AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Enclosures => Topic started by: charmerci on 29 Dec 2015, 08:00 pm
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I've now had my Philharmonic Audio New Philharmonitors for a few weeks now.
http://philharmonicaudio.com/ (http://philharmonicaudio.com/)
There was a lot to like about them but there were things about them that I wasn't crazy about - mainly just overwhelming bass when played loudly and one "problem" that I've had over the last few years - some digital harshness that is somewhat bothersome. (Equipment being FLAC files into ODAC/ I had the Pioneer VSX-D912 http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=68889.0 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=68889.0) / Odyssey Tempest pre-amp/AVA Synergy 240/ cables are StraightWire/Soundsilver/Kabeldirect)
After some repositioning and isolating the speakers using sorbothane feet (thanks, Dennis) they sounded better - getting rid of some bass boominess and midrange resonance. (I've got them on a floating wood floor. It's the whole house so there's not much I can do about that.) I then also bought an AVA Ultra DAC here on AC which made the midrange less harsh. (The ODAC is excellent for $100) Then I bought - fortunately cheap - a USB>DAC cable
( http://schiit.com/products/pyst-cables (http://schiit.com/products/pyst-cables)) to replace the cheapo one. That overall helped a little bit - especially with voices. In comparison, Janis Ian's voice -At Seventeen - seemed to be out of a box and sounded like she was singing into a microphone - which is now what I often notice, singers singing into a microphone. Even though the cable made a small final difference, it was enough for me to really like listening to the system.....except every recording sounds SO different. I have a hard time listening to most new music so almost all of what I listen to was recorded in the 50's, 60's, 70's and some into the 80's. I do have a few newer recordings though. But the funny thing is that my old stand-by super-best recordings (about 5 or 6 of them) are now not listenable at high levels. For example, Pat Metheny's Third Wind off of the Still Life (Talking) album, I used to be able to crank up but now there's a high end harshness that I can't listen to. It's like every song has an acceptable level that I can listen to loudly. Some recordings that I can listen to very loudly without harshness are Warm Ways Fleetwood Mac and Neil Diamond's Stones album.
Having listened and read and studied this audio field for decades now, I know it's good stuff but I'm kind of at my budget limit. To get better sound, I'd have to spend a lot more money. Maybe my hearing/brain is getting more sensitive as I get older? Is my system/loudspeakers now so sensitive that it transmits every distorted detail that can grate on my ears? It's kind of frustrating. Maybe I'll just have to stick with listening to music at reasonable volumes which defeats the reason for spending this kind of money on a nice system.
To sum up briefly, it's mainly the high frequency harshness (clarity?) at high levels that bothers my ear drums. (No - to sum up briefly - I'm not going to start down the vinyl road.)
I know that this room is not ideal but I can't change it - I'm using it for temporary testing purposes before it goes into my smaller office where I can occasionally turn it up to fair volumes but can't crank it up like I can here. Maybe it's just the room?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=134239)
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OK - Dennis says maybe I'm just pushing the RAAL tweeters too hard - though they aren't being pushed to ear bleeding levels by a long shot.
:dunno:
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My RAAL's never, ever get harsh no matter what the volume.
Since it looks like you are using a laptop as your source the Audioquest Jitterbug will clean up some of the high frequency harshness.
MusicDirect has a 60-Day Money Back Guarantee.
http://www.musicdirect.com/p-333558-audioquest-jitterbug-usb-filter.aspx (http://www.musicdirect.com/p-333558-audioquest-jitterbug-usb-filter.aspx)
Ultimately to eliminate all hardness you would need use the noisy laptop as a source/server and to move to a C.A.P.S. server with a Paul Pang USB card and linear regulated power supplies or an Auralic Aries.
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My RAAL's never, ever get harsh no matter what the volume.
Since it looks like you are using a laptop as your source the Audioquest Jitterbug will clean up some of the high frequency harshness.
MusicDirect has a 60-Day Money Back Guarantee.
http://www.musicdirect.com/p-333558-audioquest-jitterbug-usb-filter.aspx (http://www.musicdirect.com/p-333558-audioquest-jitterbug-usb-filter.aspx)
Ultimately to eliminate all hardness you would need use the noisy laptop as a source/server and to move to a C.A.P.S. server with a Paul Pang USB card and linear regulated power supplies or an Auralic Aries.
Hmm, OK. I'll have to look into all that - and fit it into my budget...for well into next year!
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1. My guess is that the RAAL's might be a bit too efficient in a small two way? You might consider sending them to GR research for measurements and consultation. Danny's designs usually have a very sweet detailed top end. Not all designers and end-users have the same overall tonal preferences. He will let you know if he can rework the crossover for sound more to your preferences or if they are indeed optimized and you should focus on your electronics.
2 . It's also possible that the AVA amp while being gutsy, might be clipping at louder volumes? Smaller speakers tend to like LOTS of power.
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1. My guess is that the RAAL's might be a bit too efficient in a small two way? You might consider sending them to GR research for measurements and consultation. Danny's designs usually have a very sweet detailed top end. Not all designers and end-users have the same overall tonal preferences. He will let you know if he can rework the crossover for sound more to your preferences or if they are indeed optimized and you should focus on your electronics.
2 . It's also possible that the AVA amp while being gutsy, might be clipping at louder volumes? Smaller speakers tend to like LOTS of power.
Dennis is a well regarded crossover designer in his own right - see Salk loudspeakers or his Murphyblaster website.
I've never found AVA amps to run out of juice.
WGH above has almost the same system as mine. I'll look into his suggestions - starting with the jitterbug - first.
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Do you have your USB power isolated? Or from another source? Do you have as much trouble with CD?
As we get older we often just can't talk ourselves into things we don't enjoy, and can now recognize.
I'm nearly 100% sure I can make your system listenable at higher volumes. PM me, please. (If you have modest DIY skills it'll be cheap too)
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My 2 cents.....
No such thing as Speakers being too good, but they might reveal shortcomings in the rest of your gear, or more likely, your room.
After going from a suspended wood floor upstairs in my old location to a concrete slab in my new house, I can readily testify to huge changes in the amount and quality of the bass.
Looking at the 1 picture you have attached, I would try to address some acoustics issues. If you have any way of doing so, at least try throwing blankets, towels, whatever, over some of the other things in the room and see if you have some reflections issues. Maybe even some area treatments (rugs) on the floor in front of the speakers. Actual room treatments would be even better.
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IME your new speakers (especially the RAAL tweeters) would reveal the warts of far better supporting room/gear. These appear to be truly wonderfully detailed speakers, lacking only the bottom octave(s). You could easily justify spending $10,000 on DAC, preamp, power amp, cables, stands, and room treatments to fully support these speakers.
Didn't find any specifications on-line. Can you spell out the specifications of the speakers for us?
Hard to believe they could put out "overwhelming bass" (unless you're getting frequency specific resonance in a horrible room).
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IME digital is fatiguing until you get into some of the higher priced DACs... the suggestion to run a server/streamer setup is a good one, check out this thread, it'll save you a ton over commercial product:
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?19221-Streamer-to-kill-the-big-boys-for-under-250
I'd also seriously consider an ifi micro DSD and tube buffer for your source, the DSD DAC would work well with the above streaming solution. You also might be able to find a used Sony HAP-Z1ES around, it's not cheap but it's a one-box solution.
Cables can contribute to harshness too, don't use inexpensive silver wire for cables, it'll be fatiguing. Copper is probably best for your current system. It's possible the mil-spec wire I recommended for speaker cables may not be a good match with your system right now. If so, sorry,... :oops: It's cheap and worth trying though, the wire is useful for all sorts of DIY projects as well. Good for power cables too.
IsoAcoustics stands for your speakers would be a good idea and won't be expensive. This will clean up the bass quite a bit and keep it from rattling random stuff in your house. Way better than sorbothane.
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Do you have a wall behind your listening position? Close? Hang a throw blanket (sports team)? I did in my room, and a friend has done it too. They work better than you'd think.
Still, there's other solutions, and I don't believe you need to switch sources at all.
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I don't believe you need to switch sources at all.
A computer straight into a DAC is really not ideal. I'm not familiar with the AVA DAC but would highly recommend trying it vs the ifi just to see...
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Hi,
Sounds like you have a good quality system and no weaknesses in any of the components. One thing I've discovered is the importance of really well recorded music as your system is probably so good that it reveals all the faults in the recording.
Try some recordings by Chesky if you can and this might help you. I think what you are experiencing is similar to me and the SQ now depends not he quality of music you play. Just a guess???
Cheers Rod
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Maybe it's just the room?
If that pic is indicative of the rest of the room I would not expect to get good sound in there, especially at high volume.
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A computer straight into a DAC is really not ideal.
Why? (Specifically, I'm wondering what assumptions underlie the statement.)
Thanks!
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charmerci,
You state that you've had the Philharmonics for a few weeks. At this point, how many hours do you have on them?
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A computer straight into a DAC is really not ideal. I'm not familiar with the AVA DAC but would highly recommend trying it vs the ifi just to see...
That's why I was asking about separate USB power. The DAC needs some forms of isolation from the noisy computer. So I think Dave is right, but it isn't necessarily that it won't be just the two devices, but rather that some measures to reduce noise can be implemented.
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Two issues -- that laptop is a pushing a ton of crap into your gear and it's being magnified. GIGO.
Secondly, your cables are also a weak link (pun intended). A $20 USB cable isn't gonna get it done.
What are you using for power conditioning?
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+1 to Sebrof's comment. The room can wreak havoc on your music, especially as the volume is increased. All those high energy sound waves bouncing around and running into each other...
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No, my listening position is in the middle of the room about 10-12 feet away. As I mentioned this is a temporary place, I'm moving out in a couple of weeks but I can certainly throw some blankets around. I've been listening to various components and their sound for about 35 years now. My cables could very well be the source of the harshness.
I do understand that spending a lot more on new components can help but generally now, we're talking about 1000's of dollars that I will take years to save up at the expense of other things so....maybe? :scratch: I really can't spend too much money until later next year. I'm going on vacation for a month in mid-Jan then March expenses will be due and my funds will be low.
Thanks for all the suggestions, much to think about.
Do you have your USB power isolated? Or from another source? Do you have as much trouble with CD?
As we get older we often just can't talk ourselves into things we don't enjoy, and can now recognize.
I'm nearly 100% sure I can make your system listenable at higher volumes. PM me, please. (If you have modest DIY skills it'll be cheap too)
PM sent.
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charmerci,
You state that you've had the Philharmonics for a few weeks. At this point, how many hours do you have on them?
I dunno - 60-70 more, I listen to them all the time. I've never heard massive break-in speaker differences before - I've owned about 7 new pairs (mostly buy used) in my lifetime. No the sound isn't changing unless I make changes to my system.
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Two issues -- that laptop is a pushing a ton of crap into your gear and it's being magnified. GIGO.
Secondly, your cables are also a weak link (pun intended). A $20 USB cable isn't gonna get it done.
What are you using for power conditioning?
No power conditioning and unfortunately, for now, I really can't afford more than $20 cables.
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I dunno - 60-70 more, I listen to them all the time. I've never heard massive break-in speaker differences before - I've owned about 7 new pairs (mostly buy used) in my lifetime. No the sound isn't changing unless I make changes to my system.
I've heard speaker break-in that made me think I had a double ear infection. I also tried to make changes to my system to overcome the sound.
Try not to make a judgment until you get to a few hundred hours on them. Leave the rest of your system alone. Play your system as much as you possibly can to get the hours. It doesn't need to be loud, just play them. You might end up pleasantly surprised.
Have fun,
Jerry
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You have probably already tried this, but when I was using my laptop it sounded much better on batteries than it did plugged into the wall.
Best,
Ed
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You have probably already tried this, but when I was using my laptop it sounded much better on batteries than it did plugged into the wall.
Best,
Ed
No - but it's cheap and worth a try.
Try not to make a judgment until you get to a few hundred hours on them. Leave the rest of your system alone. Play your system as much as you possibly can to get the hours. It doesn't need to be loud, just play them. You might end up pleasantly surprised.
Have fun,
Jerry
Will do - will get back to you on that.
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Seems like in total every aspect of your room, your power supply, your gear, even the amount of break-in has been questioned.
So to summarize, allow for at least 200 hours of break-in before making an analysis, and ...
to answer your question: yes, your speakers are too good (they way out class your room and your gear).
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A $20 USB cable isn't gonna get it done.
I disagree. Right now I'm playing with the Pyst cable in my system and it sounds fine. Great?...no. Fine and mostly grain free?...yes.
My system is a 24TB NAS with the stock USB3 cable feeding a dedicated all-in-one PC (on my equipment rack) feeding a BMC Pure DAC via the PYST cable. That feeds a slightly modified McIntosh C220 tubed pre via AudioNote pure silver cables. That feeds a McIntosh MC452. The 452 feeds a pair of B&W 800 Diamonds via my home brew Cu/Ag/Teflon speaker cables. Everything is conditioned via a BPT Signature conditioner. All of my power cables are Kaplan.
Trust me, it's not the Pyst cables. Granted, not great but they sound fine.
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There was a lot to like about them but there were things about them that I wasn't crazy about - mainly just overwhelming bass when played loudly and one "problem" that I've had over the last few years - some digital harshness that is somewhat bothersome. (Equipment being FLAC files into ODAC/ I had the Pioneer VSX-D912 http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=68889.0 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=68889.0) / Odyssey Tempest pre-amp/AVA Synergy 240/ cables are StraightWire/Soundsilver/Kabeldirect)
No idea how/why you could have a AVR, preamp and power amp simultaneously configured, but if you can drive the speakers with the D912, then you should have EQ capability. I have an old Pioneer AVR (D812, D815?) stashed somewhere and I'm pretty sure one can manually EQ. Not perfect, but you could try applying some to see if you could cut whatever bass peaking you seem to have with that speaker/room/position.
I also agree with Dennis that you could simply be overdriving those small speakers, but then again you might be clipping an input somewhere. No way to tell remotely, since I can't figure how you have all that connected. :wink:
cheers,
AJ
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I also had problems in the past with harshness when using laptop as a source. I was using Flac with Audirvana and Amarra. Nowadays switched to Bryston BDP-1 and it definitely cleared up problems. Using standard stock power cables and TOTL Mogami W2549 and W3173 for analog and digital. Well priced.
Before worrying about cables, I'd try to clean up the power in your components.
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Your new speakers are exposing something up the chain that requires a change. Reavealing speakers are just that . REVEALING. After a 200 hour plus break-in try removing the Staightwire cabling and try a different cable.
Your source is a computer and my educated bet it is that. Ya know ya change one thing you always have another change. That's the way it works.
BTW i know it is temporary but those stools are NOT helping in evaluating the speakers. Move get settled set up the system properly and then after 200 hours start with a cable then the source. Have fun.
charles
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IME your new speakers (especially the RAAL tweeters) would reveal the warts of far better supporting room/gear. These appear to be truly wonderfully detailed speakers, lacking only the bottom octave(s). You could easily justify spending $10,000 on DAC, preamp, power amp, cables, stands, and room treatments to fully support these speakers.
Didn't find any specifications on-line. Can you spell out the specifications of the speakers for us?
Hard to believe they could put out "overwhelming bass" (unless you're getting frequency specific resonance in a horrible room).
I'd love to spend $10K...but it's just not in the cards...or in my wallet.
They're a new DMurphy design but he's said that they are a very easy load and not inefficient.
Yeah, a lot of that bass was specific to the room but I've moved them around and it's not so bad.
IME digital is fatiguing until you get into some of the higher priced DACs... the suggestion to run a server/streamer setup is a good one, check out this thread, it'll save you a ton over commercial product:http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?19221-Streamer-to-kill-the-big-boys-for-under-250 (http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?19221-Streamer-to-kill-the-big-boys-for-under-250)I'd also seriously consider an ifi micro DSD and tube buffer for your source, the DSD DAC would work well with the above streaming solution. You also might be able to find a used Sony HAP-Z1ES around, it's not cheap but it's a one-box solution. IsoAcoustics stands for your speakers would be a good idea and won't be expensive. This will clean up the bass quite a bit and keep it from rattling random stuff in your house. Way better than sorbothane.
The ifi Micro DSD is $500...I just don't have that now.
The AVA Ultra is a tube DAC so I don't think it's contributing to any harshness.
The sorbothane feet made a difference but I don't think IsoAcoustics will do anything about the high end harshness I'm hearing that's coming from the tweeters.
If that pic is indicative of the rest of the room I would not expect to get good sound in there, especially at high volume.
Yeah, I know but as I said, it's all I have to work with now. That's why I've pulled the speakers way out from the surfaces - I've pulled them farther from that TV but it doesn't make much of a difference. I'm listening about 10 feet away, away from any side walls.
to answer your question: yes, your speakers are too good (they way out class your room and your gear).
Geez, why doesn't that statement make me feel good? :lol:
I disagree. Right now I'm playing with the Pyst cable in my system and it sounds fine. Great?...no. Fine and mostly grain free?...yes.Trust me, it's not the Pyst cables. Granted, not great but they sound fine.
Cool. I've ordered some more.
Your new speakers are exposing something up the chain that requires a change. Reavealing speakers are just that . REVEALING. After a 200 hour plus break-in try removing the Staightwire cabling and try a different cable. Your source is a computer and my educated bet it is that. Ya know ya change one thing you always have another change. That's the way it works. BTW i know it is temporary but those stools are NOT helping in evaluating the speakers. Move get settled set up the system properly and then after 200 hours start with a cable then the source. Have fun.charles
I only have one Straightwire cable - out from the laptop. I'm actually getting some more.
Yeah, I guess this is going to be a long-term....read slow....process. I'm not sure I can afford my ears! :roll:
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No way to tell remotely, since I can't figure how you have all that connected. ;)
I wrote..I had the Pioneer receiver hooked up. It's old, it went 'poop' on me. It's permanently out of the chain. That should make my hookup more clear.
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I wrote..I had the Pioneer receiver hooked up. It's old, it went 'poop' on me. It's permanently out of the chain. That should make my hookup more clear.
Well, there goes the hardware eq option. What media player do you use?
I assume you didn't have these issues with prior speakers and previously checked with each manufacturer that you're not overdriving an input somewhere in the chain?
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I recommend "downgrading" to a speaker that uses a dome tweeter. You will find them to be more musical (due to producing far lower distortion).
Doing so would require you to change your moniker, though.
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I use Straightwire USB cable (so does Schiit) and have no complaints (after comparing it to 8 other cables - read my cable review).
And I'm a bit of a "speaker guy" and like you apparently like to over emphasize speakers compared to most. So it's easy to overdo it with the speakers. In your case the speakers are high quality and highly detailed, especially with the RAAL tweeter, so they will reveal all the warts.
Hold off making any decisions until the speakers have broken in and you've moved into the final room you mentioned. Other than speakers I believe the room is the biggest factor in playback performance. Room size/shape, speaker/listener setup, acoustic isolation, acoustic treatment, and proper bass proprogation are all bigger factors IME than software, sources, amplification, power, or cables. Frankly if you can't develop a decent room, it's honestly better to have a modest in-room system and go for a good headphone system.
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I use Straightwire USB cable (so does Schiit) and have no complaints (after comparing it to 8 other cables - read my cable review).
And I'm a bit of a "speaker guy" and like you apparently like to over emphasize speakers compared to most. So it's easy to overdo it with the speakers. In your case the speakers are high quality and highly detailed, especially with the RAAL tweeter, so they will reveal all the warts.
Hold off making any decisions until the speakers have broken in and you've moved into the final room you mentioned. Other than speakers I believe the room is the biggest factor in playback performance. Room size/shape, speaker/listener setup, acoustic isolation, acoustic treatment, and proper bass proprogation are all bigger factors IME than software, sources, amplification, power, or cables. Frankly if you can't develop a decent room, it's honestly better to have a modest in-room system and go for a good headphone system.
Yeah but I just wanted to be done with the speaker buying to keep these llllllooooonnnnnggggg term which is why. I just assumed that all great speakers would make everything just sound better.
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OK - I just dug out my old Sony (MOR) Cd player that I forgot that I had - and, yes a lot of the harshness went away - with some compromises in detail, etc. Just a quick but obvious initial impression from a couple of songs.
So, it looks like most(?) of the problem is the laptop>Muse USB-RCA converter>coax DAC input. Better cables will help somewhat - and then there's the room.
Thanks to everyone for the help! :thumb:
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In your picture I see hard floors and hard walls. That could contribute to harshness. An old soundman's trick, clap your hands: one sharp clap. What do you hear? Ringing? Slap echo? At a minimum you could buy a sheet of Owens Corning 702 insulation, the thicker the better, and cut triangles to fit in the corners, where high freqs tend to gather and ring. Get some thin cloth , in the color of your choice, and wrap the triangles using safety pins to bind the corners of the cloth in back of the triangles. Next screw picture hanging hooks into position to run rubber bands from the hooks to the safety pins, suspending the triangles 1-2 inches from the ceiling and walls. As the cloth and insulation weigh next to nothing, the hooks bear no real weight. If this is a rental, when you're done in the room and take the corner dampers down use toothpaste to hide the holes. I've done this in the past and never got caught.
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I think Konut is on to something with acoustic treatments, but doing it really right (GIK bass traps, reflection, diffusion, etc, etc) can get expensive.
Power conditioning could make a huge difference. The sound of digital products can get really skewed when there isn't clean power to drink from.
I just had a lesson in this recently, as I had been plugging my Class D amplifiers directly into the wall, based on the manufacturers recommendation. I had a friend come over, and pick up on the sound not being quite right, so for kicks we plugged the amplifiers into my power conditioner.
HUGE difference for the better. Way more tonality and texture, way less thin and dry. My power must be really horrible.
I know you said your budget is limited, maybe keep an eye out for a used PI Audio MagikBuss? That should be reasonably priced, and at least give you an idea if there is improvement to be had with power conditioning.
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OK - I just dug out my old Sony (MOR) Cd player that I forgot that I had - and, yes a lot of the harshness went away - with some compromises in detail, etc. Just a quick but obvious initial impression from a couple of songs.
So, it looks like most(?) of the problem is the laptop>Muse USB-RCA converter>coax DAC input. Better cables will help somewhat - and then there's the room.
Thanks to everyone for the help! :thumb:
Yup, check out the DIY streamer thread I linked to previously, it's probably your best bet for getting a source that doesn't add so much harshness without spending a small fortune. It's not easy to have a digital source that isn't fatiguing without spending a lot but this server/streamer/HQPlayer/Roon/DSD upsampling setup seems promising. That's part of the reason I think it's worth checking out the ifi DSD DAC, so you can upsample to DSD, IME DSD is easier to listen to vs PCM, which often has a hardness to the sound that is pretty annoying.
I also agree with the comments on break-in and room acoustics... be patient!
And power... if you want I have an older SurgeX I'd give you for the price of shipping.
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Hold off making any decisions until the speakers have broken in and you've moved into the final room you mentioned. Other than speakers I believe the room is the biggest factor in playback performance. Room size/shape, speaker/listener setup, acoustic isolation, acoustic treatment, and proper bass proprogation are all bigger factors IME than software, sources, amplification, power, or cables. Frankly if you can't develop a decent room, it's honestly better to have a modest in-room system and go for a good headphone system.
very well said JLM!
wait a minute ,source doesn't matter? you mean vinyl is IN not OUT for you!?..cheers :green:
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FYI - I'll be leaving this place on the 10th so treatments for this place aren't happening.
I'm not much of a headphone guy - even though I have about 4 pairs.
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I would echo the wait and see advice. Whether the speakers break in or your ears do, doesn't much matter, the experience is improved. And even in your new place, you can try some heavy blankets and/or big pillows and not spend any money on room treatments until you see if it works. When you see that it does, diy absorbers and diffusers are inexpensive and pretty easy to make. Anyway, hope things work out for you, they sure are nice looking speakers.
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very well said JLM!
wait a minute ,source doesn't matter? you mean vinyl is IN not OUT for you!?..cheers :green:
It all matters, but software/source/amplification/power/cables less so. The vinyl discussion is off topic, but here's hoping for a good 2016. :thumb:
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FYI - I'll be leaving this place on the 10th so treatments for this place aren't happening.
I'm not much of a headphone guy - even though I have about 4 pairs.
I did headphones in college - perfect for dorms (or wherever you can't achieve a decent in-room environment).
Your ruthlessly revealing speakers may end up being the most expensive component you ever bought. Ignorance can indeed be blissful.
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Your ruthlessly revealing speakers may end up being the most expensive component you ever bought. Ignorance can indeed be blissful.
Now you tell me!!! :green:
And even in your new place, you can try some heavy blankets and/or big pillows and not spend any money on room treatments until you see if it works. When you see that it does, diy absorbers and diffusers are inexpensive and pretty easy to make. Anyway, hope things work out for you, they sure are nice looking speakers.
I'm going to be moving into a small room in a house with other people and thin walls. So the stereo going in my personal office so there's going to be a limit to absorbers and diffusers there as well as a volume limit there though maybe on the weekends? But, for example, there's a tatoo parlor down the hall and they work late nights. As many people here, I just like buying new and better stuff....
For now, I'm just going for a Audioquest Jitterbug and one new set of StrWire cables - both coming in on Saturday and a SurgeX power protector thanks to DaveC113. After that nothing can happen until late February after my return.
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Time to crank up the Wayback Machine and go back 5 years to the dawn of digital music
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/3f/Waybackmachine3.png)
Jitter was just being recognized as having a detrimental effect, USB - SPDIF converters were rudimentary and the XMOS chip wasn't invented yet. One tried and true method of reducing jitter was a real long SPDIF cable or using a 75 ohm attentuator.
(http://www.wghwoodworking.net/audio/75_ohm_BNC_attenuator.jpg)
A good place to start is Pat's thread on Reflections and attenuators
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=90454.0
My thoughts regarding attenutors have their own thread
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=91512.0 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=91512.0)
Where am I going with this? Just maybe the BMC Pure DAC isn't doing a good job at jitter rejection. I no longer use the attenuators because in the last 5 years my electronics have changed but I still have them. Charlie if you would like to try them out I will send them to you for free, I have two: a 6 dB and a 10 dB. If interested PM your address.
Wayne
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All of the reasons for the added harshness at high volumes sometimes don't get around to heat related power compression.
I don't think I saw what type of system you used before the new Philharmonics. Perhaps they were able to handle the high sound levels a bit differently compared to your new systems.
I have heard many small-woofer two-ways that sound fantastic and do things large multi-way systems can't do... up to a point. Your new speakers seem to use high quality components but the limiting factor- despite he apparent driver quality- is a small woofer trying to make high sound levels. That voice coil can heat up significantly which increases the resistance, which reduces woofer output relative to the tweeter, which can also alter the crossover effect on the response. Therefore, the system balance tilts upward to the treble and the perceived hardness/treble emphasis. Maybe.
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Too good doesn't always equal revealing, or detailed. My favorite speakers are the ones that have great tonality/musicality/imaging. In my lexicon "resolution" means precise imaging that naturally enhances detail (like sharpening focus on a camera). In the single driver speaker world Lowthers are the detail kings. But it quickly gets to be too much (do I really want to know what type of resin or the brand of drums is being used?). Having all that information thrust upon me makes my brain work too hard, being "forced" into analysis (left side brain) mode, when what I want from music is an emotional release.
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Maybe too much detail means that the speakers are picking up sounds, such as the musician lightly breathing, which you wouldn't normally hear at the live performance. They could be giving too much weight to extraneous sounds verses the music itself.
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Hi,
Are you listening to audiophile recordings? If not try some and let us know if there is an improvement. I think your system has components that are well matched but 'rubbish in is rubbish out' with high quality systems.
Cheers Rod
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Maybe too much detail means that the speakers are picking up sounds, such as the musician lightly breathing, which you wouldn't normally hear at the live performance. They could be giving too much weight to extraneous sounds verses the music itself.
All of the reasons for the added harshness at high volumes sometimes don't get around to heat related power compression.
I don't think I saw what type of system you used before the new Philharmonics. Perhaps they were able to handle the high sound levels a bit differently compared to your new systems.
I have heard many small-woofer two-ways that sound fantastic and do things large multi-way systems can't do... up to a point. Your new speakers seem to use high quality components but the limiting factor- despite he apparent driver quality- is a small woofer trying to make high sound levels. That voice coil can heat up significantly which increases the resistance, which reduces woofer output relative to the tweeter, which can also alter the crossover effect on the response. Therefore, the system balance tilts upward to the treble and the perceived hardness/treble emphasis. Maybe.
This could be a possible explanation but as I said in post #36 (p.2) I pulled out an old-ish Sony CD player and compared the same song at higher levels and the high frequency harshness (at the expense of some detail) was lessened. I'm a 35 year veteran of listening to lots of equipment and I'm pretty good at picking things up. (Ask my friend mikeeastman here on AC and he'll tell ya!)
The thing here was that I never imagined that the computer and it's connections could make such a difference fed into a decent tube DAC. Though I do have to say it's a wonderful sounding system if it's not cranked up on most recordings.
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Hi,
Are you listening to audiophile recordings? If not try some and let us know if there is an improvement. I think your system has components that are well matched but 'rubbish in is rubbish out' with high quality systems.
Cheers Rod
Oh I've listened to quite a number of different recordings. The thing was that my old standbys (Dave Grusin Discovered Again - Sheffield Labs and a few others) that were great on previous systems were not on this system. I've had to go through many of my albums and find new great sounding recordings.
As I wrote in #36 - it's the source/computer connections then the IC's though far less so and only because of the source problems.
(And yes, the room is the second problem but again, I can't do anything about it which is why I listen 8' away pulled against the wall.
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Well, there goes the hardware eq option. What media player do you use?
OK - a few more minor changes. Some felt around the tweeters, that softened the harshness ever so slightly. Example, there's a metallic sssss sound on some recordings when someone sings "ch" (as in child). Another set of Straightwire cables cut out another small level of harshness - at the expense of some midrange smoothness and clarity compared to the Soundsilver cables
Also, I've never played with my JRiver DSP - EQ and room correction. Setting the room correction so at my 8 foot listening distance helped somewhat. If I drop the 12, 14 and 16K eq down more than 3db each that gets rid of the loud volume harshness but obviously at the expense of high frequency accuracy - (dull). So I've kind of compromised by setting them down about 1.5 db each.
I am beginning to suspect though that the problem that I am hearing could be all if not mostly the IC cables.
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OK - a few more minor changes. Some felt around the tweeters, that softened the harshness ever so slightly. Example, there's a metallic sssss sound on some recordings when someone sings "ch" (as in child). Another set of Straightwire cables cut out another small level of harshness - at the expense of some midrange smoothness and clarity compared to the Soundsilver cables
Also, I've never played with my JRiver DSP - EQ and room correction. Setting the room correction so at my 8 foot listening distance helped somewhat. If I drop the 12, 14 and 16K eq down more than 3db each that gets rid of the loud volume harshness but obviously at the expense of high frequency accuracy - (dull). So I've kind of compromised by setting them down about 1.5 db each.
I am beginning to suspect though that the problem that I am hearing could be all if not mostly the IC cables.
System synergy for sure... most 4N or lower purity silver wire adds some harshness but in the context of an overly warm system with speakers that aren't very detailed this can be a good thing. With those speakers harshness doesn't have a place to hide and at higher volumes some amount of glassiness or glare is just part of a ribbon tweeter. You might want to consider DIYing some IC cables using UPOCC copper wire.
The SurgeX will also remove another layer of harshness...
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The SurgeX will also remove another layer of harshness...
So I received it from Dave - (thanks for the deal - awesome! :thumb: ) and I've spent maybe about a half an hour with it not warmed up and it sure opened up the sound. (I never thought cables and electrical conditioning would make a difference but it does!) It wasn't so noticeable
until I reverted back to plugging my equipment back into the wall and the overall sound was just duller.
However! This is all good on the best sounding recordings at loud volumes (Fleetwood Mac - Warm Ways, Dave Grusin - Discovered Again). On some recordings (again we're talking loud), it seems to move the harshness to higher frequencies. So instead of "ch" sounds being harsh/tinny/metallic, it's the "s" sounds, making those recordings (i.e most of what I listen to :( ) difficult to listen to at loud levels.
The biggest difference was with the computer plugged into the SurgeX, it now sounds comparable to the Sony CD player.
Thanks again Dave - it's a keeper!
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The biggest difference was with the computer plugged into the SurgeX, it now sounds comparable to the Sony CD player.
Ah HAH!!! This is solid evidence of what a great many posts have been telling you all along in this thread. Power noise from your source is the key here. The best solution would be to spend some real money on a custom server solution with linear power supplies and designed to minimize internal EFI/RMI. Then your USB cable design wouldn't be super critical. Absent the funding for this kind of solution, you can try a number of band-aids.
Sources of noise to target:
1) noise from your laptop riding the 5V bus line in your USB cable and feeding that noise into your DAC
2) noise from your laptop riding the data lines in the USB cable and causing some havoc there
3) noise from your laptop riding the ground line in the USB cable and contributing to ground-plane noise that MAY be doing things in your DAC's processing of the signal
Strategies to consider:
A) Taping over the 5V pin on your USB cable (FREE) (assuming your DAC does not require the 5V). If your DAC does require the 5V handshake or power supply, then a used AQVOX product (~$100?), or USB Disruptor product (~$50 I think) will help (they provide a separate new 5V from their own power supply, substituting for the noisy 5V from your laptop). This addresses Source #1 above.
B) Uptone Audio Regen ($175 new, $150 or less used) unit will do all of the above in A), but will also clean up some of the noise in #'s 2 & 3 above through its reclocking circuits and resistors on the ground. For $175 this could be a remarkably effective product for your situation - and there might be some used ones available for cheaper on here. They seem to be popping up fairly frequently now.
C) Audioquest Jitterbug ($50 each) will benefit #'s 1, 2, and 3 above by filtering out a lot of the noise at the USB output from your laptop. It doesn't eliminate the noise, but will damp it down a great deal. I have even found great benefit from using two of them on my Auralic Aries with the high quality linear power supply.
Of course there are a great many other products out there, especially those from iFi and Schiit that also work to clean up noise on USB lines. I'm not as familiar with those, but I think they're a little pricier than the above, and often require adding another USB cable leg to your situation. The above strategies don't require any of that complexity, or at least have the necessary components included with them.
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Wow - that's a lot to digest!
I forgot to add in the last post - though I mentioned it a while ago in an earlier post - that I'm getting a Jitterbug. It should be in today.
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If you can tape over the 5V pin on your USB cable and get away with it on your DAC, I think doing so and using the Jitterbug will accomplish just about everything you can given your budget - as far as addressing the weaknesses of your source laptop goes.
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If you can solder, consider dampening the CMC on the SurgeX, it might remove the harsh sound.
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If you can tape over the 5V pin on your USB cable and get away with it on your DAC, I think doing so and using the Jitterbug will accomplish just about everything you can given your budget - as far as addressing the weaknesses of your source laptop goes.
I'll try that.
If you can solder, consider dampening the CMC on the SurgeX, it might remove the harsh sound.
Nope, can't. Don't have soldering equipment.
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If you can tape over the 5V pin on your USB cable and get away with it on your DAC, I think doing so and using the Jitterbug will accomplish just about everything you can given your budget - as far as addressing the weaknesses of your source laptop goes.
I tried taping it but the problem is that I have to use a MUSE USB DAC Sound Card/Optical Coaxial Decoder/USB to S/PDIF Converte (http://www.amazon.com/USB-DAC-PCM2704-Optical-Converter/dp/B0093KZTEA/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1452198771&sr=1-1&keywords=muse+mini+dac)r to hook up to my coax DAC and it needs the USB power.
I received the Jitterbug - and well, it's OK. It didn't make huge changes. It seems to smooth out the overall sound somewhat but on some recordings, it makes the sound seem harsher - but that is most likely because of slightly more clarity. I noticed on one Janis Ian recording that the electric bass sounds a little bit more like someone plucking the strings.
I really now think the next step(s) is the IC's. Right now, it's the Straightwire/Schiit Pyst usb>Muse>Soundsilver> DAC>Kabeldirect>pre>Pyst>amp/speakers.
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Since I've linked this today and I see that other people have read this, I'm updating it.
The IC's that I am using now are Grover Huffman EX+>Jitterbug/USB Regen Uptone/MuseUSB to S/PDIF Converter>Morrow MA-1>DAC>GH EX+>preamp>GH EX+>amp/speakers.
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How about an updated pic of your system and updated Listening impressions? It’s been whatt, 2+ years?
Best,
Anand.
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How about an updated pic of your system and updated Listening impressions? It’s been whatt, 2+ years?
Best,
Anand.
:o Right now, my stereo system office is an absolute mess! No pics for now! :lol:
hmm, I'll have to listen to it with an overall description in mind.
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Hi There
Based what i am seeing in your first picture and what your saying about your office
I would scrub any and all further purchases of more computer "Laboratory" fixes and deal with the room,
This is a wonderful speaker company, and the revelator a gorgeous famous speaker, rear firing into a room such as you have in picture,,,,, right side pic shelves are just gonna freak out the left side back wall waves, if i was called into do something about the bass i would refuse the job, cause to fix it would be a hatchet job on the over all system, as well computers and mega buck servers * are fun, but as posted here before and else where never have them connected to a real rig, and/or one with a ribbon except for fun, as they create come and go anomalies into infinity.
* Especially with racket producing small LED picture screens which will weird out your mids and up
GR
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Based what i am seeing in your first picture and what your saying about your office
I would scrub any and all further purchases of more computer "Laboratory" fixes and deal with the room,
GR
That first photo is no longer relevant. You are of course, mostly right - because the electronics and speakers could be better but again at a much higher cost. So much of it IS the room.
Cheers.
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I've been having similar issues with my Philharmonic BMRs. For me it definitely is the room. My living room is large, open with hardwood floors and 9ft ceilings. The RAAL tweeter's wide dispersion is putting too much high end energy in every direction, it's a bit of a treble overload despite being +\- 2db on and off axis. I took my entire setup upstairs and the change was incredible. The wide dispersion from the raal did some serious magic in the less reflective room. All of a sudden the sound was extending well beyond the speakers, the tonality was perfectly neutral. Not warm or cold. Many of the unlistenable songs were dead neutral, and I couldn't imagine them sounding better. Probably one of the best speakers I've ever heard. I am treble sensitive and so it was still too much for me, but the contrast was stark. I don't think neutral wide dispersion speakers do well in a reflective room. I dragged a bunch of my other "normal" dispersion speakers into the same room and the change in sound was much much smaller.
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