[1000a]

I just made some temporary bass traps 54" tall x 18" round and am amazed at the improvement, I have them in the front Rt and Lt corners.

I am wondering sense all the corners in the room both the 3 sided and 2 sided are problems:

What if any benifit would I gain by attaching a 3"x 3" sq. piece of open cel foam running both the lengths and widths of the room.   Would this help to break down some wall to ceiling problems and help with echo, glare, slap back ect??

thanks in advance.

[Ethan Winer]

What if any benifit would I gain by attaching a 3"x 3" sq. piece of open cel foam running both the lengths and widths of the room.   Would this help to break down some wall to ceiling problems and help with echo, glare, slap back ect??

Three inches or three feet? Regardless, unless it's genuine acoustic foam it won't do enough to be worthwhile. Also, the main places to target are the reflection points, which are specific places along the side walls and ceiling.

--Ethan

[1000a]

Thanks Ethan

I am just starting to really dig into the room treatment thing and need to DIY for now.
I have been reading your many fine articles on rooms and was absolutely convinced if a bass wave was 38 feet I definitly needed some form of bass traps, mine are super simple but ugly and are doing wounderful work, I am stunned and convinced the room might as well be considered a componet just as important as others maybe more so, that few people address.

[1000a]

I have addressed floor reflection and will need to further work with my side walls window and curtain one side, just curtain on other side which hides opening of the equal size adjoining other room.

What has not been addressed at all and I have been thing a great deal about is the 1st reflection points on the ceiling.

[gooberdude]

Hey 1000a,

the funny thing is that anyone 'in the know' will certainly tout acoustic treatments as paramount.  I think many folks just don't want to face the reality that these efforts are necessary.   From what I know, acoustic treatments just might be the only part of this hobby that doesn't involve much snake oil, or voodoo.   And, that can improve ANY system in any room.  However, take that statement with a grain of salt considering I use Room Tunes, which are possibly the wiggiest of all treatments since they don't deal with reflection points but rather the pressure in the room.  

If you want a really effective tool for this, contact (gulp) michael green audio to get 2 Echo Pillows.   My room is pretty large and had a terrible clapback problem...the buzz/ringing/bangngngngngn lasted about 1/2 a second after a clap before pinning the 2 pillows up in the proper locations.  now its non-existent.

I'm not sure if they sell these individually, but would probably be $30 total as a guestimate.  8th Nerve also has Response pillows that are a similar shape, but it looks like they are no longer making that proudct line.

Each pillow is about 6" tall x 14" long and they must be installed on adjacent walls, midway down each wall at the wall/ceiling intersection.     Of the 10 pillows that came with my Room Tunes kit, the 2 Echo pillows are the least noticeable visually.

About a month ago i loaned out my kit to a friend, but forgot these pillows.   without any other treatments there was still no clapback...

I'm sure you could make these too, but take Ethan's advice and use the proper material...


matt

[1000a]

yeah the whole foam thing seems mostly an expensive waist of time, I am into the 703 type of panels and regular fiberglass - they really get the work done and do not cost a fortune.

I guess there is some good foam I have seen but expensive and most tell me to just skip it and get down to business w fiberglass, I will call and check prices on the 2 strips, thanks.

[1000a]

I will post pics of my ugly bass traps, that should be according to Risch about 70-80% as effective as his DIY bass traps.  once I have learend from my cheap experiments what works then I will start down the I can make it look alot better path, for now I am completely blown away how import the room is.  many of us are listening to I guess 40% room and maybe 60% source- its certainly the impressioin I am getting IMR so far.

so cheap and ugly is OK until I am done with room 101 and 102 first. 

[PLMONROE]

I guess 40% room and maybe 60% source- its certainly the impressioin I am getting IMR so far.

 

Truly, I would not be surprised that the room sources may even be higher!

Paul

[1000a]

I guess 40% room and maybe 60% source- its certainly the impressioin I am getting IMR so far.

 

Truly, I would not be surprised that the room sources may even be higher!

Paul

Absolutely, I was thinking about my comment shortly after my last post and thinking gee the room might be even a higher percentage.  So it seems allot of us are maybe listening to 30-40% source and 60-70% our listening rooms - that means we are getting half the picture at best.  Like looking at a Van Gogh that had been bleached out by the sun for years robbing the colors of all their depth and intensity, and obviously the soul of the art. 

Many of us are just not acessing the entire experience of the recording, all the while chasing that goal maybe endlessly replacing gear.  I would really like to see the room forum loaded with people.  For me the experience started with hearing the improvements from the room lens, and thinking, "so if that thing did this to the sound- just what the hell will happen with those bass traps and so on."  For me it took hearing some form of room treatment in my room, once that happened I became a convert quickly. Nothing like hands on experience.  I look forward to many more improvements as I go, what a Revelation and an excellent opportunity!

[gooberdude]

that's pretty much how i felt too.   by the time i added room treatments I had already purchased 2 difft amps, 5 difft interconnects (for 3 sources) and a few difft sp cables + gobs of tweaks.     About 10 minutes after installing the pillows everywhere it became apparent that i had been wasting lots of energy & $ on things i didn't need.

moreoever, any & all critical listening up to that point was senseless.     Since installing the kit a year ago i gave up on critical listening altogether, that's really the point which i figured out this hobby could be fun.

[warnerwh]

Congrats on learning maybe the most important thing in setting up a system.  Tweaking/moving treatments is far more effective than swapping cables or electronics. I'm sure you realize now what you've been missing. Wish someone would have shoved it down my throat 25 years ago. A couple more bass traps in corners will indeed help more.  I noticed a significant improvement going from 2 to four.

I'd recommend the fiberglass not only because of price and effectiveness but you can also make it look better. I spent 6-800 on acoustic foam and if I had it to do over again I'd have made large panels of rigid fiberglass that looked nice. Fortunately the acoustics in my room are outstanding. 

The bottom line is that the improvement for money spent is excellent. Also it's a necessity. I can't imagine very many rooms where bass traps and some absorption is necessary and would make a significant improvement.

Your estimate that 40% of the sound we hear is the room is pretty close in my opinion too.  It certainly makes your system sound completely different and for the better too.

[1000a]

thanks warnerwh

I am already thinking in terms of the rear corners, I am thrilled to know they may again add max improvement.  So your feed back is very helpful I will get on with that also.

Gooberdude thanks man

yep this room treatment thing is incredible and lots more improvement to be had in my room.  I was also completely convinced to try bass traps once I read Nick was using them and other treatments with his Room Lens.  So I am guessing even with your room tunes basic pkg you would gain massively with traps also.

I just did the Risch super easy ones for now, bag of insulation about 17" round by 54 high put in the corners and presto (if I decide to do rigid panels I'll just return the unopened bags)  Certanteed Ins unfaced R19 $35.25 a bag, best audio pennies can buy
and it has an (Home Depot) audition period!

for looks I can easily do 1 base on the bottom 1 top base connect with 1x2 fir drop the bag in surround with poly bats, and surround all the sides with burlap. creating a 54" tower that honestly looks like it is part of the stereo gear. cool

[1000a]

  for those pondering do bass traps work?     Just buy the bags wipe em down place in the corners and you'll be down for room treatment DIY or commercal.

if the wife goes waht-the -h are, tell her its a temporay thing, if you love em build or buy the ridged panel stuff.

i did just come home with poly batts and burlap for these 2 traps 30.00 total. what this does:

batts go on the outside of the plastic bag: 1-keeps insulation secure if bag has an openning.  2-hides the shinny bag surface so it does not reflect highs or mids.

burlap 1 layer around that:  1-makes the device more durable, keeps FB well away from the room. 2-absorbs some highs 3- keeps poly batts secure.

burlap is the cheapest most transparent material before expensive stuff and lots of colors.  poly batts are very cheap and better for project than cotton batts which are more expensive (wow better for us and cheaper, that can not be audiofile approved no way)

all this info basicly comes from Jon Risch's website, check it out. what a super guy passing on great info just because.  

[Rob Babcock]

I agree that the room is a tremendously important but criminally overlooked element of most peoples systems.  Right now my listening room is treated pretty well with a dozen 8th Nerve peices, but soon I will be going with some RealTraps.  In my rooms the Adapt panels have been very effective, with subtler improvement obtained from the Responses.  The Adapts are enough better that I'm not surprised that the Response are discontinued- they work too but not as effectively.  The sound I'm getting now with treatments + parametric EQ is very good, but I expect the bass traps will take it to a whole 'nuther level.

DIY is fun and can save you some money.  I always wanted to try the Risch bass tubes but have never got around to it. 

[fajimr]

all this info basicly comes from Jon Risch's website, check it out. what a super guy passing on great info just because.

and don't forget our own Ethan Winer's info- there's a wealth of great stuff in there which I used to DIY my bass and 1st reflection traps
http://www.ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html

nice job 1000a!  they really do make a difference.. now tell all your friends 
jim

[1000a]

Recently I also found reference to this simple no effort bass trap on one of Ethans pages also, thanks guys, cause now I am digging deep into room treatments from the ridiculus improvement a run to Home Depot made.  I have now dubed the ones I bought; "The Acoustic Sausage". 

   Just think how much fun they are:

"Honey could you grab my sausage I think I left it in the wash room, I want to try it behind the couch this time!"
 

[8thnerve]

Hey 1000a,

the funny thing is that anyone 'in the know' will certainly tout acoustic treatments as paramount.  I think many folks just don't want to face the reality that these efforts are necessary.   From what I know, acoustic treatments just might be the only part of this hobby that doesn't involve much snake oil, or voodoo.   And, that can improve ANY system in any room.  However, take that statement with a grain of salt considering I use Room Tunes, which are possibly the wiggiest of all treatments since they don't deal with reflection points but rather the pressure in the room.   

If you want a really effective tool for this, contact (gulp) michael green audio to get 2 Echo Pillows.   My room is pretty large and had a terrible clapback problem...the buzz/ringing/bangngngngngn lasted about 1/2 a second after a clap before pinning the 2 pillows up in the proper locations.  now its non-existent.

I'm not sure if they sell these individually, but would probably be $30 total as a guestimate.  8th Nerve also has Response pillows that are a similar shape, but it looks like they are no longer making that proudct line.

Each pillow is about 6" tall x 14" long and they must be installed on adjacent walls, midway down each wall at the wall/ceiling intersection.     Of the 10 pillows that came with my Room Tunes kit, the 2 Echo pillows are the least noticeable visually.

About a month ago i loaned out my kit to a friend, but forgot these pillows.   without any other treatments there was still no clapback...

I'm sure you could make these too, but take Ethan's advice and use the proper material...


matt

Matt,

We still make the Response line, but are changing factories so they are temporarily unavailable.  I have taken the liberty of improving the products during the hiatus and will be releasing the Response PRO line which is slightly larger and thicker, to increase performance significantly.  They should be shipping in less than two months.

The Seam product acts in the same way as the older Echo product did, but better because there is more surface area.  That is why we discontinued the Echo, because in all cases the Seam was more effective at that placement location.

Best Regards,

Nathan Loyer
Eighth Nerve

[8thnerve]

This is a great thread!  I love it when people realize how important the room is.  From my own experience, I've found that we are listening to 25% source, 25% speakers, and 50% room.

Best,

Nathan Loyer
Eighth Nerve

[gooberdude]

Thanks Nathan,

I've been tempted many times to go with your products over the corner & wall seam pillow system i now have, but after hearing the glowing reviews (and 1sthand experience) of the Adept series (which i can't afford) i've resided to just wait and see and save up.  

Good to hear you're updating the design, no doubt they'll bring more accolades to your product line-up.


matt

[Rob Babcock]

Matt,

We still make the Response line, but are changing factories so they are temporarily unavailable.  I have taken the liberty of improving the products during the hiatus and will be releasing the Response PRO line which is slightly larger and thicker, to increase performance significantly.  They should be shipping in less than two months.

The Seam product acts in the same way as the older Echo product did, but better because there is more surface area.  That is why we discontinued the Echo, because in all cases the Seam was more effective at that placement location.

Best Regards,

Nathan Loyer
Eighth Nerve

That's cool. I mistakenly assume the Response had been discontinued in favor of the Adapts.  I'm glad to see that's not the case.  The Adapts are a superior product but expensive enough that not everyone can afford them.  The Response are a great value and would be a great improvement over bare walls.