[OmahawkSCM]

First off, I would like to say thanks to Louis for a wonderful speaker buying experience. I e-mailed Louis back and forth a few times and settled on a 3T in EKO Neutral. When I called to order them, I expected a sales person, but I actually got Louis (the owner). Amazing. Super nice and he spoke with me a little while on what amp to pair with them.

I have them on 24" stands



Sorry for the crappy iPhone pic. I am just playing them with no room treatments (for now), running lossless files out of a mac mini. I am augmenting the bass with a POS sub 100 from Dayton audio. I have extremely sub par interconnects and speaker wire. This is bring powered with a $25 Lepai lp-2020a that I bought off amazon that feeds it about (I think) 10 watts per side.

I like these speakers SOOOOO much. I listen to about 50% jazz and 50% rock/electronic/indie music and they sound phenomenal. I am really bad about using all of the audiophile descriptive words but they have a seductive midrange and a very accurate sound stage.

If these speakers have a downfall, it is the low end. I tried to run them without a sub, and if I only listened to jazz, it would have been fine. However, it sounds too light with other genres. Others have stated that it is my sub-par amp. However, I also hooked it up to my Yamaha 663 just to find out. This receiver does about 95 watts per channel. While the bass did get better, I would still want a sub for any genre other than jazz.

The only other downfall (maybe a good thing, actually) if that I now want to upgrade all of my other gear to complement the 3T's.

I paid more for these speakers that all other speaker I own, but still feel that I got a phenomenal deal. If I could do it all over again, I would.

Thanks Louis.

[JLM]

Thanks for the review.  Glad you're a satisfied customer and on your audio way.

Just a few suggestions/questions:

Getting them up above the desk should help improve imaging.

Positioning them so that the driver is aimed at ear height should also provide extra high frequency response.

Please clarify your opinion of the Dayton sub.  (I've been curious how these very inexpensive subs actually sound and so many folks looking in their price range just want boom-boom bass.)

[beowulf]

Thanks for the review.  Glad you're a satisfied customer and on your audio way.

Just a few suggestions/questions:

Getting them up above the desk should help improve imaging.

Positioning them so that the driver is aimed at ear height should also provide extra high frequency response.

Please clarify your opinion of the Dayton sub.  (I've been curious how these very inexpensive subs actually sound and so many folks looking in their price range just want boom-boom bass.)

Excellent advice JLM!  And +1 for aiming at your ear position, especially if you are listening "Near Field". (And by the way single driver speakers such as Omega and Hoyt-Bedford are the "bomb" for Near Field listening!)

Others have mentioned in another thread about the amp you are using should eventually be upgraded when your budget allows and since you have speakers with good efficiency - I would look into tube amps in the $1000 or below range.

In the mean time, take a look at the Pioneer SW-8MK2 Subwoofer that was designed by Andrew Jones.  This subwoofer was recommended to me by a forum member, the price is right ... the price is so right, you can add 2 for better results and still not break the bank (2 hould give you better results than sub with a 10" driver) and I've read some good things about it, or if you want a 12" driver then look towards Hsu Research's VTF-2 MK4.

Also IMO, I would wait until you have the other pieces of audio gear (and put more of your budget into the other gear) before you start messing with speaker and interconnect cabling.  While I think good cables are "important", I am one of those that believe the gear is "more important" and the bulk of one's budget should be spent there rather than cables and then (after you've got the basic gear in your system) you should start experimenting with different cables to get the sound just right.

[Canada Rob]

If these speakers have a downfall, it is the low end. I tried to run them without a sub, and if I only listened to jazz, it would have been fine. However, it sounds too light with other genres. Others have stated that it is my sub-par amp. However, I also hooked it up to my Yamaha 663 just to find out. This receiver does about 95 watts per channel. While the bass did get better, I would still want a sub for any genre other than jazz.

Believe it or not, a small single ended (SE) tube amp may give more bass than your 95 watt receiver, and the reason is the low damping factor of the SE amp allows the speaker driver greater excursion allowing for more bass, whereas your receiver with it's likely high damping factor allows less excursion, hence less bass.  Most people think having more power means having more bass, and very often this is just not true.  Omega and Hoyt-Bedford speakers are generally friendly to all amp types, but they clearly favour tubes.  If you have a hundred hours on the speakers and upline gear that synergizes with them, you should have very satisfying bass without a sub, especially in a nearfield setup.  If anything, I found the Super 3T to have almost too much bass on the desktop, and that was with a 2 watt Decware amp.  Damping factor is everything with the RS5 driver which has a looser surround than the old HempCone it replaces.  Not having a DAC can also have a big negative impact on the bottom end. 

Here is another thought: In this day 99% of stereo owners are used to the bass produced by multi driver speakers which for the most part is overpowering and often bloated and unnatural.  They then buy a pair of good single driver speakers like Omegas or Hoyt-Bedfords with their very natural "live" bass and think they are anemic on the bottom end, when in reality they need to re-tune their ears to how live music really sounds, and a good single driver speaker gets as close as anything I have heard. 

[DaveC113]

Good comments and thanks for the review Omahawk 

As far as amps, the TBI millenia that Ozark Tom has going on tour would be a good choice. I auditioned it and it's probably going to be better than most lower end tube amps. It wasn't better than my DIY pre and amp, but I have $2k just in parts invested. For $500 the TBI comes uncomfortably close to very expensive amplifiers.

Also, I have the Super 3 XRS and still use a sub, a decent sealed sub will match up well with the Omegas. Louis has more subs on the way, I'd talk to him about getting an Omega sub, I know that's what I'm going to do as my next upgrade. I have a nice Adire 10" sealed sub, but want a pair of 12" subs.

As far as cables, the stuff that comes in the box with cheap components are worth replacing immediately. I wouldn't spend much but there is a huge difference between CHEAP cables and decent inexpensive cables. Once you get equipment you plan on keeping for a long time, then look into better cabling. Being a DIY guy I'm not sure what to recommend and all my cables might be a little overkill for you at this point... if your budget is limited it makes a lot more sense to put the money into a nice amp and DAC rather than cables. If you don't mind DIYing some cables, feel free to copy my design and look into switchcraft RCA plugs rather than the more expensive Furutech connectors I use. My D1 cable could be made for about $30 using the switchcraft RCA plugs and will be a very good cable. For speaker cable, get some 18 gauge mil spec (silver plated copper w/teflon insulation) and twist it into a star quad using a drill. Strip the ends of the wire, insert into binding posts and enjoy! A 8' pair of star quad would cost about $13 to make with the 18g mil spec wire and you will need to spend a lot more money to beat it.

[OmahawkSCM]

Getting them up above the desk should help improve imaging.

Positioning them so that the driver is aimed at ear height should also provide extra high frequency response.

Please clarify your opinion of the Dayton sub.  (I've been curious how these very inexpensive subs actually sound and so many folks looking in their price range just want boom-boom bass.)

Thanks for the info regarding imaging. I actually do have them positioned so that they are ear level with a lazy boy that puts my ears about 6 inches lower than my computer chair. Regarding the dayton sub, it just seems very one note and muddled. It's ok, I guess, but I really want something that pairs with these Omegas more.

[OmahawkSCM]

Excellent advice JLM!  And +1 for aiming at your ear position, especially if you are listening "Near Field". (And by the way single driver speakers such as Omega and Hoyt-Bedford are the "bomb" for Near Field listening!)

Others have mentioned in another thread about the amp you are using should eventually be upgraded when your budget allows and since you have speakers with good efficiency - I would look into tube amps in the $1000 or below range.

In the mean time, take a look at the Pioneer SW-8MK2 Subwoofer that was designed by Andrew Jones.  This subwoofer was recommended to me by a forum member, the price is right ... the price is so right, you can add 2 for better results and still not break the bank (2 hould give you better results than sub with a 10" driver) and I've read some good things about it, or if you want a 12" driver then look towards Hsu Research's VTF-2 MK4.

Also IMO, I would wait until you have the other pieces of audio gear (and put more of your budget into the other gear) before you start messing with speaker and interconnect cabling.  While I think good cables are "important", I am one of those that believe the gear is "more important" and the bulk of one's budget should be spent there rather than cables and then (after you've got the basic gear in your system) you should start experimenting with different cables to get the sound just right.

The main thing I remember hearing about tube amps is that, not unlike a video projector, they "like" to be powered on for an extended period of time if they ever get turned on. I often listen to music sporadically for like, 20m at a time and might feel more comfortable with a SS amp. Is this frame of mind incorrect?

I love the price of that pioneer 8". I was budgeting around 3-500 for a sub. And if I spend only 100, then I can spend the remainder on something like a DAC or new stands or room treatments.

Lastly, I agree with you on interconnects and speaker wire. They will be my last upgrade. Heck, I may never do them.

Thanks for all the hints/advice.

[OmahawkSCM]

Believe it or not, a small single ended (SE) tube amp may give more bass than your 95 watt receiver, and the reason is the low damping factor of the SE amp allows the speaker driver greater excursion allowing for more bass, whereas your receiver with it's likely high damping factor allows less excursion, hence less bass.  Most people think having more power means having more bass, and very often this is just not true.  Omega and Hoyt-Bedford speakers are generally friendly to all amp types, but they clearly favour tubes.  If you have a hundred hours on the speakers and upline gear that synergizes with them, you should have very satisfying bass without a sub, especially in a nearfield setup.  If anything, I found the Super 3T to have almost too much bass on the desktop, and that was with a 2 watt Decware amp.  Damping factor is everything with the RS5 driver which has a looser surround than the old HempCone it replaces.  Not having a DAC can also have a big impact on the bottom end. 

Here is another thought: In this day 99 % of stereo owners are used to the bass produced by multi driver speakers which for the most part is overpowering and often bloated and unnatural.  They then buy a pair of good single driver speakers like Omegas or Hoyt-Bedfords with their very natural "live" bass and think they are anemic on the bottom end, when in reality they need to re-tune their ears to how live music really sounds, and a good single driver speaker gets as close as anything I have heard.

I hear you on the low powered amp. I just have some feeling that money would be better spent on a good sub, than a sub-par (pun intended) tube amp. For example, that $100 pioneer sub would be a marked upgrade, but the same coin wouldn't get me diddly for a tube amp.

I have a feeling that you are on to something WRT being used to bass that is "bloated and unnatural". Me thinks that my ears have some unlearning to do!

[OmahawkSCM]

As far as amps, the TBI millenia that Ozark Tom has going on tour would be a good choice. I auditioned it and it's probably going to be better than most lower end tube amps. It wasn't better than my DIY pre and amp, but I have $2k just in parts invested. For $500 the TBI comes uncomfortably close to very expensive amplifiers.

Also, I have the Super 3 XRS and still use a sub, a decent sealed sub will match up well with the Omegas. Louis has more subs on the way, I'd talk to him about getting an Omega sub, I know that's what I'm going to do as my next upgrade. I have a nice Adire 10" sealed sub, but want a pair of 12" subs.

As far as cables, the stuff that comes in the box with cheap components are worth replacing immediately. I wouldn't spend much but there is a huge difference between CHEAP cables and decent inexpensive cables. Once you get equipment you plan on keeping for a long time, then look into better cabling.

That TBI millenia is quite out of my price range. I have been considering NAD 325's and such, and even used on a-gon for around 250-300 is quite the stretch. The musical paradise is about $400 shipped and that is pretty much my absolute max and would also cure my desire for a HP amp AND a tube amp.

For sub, I was thinking the SVS SB-12 NSD for $650 shipped. It's a sealed 12" and was recommended to me directly from Ed Mullen at SVS.

As far as cables, I don't plan on spending more than $75 total. More like $30 would be great.

[DaveC113]

That TBI millenia is quite out of my price range. I have been considering NAD 325's and such, and even used on a-gon for around 250-300 is quite the stretch. The musical paradise is about $400 shipped and that is pretty much my absolute max and would also cure my desire for a HP amp AND a tube amp.

For sub, I was thinking the SVS SB-12 NSD for $650 shipped. It's a sealed 12" and was recommended to me directly from Ed Mullen at SVS.

As far as cables, I don't plan on spending more than $75 total. More like $30 would be great.

The TBI is only $100 more than the musical paradise. You could look for one to pop up used. IMO, the amp is very, very important. I'd prioritize the amp over spending $650 on a sub. I'd also prioritize a decent DAC over the sub. A good sub is nice, but you can find one used for much less than $650. My Adire sub retailed for $1k and I got it for $300 on ebay. If you don't have a decent source and amp you won't be doing those speakers justice. Garbage in, garbage out and there's no speaker in the world that will make up for a poor source and amp. I've owned NAD amps in the past and I don't feel it's going to be a great match for the Omegas. There is a tour for the TBI amp going on, you should join in and check it out. I'm 99% sure it's going to crush both the NAD and musical paradise by a very large margin.

And don't underestimate how much really cheap cables degrade the sound. As I said, if you diy your own cables you can get a decent IC and SC for about $50 total. It will make a huge difference.

[JLM]

Not to diss Dave's own cables, but being an audio old fart I have a hard time spending serious money on cabling.  Instead I've been buying all custom cables from Scott Endler (good, very affordable).

Another vote for better amp to start with (always go quality pieces versus a pile of so-so stuff).  I agree with you too that tubes aren't for everyone.  I worry about forgetting to turn them off.  I fuss about how long to allow for warm up or how the sound changes with age of tubes.  I obsess over tube matching/rolling concerns.  I've been a solid state boy for 40 years, but I do get it (home auditioned a Decware SE34i (wonderful rich/holographic sound) but the bloated bass on my full rangers, and serious technical issues it had of popping/crackling 'cured' me from tubes. 

Be patient and invest in one good piece at a time (as you have with the Omega 3Ts).  Look for recommendations like Dave's for the TBI amp (who is familiar with your existing pieces, has experience, and may share in your audio preferences).  Keep in mind that audio is about music and gear, with the gear portion mostly revolving around the hunt the next trophy piece.  Trophy being in eye of the beholder (certainly not the biggest, baddest, or most expensive).

[OmahawkSCM]

The TBI is only $100 more than the musical paradise. You could look for one to pop up used. IMO, the amp is very, very important. I'd prioritize the amp over spending $650 on a sub. I'd also prioritize a decent DAC over the sub. A good sub is nice, but you can find one used for much less than $650. My Adire sub retailed for $1k and I got it for $300 on ebay. If you don't have a decent source and amp you won't be doing those speakers justice. Garbage in, garbage out and there's no speaker in the world that will make up for a poor source and amp. I've owned NAD amps in the past and I don't feel it's going to be a great match for the Omegas. There is a tour for the TBI amp going on, you should join in and check it out. I'm 99% sure it's going to crush both the NAD and musical paradise by a very large margin.

And don't underestimate how much really cheap cables degrade the sound. As I said, if you diy your own cables you can get a decent IC and SC for about $50 total. It will make a huge difference.

Ok, I really like the feedback that you have been giving. You are challenging (in a good way, I assure you) my preconceived notions about audio setups.

I was thinking this upgrade chain:
Sub (500-650)
Room Treatments (500)
Amp (300)
DAC (1-200)
Interconnect and speaker wire (100)
Stands (100)

Now I'm thinking, because of your and beowulf suggestions, this chain:
Sub (pioneer 8") 90 shipped on the A
Amp 500 (TBI millennia)
Room treatments (500)
DAC (1-200)
Interconnect and speaker wire (100)
Stands (100)


I like this upgrade path because I can get the sub immediately b/c it's so inexpensive. Also, I can basically get the the sub and amp for less than I was gonna spend on the sub alone! 

Does this new upgrade path make logical sense to you guys?

Lastly, can I get some advice a DAC to synergies with this system? A little info is that I also have some AKG K501 headphones that could be driven by the musical fidelity but not by the millennia so I definitely like something like the Fiio E10/e7/e17 that also has a HP amp.

Thanks so much for the info!

[rjbond3rd]

Not to diss Dave's own cables, but being an audio old fart I have a hard time spending serious money on cabling.

I've looked at Dave's cables and I was really pleased to see that they are super-affordable, especially compared to "serious money" cables  

[sugbob21]

FYI...I am using a TBI Millenia with Omega super 6 Alnicos and enjoiy it a lot. I don't feel I need a sub for any type of music.

[DaveC113]

Omahawk, I like that...    You can see for yourself if you think the TBI is worth it, I can't think of another amp close to it's price that would work better with the Omegas, I was shocked how good it was in my system and that was the previous version without some of the newer upgrades. If you have a few grand to put down the equation might change but in it's price range it is great amp. I'd normally say to look into spending more on the DAC too, but I haven't heard some of the newer inexpensive DACs out there like the Schiit Modi at $99... I have the Bifrost which is ~$500 and assume it's better but I haven't heard the difference for myself. I will say that with those speakers and a good amp the differences in DACs may be very obvious. As far as room treatments, it might be a good idea to post the floorplan of your room in the acoustics circle to get feedback, the one thing I'd say is if you can bring the speakers out into the room and listen nearfield the characteristics of the RS5 driver may allow for less extensive room treatments, and it is possible to DIY some acoustic treatments as well. I'm not sure, but it is possible you'd be better off spending more on the DAC and less on room treatments, it depends on your room and setup.

@JLM, for Omahawk I agree about the cables which is why I recommend he did not buy my cables at this point. I would also say my cables are very far from "serious money" and represent a much better value for the money than is typical in the cable industry. I mean, my highest end ICs are $275 and $425, you couldn't build the cables yourself for much less and they are meant to compete with the best out there regardless of price... and so far my reviews hold up to that claim. They are "serious money" cables for reasonable prices.    Thanks rjbond for pointing that out too.

[OmahawkSCM]

The TBI is only $100 more than the musical paradise. You could look for one to pop up used. IMO, the amp is very, very important. I'd prioritize the amp over spending $650 on a sub. I'd also prioritize a decent DAC over the sub. A good sub is nice, but you can find one used for much less than $650. My Adire sub retailed for $1k and I got it for $300 on ebay. If you don't have a decent source and amp you won't be doing those speakers justice. Garbage in, garbage out and there's no speaker in the world that will make up for a poor source and amp. I've owned NAD amps in the past and I don't feel it's going to be a great match for the Omegas. There is a tour for the TBI amp going on, you should join in and check it out. I'm 99% sure it's going to crush both the NAD and musical paradise by a very large margin.

And don't underestimate how much really cheap cables degrade the sound. As I said, if you diy your own cables you can get a decent IC and SC for about $50 total. It will make a huge difference.

Ok, I have been thinking about my options more and more. I like the idea of the Schiit Modi ($100) which only has 1 usb input and 1 stereo rca output. That can go into the TBI millennia. However, how would I make all this work with the pioneer sub (it only has inputs)?

Sorry for the newb question!

[OmahawkSCM]

I forgot to say in my original post for beautiful these speakers are. They look much nicer in person than my crappy iPhone pic. And this is "only" the Level 1 finishes that he offers. The Level 2 finishes are 100 more and the Level 2 finishes begin at 200 more. I can only imagine how nice those look!

I am falling more in love with these speakers every time I listen to them. I took the advice to toe them in a bit, and it made a world of difference. Thanks guys!

[DaveC113]

Most subs have speaker level inputs, so you can run a set of speaker cables from amp to subwoofer. It won't use any of the amp's power, it just feeds the signal to the subwoofer's amp.

I've had my Omegas for 6+ years now and still love them. I've compared them to many other single driver speakers, some costing in the 5 figure range and the Omegas will not be embarrassed by any speaker out there regardless of price. The other nice thing about them is they respond well to upgrades in the system, as you tweak and upgrade your system they will just continue to get better and better seemingly without limits... there are no electronics and cables out there that are too good for the Omegas. They are truly world class speakers and one of the best values in audio gear today.

[beowulf]

I've looked at Dave's cables and I was really pleased to see that they are super-affordable, especially compared to "serious money" cables

+1 ... after emailing with Dave, I believe them to be on the very affordable side for what you get, the materials used and the labor involved to make them.

[beowulf]

FYI...I am using a TBI Millenia with Omega super 6 Alnicos and enjoiy it a lot. I don't feel I need a sub for any type of music.

Is the TBI an integrated or direct input type of amplifier with a volume control?  If not, what are you using as a Preamp?