Battery powered Two, WOW !

ChrisM · « **Reply #20 on:** 17 Mar 2010, 11:33 pm »

Got lucky, they were fully charged from the factory. Really enjoying my 2 now. I bought it because it could be run on batteries and i wanted to make a system i could take camping ect. With my ipod and some bookshelf speakers i'm totally mobile with good tunes, i love it!!! Sound quality really surprised me.

jules · « **Reply #21 on:** 18 Mar 2010, 01:14 am »

Hi all,

Batteries that are connected in parallel, like [the 2 X 12 in parallel], in series with [another pair in parallel] shown above, can have problems with charging over a period of time. The reason for this being that all batteries are not equal and where one battery of a pair in parallel is "lazy" it will deteriorate faster as the better battery is favoured.

Two larger 12V batteries in series is better from a life/charging point of view than 4X12V in parallel pairs. I don't know how this works out from an audio point of view.

jules

jules · « **Reply #22 on:** 18 Mar 2010, 02:03 am »

Hi zmanastronomy,

I don't want to labour the point here but even if batteries have the same specs, age etc. the problem is that they will never be exactly identical and over time, the difference will magnify so that one of the pair in parallel tends to get bypassed and will fail early. It's possible to give the weak batteries a boost on their own every now and then but it makes for fiddly maintenance.

This is not a problem for batteries in series.

Great project

jules

cynan · « **Reply #23 on:** 18 Mar 2010, 03:41 am »

Quote from: jules on 18 Mar 2010, 01:14 am

Hi all,

Batteries that are connected in parallel, like [the 2 X 12 in parallel], in series with [another pair in parallel] shown above, can have problems with charging over a period of time. The reason for this being that all batteries are not equal and where one battery of a pair in parallel is "lazy" it will deteriorate faster as the better battery is favoured.

Two larger 12V batteries in series is better from a life/charging point of view than 4X12V in parallel pairs. I don't know how this works out from an audio point of view.

jules

With really low current chargers (< 2A), is it realistic to expect significant voltage imbalance with 4 batteries (versus more) in-parrallel/series? Furthermore, these batteries will not be deep-cycled. I would think that if the batteries were in the same condition to start with, then uneven battery wear should be minimal, at least for a long while.

brother love · « **Reply #24 on:** 18 Mar 2010, 02:22 pm »

zmanastronomy,

Not sure reasons for your post just now (who do you think might have been offended?); but your economical 2 battery set-up has received enthusiastic response IMO. Thanks for sharing!

I'm leaning towards a hybrid arrangement w/ your (2) battery config & the better Soneil smart charger offered thru GR Research.

BTW, Danny Ritchie's Virtue t-amp, battery hook-up discussion can be found here:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=68341.0

neutralos · « **Reply #25 on:** 18 Mar 2010, 03:05 pm »

Regarding the benefits these little amps draw from a better power supply I wouldn´t go up to do handicrafts by myself. Though the electrical design is not so complex I would buy a well thought out system like the GR set for 199 $. No calculations - no problems. Buy and enjoy it. What does it matter if I save 100 $ or not regarding a soundquality advancement over 500 $ ?

I myself choosed another solution for PS ... and god damn it worked incredible good. But this is another story ... Best wishes to Mr. Krinsky

JLM · « **Reply #26 on:** 18 Mar 2010, 04:20 pm »

I had a battery powered Tripath amp that sounded pretty good for just 6 watts in a tiny box, but it was underpowered for the speakers (my babies). I also had a battery powered and modded Squeeze Box that had a direct A/C to battery switch, but could never hear a difference between A/C and battery. My speakers are good, but my A/C is very good (underground feed to my own transformer, all 12 gauge wiring, all 20 amp circuits, all new appliances, dedicated circuits to each audio receptacle that are cryo'd hospital grade, single dedicated grounding for the audio circuits).

I've heard the difference between clean and abberated power. Just saying that the battery advantages only apply where you have power abberations. Glad it works for all of you.

cynan · « **Reply #27 on:** 18 Mar 2010, 05:08 pm »

Quote from: brother love on 18 Mar 2010, 02:22 pm

I'm leaning towards a hybrid arrangement w/ your (2) battery config & the better Soneil smart charger offered thru GR Research.

I decided to try a middle ground. I ordered a switching power supply battery charger from Powerstream.com from the list that Seth referenced to on the first page of this thread. The GR research kit charger (Soneil) is also designed with a switching power supply, from what I udnerstand, so maybe the Powerstream version will deliver similar advantages when left connected to the circuit. Or perhaps not. Perhaps the Soneil switching PSU is better. Kind of a gamble I guess. Also the Powerstream supposedly comes with alligator clips, so no splicing or soldering connections required.

This is the charger I bought: http://www.powerstream.com/3PX0-24.htm

I call it "middle ground" in reference to price. Zman's ebay charger costs about $20 with shipping, the Soneil charger can be found for around $50-$80 (price seems to vary quite a bit and seems a bit difficult to source retail), and the Powerstream is in between at about $38 with shipping.

Only thing left to decide is the batteries. My choices are 18Ah or 7Ah batteries. Just trying to decide whether I should get 2 of the 18Ah, 4 of the 7Ah, or whether 2 of the 7Ah will be sufficient.

cynan · « **Reply #28 on:** 18 Mar 2010, 05:28 pm »

I would have gone with the Soneil if I could have found it for around $50 or less as this is what is used with the GR Research kit. I suppose there is a good chance that the Powerstream charger I bought will perform no better than zman's ebay charger. Oh well, at least the Powerstream comes with alligator clips.

Depending on battery choices, the entire kit should cost me between $80 and $125. We'll see if it was worth it. For that money, I could put together one of the Antek kits. Maybe I'll have to get one of those as well to compare

Anyone care to speculate why the GR Research went with 4 batteries instead of 2?

virtue · « **Reply #29 on:** 18 Mar 2010, 05:49 pm »

I think it's important to note that the switching PSUs themselves add their own noise. At RMAF last year, Danny Richie had a bunch of line conditioners running and still, the difference on his 97db V1s between the switching and batteries, was just unreal. Bottom line is that if your speakers are 90db sensitive or greater, you will see more benefit from a battery supply vs. switching.

With most of the speakers in our room (<90db)... I personally preferred the switching supply. It seemed more "open and airy" as James points out and the switching noise... it was just too faint to be annoying.

It's great to see folks on this forum enabling the low-cost battery option. For others, the PITA aspect makes it prohibitive, DIY or not. Limiting your listening to a certain number of hours per day, manually disengaging the recharger, timing circuits, assembly, etc. The RWA Black Lightening reduces the hassle substantially.

Me... I'll probably remain a switching guy. My speakers aren't so sensitive and Melissa is already freaking out as my battery science projects proliferate in the living room. Our house-hold is a good candidate for a traditional supply, for the practicality (gasp).

And then there are some folks who have very clean power who swear by linear regulated. My Sensation customer (and commentator here) Zach has owned RWA amps and compared them all, and the Astron regulated linear is his supply of choice. Perhaps Nick (Nuuk) has the same feeling.

dvenardos · « **Reply #30 on:** 18 Mar 2010, 06:49 pm »

I frequently get, "Dad, you made a mess of the dining room table again!" from my daughter.

Quote from: virtue on 18 Mar 2010, 05:49 pm

Me... I'll probably remain a switching guy. My speakers aren't so sensitive and Melissa is already freaking out as my battery science projects proliferate in the living room. Our house-hold is a good candidate for a traditional supply, for the practicality (gasp).

cynan · « **Reply #31 on:** 18 Mar 2010, 07:33 pm »

My reason for choosing batteries is just to play around with a cheap-as-possible alternative to the 130W switching supply I bought with my TWO.

I have to confess, I mainly listen through 86-89 db/1w/m sensitivity speakers, so I will likely not benefit from the "quietness" of the batteries (I have never heard any switching noise with the 130W supply).

From the above comment, the Astron linear supply seems the best bet for the money, however, it is difficult to source where I live (Toronto) and it seems like it would be well over $200 if I were to try and order one by the time I paid shipping charges, etc. So I thought I would start by playing with a cheap battery setup first. Who knows? maybe I'll end up with higher sensitivity speakers down the road...

And, just to open yet another PSU can of worms, what do people think about this switching PSU? It's 8A, 30V and sells for < $50. Promising?

http://www.circuitspecialists.com/prod.itml/icOid/9624

virtue · « **Reply #32 on:** 18 Mar 2010, 08:32 pm »

Nicely priced switcher! I'm going to bow out of the battery vs. linear vs. switching. There are many variables that make every system respond and sound different.

cynan · « **Reply #33 on:** 18 Mar 2010, 09:11 pm »

Quote from: virtue on 18 Mar 2010, 08:32 pm

I'm going to bow out of the battery vs. linear vs. switching.

Or at least come back to it after you have seen to getting those beautiful looking Sensations out the door. In fact, what are you doing lolly-gagging with customers in this forum? I want my new toy shipped ASAP! Chop Chop!

cynan · « **Reply #34 on:** 19 Mar 2010, 06:05 pm »

There seems to be a method to Danny's madness for selecting 4 smaller batteries instead of 2 larger ones for the GR Research kit. Adding the parallel circuit serves to reduce the resistance of the overal cricuit, effectively lowering the internal resistance of the batteries in series.

However, looking at battery specs, larger batteries seem to have lower internal resistance (this makes sense because they would contain more cells in parallel)...

In the end I wonder if the trade off between going with 4 batteries instead of 2 for internal resistance purposes really matters. Perhaps Danny just did this so that everything would fit in a more compact space - or maybe he just got a good deal on 5Ah batteries?

dvenardos · « **Reply #35 on:** 19 Mar 2010, 06:20 pm »

It is my understanding that Gary Dodd put together the GR battery kit and Danny is just passing the orders on over to Gary (without taking a cut). Gary, of course, has lots of experience with batteries.

MikeFlaherty · « **Reply #36 on:** 19 Mar 2010, 06:41 pm »

Big grins... running the new TWO with the Astron, dead silient on my AN/E HE's (I think these are around 96db...) I'm running my DAC off a car battery... I'll probably try running the amp with a battery set up when I get a chance to do it. Everything working perfectly right outta da box. Best wishes, Seth, GREAT PRODUCT! Mike in Seattle

MikeFlaherty · « **Reply #37 on:** 20 Mar 2010, 03:38 pm »

Zman, same to ya!

So here's my first testament... I listened to music alll day yesterday, some at the altar, some just via the sound that filled my house. I had been running a Sam Kim el84 based amp... the sound out of which is achingly beautiful. The Virtue, different attributes--- really coherent and with great definition from top to bottom, excellent control of bass (something my 7 watt tube amp was a bit challenged at), surprisingly to me... the V2 don't solid state at all... it almost has the best attributes of SS and tubes... so some of yesterday I spent listening to "modern classical".. the gentle sweet stuff I normally listen to that sounds so good via my EL84 gear... but I got totally... gobsmacked listening too more dubsteppy bass content zippy lectronicy stuff too... the V2 did the gentle stuff slightly different than my tube gear, but it did the dynamic stuff sooo much better... Another surprise... I could get plenty of volume with my tube amp with the vol at 9 oclock... my speakers are supposedly 98db efficient... but after 9'oclock, my system would start to struggle... I was a little worried that the V2 powerhouse might be a bit much for my speakers but nope. I can dial to 12 get the same volume, but it's cleaner so I can go a bit louder but with more dynamics! Ha ha, now I'm just laughing at the whole thing... I paid more for a pair of preamp tubes than I did for my entire V2/Astron setup! GET OUT! None of my friends will believe this. Anyway.... I have no reason to tweak the V2, but of course, I will... Batteries, Attenuator, Cords etc... just for the fun of it. Will keep you posted.

virtue · « **Reply #38 on:** 21 Mar 2010, 07:24 am »

Mike -

Love what you've got going there! Love it even more if you buried that Astron under the plank.

Big hugs and thanks for posting pics and listening impressions!

Seth

MikeFlaherty · « **Reply #39 on:** 21 Mar 2010, 06:07 pm »

Seth.. I love the look of that massive Darth Vader PS... I'll add a "DANGER HIGH VOLTAGE" sticker and it will be perfek.