[stvnharr]

Yes, I did give it a week or two, ready for more torture. I forgot the words so I need to hear it again... haha

I like the room this way better anyway, the soundstage is huge with far away sidewalls. So I hope it can be tamed by MS. I told my wife I would be playing "that song" again, she was glad she would not be home tomorrow.

To clarify, the first step is basically to get the speakers as far apart as possible while still maintaining a solid mono center image, and 3+ft distance from sidewalls? This is done with speakers perpendicular to, and close against the front wall. Do I have that right? Thanks

Two great "mono" recordings that I love are Miles Davis 'Kind of Blue' which I have listened to since my father gave me the LP in 1977. so I know it very well. It seems like stereo, but actually it is a 3 track recording, Center, left and right, as is Sketches of Spain. They are both recorded live with plenty of spill into all the mics, so it sounds like a coherent stereophonic soundfield, but the images in the center are actually true mono, without panning effects. Miles' image on the center track is like granite and is great for setting width. It was state of the art for Columbia Records in 1956. The other is a true mono recording of Clifford Brown / Max Roach Quintet, Clifford playing 'I Don't stand a Ghost of a chance with You,' a great recording from Capital studio B in Hollywood from 1954, with the whole band dead center.
Rich

Hi Rich,
Yes you have the first step right. When you have a big long wall as you do, try not to get the speakers TOO far apart, as I used to do. Try to still maintain the initial triangle point for the listening.  With a mono jazz piece it's tempting to pull things a little too far apart, as it tends to sound better, but MS will work the very best if you can start with a good solid center image.  I think it's a little easier maybe with a solo guitar, but it's whatever works.

Hm, as many times as I've listened to the song, I never get tired of it.  Maybe it's because I only listen to the first couple verses and then hit repeat, and rarely go more than a minute or two into the song.

Steve

[richidoo]

Thanks Steven, that makes sense.  I understand that the listening chair is placed to make equilateral triangle when speakers are against the wall at step one. Then you just leave it in same place throughout the master set procedure, even though the speakers move out from the wall making isosceles triangle. When finished you can move the listening seat farther back to restore equilateral triangle? Or should the Master set procedure be done using the final listening position from the beginning, even if it is farther away than an equal triangle?  In this setup my listening chair is 13 feet back from speakers at the start and about 11 feet after it is done. Speakers are about 10feet apart so I have some flexibility. I can put the chair anywhere, so what is ideal? Thanks

And Thanks to Hugh for allowing this thread to continue, even though it's not not directly related to Aspen products. My friend Carlman wants me to try AKSA now that I am starting to build DIY amps. He introduced me to you at RMAF07.
Rich

[stvnharr]

Thanks Steven, that makes sense.  I understand that the listening chair is placed to make equilateral triangle when speakers are against the wall at step one. Then you just leave it in same place throughout the master set procedure, even though the speakers move out from the wall making isosceles triangle. When finished you can move the listening seat farther back to restore equilateral triangle? Or should the Master set procedure be done using the final listening position from the beginning, even if it is farther away than an equal triangle?  In this setup my listening chair is 13 feet back from speakers at the start and about 11 feet after it is done. Speakers are about 10feet apart so I have some flexibility. I can put the chair anywhere, so what is ideal? Thanks

And Thanks to Hugh for allowing this thread to continue, even though it's not not directly related to Aspen products. My friend Carlman wants me to try AKSA now that I am starting to build DIY amps. He introduced me to you at RMAF07.
Rich

Rich,
I usually don't move the listening chair during the setup procedure, but you can if you wish to do so. I found that if I didn't move the chair that it was slightly easier to hear things as it puts you a little closer.  Just be sure to keep yourself centered until you get to the final stages, where you need to move around a bit to hear if things are even throughout the room.  Is the 10 foot spread the max that you can maintain the centered mono image? You know what's best as you are the one there and listening.

Steve

[jhm731]

Steve-

FYI- Your Master Set instructions were discussed on TAS Reviewer - Robert E. Greene's forum.

See:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/regsaudioforum/message/27225

Dan

[richidoo]

Master Set gave me nice bass on the long wall, but not much help for the massive echo at the rear of the room, it colors midrange too much. The other shorter wall is better in my case. Thanks.

Listening for the image panning especially in bass notes helped to lock in the 2nd speaker's position, good idea.
Rich

[stvnharr]

Steve-

FYI- Your Master Set instructions were discussed on TAS Reviewer - Robert E. Greene's forum.

See:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/regsaudioforum/message/27225

Dan

Interesting read, kinda sorta.  This was referenced from my write up last October, rather than anything more recently.  It was quite clear from the couple of posts that nobody had much of an idea about what Master Set is about.  Maybe my write up was no good.
BTW, I think REG is one of the best of the audio writers.

[stvnharr]

Master Set gave me nice bass on the long wall, but not much help for the massive echo at the rear of the room, it colors midrange too much. The other shorter wall is better in my case. Thanks.

Listening for the image panning especially in bass notes helped to lock in the 2nd speaker's position, good idea.
Rich

Hi Rich,
I would have thought the long wall would have worked better.  Echo at the rear of the room is generally why the short wall doesn't work well.  But you've got an odd shape there, and if the fireplace wall works best, you have to go with it for sure.

Steve

[stvnharr]

Hello,
I have posted a link to my gallery showing my Master Set.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=1827

As can be seen from the photos, the room is small and listening positions would be considered as nearfield.

The photo from the right is taken from just behind my listening seat and is essentially on axis with right speaker.  Distance to each speaker from listening seat is as follows, 11 feet to left speaker and 7 feet to right speaker.  Sound is perfectly centered between the two speakers.

The left photo is taken from where I now sit and type, and rarely used for listening.  Distance to each speaker is as follows, 7 feet to left speaker and 12 feet to right speaker.  Sound is well centered between the two speakers, although by sitting to left of left speaker I do hear the left speaker slightly more than the right speaker.

I can't really sit in the center as there is a fireplace that sticks out into the room from the wall.  Before I got Master Set "perfected", I would normally sit on a moveable chair in front of the fireplace, for a real front row seat, but the sweet spot was fairly small.

Hope this helps.

Steve

[richidoo]

So close to the wall! Nice system Steven. Thanks

[stvnharr]

So close to the wall! Nice system Steven. Thanks

Rich,
Yes, Master Set is pretty close to the wall in relation to "conventional" setup.  Remember, the magic in Master Set is in having the speakers in the zone where they are decoupled from the wall behind and also the room.  This occurs fairly close to the wall. 

steve

[bummrush]

So how far from speakers do you sit?Toe in seems pretty extreme.

[stvnharr]

So how far from speakers do you sit?Toe in seems pretty extreme.

I sit about 7 feet from the right speaker in the photos.  I don't sit in the center.  Master Set has a rather extreme toe in, compared to the way most people set their speakers.  I remember the first time I saw this, with the Vienna Acoustics Mahler's, and it looked a bit odd to me.  Then I heard the music, and it was the best I had ever heard.  Don't get all hung up on the toe in.

[satfrat]

"Taken from just behind the listening area seat"

Simply incredible that you'd place your chair this far off center axis to obtain a wide deep soundstage. Guess this is something that needs to be experienced in order to really understand what's taking place here. Thanks for sharing your pictures as it really helps understand what's really being accomplished here with this "Master Set", even if I don't completely understand how to accomplish it myself.

Cheers,
Robin

[stvnharr]

"Taken from just behind the listening area seat"

Simply incredible that you'd place your chair this far off center axis to obtain a wide deep soundstage. Guess this is something that needs to be experienced in order to really understand what's taking place here. Thanks for sharing your pictures as it really helps understand what's really being accomplished here with this "Master Set", even if I don't completely understand how to accomplish it myself.

Cheers,
Robin

I believe I wrote that I did not sit in the center as the fireplace is in the way. I prefer sitting as I do as that's where the chair is placed in the room.  The sound is the same, whether I sit in the middle of the room or comfortably as I do.  I never mentioned anything about sitting to the right to obtain a wide deep soundstage.  The "soundstage" is between the speakers no matter where in the room that I sit.

Tip of the Day: I have come to realize that Master Set is quite hard for most people to understand, let along accomplish.  However, if you have some time to kill, here is an easier way to get much of the advantage of Master Set.
Move the "to be" anchor speaker out from the wall until all sound is heard only from this speaker.  This is easy to hear and doesn't require the 2mm movements as you can go 1/2" at a move.  Mark the spot on the floor somehow when the sound decouples from the other speaker.  Then move the speaker out 5 or 6 inches until the sound recouples with the other speaker, and mark that spot.  Forget the step about finding the best bass, as that's really hard to hear.  Just put the speaker in the middle of the two marks.  Then move the other speaker out into the room this same amount, and listen.  You can adjust the second speaker to get the most centered sound in the vocal by moving the speaker either in or out in previously described small amounts, until you are happy with the sound. You might try a track from a solo instrument recording, if you have one.
You won't have a "locked in" Master Set, or the best bass MS, but you'll have a fair part of the Master Set magic.  And it shouldn't take you more than a half hour or so. 
If you find yourself pleased with this, you can do a more full Master Set at a later time
I have a fairly small room.

[satfrat]

I believe I wrote that I did not sit in the center as the fireplace is in the way. I prefer sitting as I do as that's where the chair is placed in the room.  The sound is the same, whether I sit in the middle of the room or comfortably as I do.  I never mentioned anything about sitting to the right to obtain a wide deep soundstage.  The "soundstage" is between the speakers no matter where in the room that I sit.

Yes you did in fact mention about the fireplace, I wasn't questioning anything about why or where your seating is placed. I was simply taking for granted that you were experiencing a wide deep sound stage from where you sit. Was I wrong to assume this? If as you say the sound stage is between the loudspeakers no matter where you sit in the room, then there is no "sweet spot", right? If you wouldn't catagorize your sound stage as being wide or deep, how would you describe it? Is the imaging also the same no matter where you're sitting in the room? Sorry for all these questions but your above statements have me totally lost as what's actually being accomplished here as far as the type of sound stage that I'm accustomed to and the type of sound stage presense you're actually experiencing. Thanks.

Cheers,
Robin

[stvnharr]

I believe I wrote that I did not sit in the center as the fireplace is in the way. I prefer sitting as I do as that's where the chair is placed in the room.  The sound is the same, whether I sit in the middle of the room or comfortably as I do.  I never mentioned anything about sitting to the right to obtain a wide deep soundstage.  The "soundstage" is between the speakers no matter where in the room that I sit.

Yes you did in fact mention about the fireplace, I wasn't questioning anything about why or where your seating is placed. I was simply taking for granted that you were experiencing a wide deep sound stage from where you sit. Was I wrong to assume this? If as you say the sound stage is between the loudspeakers no matter where you sit in the room, then there is no "sweet spot", right? If you wouldn't catagorize your sound stage as being wide or deep, how would you describe it? Is the imaging also the same no matter where you're sitting in the room? Sorry for all these questions but your above statements have me totally lost as what's actually being accomplished here as far as the type of sound stage that I'm accustomed to and the type of sound stage presense you're actually experiencing. Thanks.

Cheers,
Robin

Robin,
I'll do my best to answer your questions about "soundstaging".
There is essentially NO sweet spot with properly done Master Set. The musical images are firmly set in a near perfect stereo image between the two speakers that does not change with one's seating in the room. The seating in the listening room is much like seating at a venue, in that you just move your own perspective to the musicians, but the musicians don't move with you as you move.  Over in my far left seat, the music stays between the speakers, but I do have a different perspective to the sound as I am so far to the left.  I don't listen here much at all.  In a venue, I generally prefer to sit in the middle, and if the fireplace was not in the way, I would do so here.  Indeed, until I got Master Set done well, I used to sit on a moveable chair in front of the fireplace to listen.
It may have been lost in the reading about Master Set long ago, but when the two speakers equally pressurize the room, you hear them equally from most anywhere in the room.  When they are unequal, you generally hear the one that is loudest from your seating position.

I kind of think you are asking me about "3-D soundstaging" that I might be experiencing here.  Afterall, when you put the speakers well out into the room, you get that big 3-D effect from all the reflections.  Well, with MS you don't get the big 3-D effect because there really aren't any reflections to muddy and diffuse things.
I've found the "3-D soundstaging" with MS to be rather interesting.  I've very conscious of it as I am sitting up close, nearly like being in the first few rows at symphony hall, or the like.  The sound is seems to just float in space. The sound seems to float back to the wall without touching it, and almost making the wall invisible.  And, as always, the sound never really comes forward from the front baffles of the speakers. 
All I can add is that when I listen, the sound seems perfectly proportioned and quite like that of a performance.

Hope this helps and didn't muddy things up too much.

Steve

[satfrat]

Robin,
I'll do my best to answer your questions about soundstaging.

Anything you can offer would be appreciated.

[DSK]

... There is essentially NO sweet spot with properly done Master Set. The musical images are firmly set in a near perfect stereo image between the two speakers that does not change with one's seating in the room. The seating in the listening room is much like seating at a venue, in that you just move your own perspective to the musicians, but the musicians don't move with you as you move.  Over in my far left seat, the music stays between the speakers, but I do have a different perspective to the sound as I am so far to the left.  I don't listen here much at all.  In a venue, I generally prefer to sit in the middle, and if the fireplace was not in the way, I would do so here.  Indeed, until I got Master Set done well, I used to sit on a moveable chair in front of the fireplace to listen.
It may have been lost in the reading about Master Set long ago, but when the two speakers equally pressurize the room, you hear them equally from most anywhere in the room.  When they are unequal, you generally hear the one that is loudest from your seating position.

I kind of think you are asking me about "3-D soundstaging" that I might be experiencing here.  Afterall, when you put the speakers well out into the room, you get that big 3-D effect from all the reflections.  Well, with MS you don't get the big 3-D effect because there really aren't any reflections to muddy and diffuse things.
I've found the "3-D soundstaging" with MS to be rather interesting.  I've very conscious of it as I am sitting up close, nearly like being in the first few rows at symphony hall, or the like.  The sound is seems to just float in space. The sound seems to float back to the wall without touching it, and almost making the wall invisible.  And, as always, the sound never really comes forward from the front baffles of the speakers. 
All I can add is that when I listen, the sound seems perfectly proportioned and quite like that of a performance....

As one who has not (yet) tried the Master Set, I'd be very interested in the "hows" and "whys" of how this system works given that it seems (to me) to contradict a number of things that I have held to be true for so long.

For example, you mention that in an MS setup the vocalist does not move left/right as the listener does.  The key difference is that, at the live performance, the vocalist is a single point source and does not move as the listener does, but in a hifi setup the vocalist's position is created by the varying amplitudes of 2 speakers (ie. stereo). As you say, in traditional speaker setup methods, the vocalist is dragged toward the nearest speaker (unless the speakers are crossed in front of the listener so that the nearest speaker is more off-axis and this eliminates the effect of the increased amplitude from the nearest speaker). An earlier post seemed to indicate an aggressive toe-in so perhaps this is what is going on here. If not, then what is the reason for MS being able to seemingly defy the laws of stereo?

If we assume a decent listening room (primary reflections are treated so as not to send a strong, coherent reflection to the listener), then the room mostly affects the sub 200Hz frequencies. I can certainly understand that a symmetrical setup (equilateral triangle) may not be "symmetrical" in the sense of the overall room if one half of the room has an extra nook or opening or different shape or .... and can thus accept that an irregular speaker setup may better balance the "pressurisation" of the room under 200Hz as the room may be having a greater affect on the sub 200Hz frequencies of one speaker than the other when in a mathematically symmetrical setup, causing peaks and nulls. I can see how the MS will cause each speaker to end up in the location where it produces the greatest and most even sub 200Hz output without cancelling any of the output of the other speaker. This may reduce the need to turn up the volume as high to energise the room, thus causing the amp(s) to have an easier time and perhaps reducing the situation whereby bass in the room sounds weak but bass outside that room sounds strong. However, the irregular setup in regards to the traditional listening seat (half way between the speakers) will mean that one speaker baffle is closer to the listener than the other and (if not overcome by toe-in crossed in front of the listener) will cause the nearest speaker to be higher in amplitude (above 200Hz) and thus be more dominant than the other. This will usually drag say a female vocalist to the dominant side. If not the toe-in, how is this being overcome?

Over the years I have done a great deal of listening and measurement tests to achieve optimal speaker positioning in various rooms. Given this, and the thought of a spending a whole day listening to The Ballad Of The Runaway Horse while doing 2mm speaker locations changes, I have not eagerly jumped out of my seat and tried MS. Before ever hearing this track, I wondered if I would be able to readily hear the differences in bass notes intensity in order to properly try the MS method. Recently, I heard this track played on a very nice system and readily heard a couple of reticent notes and a couple of strong ones. Others in the room heard the same thing so I gained a little confidence there and managed to obtain the CD. This week, I played it several times with subwoofer off and several times with subwoofer on. All the bass notes sounded very even to me, with and without the sub. My current speaker locations were done using ears and measurements and the system measures +/-3dB from 20Hz to 4kHz using third octave pink noise. So, my thoughts are that perhaps I have more or less arrived at the optimal setup by ears/measurements but the MS method would be ideal for enthusiasts without the measurement facility? I do get wonderful imaging and soundstage width, depth, height and on decent recordings the walls just melt away. The setup is symmetrical to the room and the listener, speakers are currently angled directly at the sweetspot. Listening from outside the sweetspot still sounds pretty good and doesn't seem to drag the vocalist to the nearest speaker as much as most systems.

However, I don't discount the possibility that MS may produce an equally well measuring (sub 200Hz) setup that is superior in terms of efficiency. However, aside from lack of time (and laziness  ), the thing that dampens my eagerness to go to the time and effort of trying MS is that I don't understand how an asymmetrical setup could match let alone surpass the performance I have now above 200Hz. Also, I read the earlier comments that the soundstage depth does not seem to be as good when the MS setup places speakers closer to the wall behind. I wonder whether it would be worth trying something to overcome this ... when you achieve the final MS setup, with speakers close to wall behind, using the MS positioning as your new "starting" position, repeat the process. This way, you may achieve another optimal MS setup that is further off the wall behind and may improve depth of soundstage  aa

Yes, I do know the only to find out for sure is to try it for myself and I'm sure that when I have the time I will do just that. Given that bass notes in BOTRH are already very even, I guess I would be looking for speaker locations that equal this but provide greater room "pressurisation" at the same volume level on the dial. If this is possible then presumably dynamics would be even better as a result.

Again Steve, not trying to shoot anything down here, and not sure you have the answers to the questions ... just wrestling with all this in my own mind  If it works that's all that matters, though it would be nice to understand why. Several people whose opinions I respect (including yours Steve  ) are now singing emphatic praises of MS and it is this that will no doubt eventually drag me off my butt to try it for myself. I hope to visit Hugh again soon, so perhaps a listen to his system (that I know very well) will be the final shove that overcomes the inertia. It's all good. Steve, thanks for your efforts to nudge us all into trying something that may improve our systems at zero $cost.

[gsm18439]

I have a very symmetrical room: approximately 24' x 14.5' x 16' (high). There is no back wall, per se, because the listening/living room is one end of a 24' x 45' x 16' (high) space; the long front wall of the listening/living room is therefore, the end of the larger space. My speakers were already located on the long front wall approximately 10-11' apart and almost equidistant from the two side walls (actually, one is 10" closer to the side wall than the other).

When I began to attempt the MS speaker alignment procedure, it was easy to find the point where the anchor speaker began to decouple from the other speaker. But (to my ears, anyway), it never fully decoupled from the other speaker, and there was no place when the two recoupled - no matter how far I moved the anchor speaker out from the front wall. So, I merely picked the point closest to the front wall where the two "first" decoupled and began to look for the bass nodes. Again, no matter how much (or little) I moved the anchor speaker, there seemed to be little change in bass resonance. So, I finally repositioned the anchor speaker where it "first" decoupled from the other speaker and then moved the other speaker out from the front wall to mirror the position (10" from the front wall) and toe-in (45°) of the anchor speaker. Similar to "MS Light" that Steve described yesterday. I am curious why I could not find a point where the speakers recoupled. I am also curious why I could not find the nodes where bass resonance evened out. Is it the very symmetrical nature of the listening room? Or the fact that the speakers pressurize such a large space?

Nevertheless, I would agree with Steve, the presentation is much closer to what I hear at a concert compared to the typical idealized audiophile image. (I checked again Saturday night when I attended a performance of Brahms' German Requiem and then played a recording of the same piece when I returned home.) I may need to tweak the speaker position a little to better center the image when sitting far off axis, but this is a very enjoyable way to listen to music. The sound is much more enveloping; the soundstage is still wide (wider than the speakers, in my opinion), but not very deep; and the members of the orchestra and chorus and the soloists occupy different places in the image, but without holographic precision. Again, similar to a concert performance.

Gary

[stvnharr]

I have a very symmetrical room: approximately 24' x 14.5' x 16' (high). There is no back wall, per se, because the listening/living room is one end of a 24' x 45' x 16' (high) space; the long front wall of the listening/living room is therefore, the end of the larger space. My speakers were already located on the long front wall approximately 10-11' apart and almost equidistant from the two side walls (actually, one is 10" closer to the side wall than the other).

When I began to attempt the MS speaker alignment procedure, it was easy to find the point where the anchor speaker began to decouple from the other speaker. But (to my ears, anyway), it never fully decoupled from the other speaker, and there was no place when the two recoupled - no matter how far I moved the anchor speaker out from the front wall. So, I merely picked the point closest to the front wall where the two "first" decoupled and began to look for the bass nodes. Again, no matter how much (or little) I moved the anchor speaker, there seemed to be little change in bass resonance. So, I finally repositioned the anchor speaker where it "first" decoupled from the other speaker and then moved the other speaker out from the front wall to mirror the position (10" from the front wall) and toe-in (45°) of the anchor speaker. Similar to "MS Light" that Steve described yesterday. I am curious why I could not find a point where the speakers recoupled. I am also curious why I could not find the nodes where bass resonance evened out. Is it the very symmetrical nature of the listening room? Or the fact that the speakers pressurize such a large space?

Nevertheless, I would agree with Steve, the presentation is much closer to what I hear at a concert compared to the typical idealized audiophile image. (I checked again Saturday night when I attended a performance of Brahms' German Requiem and then played a recording of the same piece when I returned home.) I may need to tweak the speaker position a little to better center the image when sitting far off axis, but this is a very enjoyable way to listen to music. The sound is much more enveloping; the soundstage is still wide (wider than the speakers, in my opinion), but not very deep; and the members of the orchestra and chorus and the soloists occupy different places in the image, but without holographic precision. Again, similar to a concert performance.

Gary

Gary,
Thanks for your post.
I'm not sure I can really help much with your situation.  Given that you didn't get a firm decoupling from the wall placed speaker, I can only suggest that you swap things around and make the wall speaker the anchor, and the anchor the wall speaker.  I've had to do that. But the room where this was done was quite different to yours, so it may make no difference.
All I can add about bass nodes is that they are really hard to hear.  They are also in a very small space, and it's easy to move over them, which is how I came to the 2mm movements.  However, bass smoothing is not the most important factor in setting MS, it just provides a good matching point for the second speaker.
You've probably done about as good as you can get with what I've read here.  If you can get the anchor speaker mostly decoupled then just set it an inch or so out from that point, and try to match this with the second speaker.  One thing to keep in mind is not the symmetry of the room but where the two speakers sit in the room and how the center of this "divides" the room. Invariably one speaker will be just a wee tiny bit louder than the other one. That's why you make just small adjustments in or out from the wall to find the most evenly balanced and firmest center image.  Some times you just have to listen to things for a week and make a small tweaking adjustment, and just continue on with that until you feel satisfied.
One thing I've found about MS is that close is still pretty good, as long as the speakers sit in the decoupled zone.

Steve