

If you are still interested in a dsp you can try it still try it out with your macbook air.
http://blog.roonlabs.com/digital-room-correction/
Since your ps audio direct stream junior is Roon ready, just install the Roon server on your macbook air with a trial or short subscription and give it a go with the roon app.

Also have you tried a uPnP mediaserver like MinimServer running on your mac with the ps audio app? If that works for you then maybe a small synology or qnap nas server running a pnp media server.

Did i read this right that the direct stream jr converts all pcm to dsd?

kingdeezie · « **Reply #87 on:** 20 Dec 2018, 07:34 pm »

Quote from: jtwrace on 20 Dec 2018, 01:59 pm

I'd suggest you not go the Auralic route given your patience with computers. While their hardware is good, their software is not IMO. It was buggy years ago and I still read about it today.

Having just added an Auralic Aries G1 streamer to my system, I would have to disagree thus far. In my two weeks of using the device, in connection with my I-devices, I haven't had any software issues.

Actually, it has performed flawlessly. I can directly use Tidal and/or Qubuz with it. It accepts Airplay, so I can listen to Youtube music with a touch of a button on my phone.
It works with Spotify Connect.

Album art works all of the time thus far. There is always a possibility down the road of a software error, but so far it seems fairly rock solid.

rollo · « **Reply #88 on:** 20 Dec 2018, 09:02 pm »

Servers do not sound different ?? Yes they do. We had a server shootout and every person in attendance agreed to hearing differences. I guess you have heard them all ? You might want to hear an Innuos Zenith mk3.

charles

JDoyle · « **Reply #89 on:** 21 Dec 2018, 12:26 am »

Quote from: JDoyle on 15 Dec 2018, 07:31 pm

He’s looking for an improvement and this device looks promising

https://youtu.be/nCoFIdPLcUk

JD

Hmmm... looks like this device is causing some issues to users over on CA:
https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/27617-sotm-sms-200-unveiled-at-munich-hi-end/

JD

JLM · « **Reply #90 on:** 21 Dec 2018, 11:27 am »

Quote from: JDoyle on 21 Dec 2018, 12:26 am

Hmmm... looks like this device is causing some issues to users over on CA:
https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/27617-sotm-sms-200-unveiled-at-munich-hi-end/

JD

Your link is two years old. SOTM has introduced two newer/better streamers since then.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uADNLgJ3tSA

JLM · « **Reply #91 on:** 21 Dec 2018, 11:31 am »

Thanks again for all the support. Am closing in on an Auralic Aries G1:

1.) Comes from a good company, for servers relatively old/stable;
2.) Has all outputs except I2S, which isn’t a standard anyway;
3.) Very well designed/built;
4.) Hans Beekhuyzen really likes it (Hans focuses on my price range, has many YouTube reviews available, and seems knowledgable/practical);
5.) Is a one box solution (server/streamer with internal storage) and designed to run wirelessly;
6.) Has a good operating system (no need to spend $500 on Roon).

Still have more homework to do. The biggest issue is the lack of U.S. dealers (most are mail order) and I’ll need support for setup/maintenance.

jpm · « **Reply #92 on:** 21 Dec 2018, 01:46 pm »

Re. Auralic support, my experience discovering a brand new way to mess up An Auralic account and Tidal promo got very prompt support from Auralic and was quickly escalated to Xuanqian Wang who personally resolved the problem. Unless there have been big changes (for the worse) you shouldn’t need to worry.

JackD · « **Reply #93 on:** 21 Dec 2018, 03:40 pm »

I agree. After over two and a half years of Auralic ownership I've always found their support to be excellent including personal e-mails from the CEO plus they now have their own forum. The most recent updates to their firmware now include the ability for room equalization if you so desire. Unlike Jason I have never had issues with their software.

TomS · « **Reply #94 on:** 21 Dec 2018, 04:37 pm »

I'll be another contrarian, along with Jason, and add that Auralic DS Lightning was a royal pain in my experience. I managed several Aries' for myself and other friends who were not networking savvy. Initially there was always some stumbling block to get it working on both their networks and mine. Eventually support would solve the problem, but it was never a straightforward case of just not following directions. After dealing with obscure bugs just to play music, I finally moved on ...

I've had a NUC with Roon ROCK software for quite some time and I NEVER touch it. It properly reboots and restarts itself on the frequent power outages where we live. BTW, the SOtM SMS-200 did NOT recover well, and drove me absolutely nuts. ROCK upgrades are automatic and seamless, and it sounds great. Yes, it's been "ROCK" solid for me.

PeteG · « **Reply #95 on:** 21 Dec 2018, 08:14 pm »

I've been very happy with Lumin app which I use now, just as good as Jriver, Audirvana and Roon when I used a mac mini.

http://www.luminmusic.com/lumin-app.html

JLM · « **Reply #96 on:** 21 Dec 2018, 10:49 pm »

Got an email reply from Want (Auralc CEO) that confirms the Auralic G1 won't run off my MacBook, and suggests it's not for me. So it's out of the running.

Another option I've been looking at is Euphony PTS server/streamer, with Matrix USB cable and X-SPDIF 2 converter, I2S cable, and Keces P3 linear power supply for both the PTS and converter. Note that Euphony puts software with the music on the same drive to reduce latency. Here's a couple of reviews (the 2nd one is of a add-on SSD with loaded software):

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/combo-review-euphony-pts-matrix-x-spdif-2-keces-p8.866878/

http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/euphony_audio_transport_e.html

Biggest issue question for me is usability of its OS.

jtwrace · « **Reply #97 on:** 21 Dec 2018, 11:16 pm »

I don't understand why you don't like Roon. Can you explain?

JackD · « **Reply #98 on:** 21 Dec 2018, 11:17 pm »

Is not buying a iPad the reason you don't just use the Bridge II in the DS Jr?

jtwrace · « **Reply #99 on:** 21 Dec 2018, 11:20 pm »

Quote from: JackD on 21 Dec 2018, 11:17 pm

Is not buying a iPad the reason you don't just use the Bridge II in the DS Jr?

Ethernet in and Roon running on a NUC or Nucleus is all one needs IMO.