AudioCircle
Other Stuff => Archived Circles => Hypex Owners Circle => Topic started by: mr_bill on 17 Jan 2013, 09:01 pm
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I have read that many owners are plugging straight into the wall but I would like real life experience from the NCore owner/user group on what you are doing for power conditioning for your amps, if any, and if so, what type of power conditioner you are using and the benefits.
I am using a Torus RM15 with my NCore monos and plugging the amps into the Torus or into an Oyaide power strip - not much difference.
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I have several power conditioning options... several DIY Hammond 193L & 193M chokes used as parallel filters, a PS Audio Soloist in-wall filter, and most recently, a PS Audio P10.
When I first started using the NC400, I went back and forth between straight into the wall or in parallel with a 193L & a 193M. With the choke filters they were a bit smoother on the high-end, but slightly less dynamic. I left them into the wall at that time.
I added the Soloist in preparation for the P10. I tried the NC400 into it, heard a bit more reduction of dynamics with similar smoothing in the highs compared to the chokes, and again stuck to straight-in.
Once the P10 arrived, I liked it immediately... smoother highs, more detail & articulation across the spectrum, same or greater dynamics, less change from 'good' powerline times to 'bad' powerline times. I also tried the P10 into the Soloist (as PS recommends) and with the two Hammond chokes in parallel on the input. I didn't think the Soloist added much and still diminished dynamics (only slightly now). The Hammond chokes in front of the P10 added their bit of smoothness with no reduction in dynamics and they've stayed in. Still, the effect of each with the P10 is only a fraction of what it does and I could live happily with just the P10.
Yup, the P10 is expensive and heavy. But it was very worthwhile with the NC400 to my ears.
YMMV.
Greg in Mississippi
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I would like real life experience from the NCore owner/user group on what you are doing for power conditioning for your amps, if any, and if so, what type of power conditioner you are using and the benefits.
I have found that my nCores do best without anything between them and the power feed - and that makes sense, considering the current drive capability and common mode rejection ratio of the nc400/smps600 combination. You really don't want to strangle that with inductors, and there is no need for additional filtering either.
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I briefly had the NCore tour amps in my second system (vintage Tannoy 12" Golds in custom cabinets) and I found that the use of Pi Audio Rev. B buss (Majik Buss) power conditioner made everything a bit more musical without sacrificing any dynamics whatsoever. The Rev. B did no harm unlike numerous conditioners I've used in the past... first power conditioner I've ever really liked... so good I purchased a tricked-out UberBUSS for my main horn system... YMMV...
My $0.02,
Pete
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+1
I always had my amps whether SS or tube directly into the wall. Until I purchased my Uberbuss. Now I have everything plugged into this great piece of gear. In my system, my NCores plugged into the Uber give up no dynamics that I can hear. I am also running a Exasound E20 DAC into Ted_b's passive Bent TAP. The sound is very dynamic and transparent. I am very happy. :thumb:
Regards,
Randy
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In my system, my NCores plugged into the Uber give up no dynamics that I can hear.
+1
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+1
+2. Mine are plugged into the Uber as well.
Best,
Anand.
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I use mine a PS Audio power plant premier. Quieter, blacker background, no downside I can hear. I live in a high RF location. The uberbuss sounds like a great alternative also.
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I have found that my nCores do best without anything between them and the power feed - and that makes sense, considering the current drive capability and common mode rejection ratio of the nc400/smps600 combination. You really don't want to strangle that with inductors, and there is no need for additional filtering either.
Good to know, removes the expectations bias and saves money there. Jibes with what's been said all along. Pretty incredible that an amp can do that, straighten itself out. Mine are straight in and I've never heard the quality fluctuate, ever.
(would love to try a 'buss though, at least on my cdp).
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If anyone remembers, the NC 400 has a pretty effective power inlet filter built into it, which is why some people can use the amp plugged straight into the wall.
Scotty
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I am sure you lost some dynamics with Hammond chokes that are 50ohm... A smaller less effective, lower resistance (http://www.coilcraft.com/comoco.cfm)one might still do a lot of good. I'd be talking about the 10a version.
However there is another thought to have on this... Having my favorite chokes (in the link above) on particularly your other equipment will lower the noise that they NCore amplifiers pickup, even if you don't like the sound of the NCore plugged into one. Furthermore capacitor filtration will add a great deal of tonal smoothness to anything by eliminating substantial amounts of differential mode noise from anything including your own equipment. In this manner I guarantee you'll see benefits. It is all about properly matching chokes, and passively attenuating what can and can not be choked.
Maybe the PS audio plants are better but I wouldn't count on it. They can't offer attenuation of noise from your own components, and I'm skeptical on how much differential noise they can curb. I'd guess the Felicia's being built here on Audiocircle are about equivalent.
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I am sure you lost some dynamics with Hammond chokes that are 50ohm...
50 ohm serial choke on the power line?
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50 ohm serial choke on the power line?
That is one of the chokes the OP talked about, yes. 57ohm to be exact.
I get uncomfortable with chokes approach 1ohm.
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I get uncomfortable with chokes approach 1ohm.
Any technical reason why?
Best,
Anand.
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Any technical reason why?
Best,
Anand.
I use my ears when it comes to power conditioning (no matter how good the technical aspects are). Lower resistance and more headroom (amperage rating) on chokes always seems to sound better and maintain dynamics with amplifiers. I also prefer to use 12ga power cords even for things that use very little power. I guess you could talk about impedance issues, but the ears time and time again repeat the preferred (and purchased) results.
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That is one of the chokes the OP talked about, yes. 57ohm to be exact.
So how can that work? At full power, a SMPS600 supplying one nc400 needs something like 650W. At 110V that means 6A, and even at 230 V that would be almost 3 A. Even driving a piece of iron rail connected between the poles, a 57 ohm inductance/resistance would limit the the current to 2 (or 4, in the case of 230 V) A, leaving nothing for the nCore....
I get uncomfortable with chokes approach 1ohm.
For a good reason.
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I thought I would just add that I recently tried the Ncore's with a Powercell 4SE and the results were not good in my system. The sound was compressed and unfocused.
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do the people plugging it straight into the walls find any difference in having a switch there
i would think that those plugging straight into the wall will find something hindering performance from say a switch.
i am considering removing my switches, wished there was a way to put in a 12v trigger though
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i would think that those plugging straight into the wall will find something hindering performance from say a switch.
Even your typical cheap switch has ample current capability and very low resistance when on. I would be more worried about the wiring to your meter, and between the meter and your nearest distribution transformer...
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Mine are straight into the wall on dedicated outlets with no switches. I tried them through my Belkin PureAV PF60 but that didn't work--squashed all the dynamics and micro-details. My fear now is a lightning storm.... :bomb:
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Mine are straight into the wall on dedicated outlets with no switches. I tried them through my Belkin PureAV PF60 but that didn't work--squashed all the dynamics and micro-details. My fear now is a lightning storm.... :bomb:
do you leave yours plugged in all the time, mine is plugged into a pf31, and thats probably why my sounds are somewhat compressed
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Yes, mine are left plugged in and on all the time. I would try them straight into the wall instead of through the PF31. If its anything like my PF60, it is killing the openness of the Ncore.
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I tried my monoblocks with the Isotek Evo3 Sirius at home.
I could hear no big difference. Maybe slightly less dynamic sound.
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You can get a whole house surge suppressor that mounts in your main electrical box. You may need to have an electrician install it, but they can handle some very large surges.
Ed
Mine are straight into the wall on dedicated outlets with no switches. I tried them through my Belkin PureAV PF60 but that didn't work--squashed all the dynamics and micro-details. My fear now is a lightning storm.... :bomb:
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You can get a whole house surge suppressor that mounts in your main electrical box. You may need to have an electrician install it, but they can handle some very large surges.
Good advice - surge suppressors protect your gear but don't limit the current, as they are parallel rather than serial devices.
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My findings are that the Ncores do not like 'Y' capacitors. They are designed to run as ungrounded Class 2 devices which is OK as long as you have everything proper in your electrical service and circuits. Before you run it without a safety ground test everything to make sure all is good. The 400s sound very good from the wall. They sound even better when connected to power filtration the is low impedance and not current limiting.
Great amps.
Dave
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My findings are that the Ncores do not like 'Y' capacitors.
I agree. Y capacitors create a signal path between the mains live wires and the safety ground. That might or might not be a good idea, depending on the design of your amp. In the case of the fully differential design of the Ncores, and a proper grounding scheme, you are better off without any Y filter.
They are designed to run as ungrounded Class 2 devices which is OK as long as you have everything proper in your electrical service and circuits.
In case you aren't comfortable with the Class 2 requirements, they also seem to be just fine with a safety earthed chassis, as long as the distinction between safety earth and signal ground is understood and maintained.
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oh wow, didn't know they were fully differential as well.
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oh wow, didn't know they were fully differential as well.
Not in the sense of "fully balanced" that there would be 2 separate parts for the positive and negative signal, but in the sense of a fully differential, floating input circuit, so that the signal is not referenced to ground or earth.
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Not in the sense of "fully balanced" that there would be 2 separate parts for the positive and negative signal, but in the sense of a fully differential, floating input circuit, so that the signal is not referenced to ground or earth.
It's going to take me some time to decipher that, but muchly appreciated. Good info.
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I'll add to Uber Buss comments. To date with numerous amps tried not one lost anything. All gained with better dynamics, bass and more info. For us the no brainer of conditioners.
charles
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I'll add to Uber Buss comments. To date with numerous amps tried not one lost anything. All gained with better dynamics, bass and more info. For us the no brainer of conditioners.
charles
I agree. I switched my NC400s from my PS Audio PPP, which was good, to a Pi Audio RevB, which is even better.