Break-In Question

hammergjh · « **Reply #20 on:** 12 Feb 2003, 05:50 pm »

Quote from: eico1

no i'm suggesting the opposite, that that is the correct max output I'd like to see. Since that pre has a tuner built in there could be some high freq tuner hash leeking into your audio path. The Hafler rolls off the input at about 200kHz, maybe the other amps run wide open which would explain your experience nicely:) Try the cd player direct to amp if it have a volume controlled output.

steve

Steve,
That is a great suggestion. My Denon does have a variable output. I'll do that this evening and report my observations. Question: if the sound improves w/o the preamp in the set up, can we assume that preamp is at a fault, either from clipping prematurely or from sound leakage from another source, the tuner? Since the preamp has the tuner built in, it can't be disconected. Hmm...

Thanks again.

hammergjh · « **Reply #21 on:** 13 Feb 2003, 03:36 pm »

Hi All,
Update on my testing last night. I switched out my preamp and hooked the Denon CDP directly into the Odyssey. I put in Nora Jones' "Come Away with Me" and played track 4, "Feelin' the Same Way". This is a well recorded CD with lots of definition. The CDP output control is somewhat limited, however. There are 12 attenuation steps and at its lowest setting it's still quite loud. Thankfully my wife was out for a couple of hours or I never would have gotten away w/ playing the stereo that loud for that long.

Anyway...I only noticed subtle differences between playing the CDP directly into the amp and then running it thru the B&K preamp. There were some sonic improvements, but they were slight. Slightly better definition and imaging w/ the direct CDP input. Overall the sound was approximatly the same. Hmmm....

I'm now thinking that the CDP might be the weak link here. The Denon is touted to be the least expensive player on the market that offers HDCD decoding. That may be. At only 300 bucks retail, how good can it be?

Upgrade...upgrade...what's a budding audiophile to do?

W.C. · « **Reply #22 on:** 14 Feb 2003, 06:30 am »

hammergjh,
Hi, I was wondering what the room that your system is in is like? Do you have thick carpeting, lots of furniture, etc? Do you think that the room could be the culprit? Just curious.

hammergjh · « **Reply #23 on:** 14 Feb 2003, 02:22 pm »

I don't think the room is an issue here. It might be considered somewhat "live", but not overly so. I have never noticed an undo echoing effect before, or now, for that matter. I've got some uphostered furniture plus an area rug over a hardwood floor. Plus some vertical blinds along one wall. Not a dead room, certainly.

I'll A/B the Hafler and Stratos again this weekend. At that point the Stratos will be 3 weeks old and almost constantly running and always powered on. We'll see how the young upstart fares against the old bastard.

W.C. · « **Reply #24 on:** 14 Feb 2003, 07:17 pm »

It could be alot of little things adding up. That's my guess. I went to audioreview.com and read some of the reviews on the Dennon cd player and the Van den Hul I/C's. Amoung the reviews for both, some complained of harsh and bright sound. along with the room, these components may be a bad match. A cd player that would be a good match (IMO) would be a Cal Labs. For I/C's, Groneburg Quatro Ref (Odyssey) or cables from Bolder Cables. Maybe you might have a friend or two that would temp loan you something to try that is a little on the warm side and more musical. That's probably why some people prefer a tubed preamp. The room might be a little lively and it's easier than treating the room. My speakers are Kappa 9's and the emit tweeters can be on the bright side if matched with the wrong components. Nothing forward or bright sounding at all.

hammergjh · « **Reply #25 on:** 14 Feb 2003, 09:49 pm »

Hi all,
I just want to clarify something. The Van den Hul IC's aren't in my system yet. Should arrive by tomorrow. I'll check them out then. I'm using the Monster IC's currently.

Thanks again for posting.

Gregg

jackman · « **Reply #26 on:** 15 Feb 2003, 12:07 am »

Quote

Anyway...I only noticed subtle differences between playing the CDP directly into the amp and then running it thru the B&K preamp. There were some sonic improvements, but they were slight. Slightly better definition and imaging w/ the direct CDP input. Overall the sound was approximatly the same. Hmmm....

I'm now thinking that the CDP might be the weak link here. The Denon is touted to be the least expensive player on the market that offers HDCD decoding. That may be. At only 300 bucks retail, how good can it be?

While the Denon may be the weak link in your system, you are using the same CDP during both tests and it seems to sound okay to you through the Hafler. You have already ruled out the preamp as a possible variable. Could it be that the Hafler just sounds better to you? IMO, this doesn't necessarily mean that there is a problem in your system. If you posted the opposite reaction (that the Stratos sounded better than the Hafler) I don't think anyone on this forum would have suggested that you had a problem with your preamp or your CDP.

Although I have never heard the Hafler amp, I seem to recall that they made some pretty good amps in their time. Sonic preference is highly subjective, you may have a predisposition to a certain kind of sound. The Denon may not be Wadia but it's not bad and your system seems to be (IMO) good enough to make a determination between amps. If you were playing the stuff through a Zenith DVD player and some B*ze speakers...that would be a different story. Anything is possible.

Jman

Beezer · « **Reply #27 on:** 15 Feb 2003, 01:08 am »

The characteristics you've described are atypical for the Stratos. It sounds to me like neither the B&K or the CDP are capable of driving the Odyssey. If I were you, I'd try a different preamp, ideally one that is higher quality and has a lower output sensitivity than the B&K. Audition one from a local shop or borrow one from a buddy and do some testing.

Also, have you called Klaus? What does he have to say?

Beez

MaxCast · « **Reply #28 on:** 15 Feb 2003, 04:13 am »

Nine days ago Kaus said he'd call you. What was his suggestion?

hammergjh · « **Reply #29 on:** 15 Feb 2003, 07:05 pm »

Hi everyone,
Thanks for taking an interest in this. I'm enjoying the discourse.
1) Klaus's initial response was to check the voltage coming from the outlet, which I did w/ a voltmeter. The reading was 120.8 volts approximately. I believe that this is fine. He offered to set up the amp differently or send a new one if problems persist. So kudos to him for that. I don't believe, as he did initially, that the voltage in the house circuit is an issue.
2) Well, the VDH IC's came today. Man, what a difference. Things are definitely coming together. These IC's are very well made, well shielded, look good (bright yellow, anyone) and have a slew of high tech innovative features. Check out their website. Definite sonic improvement over the Monster IC's. So I'm happy. My wife went out for awhile this morning so I was able to really stress out my system to high volumes. Put on "Romantic Warrior" again. Sounded better overall. Less glaring, more detail and better, lower bass response and clearer highs. No shit. The IC's made a big difference. The bass did loose focus at very high volumes, but backing off the bass level a couple of Db's helped alot. So much for preamps w/o tone controls. At moderate to lower volumes, I believe that more sound is coming thru as well. Anyway, I had to stop listening after awhile because I was frying my ears, plus I'm a little hung over.

So problem solved? Naw, just progress. My system's front end, cdp & pre, aren't in the same league as the back end, amp and speakers, IMO. They're not bad, though. So, this process is a progression towards a top notch audiophile quality stereo system. Finding the right components that sound good together and sound good to me.

I've considered modding the Hafler. AVA will do it for less money than the Odyssey costs. But, no return guarantee. They can't un-mod it once it's completed. I'm intrigued, though. I'm sure I can sell one or the other once I've done a head-to-head comparison. Not sure what to do. I'd like to demo another pre and cpd to check that theory out. We'll see...

Thanks to everyone who's posted and provided suggestions and feedback.

To be continued....

speedcenter · « **Reply #30 on:** 15 Feb 2003, 07:49 pm »

Quote from: hammergjh

2) Well, the VDH IC's came today.
Definite sonic improvement over the Monster IC's.

there are few wires that aren't a definite improvement over Monster IC's

what kind of speaker wires do you have? are they short? above the carpet, unterminated or plugged into no-name bananas? You won't believe how much you can improve once you tackle that stretch of wires.

as for your CD playe rnot being top notch - have you vibration-isolated it? Place it on a 12" bicycle inner-dube, put a gallon sized zip lock with sand on top of it and give that a try. Not the best method to isolate the unit, but easy to do and cheap. You may be surprised how much music can come out of a basic CD player once it doesn't rattle with the music

Peter

Rocket · « **Reply #31 on:** 15 Feb 2003, 07:55 pm »

hello,

i don't know anything about b&k products but i can comment on your denon cdp. i had a denon cdp and they are fine for the price but definitely not audiophile. what you will find is the music doesn't really give you a 3 dimensional image and the top end is a bit rough. you should either buy a dac or have a clock mod done which will improve things considerably.

i had a g&d clock installed in the denon which made the system sound more musical. the denon gave out about 2 years ago and i bought a pioneer pds507 and i swapped the g&d clock from the denon to the new played. again a much better improvement. last year i bought the perpetual technologies p3a (stock) which has improved the sound to a higher level. i use the pioneer as a transport.

if you had a big improvement with a new cable wait till you upgrade your front end. jmho.

regards

rod

wreilly · « **Reply #32 on:** 15 Feb 2003, 08:09 pm »

hammergjh,

I believe you may be overdriving the Klipsh SB1 and B&W with the Odyssey.

Here is my thinking:

The DH-200 is a 100 W @ 8 Ohm amp the Odyssey is 180 W @ 8 Ohms (for the DM, 150 for the Stereo ).

For the speakers:
The Klipsch SB 1 has the following specs:
SENSITIVITY: 92dB @ 1watt/1meter
POWER HANDLING: 75 watts maximum continuous (300 watts peak)
NOMINAL IMPEDANCE: 8 ohms

The B& W:
Nominal Impedance 8 ohms (minimum 3.0 ohms)
Power Handling 50 - 200W into 8 ohms on unclipped programme

It is very obvious that the Odyssey will have no trouble overdriving the Klipsh and making them sounds awful, harsh would be a good word.
The DH200 may never approach this sound level while the Odyssey will have no problem.

For the B&W, with the DH200 you are only able to drive them to about their mid range power handling, how ever with the Odyssey you will be right at the limit. You could Easily be over driving them too, there are a lot of variables here.

In short I do not think it is the amplifier, it’s the speakers.

Anyone else have any thoughts?

Kind Regards,
Bill

rosconey · « **Reply #33 on:** 15 Feb 2003, 09:26 pm »

i can atest to the interconect issue-i just swapped to zu oxyfuel(ebay steal) from rat shack(yeh yeh i know

)made a big diff with my monos ex, but since they were smaller my speaker cables were too short(about 6 ")so i went to home depot for 12 ga speaker wire this a.m., the stuff was very stiff and ugly. i got some 14ga power cord for power tools instead till i can afford some good wire .
i didnt have any spades or plugs so i went bare necked,

the new stuff shows more detail and has heavier bass.i used to have a little noise from the tweeter when i used the mute-now none untill your ear touches the tweeter and you strain to listen.
my old speaker wire was a twisted one with tin covered copper, the new stuff is twisted also but no covering on the copper-i wonder if this is what i hear or didnt hear

these are short runs also-7ft and 4 ft-yup i didnt even make them the same size

rosconey · « **Reply #34 on:** 15 Feb 2003, 09:45 pm »

damn my dog just started barking when waiting for the worms(the wall) started,this dog never barks when people knock on the door,she was looking at my chair barking with her hair up.had to put her out

i guess the new cables and wires work

wreilly · « **Reply #35 on:** 16 Feb 2003, 03:16 pm »

hammergjh,

Just something else to check.

If you have a volt meter check the DC voltage on the speaker terminals.

If it is > say 1 Volt then there could be a problem with the Odyssey amp.

Ideally this value would be zero, Klaus has it specified at < 1mv.

On the other hand if there is a large DC voltage you should hear a loud "CRACK" when you turn on the amp.

Just a thought.
Regards,
Bill

hammergjh · « **Reply #36 on:** 17 Feb 2003, 04:29 pm »

Howdy,
I just modded my profile to avoid some confusion.

My main system has the Stratos pushing the B&W's, not the Klipsch's. Sorry for any confusion.

Here are my speaker wires. Nothing fancy. I had terminated them in gold plated banana plugs awhile ago because my Hafler and my old Polk 10's couldn't handle the 12 gage wire. If you look closely, you will notice that the wire isn't copper colored. Don't know what it's made of, really. This is all they had at Tweeter at the time w/o going into big bucks.
http://www.monstercable.com/caraudio1/productPageCar.asp?pin=1343

I tried getting a DC voltage reading on my speaker terminals. The readings were all over the scale. Then I tried taking an AC voltage reading, and that was more consistant. Depending upon the volume, I was getting more consistant readings. So, I'm not sure what to make of that.

I have thought of isolating my CDP using a plate of 1/2" lexan and some vibrapods. I just haven't made the plunge. Not that expensive, really. My mom works at an idustrial supply house. I can buy a 4'x8' sheet of 1/2" lexan for 135 bucks. Way more than I need. Unless they have some odd pieces laying around. I told my wife about this plan and she looked at me funny. "You're nuts", she said.

I had also thought of adding a DAC. We'll see.

My wife is giving me some hard stares lately everytime I mention upgrading another component. "What about what I want?" she asks.

Jeez.

BlackCat · « **Reply #37 on:** 17 Feb 2003, 05:00 pm »

I'd get rid of that speaker wire right away. You'll notice more of the same things you noticed when you switched your IC's. I'm a big fan of Nordost, but they are so pricey you have to be drunk to actually get up the nerve to buy a set. Check on Audiogon for used sets, the relatively inexpensive Nordost Solar Winds have gotten good reviews.

Another tube stage CDP you might look at is the Ah! Njoe Tjoeb (strangely pronounced New Tube). I forget the US distributor, but do a google search on the name and it will come up. These things start about $500 US and are very tweakable by the user, including a 96K upsampling kit you can put in. Plus, you get to play with all kinds of 1960's tubes to get the sound you like.

wreilly · « **Reply #38 on:** 17 Feb 2003, 05:24 pm »

Quote from: hammergjh

Howdy,
I just modded my profile to avoid some confusion.

You wrote:
My main system has the Stratos pushing the B&W's, not the Klipsch's. Sorry for any confusion.

You could still be over driving the B&W they are only rated @ 200 W, with a 3 ohm low limit. The 150w Stratos could easly pass this, at very loud voulums with a demanding sound track.

You wrote:

I tried getting a DC voltage reading on my speaker terminals. The readings were all over the scale. Then I tried taking an AC voltage reading, and that was more consistant. Depending upon the volume, I was getting more consistant readings. So, I'm not sure what to make of that.

Sorry for the confusion, the DC measurment was to be done without any signal to the speaker. Also turn the volume up, as you do this. Idealy the DC offset at the speaker terminal s should be zero. If there is ANY DC component at the speakes without any signal I would talk to Klaus ASAP.

Regards,
Bill

BWentler · « **Reply #39 on:** 17 Feb 2003, 05:26 pm »

Quote

Another tube stage CDP you might look at is the Ah! Njoe Tjoeb (strangely pronounced New Tube). I forget the US distributor, but do a google search on the name and it will come up.

Upscale Audio

http://www.upscaleaudio.com/

They are the USA dealer for Ah! stuff. I have purchased tubes from Kevin in the past and he is great to deal with!!!!