AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Omega Speaker Systems => Topic started by: Rischa on 30 Apr 2020, 01:52 am
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I normally run my SAHOs with a 2wpc Decware SE84UFO2, but I recently switched driving duties to a new-to-me 20wpc Torii Jr. Compared to the 2wpc amp, the TJ is a bit shouty(?) at times with the Omegas. That is, there's definitely some magic in the TJ/SAHO combo, but it can also sometimes be, uh, dynamically forward, so to speak.
One option is to try some different tubes, but I was also wondering if 20wpc is maybe just a bit too much for my Omegas.
Appreciate the input.
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20wpc is maybe just a bit too much for my Omegas.
Its not the case as it have volume control.
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There are a few variables at play, but max output is not one of them unless you are playing it at full volume.
Each amp has its own signature tone, dynamics, etc and some have better impedence matching with your speakers than others. And then there are tube choices to consider as well. In other words, there are a lot of variables at play!
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There are a few variables at play, but max output is not one of them unless you are playing it at full volume.
Each amp has its own signature tone, dynamics, etc and some have better impedence matching with your speakers than others. And then there are tube choices to consider as well. In other words, there are a lot of variables at play!
Makes sense. So is shoutiness (apologies for not being able to think of a better adjective) a symptom of impedance mismatch? The Torii Jr has a setting for 4ohm speakers, but maybe Decware is overestimating its abilty to drive a 4ohm speaker? I doubt it, just a thought.
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I run my SAMS with 25 watt Quicksilver Monos. I also have a SE84UFO. The Quicksilver's sound exceptional in my setup. As morganc said, there are a lot of variables at play in system synergy.
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Short answer is no. Roll some tubes, try some reissued KT66 Gold Lion power tubes and a good 7DJ8 input tubes instead of the Russian 6N23P's. This combination should work better for you.
NB
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Short answer is no. Roll some tubes, try some reissued KT66 Gold Lion power tubes and a good 7DJ8 input tubes instead of the Russian 6N23P's. This combination should work better for you.
NB
Thanks, I'll definitely look into those tubes.
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maybe the design of your 2w amp is more pleasing at playing the first watt than your other amp? the majority info out there tells you need more power to cover the dynamic range. i've spent a ton of money trying more powerful amps because it what i'm supposed to do then in the end i find that my 2 watt amps are whats best to me.
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Also, if you haven't already done so, be sure to experiment with lowering the volume controls on your Torii and using more output from your preamp. This definitely affects the sound of amplifier. Additionally, as the manual states, the 6n1p tube will give the warmest sound in your amplifier if you need to tame brightness. I own a ZenTorii II and the choice of tubes greatly affects the end result in that amp. I would expect the same with the Torii Jr. as well. In my Zen Torii, I have found the 6n1p to tame brightness more than the 6n23p.
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There is no such thing as too much power. Sure, one could turn up the volume so loud that you blow your speakers, but even then if you tried to do the same thing with a lower powered amp you would destroy the speakers with clipping.
I know people running 100dB+ speakers with 300 watt solid state amps. They say the transient peaks are faster, more dynamic and cleaner with high power amps.
There is a video from Harbeth where it shows their speakers being driven with amps delivering 800 to 1000 watts. Surprisingly the meters showed peaks of where the amp's output went to over 500 watts.
Generally even when speakers can be driven adequately with 2-3 watt amps, they will sound better with 20-30 watts - given amps of equal quality.
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There is no such thing as too much power. Sure, one could turn up the volume so loud that you blow your speakers, but even then if you tried to do the same thing with a lower powered amp you would destroy the speakers with clipping.
I know people running 100dB+ speakers with 300 watt solid state amps. They say the transient peaks are faster, more dynamic and cleaner with high power amps.
There is a video from Harbeth where it shows their speakers being driven with amps delivering 800 to 1000 watts. Surprisingly the meters showed peaks of where the amp's output went to over 500 watts.
Generally even when speakers can be driven adequately with 2-3 watt amps, they will sound better with 20-30 watts - given amps of equal quality.
Agree with Tom. It is not the power. Something else.
charles
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It’s all about the synergy
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Before buying tubes try repositioning the speakers. Don't point them directly at your sitting position, aim them about 1' outside your ears. This will have the effect of reducing treble response a tad. This is how I listen to my Decware SAHO's.
HK
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Before buying tubes try repositioning the speakers. Don't point them directly at your sitting position, aim them about 1' outside your ears. This will have the effect of reducing treble response a tad. This is how I listen to my Decware SAHO's.
HK
Thanks for the reply. Yes, I have my SAHOs positioned similarly to tame the highs. The shoutiness isn't really a treble issue, it's more like a volume modulation problem, if that makes sense. Sometimes when there's a dynamic peak, the music sounds overly explosive and a little compressed. This is only on some recordings, so it could just be that the little Zen amp is more forgiving and the Torii is letting me hear more flaws in the recording. I admit I'm still getting to know the Torri Jr's quirks.
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I have had success with all types of amps with these speakers. Manley monos, solid state and Musical paradise all sound good. The MP amps are hard to beat for the money and give my manleys a serious run on the omegas.
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Short answer is no. Roll some tubes, try some reissued KT66 Gold Lion power tubes and a good 7DJ8 input tubes instead of the Russian 6N23P's. This combination should work better for you.
NB
Other tubes to try are 6N1P and 6N2P.
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maybe the design of your 2w amp is more pleasing at playing the first watt than your other amp? the majority info out there tells you need more power to cover the dynamic range. i've spent a ton of money trying more powerful amps because it what i'm supposed to do then in the end i find that my 2 watt amps are whats best to me.
Unfortunately the Torii is Push-Pull, not Single Ended as the SE84 or the Rachel EL34. Other unsuited features are Torii use 4 output tubes which have to be matched since there is no Bias adjusting, so when one or more output tubes are not close paired sound quality suffer.
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Other unsuited features are Torii use 4 output tubes which have to be matched since there is no Bias adjusting, so when one or more output tubes are not close paired sound quality suffer.
I don't understand this at all and it keeps me from even considering buying one.
In the owners manual he makes it sound like it is really hard to adjust bias for individual tubes. :scratch:
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The Torri Jr has a single bias pot for all 4 output tubes. From what I understand, the TJ was originally designed to be self biasing (or have a set bias?), but Steve Deckert decided at the last minute to add the bias adjustment. I can't remember the reasoning.
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There is no individual Bias adjusting so it needs 4 matched EL34.
So a second prob is what the Torii owner must do when 1 EL34 die?
a) change only the dead tube and stay with the amp unpaired.
b) change all the 4 tubes to keep the amp matched at higher cost.
c) what to do with 3 used tubes?
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I am using a Linear Tube Audio Ultralinear amp at 20 watts with my Alnico HO towers and it works great.
I used a 100w Class D amp with my previous single driver Super Alnicos. Worked great.
I would contact Decware directly to get accurate information about the tube biasing.
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I would contact Decware directly to get accurate information about the tube biasing.
From the owners manual:
YOU MUST SET BIAS EVERY TIME YOU CHANGE THE OUTPUT TUBES. Output tubes should always be purchased and changed in matched quads ONLY. Do not run matched pairs in the amplifier, only run matched quads. Alternate tubes may be used in this amplifier such as 6L6, KT77, KT66, 7027. All of these tubes however will require considerable adjustment to the bias screw when compared to EL34. !When the amplifier is biased properly, you may turn it off and re-install the input tubes.
BTW, If you’re new to biasing tube amplifiers, you may not realize that many tube amplifiers require you to repeat this process for EACH output tube and will have 4 bias adjustment screws. This might seem cool at first, however once you have the first tube set to where you want it, it changes as you adjust the second tube at which point you’ll have to re-adjust the setting for the first tube, and then re-adjust the second tube again... you get the idea. In the TORII JR, all 4 tubes will bias exactly the same provided you have a matched quad, so setting the bias typically takes under 1 minute.
:shake:
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From the owners manual:
YOU MUST SET BIAS EVERY TIME YOU CHANGE THE OUTPUT TUBES. Output tubes should always be purchased and changed in matched quads ONLY. Do not run matched pairs in the amplifier, only run matched quads. Alternate tubes may be used in this amplifier such as 6L6, KT77, KT66, 7027. All of these tubes however will require considerable adjustment to the bias screw when compared to EL34. !When the amplifier is biased properly, you may turn it off and re-install the input tubes.
BTW, If you’re new to biasing tube amplifiers, you may not realize that many tube amplifiers require you to repeat this process for EACH output tube and will have 4 bias adjustment screws. This might seem cool at first, however once you have the first tube set to where you want it, it changes as you adjust the second tube at which point you’ll have to re-adjust the setting for the first tube, and then re-adjust the second tube again... you get the idea. In the TORII JR, all 4 tubes will bias exactly the same provided you have a matched quad, so setting the bias typically takes under 1 minute.
:shake:
The money waste is clear, if an EL34 dead or go senile, the owner will have to buy another four matched tubes, which may not be easy find four properly matched EL34, mainly NOS tubes.
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Once upon a time, I had a CJ Premiere 11A. Four output tubes all individually biased. Easy as pie. Yes, had to go back to the first one or two done for last tweak after doing the last two. No biggie.
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I think most get a feel for it after a few times of adjusting; never had any problem with the amps that I have owned.
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Decware has finally fixed the Torii JR.
https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1608681355
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Doggie,
The answer to your question is no. I use the more powerful Decware Mystery amp with Omega SAHO XRS speakers. The combination is outstanding.
NB
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Sorry I posted in a 7 month old thread to point out the new improved JR II because there was discussion here of the unfriendly bias design of the original.