Speaker Placement/Setup (and room treatment) Cannot be Overrstated!

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Mr. Big

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OK Guys instead of starting a new thread, I thought I would just add to this one about speaker placement - room treatment. Thanks forky for a great and important topic.

OK guys update to my setup. First I really took the time to measure and make it as even as I can. I put the speakers at the minimum distance 36" from the front wall to make better use of the space. I was watching a video of Jim Smith on (The Absolute Sound) YT channel, and have to agree with Jim's recommendation. Sitting too close you do get better? instrument separation, but in reality you would have to be very close almost on stage to get that level and it sounds unnatural. Sitting back does put everything in context. I received my Gik 244 bass traps. It took a couple weeks, so keep that in mind if you order any. They are free standing which is really nice. Been playing with ceiling tiles to no real avail :) So as I was putting these in place I asked myself literally in my mind, would these be the ticket. Well guys I was pretty shocked at the improvement. Listening to some classical music on vinyl, I was surprised at how much clearer and the muddiness was gone. The upper frequency's seem to really benefit. I put Alfred Brendal Schubert piano music which I'm very familiar with and was really blown away. I have NEVER NEVER heard it sound this good. Nuance to the notes and the piano, you could hear the note getting struck. Every note was distinct and the air in between is killer. I was so happy to say the least. All vinyl sounded clearer, better high's, great bass. I feel like the upper bass driver really shines. I sometime wonder if it was even contributing at all in the past. A good portion of the tweeter output that seem to bug me has diminished. I'm guessing that has to do the the mid bass driver contributing better in that area. All in all guys, the GIK traps worked wonders for me.  Now I'm starting to hear what my system can really do. I'm very impressed to say the least. Thank you to all that reached out to help. btw the bass traps are even with the speakers, it just doesn't look like it from the angle of the photo's. Oh another thing. Vinyl is the shit :) These albums are 45-60 years old (phillips mostly) wholly mackerel they sound amazing.



Vinyl is only as good as the pressing and the tape source, that the LPs you listened to was 45-60 years old tells you that the tapes and if 1st pressing like all of mine were, you have the best that recording could sound, now when the company goes to transfer them to a digital file as all new vinyl comes from and now they are working with very old tape with all the loss of fidelity and noise that goes with age.

Nothing wrong with digital unless it has to work with far, far inferior tape sources than they give it to you like it is the best it can.  Any LP's with RE on the back cover I never would buy, for the most part, they sounded inferior and some were like cheap transistor radios sound-wise, where did the bass go? and that was not digital that was vinyl, it was never the medium it the source and care put into the production and mastering of that release, and format does not matter. !st generations tapes to for the analog age, where digital kicks butt is new full digital recordings, not old worn out analog tapes for sources which are rare now because to protect against further loss all recording companies transferred the tape to digital to preserve them for the future generation. You want the real sound of a old analog recording then look for used copies.
« Last Edit: 18 Nov 2022, 02:12 pm by Mr. Big »

forky

Forky, good on ya for being really careful with your measurements and positioning. It doesn't cost anything - just care and time. Tape measure and laser level are your friends. And it seems that compared with other speakers I've had in my room, Spatials benefit more from very careful placement.

I've been experimenting with speaker placement, listening position and treatments for a few days because I felt I wasn't getting the last 5 or 10% out of my system. I am in a 13X20 room, with the speakers on the long wall, so it is a challenge to get the speakers far enough out from the front wall and the listening position far enough out from the back wall, without being too close to the speakers and thus needing the speakers too close together and crushing the soundstage.

As it turns out, I have my speakers about 30% off the front wall, and my listening position is also 30% away from the back wall, when I have an equilateral triangle 7.5' on each side. Toe-in right now grazes the sides of my listening chair. Diffusion on the front wall, absorption on the sides and ceiling, thick carpet on the floor, and quasi-diffusion on the back wall (shelves of records on top of cupboards that I open when listening. Compared with previously, the listening chair is about a foot farther into the room than before, but the speakers are pretty much where they used to be. But, (and here's the thing that surprised me), by being a bit more off the back wall, the brightness that I have struggled with in my room has diminished to the point where it is a non-issue. I have been using a Schiit Lokius EQ unit to boost the bass and tone down the highs, but now the upper frequency bands are all nulled and I just have the lower frequencies boosted to give a bit of a fatter bass sound.

Personally, I think the room treatment/positioning part of the hobby is the most satisfying. To each his own, but I feel that many of us are more likely to swap cables or tubes to fine-tune our sound, when in fact, tweaking the room can have a significantly greater impact. That said, the Schiit Lokius will probably stay in my system, since it has a defeat switch and doesn't seem to impact the sound of my system at all. For rock music, I find I enjoy "hitting the loudness button" but for things like jazz, I usually put the Lokius in pass-through mode.

Sounds like great dimensions and placement. I tried the 30% (and 33.33%) placement along w/ an eq triangle and couldn't it get it to work. I think it at least somewhat depends on the room itself.

I bought the small Loki last year and still have it but never seemed to sound right with it in (except bypassed). I loved (!) my old Pioneer EQ when I was a kid - maybe I'll find an old one of those (j/k.........sort of).

But yes, I'm very happy w/ my system now except I still haven't heard it since that day :( . Wife doesn't leave the building until next Friday. I sitll listen in my headphones every night though for about 45 minutes.

forky

OK Guys instead of starting a new thread, I thought I would just add to this one about speaker placement - room treatment. Thanks forky for a great and important topic.

OK guys update to my setup. First I really took the time to measure and make it as even as I can. I put the speakers at the minimum distance 36" from the front wall to make better use of the space. I was watching a video of Jim Smith on (The Absolute Sound) YT channel, and have to agree with Jim's recommendation. Sitting too close you do get better? instrument separation, but in reality you would have to be very close almost on stage to get that level and it sounds unnatural. Sitting back does put everything in context. I received my Gik 244 bass traps. It took a couple weeks, so keep that in mind if you order any. They are free standing which is really nice. Been playing with ceiling tiles to no real avail :) So as I was putting these in place I asked myself literally in my mind, would these be the ticket. Well guys I was pretty shocked at the improvement. Listening to some classical music on vinyl, I was surprised at how much clearer and the muddiness was gone. The upper frequency's seem to really benefit. I put Alfred Brendal Schubert piano music which I'm very familiar with and was really blown away. I have NEVER NEVER heard it sound this good. Nuance to the notes and the piano, you could hear the note getting struck. Every note was distinct and the air in between is killer. I was so happy to say the least. All vinyl sounded clearer, better high's, great bass. I feel like the upper bass driver really shines. I sometime wonder if it was even contributing at all in the past. A good portion of the tweeter output that seem to bug me has diminished. I'm guessing that has to do the the mid bass driver contributing better in that area. All in all guys, the GIK traps worked wonders for me.  Now I'm starting to hear what my system can really do. I'm very impressed to say the least. Thank you to all that reached out to help. btw the bass traps are even with the speakers, it just doesn't look like it from the angle of the photo's. Oh another thing. Vinyl is the shit :) These albums are 45-60 years old (phillips mostly) wholly mackerel they sound amazing.



Good stuff! With the posts in this thread and others I'm going to purchase some ASC tube traps for my corners - probably next year. My next project is building stand-alone stands for the ABB1s (deflection panels). I may order another set of GIK 242s for the side walls and buy another 6 planks from ASC as well but that should be all. I still need to take measurements to see where the room is now.

Besides an old Take Five (early 60s IIRC) , my oldest records are first pressings of classic rock starting in '67. Some of them do sound amazing - esp my 1st UK of Abby Road, -2/-1

forky

In my first post here I didn't have my measurements and said I would update this thread with those:

I'm 27% into the room at 5.299'.
Speakers are 5.2 from the back wall - hmmmm, just noticed this  :P - so the 30% rule didn't work but apparently 27% did (!). 
Speakers are 6.637 apart and 5.29x from each side wall.
Speakers are 8.775 from my ears.

I tried the Jim Smith 83%, 82% and 84% and none worked but it turned out for my system it is 73.67% - almost 10% difference. However I had read some guru somewhere who said that the distance from ears to speakers should be 1.5 times the distance that the speakers are apart - mine turned out to be 1.322% (but 73.67% using Jim Smith's formula).

I realize 6.637' apart is fairly close but it is what worked and is wide enough for me. I'm not moving the speakers or chair a mm for a long time - will only be adding new treatment. Eventually I'm sure I'll move them around some again for a wider sound stage but very very  :green: with them as-is.

whydontumarryit

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In my first post here I didn't have my measurements and said I would update this thread with those:

I'm 27% into the room at 5.299'.
Speakers are 5.2 from the back wall - hmmmm, just noticed this  :P - so the 30% rule didn't work but apparently 27% did (!). 
Speakers are 6.637 apart and 5.29x from each side wall.
Speakers are 8.775 from my ears.

I tried the Jim Smith 83%, 82% and 84% and none worked but it turned out for my system it is 73.67% - almost 10% difference. However I had read some guru somewhere who said that the distance from ears to speakers should be 1.5 times the distance that the speakers are apart - mine turned out to be 1.322% (but 73.67% using Jim Smith's formula).

I realize 6.637' apart is fairly close but it is what worked and is wide enough for me. I'm not moving the speakers or chair a mm for a long time - will only be adding new treatment. Eventually I'm sure I'll move them around some again for a wider sound stage but very very  :green: with them as-is.

Are you and DaveWin comparing notes?

DaveWin88

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Vinyl is only as good as the pressing and the tape source, that the LPs you listened to was 45-60 years old tells you that the tapes and if 1st pressing like all of mine were, you have the best that recording could sound, now when the company goes to transfer them to a digital file as all new vinyl comes from and now they are working with very old tape with all the loss of fidelity and noise that goes with age.

Nothing wrong with digital unless it has to work with far, far inferior tape sources than they give it to you like it is the best it can.  Any LP's with RE on the back cover I never would buy, for the most part, they sounded inferior and some were like cheap transistor radios sound-wise, where did the bass go? and that was not digital that was vinyl, it was never the medium it the source and care put into the production and mastering of that release, and format does not matter. !st generations tapes to for the analog age, where digital kicks butt is new full digital recordings, not old worn out analog tapes for sources which are rare now because to protect against further loss all recording companies transferred the tape to digital to preserve them for the future generation. You want the real sound of a old analog recording then look for used copies.
Almost my entire collection is used. At first I really didn't know about what labels to buy. Turnabout, Dover, and some of the copies leave a lot to be desired. What does RE stand for? I'm definitely trying to track down some of the early pressings of Ella Fitzgerald, Marvin Gaye. I'm trying to buy as little new vinyl as possible, just for the price alone :)
« Last Edit: 19 Nov 2022, 04:52 am by DaveWin88 »

DaveWin88

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Good stuff! With the posts in this thread and others I'm going to purchase some ASC tube traps for my corners - probably next year. My next project is building stand-alone stands for the ABB1s (deflection panels). I may order another set of GIK 242s for the side walls and buy another 6 planks from ASC as well but that should be all. I still need to take measurements to see where the room is now.

Besides an old Take Five (early 60s IIRC) , my oldest records are first pressings of classic rock starting in '67. Some of them do sound amazing - esp my 1st UK of Abby Road, -2/-1
Be careful not to deaden your room. 

forky

Be careful not to deaden your room.

Yes, have thought about that. Will probably start w/ the tube traps and then go from there (and a PSM 156 at some point).

As far as vinyl goes:

As they say in the race car hobby - never add up your receipts! - but I can say I have spent a lot of time and $ over the past 14-16 months or so adding to my record collection. I have a bunch I saved from when I was in my teens, 20s and 30s (I'm 53) but really was not aware of different pressings until last year!! I just never heard about it and never searched it on the www. It opened up a new (and expensive) world for me. If anyone is bored and interested, my collection of my good stuff (but some of these were recently bought and will be sold) is listed here: https://www.discogs.com/user/Cayman964/collection   . I haven't added most of records I owned prior to last year (but some).


Here is what I have found and YMMV:

While most of the time I do prefer early pressings of classic rock, some represses / remastering do sound as good as the orignals, and I have a lot of them - sometimes even better although that is subjective of course and better may just be "different".

Of the 200 or so records I have purchased in the past 16 months (in addition to my 400-ish I had), I will be selling around 40, maybe 50 of them - so not all of them are good, but many are.
A few stand outs of the newer (after 1980) ones - this isn't a complete list of course as I don't want derail us too badly. :)

2020: https://www.discogs.com/release/14671061-Al-Di-Meola-John-McLaughlin-Paco-De-Lucia-Friday-Night-In-San-Francisco

1994: I purchased this one new: https://www.discogs.com/release/1017812-Alice-In-Chains-Jar-Of-Flies-Sap

2010: https://www.discogs.com/release/2445087-Alice-In-Chains-MTV-Unplugged

2018: https://www.discogs.com/release/12775821-The-Beatles-The-Beatles-And-Esher-Demos

2016: -this one is really phenomenal, not that the others are not: https://www.discogs.com/release/9436063-Beck-Sea-Change

2021: https://www.discogs.com/release/18265471-Blood-Sweat-Tears-Blood-Sweat-Tears

And that's just a few of the As and Bs. The last one is a DSD Mofi 1-step, from thier site: "1/4" / 15 IPS analog master to DSD 256 to analog console to lathe" . I don't care how they did it but it sounds absolutley mind blowing. A review there from July, "Listening to this pressing on an audiophile set up was one of the most incredible experiences of my life. No words can describe what it was like."

Now I've never heard the BST original pressing but I really don't think I need to.

However, for Led Zeppelin (my favorite group), I much prefer the orignal or at least early repressings (esp. Marta Alvear's cuts from Spain in the 70s  :o  :green: ). I prefer early pressings for the Beatles although the 2018 White album is one of my best sounding pressings. But for Abby Rd, Peppers and MMTour I like the older ones. Most of my Stones are old but I did just buy this modern reissue of Begger's Banqet and it sounds fantastic - although I wouldn't say it is one of my best sounding records, it is still very good: https://www.discogs.com/release/24361880-The-Rolling-Stones-Beggars-Banquet

Generally on Hoffman I read often that the original pressings have more soul and more "aliveness" while the excellent (not crappy ones of course) newer copies are more "pefect" and often more audiofile with fantastic separation and I would agree w/ that.

One of my most recent buys is this all analog 2006 remaster of Paranoid and it is also - mind blowingly good in my Focal Stellas. Besides the volume inconsistancy which is a defect in the original US master tapes. https://www.discogs.com/release/1121991-Black-Sabbath-Paranoid

Btw, I'm about 99% vinyl and 1$ CD. I don't have a streamer/dac.

DaveWin88

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In my first post here I didn't have my measurements and said I would update this thread with those:

I'm 27% into the room at 5.299'.
Speakers are 5.2 from the back wall - hmmmm, just noticed this  :P - so the 30% rule didn't work but apparently 27% did (!). 
Speakers are 6.637 apart and 5.29x from each side wall.
Speakers are 8.775 from my ears.

I tried the Jim Smith 83%, 82% and 84% and none worked but it turned out for my system it is 73.67% - almost 10% difference. However I had read some guru somewhere who said that the distance from ears to speakers should be 1.5 times the distance that the speakers are apart - mine turned out to be 1.322% (but 73.67% using Jim Smith's formula).

I realize 6.637' apart is fairly close but it is what worked and is wide enough for me. I'm not moving the speakers or chair a mm for a long time - will only be adding new treatment. Eventually I'm sure I'll move them around some again for a wider sound stage but very very  :green: with them as-is.
Hey forky I wanted to mention and remind myself that you should consider settling times. I've moved things around it the past and made the decision within the first hour that it wouldn't work/no improvement. I say give hours? maybe even a couple days. One other thing is that I know my system sounds fine from the get go, but really doesn't sound it's best till the amp has been running a least 3+ hours. Just food for thought. 

Wayner

Symmetry is the goal when setting up a speaker system, but as one would expect, there are very few listening rooms that are perfectly symmetrical. Some people promote the “Golden Rule” method (.6 : 1 : 1.6), but that method almost never works because of room geometry or things in the way of achieving the correct spacings. Speakers and listener end up forming a triangle in the listening room. The triangle needs to be symmetrical along a line from the listener to the exact center between the speakers. I have found that almost all speakers need to be pointed at the listener’s position.

There are some general rules that I follow (but not always). One is keeping the speakers away from the side walls. That first reflection adds a time delay and smears the direct radiation from the driver(s), so the side reflections need to be absorbed, eliminated, diffracted or altered in some way to keep its intensity from the listener. Next is dealing with the “tweeter at ear level” rule. I generally don’t like it. HF tend to beam and that is not where most of the musical content is anyway, so why point it at year ears. Most musical content is in the midrange and upper bass, so if I were to put any drivers at ear level, it would be one of those drivers. The tweeter is the “icing” on the cake, not the cake. So, my speaker elevation is higher than the normal. Live concerts have the orchestra on a stage, the rock band is on a stage, the instruments or sound reinforcement is on the stage or elevated even higher than the stage. Listening room furniture is out of the way when speakers are elevated and hardwood or hard surface floors have less effect on primary reflections. No bookshelf speaker should be on the floor and some floor standers shouldn’t be either. Don’t set bookshelf speakers on their sides, unless they were design for such a position.

I find that I favor the long front wall to set my speakers, as it allows for a wider spacing between the speakers. This produces a better “stereo” effect and better defines the imaging and positions. It also seems to add a bit of depth to the soundstage. So, two to three feet seems to be a good number to start at, perhaps the same distance from the front wall. Now there are basically 3 spots for the listening position, one is near field, the other I’ll just call a normal position (around 8 feet from the speakers) and the third is a distant position. In almost every case, the toe-in angle matches the vector line of the speaker to listener position. In other words, when seated at the listening position, you are looking at the speaker’s face straight on. This is at least a starting point. I do have some speakers that benefit from lesser angles, but I always start from this position. I also like to pick an aiming point that is somewhat behind my actual position, perhaps by a foot or two.

I find that subwoofers benefit from being close to one front wall corner. Corners can act like amplifiers as each surface can have increased gain. There are plenty of opinions on this placement topic, so the golden rule is to experiment. If 2 (or more) subs are operating, they need to be symmetrically located within the geometry of the mains and listener position.

To sum it all up, I use a tape measure to measure corners of speakers to surfaces, from speakers to listener as all (as noted) need to end up symmetrical. The fun part is that my spouse likes music too, so we have to have a sweet spot that is built for two. We both get great stereo imaging using this alignment method. As a side note, I must admit that there is always the occasional tweaking going on, changing the toe-in angle is the usual tweak. But both get tweaked to the same amount to keep the symmetry. I also find that some speakers eventually bounce out of alignment and need to be checked from time to time. I have developed a map that has dimension that describe the speaker’s position. Sounds extreme, but has come in handy several time. If a nice set-up has been achieved, map it!

Mr. Big

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I have carpeted floor in my audio room and due to that I came up with an easy way to get my speaker perfect in line in distance and toe in. I measure the width of the room and in the dead middle I put a nail through the carpet and in low enough so I can attach my tape measure to it and it stays secure, I then measure one speaker that I played with to lock in, take that measurement and reproduce that on the other speaker...done. Listen make adjustments in toe-in to see if it improves or not and once, I do that both in and out by 1/4" I keep they best sounding measurements for my room, and I rarely feel a need to play with them again. If I do, I have my nail in place which makes the new placement much faster, in fact within minutes now because I've learned the room and the speaker interaction in my room, it really is an education on any speaker to learn how the speaker interacts within one's room.

DaveWin88

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I remember early on when I first posted on these forums, Mr Big was stressing the importance of room treatment. I never foo fooed it but it's one of those things in the hobby that until you experience it for yourself (like many things  i.e getting cables off the ground, cables themselves and so on) so yeah in all reality, it's probably where I should have gone right away. But I have learned a ton in the process :)

Early B.

There are some general rules that I follow (but not always). ...  Next is dealing with the “tweeter at ear level” rule. I generally don’t like it. HF tend to beam and that is not where most of the musical content is anyway, so why point it at your ears. Most musical content is in the midrange and upper bass, so if I were to put any drivers at ear level, it would be one of those drivers. The tweeter is the “icing” on the cake, not the cake. So, my speaker elevation is higher than the normal.

Exactly! That tweeter at ear height concept is nonsense for the reasons you provided. The higher I lift my monitors above ear height, the better they sound. Hell, I'm tempted to suspend them from the ceiling like they do at live venues! :o

Tyson

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  • Audio - It's all a big fake.
I also prefer tall speakers. 

DaveWin88

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Here's where I'm currently at ear wise. btw if you guys want to hear some incredible piano work, Christoph Ullrich has done all 555 Scarlatti harpsichord pieces on a regular piano.

 

Tangram

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  • Posts: 177
Symmetry is the goal when setting up a speaker system, but as one would expect, there are very few listening rooms that are perfectly symmetrical. Some people promote the “Golden Rule” method (.6 : 1 : 1.6), but that method almost never works because of room geometry or things in the way of achieving the correct spacings. Speakers and listener end up forming a triangle in the listening room. The triangle needs to be symmetrical along a line from the listener to the exact center between the speakers. I have found that almost all speakers need to be pointed at the listener’s position.

There are some general rules that I follow (but not always). One is keeping the speakers away from the side walls. That first reflection adds a time delay and smears the direct radiation from the driver(s), so the side reflections need to be absorbed, eliminated, diffracted or altered in some way to keep its intensity from the listener. Next is dealing with the “tweeter at ear level” rule. I generally don’t like it. HF tend to beam and that is not where most of the musical content is anyway, so why point it at year ears. Most musical content is in the midrange and upper bass, so if I were to put any drivers at ear level, it would be one of those drivers. The tweeter is the “icing” on the cake, not the cake. So, my speaker elevation is higher than the normal. Live concerts have the orchestra on a stage, the rock band is on a stage, the instruments or sound reinforcement is on the stage or elevated even higher than the stage. Listening room furniture is out of the way when speakers are elevated and hardwood or hard surface floors have less effect on primary reflections. No bookshelf speaker should be on the floor and some floor standers shouldn’t be either. Don’t set bookshelf speakers on their sides, unless they were design for such a position.

I find that I favor the long front wall to set my speakers, as it allows for a wider spacing between the speakers. This produces a better “stereo” effect and better defines the imaging and positions. It also seems to add a bit of depth to the soundstage. So, two to three feet seems to be a good number to start at, perhaps the same distance from the front wall. Now there are basically 3 spots for the listening position, one is near field, the other I’ll just call a normal position (around 8 feet from the speakers) and the third is a distant position. In almost every case, the toe-in angle matches the vector line of the speaker to listener position. In other words, when seated at the listening position, you are looking at the speaker’s face straight on. This is at least a starting point. I do have some speakers that benefit from lesser angles, but I always start from this position. I also like to pick an aiming point that is somewhat behind my actual position, perhaps by a foot or two.

I find that subwoofers benefit from being close to one front wall corner. Corners can act like amplifiers as each surface can have increased gain. There are plenty of opinions on this placement topic, so the golden rule is to experiment. If 2 (or more) subs are operating, they need to be symmetrically located within the geometry of the mains and listener position.

To sum it all up, I use a tape measure to measure corners of speakers to surfaces, from speakers to listener as all (as noted) need to end up symmetrical. The fun part is that my spouse likes music too, so we have to have a sweet spot that is built for two. We both get great stereo imaging using this alignment method. As a side note, I must admit that there is always the occasional tweaking going on, changing the toe-in angle is the usual tweak. But both get tweaked to the same amount to keep the symmetry. I also find that some speakers eventually bounce out of alignment and need to be checked from time to time. I have developed a map that has dimension that describe the speaker’s position. Sounds extreme, but has come in handy several time. If a nice set-up has been achieved, map it!

I agree with pretty much everything you say, except the need to raise floorstanders off the floor. You choose to have the tweeters aimed right at your ears (or at least, that's how I read your post) but most people have them aimed off-axis from their ears, which probably tames the beaming you speak of. Regarding the height of mid-range drivers, the dispersion is such that they don't beam and thus, height relative to your ears is less important.

The larger Spatials (in my case, the M3 Sapphires), depending on the height of your listening chair, are above ear level. They are pretty tall speakers and the tweeter is fairly high up on the baffle.

One surprising thing I'd like to share with the group that I found this week while experimenting with seat placement is that by moving my chair only 1' more into the room than previously (4' vs. 3') I completely got rid of a treble brightness that I'd resorted to using a Schiit Lokius tone control to tame. I don't get too many of these big changes while playing around with placement these days, and maybe it was just a function of my room and treatments, but I was floored. No need to tame the highs with the Lokius anymore; I just use it for boosting bass a bit so I don't need to use my subs.

So, if anyone is struggling with the Peerless tweeter in the M3Ss being too energetic or bright, consider the distance your listening chair is from the back wall. You, too, may be surprised.

Wayner

My HF drivers are in line with my ears, but remember, they are also elevated above my ears, in some cases, more than a foot. I do use some room treatment on the first reflection on the side walls, that being a "bouquet" of cattails and native Minnesota tall grass. To find the first reflection spot, you need a mirror and a buddy. have him hold the mirror flat against the wall, while you sit in the sweet spot. Have him move the mirror around until you can see your tweeter in the mirror. This is the first reflection spot for your location. You can do nothing, try to diffuse it or absorb it...whatever. This is especially important if your speakers are less than a couple of feet away from the side wall. My vinyl room has 4 cattail locations to tame down "hand clap" echos. Since I live out in the "boonies". it's a natural thing for me as my house is filled with tall grasses and things like cattails.

Some speakers are so good at off axis response on the high end, they may not really benefit from drastic, inline toe-in. One example is my Dynaco A25XL(CDB's) which are also really close to the side walls (can't be helped due to space limitations. The SEAS H086 tweeter (minus the screen) is wonderful HF driver and very little toe-in is required.

I just think that if someone is not really happy with their current setup, they need to shed some of the established norms and experiment! You might surprise yourself with the results and sometimes its just a little change in position or angle that makes all the difference. That's what my 50 years of this has shown myself. Because almost every room is different and the furnishings and textures are too, there are only "general" rules, move things, change things, evaluate changes. Use a favorite musical event to help.

Mr. Big

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I agree with pretty much everything you say, except the need to raise floorstanders off the floor. You choose to have the tweeters aimed right at your ears (or at least, that's how I read your post) but most people have them aimed off-axis from their ears, which probably tames the beaming you speak of. Regarding the height of mid-range drivers, the dispersion is such that they don't beam and thus, height relative to your ears is less important.

The larger Spatials (in my case, the M3 Sapphires), depending on the height of your listening chair, are above ear level. They are pretty tall speakers and the tweeter is fairly high up on the baffle.

One surprising thing I'd like to share with the group that I found this week while experimenting with seat placement is that by moving my chair only 1' more into the room than previously (4' vs. 3') I completely got rid of a treble brightness that I'd resorted to using a Schiit Lokius tone control to tame. I don't get too many of these big changes while playing around with placement these days, and maybe it was just a function of my room and treatments, but I was floored. No need to tame the highs with the Lokius anymore; I just use it for boosting bass a bit so I don't need to use my subs.

So, if anyone is struggling with the Peerless tweeter in the M3Ss being too energetic or bright, consider the distance your listening chair is from the back wall. You, too, may be surprised.

Your so correct on trying to move your chair closer and back, it does make a huge difference on how that tweeter hits you and blending. I say this to my last audio breath, no matter the speaker you have to educate yourself on how they interact with your room and how they change with toe-in, closer or further back and even how close they are, in my room some would say they are to close but they are not for the room width, they sound more open, and they disappear much more. Even my Quads could suck setup wrong but get them right in my case was more toe-in they just exploded with dynamics, openness, better bass and body to the music and imaging just snapped into place.

Tangram

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 177
I subscribe to PS Audio’s free (but superb) online magazine, Copper. They are currently publishing a series of articles on small room acoustics (by definition, small room generally means any residential listening room.) some of the commentary is “motherhood” in nature, but there are lots of other very interesting insights as well. I also find the writing above average and easy to follow.

Here’s the link to the second instalment if anyone’s interested:

https://www.psaudio.com/copper/article/small-room-acoustics-part-two/

forky

Hey forky I wanted to mention and remind myself that you should consider settling times. I've moved things around it the past and made the decision within the first hour that it wouldn't work/no improvement. I say give hours? maybe even a couple days. One other thing is that I know my system sounds fine from the get go, but really doesn't sound it's best till the amp has been running a least 3+ hours. Just food for thought.

Lol, that's no problem here! I can only listen to my M3s when my wife has left the building (otherwise I'm in Focal Stellia's every night  :green: ) and she hasn't left since I found THE setup. It looks like she has an appt on Friday afternooon so will know more then. Hopefully nothing has changed (unless it magically gets better). I have heard that about the amp so I've been turning on about 1 hour before listening each night. I'll turn on earlier on Friday. Thanks.