[Early B.]

You don't need to wait for a speaker company to offer crossover upgrades. It's fairly simple to do on your own.

[Downtheline]

I see that it looks pretty simple, but for those of us that have never done this, plus don't want to ruin a several thousand dollar investment,  experimenting is a tough sell.

I have tried my hand at diy streamers, and made 2 nice ones based on a detailed diy post that was posted to audiophilestyle.  I also completed a dc cable diy based on a step by step post on audiophilestyle.

If you want to post something like that with photos, a purchasing list and explanation of the reasoning behind each decision, you would have some grateful members here.

[Mr. Big]

I see that it looks pretty simple, but for those of us that have never done this, plus don't want to ruin a several thousand dollar investment,  experimenting is a tough sell.

I have tried my hand at diy streamers, and made 2 nice ones based on a detailed diy post that was posted to audiophilestyle.  I also completed a dc cable diy based on a step by step post on audiophilestyle.

If you want to post something like that with photos, a purchasing list and explanation of the reasoning behind each decision, you would have some grateful members here.

If you're going to do a crossover upgrade get info from the designer, he knows where the crossover points should be plus different parts can and will mess up the balance of its sound for instance if you have resistors in the circuit design to work with what comes after and you put in say a dale metal film which would be a better part then all you have is more high frequency being passed through where the design after that were designed for say carbon film the end result would be overly bright sound. It is more complicated than just using better parts, yes, you can change the sound with any mod, and the result is a crap shoot if you like it. Call Spatial and pay them to build 2 new crossovers and then send them to you and offer to send the old ones back, They may be willing to do that, or they might say leave well enough alone if you enjoy what you currently have. I worked for Sony, and I can tell you the voice a product was about the circuit design and the parts chosen they have to work as one.

[Woodsage]

Additionally a factory crossover upgrade will most likely increase the speaker’s resale value. A home brew (regardless of the parts and expertise of the speaker owner) will most likely decrease the resale value or leave it more or less the same.

I’ve been trading for forty years and it’s hard to get more than a given piece’s resale value regardless of the expensive coupling caps, crossover parts or tube upgrades. Kind of like a three bedroom, two bath house in any given area. They are pretty much worth what they are worth. Of course many are not concerned too much with resale value.

There has been plenty of times I’ve tried to sell an amp with $400 worth of upgraded coupling caps for $50.00 more than the going rate. No bites. Pull out the caps and mark it down 50 bucks and it’s gone in a day.

As far as $20K mono-blocks; seems a small market with lots of competition at that price point. So maybe it won’t distract too much from the building and selling of fairly affordable speakers. Time will tell and I wish the new owners of Spatial well.

[Downtheline]

I agree and would like a factory offering, was just responding to the suggestion a spatial audio speaker owner should experiment with crossovers because of the easiness of doing so.

[Mr. Big]

Additionally a factory crossover upgrade will most likely increase the speaker’s resale value. A home brew (regardless of the parts and expertise of the speaker owner) will most like decrease the resale value or leave it more or less the same.

I’ve been trading for forty years and it’s hard to get more than a given piece’s resale value regardless of the expensive coupling caps, crossover parts or tube upgrades. Kind of like a three bedroom, two bath house in any given area. They are pretty much worth what they are worth. Of course many are not concerned too much with resale value.

There has been plenty of times I’ve tried to sell an amp with $400 worth of upgraded coupling caps for $50.00 more than the going rate. No bites. Pull out the caps and mark it down 50 bucks and it’s gone in a day.

As far as $20K mono-blocks; seems a small market with lots of competition at that price point. So maybe it won’t distract too much from the building and selling fairly affordable speakers. Time will tell and I wish the new
 owners of Spatial well.

Years and years ago, I tried a mod of my preamp, when I received it back and played it and even after 2 weeks it sounded like a receiver would or preamp if you turned the treble control up, and the bass control downward. The business that offered the mod said Well we took the mid-bass hump away, something I heard from other modders over the years, more cleaner detail sound. That it was, my dealer would not even take it on trade, and gave me some good advice, do you think someone who did this modification would know more about the design than Audio Research? Krell or Mark Levinson.? You brought this unit from us because you like its sound, no you don't, lesson learned he said. Had to sell it at a huge loss. I never buy a modified product because you have no idea if you like it or not.

As far as messing with the crossover, I guy came by my house who owns the Sapphires M3 said he had a good way of improving the sound, and went into the crossover and added Mudolf caps the best ones made, closed up the crossover and we played the speakers they sound like elevated highs, and forward, he said give it a few weeks I did, he came back and took them out and hook up what was in there before, balance was back. I never wrote about this because I saw no need it was something I tried. Again, much better parts for sure, but it screwed up the balance of the speaker, the guy must like that sound though, but hey that is on him if he does. If I heard my speakers sound like that if I went to his house to buy them from him and would not have done so, never heard a speaker sound so out of balance in my life.

[El Tio]

Mr Big, I have always wanted to know what is in the crossover of my M3's but haven't brought myself to open it up to see. Apparently you have. My understanding is there are two inductors and one cap? What did you see when you went inside? (type/manufacturer/mounting/etc.).  Pictures if you have them would be awesome.

[Mr. Big]

Mr Big, I have always wanted to know what is in the crossover of my M3's but haven't brought myself to open it up to see. Apparently you have. My understanding is there are two inductors and one cap? What did you see when you went inside? (type/manufacturer/mounting/etc.).  Pictures if you have them would be awesome.

I never took pictures, I looked inside when the guy had the crossover box open, but I really did not look long enough to remember.

[Early B.]

You can expect the markup to be pretty steep for factory crossover upgrades. The premium parts aren't cheap and they need to be stocked (requires a substantial up-front cost), larger enclosures may need to be custom-built, then there are assembly costs, marketing, packaging, etc. Then the manufacturer has to rely on the owner to remove/bypass the existing crossover and replace it with the new one (soldering is required). That's risky for the manufacturer, plus the time required on customer service calls to walk some buyers through the process. Offering upgraded crossovers may not be a good business decision unless they could generate a sizeable ROI, so a 4-figure sales price per pair would not be unrealistic. And you can forget about recouping your money on the resale.
     

[Mr. Big]

You can expect the markup to be pretty steep for factory crossover upgrades. The premium parts aren't cheap and they need to be stocked (requires a substantial up-front cost), larger enclosures may need to be custom-built, then there are assembly costs, marketing, packaging, etc. Then the manufacturer has to rely on the owner to remove/bypass the existing crossover and replace it with the new one (soldering is required). That's risky for the manufacturer, plus the time required on customer service calls to walk some buyers through the process. Offering upgraded crossovers may not be a good business decision unless they could generate a sizeable ROI, so a 4-figure sales price per pair would not be unrealistic. And you can forget about recouping your money on the resale.
   

They could easy do it in an exchange program where customers send in their old crossover boxes they charge for a new box with crossover and send that out customer receives screws it back into the speakers reconnects and ready to enjoy. We did that with car audio repairs while I was at Sony, one day turnaround time with the customer receiving a working unit within a few days. We had stock ready to go. One in and one out, the one in got repaired tested and put back into stock for outbound. All fords, Chryslers, and others used Sony car radio with their name on it but they were Sony.

The do owe the customers replacement for the M100 tweeter if it goes bad, so they would have to use the current tweeter. So, they could make money both ways while taking care of their many customers which they have a legal and customer service obligation to do.

[Jaytor]

Many (most?) of the premium quality capacitors and inductors used for high-end passive crossovers are larger (sometimes significantly) than the more economical parts often used for base-level speakers. I don't know which parts Spatial is using, but I expect upgraded parts that are enough better than the stock parts to make a worthwhile upgrade are not going to fit in the same space, and will require an external box.

So in addition to the electronic components themselves, the vendor has to supply a box and additional cables and connectors, and these have to be high enough quality to not detract from the base speaker.

Just as an example, Alsyvox offers external crossover upgrades for some of their line. Their speakers are dipole planar-magnetic speakers similar in concept to Magnepans, but a couple steps up in quality (both sound quality and finish) and price. The external crossover upgrade for their Botticelli model retails for $29,400. You might think this is ludicrous, but when you add up the cost of the components, high quality box, connectors, cables, assembly, shipping, etc., it is not an unrealistic markup.

For a more modestly priced speaker system like the Spatials, the "upgrade" parts probably do not have to be as high-end in order to make a difference, but the price ratio (Alsyvox's upgrade crossover is approximately 30% of the base speaker price) is not at all unrealistic and may even be on the low side for speakers like the Spatials (which offer excellent performance for the price already).

[Early B.]

For a more modestly priced speaker system like the Spatials, the "upgrade" parts probably do not have to be as high-end in order to make a difference, but the price ratio (Alsyvox's upgrade crossover is approximately 30% of the base speaker price) is not at all unrealistic and may even be on the low side for speakers like the Spatials (which offer excellent performance for the price already).

Yeah -- and to put it more bluntly -- a good crossover upgrade probably won't be cost-effective, either for the manufacturer or the buyer, and the minor improvement in sound quality won't justify the high cost. It's an unrealistic expectation. My speakers originally had decent crossover parts and I probably spent around $1,000 to replace only the capacitors (Sonicaps) with higher quality ones (huge and heavy and barely fit into the cabinets!!) and added bypass caps. If a manufacturer sent me comparable upgraded crossovers to install, the price would have been something like $2,500 which is well over half the cost of my speakers. That's why crossover upgrades often only make cents if you DIY. 

[lazbisme]

It may be relevant that the current offering on X4s is $6800 for Premium and $9800 for Ultra, the difference being a crossover upgrade and a different base. The crossover "box" appears to be larger on the Ultra. So, that is $2000 ADDITIONAL for upgraded crossover parts(less whatever stand difference is).
I believe the newsletter said that the majority of their current orders for the X4 opt for the ULTRA.

[Early B.]

It may be relevant that the current offering on X4s is $6800 for Premium and $9800 for Ultra, the difference being a crossover upgrade and a different base. The crossover "box" appears to be larger on the Ultra. So, that is $2000 ADDITIONAL for upgraded crossover parts(less whatever stand difference is).
I believe the newsletter said that the majority of their current orders for the X4 opt for the ULTRA.

Good observation. Based on this statement, it's probably a partial upgrade: "By employing copper foil inductors and oil-impregnated film capacitors, we have achieved a remarkable balance of revealing detail and musicality."

Are the improved caps on the tweeter circuit only? Which brand of caps do they use? Any bypass caps? I'm not being critical of a partial crossover upgrade, just pointing out that it would be nice to know where the additional $2K is going. Heck, I wanted to add copper foil inductors on my DIY speakers, but they wouldn't fit on the crossover board. Someday, I might build external crossovers, but the enclosure would be half the size of the darn speakers.
   

[El Tio]

Mr Big, I have always wanted to know what is in the crossover of my M3's but haven't brought myself to open it up to see. Apparently you have. My understanding is there are two inductors and one cap? What did you see when you went inside? (type/manufacturer/mounting/etc.).  Pictures if you have them would be awesome.

Well I had laid my M3 Sapphires down to do some work on my IsoAcoustics feet. I decided to satisfy my curiosity and look inside the crossover. I was surprised to find there were more components than I thought there would be (Spatial touted the "minimal" crossover on the M3 Sapphire). The components are of "good" quality. There are cored inductors manufactured by Erse who claim they rival air core? So not what I was expecting but I am not compelled to "upgrade" anything.

[Charles Xavier]

Thanks for taking the plunge for the rest of us

[Mr. Big]

Well I had laid my M3 Sapphires down to do some work on my IsoAcoustics feet. I decided to satisfy my curiosity and look inside the crossover. I was surprised to find there were more components than I thought there would be (Spatial touted the "minimal" crossover on the M3 Sapphire). The components are of "good" quality. There are cored inductors manufactured by Erse who claim they rival air core? So not what I was expecting but I am not compelled to "upgrade" anything.

That is a very nice crossover and not an afterthought. Kudos to Clayton. I've seen a lot more expensive speakers as good and lesser. You can change the part, but you better know that you will also change the balance and yes, it will sound different, like any mod that swaps out parts for better without having the background to read a schematic, the background to understand the circuit and its design. I let a guy come over and switch out the capacitor with a very high-quality Supreme Mundorf Capacitor he swore the detail was so much better, we played the same track and it took me less than 30 seconds to say it sound like crap, the up mids to the highs were so out of balance to the mid-bass and low end that the speaker sounded like a shill transistor radio, yes, there was more detail, and yes it was easy to hear, and also easy to know it threw the speaker out of wack, a little unsoldering and putting the stock part back in and all was in balance again. it the old days a mod guy would say that he took out the mid-bass hump to explain the brightness. After that he wanted to add a resistor to the tweeter saying it smoothed it out highs it did and also took all the air away, the guy actually reviewed these speakers and was a Quad owner like me. Again I said to myself leave well enough alone, if you enjoy them don't screw with it.

[Jaytor]

Well I had laid my M3 Sapphires down to do some work on my IsoAcoustics feet. I decided to satisfy my curiosity and look inside the crossover. I was surprised to find there were more components than I thought there would be (Spatial touted the "minimal" crossover on the M3 Sapphire). The components are of "good" quality. There are cored inductors manufactured by Erse who claim they rival air core? So not what I was expecting but I am not compelled to "upgrade" anything.

This crossover actually is very simple. I suspect the three ferrite core inductors are in series to create an effective 30mH. So you can think of these as a single component. I'm assuming that these are on the woofer circuit. Changing these to air-core inductors might be a small improvement, but they would be WAY bigger. Jantzen makes 14ga 15mH air-core inductors which 91mm (~3.5in) in diameter and 62mm (~2.5in) tall. Foil inductors would be even better, but even larger. 10mH 14ga are 149mm x 37mm and you'd need three for each crossover.

The one part that I would be most interested in replacing is the electrolytic cap in the lower left. But again, a replacement film cap is likely to be much larger which would probably necessitate an external crossover. And it looks like this cap is already bypassed with a film cap which provides some of the benefit.

Changing the two film caps could also change the sound to your liking, but the differences will be more subtle and could certainly result in a sonic signature that you don't like.

If you are interested in upgrading your crossover, I'd suggest talking to Clayton. He is well aware of the value of quality crossover parts and might be willing to provide some guidance. But it's likely to cost you upwards of $1000 or more for the pair to get an appreciable improvement.

If it were me and I wanted to pursue this, I'd build a completely new set of crossovers in a separate external box so that I could switch back to the stock units to compare after the new crossovers were well broken in. Many of the more exotic film caps take hundreds of hours before they sound their best.

[El Tio]

Two of the Caps are Audyn.

[DBT AUDIO]

I would be surprised if Spatial Audio entertained performing crossover upgrades for Spatial owners?  They are a speaker manufacturer and it’s rare that a speaker manufacturer will support continuous speaker upgrades to their existing owners.  They primarily want to sell speakers, not upgrades after they leave their shop.  I can understand a DIY project, but not so much from the speaker manufacturer.  Companies that manufacture preamps and amps sometimes offer upgrades to existing customers.  I know Conrad Johnson used to offer Teflon cap upgrades to existing customers and D’Agostino will currently do upgrades as well.  I don’t think most speaker manufacturers like Klipsch, B&W, Magnepan, KEF, Magico, Wilson Audio, and so on would support doing upgrades for existing customers.  They want to sell the new product with all of their revised offerings.  We’ll see if Spatial responds to the request of existing owners on this forum.