AudioCircle
Other Stuff => Archived Manufacturer Circles => AudioKinesis Loudspeakers => Topic started by: Duke on 3 Oct 2008, 04:40 am
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I have developed two new loudspeaker systems, both of which take advantage of the Swarm version 2.0 subwoofer system. When used as recommended the Swarm v2.0 offers a qualitative advantage over a pair of good conventional speakers in the bass region. The next step seemed logical: Develop high quality, high efficiency main speakers intended to only go as deep as needed to work well with the Swarm v2.0.
So without further ado, here are the results of that project. First, we have the Planetarium Alpha system:
(http://gallery.AudioAsylum.com/cgi/gi.mpl?u=2112&f=PlanetariumAlpha.jpg)
The boards you see under the speakers are there to make it easier for my brother to photoshop the image for the propaganda flyer I'll be handing out at RMAF. The greenish discoloration you see around the perimeter of the waveguide on the right-hand speaker is a reflection of the grass in my front yard. The front door was open, as I was trying to get as much ambient light as I could.
And here is a closeup of the Alpha module, 96 dB efficient and presenting a smooth, easy 8-ohm load, similar radiation pattern to the Jazz Modules. The 12" midwoofer is an Acoustic Elegance TD12-M:
(http://gallery.AudioAsylum.com/cgi/gi.mpl?u=2112&f=AlphaModule.jpg)
The next step was to do a Planetarium system with main speakers employing the controlled-pattern offset bipole configuration of the Dream Makers. That system is called the Planetarium Beta:
(http://gallery.AudioAsylum.com/cgi/gi.mpl?u=2112&f=PlanetariumBeta.jpg)
Below we have a closeup of the bipolar Beta module, which is also 96 dB efficient, but configured to present a smooth 16-ohm load. The block of wood you see underneath is not part of the speaker - once again, it's just there so the image can be photoshopped more easily later on:
(http://gallery.AudioAsylum.com/cgi/gi.mpl?u=2112&f=BetaModule.jpg)
And, here's a shot of the bass system, which will be offered separately as the Swarm v2.0. Typical in-room extension is down to about 20 Hz. The 1000-watt shelf-mount amplifier is not shown. The idea is to distribute the subwoofer modules asymmetrically around the room, resulting in more natural-sounding bass as the dissimilar room-response patterns of the four individual subs sum to an average that is much smoother than you would get with only one or two in-room bass sources:
(http://gallery.AudioAsylum.com/cgi/gi.mpl?u=2112&f=Swarm2.0.jpg)
Finally, who says you need a big room for a Planetarium system?? Sometimes I could swear the sound images even come from behind me!
(http://gallery.AudioAsylum.com/cgi/gi.mpl?u=2112&f=PlanetariumBetaDuke.jpg)
The Alpha is the more placement-flexible system, as the main speakers can be positioned very close to the room boundaries. The bipolar Beta system puts more energy out into the reverberant field which better approximates the soundfields we normally encounter at a live performance. The Beta modules should be placed several feet out from the wall behind the speakers, same as the Dream Makers, and the same as any fullrange dipole speaker like Maggies or Quads or SoundLabs. The Swarm v2.0 can be purchased separately and used with dipoles or high efficiency/limited bass speakers or whatever.
Tentative prices are $6500 for the Planetarium Alpha system; $10,000 for the Planetarium Beta system; and $2500 for the Swarm v2.0.
I will be showing both system at the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest, room 1100 (top floor of the Tower, in a corner).
Let me know if you have any questions.
Thanks for taking a look!
Duke
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:thumb:
Peace,
Lee
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Damn Duke - it's almost like you know what you're doing! I can't wait to hear your set-up (and meet ya face to face) next week !!
btw: hows the boy doing ?
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Duke,
These both look awesome, both in design and execution :thumb: Seems like a big hit in the making and I very much look forward to hearing them at RMAF.
When you priced these as "systems" does that mean it includes the Swarm and sub amp/xo?
Are the waveguides and hf drivers the same and/or similar to the Jazz Modules and Dream Makers?
Tom
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Duke:
Your new speakers look great and I look forward to hearing them at RMAF next week.
Ken
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Those look great Duke, I've got to find my way up there for sure. :thumb:
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Hey Duke,
I guess I can now say I got my Swarm v2.0. :lol: They came packed in crates built like tanks. I am still working on getting them set up with a pair of Soundlab A5's. In approximately 18' x 22' room the quad arrangement is loading the room much better than a pair of SVS cylinders. Faster too. The darker stain matches the speakers nicely, Duke. :thumb:
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Hi Duke --
Can't wait to hear them. I'll see you next week.
Regards,
John
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:drool: :drool: :drool:
That's all I can really say.
Best of luck to you, Duke. I really think you hit this one out of the park.
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Wow - thank you all for your enthusiastic support!
Zero, my son's doing much better - thanks.
Tom, you are correct - that's the same waveguide and compression driver as in the Jazz Modules and Dream Makers. The high-pass filter had to be modified a lot more than I expected; it wasn't nearly as simple as just changing the padding.
Also, I should have made it clear that the "system" price includes the Swarm v2.0 and the bass amplifier, which is a 1000 watt shelf-mount unit.
And Woodsyi, yes the gag order is rescinded. Thanks for your discretion, and glad to hear they're working well for you!
Duke
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outstanding! I dont even have to hear them to be impressed with the out of the box thinking and the visual execution. they probably sound good also. LOL
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Duke,
Looks like two killer systems. :thumb:
Bet my Atma-Sphere M-60's or MA-1's would sound pretty darn good driving either system. :drool:
Good luck at RMAF, I'll definitely be looking for reports on the room and your systems.
George
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Thanks, kbuzz! Out of one box... and into six!
Zybar, I'll be showing with an Atma-Sphere S-30 at RMAF (30 watt OTL tube amp, for those not familiar with). I'll post the impedance curve of the Alpha module in a separate thread, using it to illustrate some of my thinking on speaker/amplifier interaction.
Duke
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Zybar, I'll be showing with an Atma-Sphere S-30 at RMAF (30 watt OTL tube amp, for those not familiar with). I'll post the impedance curve of the Alpha module in a separate thread, using it to illustrate some of my thinking on speaker/amplifier interaction.
Given the impedance curve you posted and the highish output impedance of the Atma-Sphere amps that should be a nice match up. Really looking forward to hearing this as I really like what an OTL can do provide it has the right load. :thumb:
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Mike, the impedance curve of the Planetarium Beta main modules is almost the same shape as that of the Alpha modules, but ranges between 16 and 23 ohms (instead of 8 and 12 ohms) above 100 Hz.
I figure if I can make speakers that work well with Atma-Sphere amps at one extreme, and NuForce amps at the other, that leaves a whole lot of covered territory in between.
Also, my claimed efficiency is based on the Theile/Small parameters, and tends to be on the conservative side in comparison with some of the competition's claims. One of my customers is a single-ended triode amplifier manufacturer, and he thinks my 92 dB speakers are more like 96 dB. On another forum, someone with 101 dB rated speakers heard a pair of my 92 dB speakers in his system, and wrote: "I found that while the Audiokinesis was not *rated* the same efficiency, it *behaved* as if it was just as efficient, but with greater bass impact and more definition". Okay that pair (the discontinued Stormbringers) probably could have been rated at 93 dB, but still you wouldn't expect it to be subjectively comparable in efficiency to a speaker rated 8 or 9 dB higher. Or, maybe there was some enthusiasm and optimism coming into play in both of these cases.
Duke
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Holie Smokes!
Now I know why people were so excited about what they couldn't talk about. 8)
I don't know if I want to take on subs again. :duh:
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Hi Duke, those new speakers look great! What is the downpoint of each one without the swarms? Also any chance of ever offering a kit?
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Hey Bill,
These systems aren't replacements for the Jazz Modules and Dream Makers - they're just me lurching off in a slightly different direction. I had these subs, you see, and nothing of my own to use them with...
Pbrstreetgang, the Alpha modules have a calculated -3 dB anechoic of about 90 Hz and -6 dB at about 70 Hz. With some boundary reinforcement, they'll go a bit lower in-room.
The Beta modules are probably -3 dB at 80 and -6 dB at 65 Hz, due to reinforcement from the wrap-around energy of the rear-facing woofer. But since the Betas are expected to be placed out in the room a bit further, they normally will get less benefit from boundary reinforcement.
I did not design either one with sufficient bass extension to stand really alone, though Alphas on low stands in corners might approach the lower 50's. The stand-alone counterparts would be the Jazz Modules and Dream Makers, both of which trade off some efficiency relative to the Planetariums in order to get good bass extension.
I probably won't offer a kit. I suggest you look at Earl Geddes' kits. At one time I assembled and sold Summas for Earl, and my respect for the man and his products and contributions is enormous. My loudspeaker designs draw heavily on Earl's work - I could not begin to do what I do without the knowledge that he has contributed. If my speakers sound good, I have Earl to thank for that (I do my own crossovers, but mostly using techniques that I learned from Earl). If I did kits, they would not have the price/performance value that his kits do.
http://www.gedlee.com/Summa.htm
Also, frankly I hesitate to make my crossover design readily available. The crossover is where a speaker succeeds or fails - much moreso than all these other things that are more exciting to talk about (waveguides, efficiency, exotic magnets, etc - which may give a speaker potential, but are wasted if the crossover design is mediocre). At one show I had a particular group from another country visit my room more than once to try to talk me into selling them one or two crossovers. I am convinced that they intended to copy my speaker overseas.
Also there are a few little things I do to modify this or that part which I believe make a small but worthwhile difference, and I'd like to keep those things to myself at least for now.
Duke
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Duke,
Any thoughts about licensing the foam waveguide insert for your designs?
Tom
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TomS,
Good question.
A more likely scenario would be me one day introducing a different model that uses a fairly large Geddes waveguide with the foam insert.
Duke
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Duke,
How does the Swarm connect to the system?
Line level?
Speaker level?
Thanks,
George
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Zybar, the shelf-mount amp I use only has line-level inputs, unfortunately.
One solution, if you don't have pre-amp outputs, is this device from Audio Magus:
http://www.audio-magus.com/SubLine_Subwoofer_Connector_p/slv2.htm
That's probably what I'll be using at RMAF this weekend.
Here's the amp that I use to drive the Swarm:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=300-810&ctab=6#Tabs
Duke
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Hi Duke:
If I remember right, you used to sell SuondLabs. Can you describe your new speakers compared to the Sound Labs, as well as your other two speaker designs? I am also interested how they portray a believable soundstage including floor to ceiling realism.
Thanks,
Rocket_Ronny
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For those in the know (including Duke of course), how do these speakers work for classical -- especially piano. Also, what kind of an amp would you recommend? I'm currently using a Jolida 1701 integrated tube amp.
And, last how do these compare to Totem Arros.
Thanks all!
-Tim
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I did listen to Dukes (His Royal Highness Supreme Emperor and Dictator-For-Life the One, the Only Duke) new speaker system. WOW! He and his wife were kind enough to let me play a few tracks. After playing Take My Breath Away (Queen) I was breathless. :D We played them at concert levels and not once did the speakers REALLY care. It sounded awesome. If you haven't had the pleasure of hearing them, do yourself a favor and plan on doing it. Imaging, soundstage............all what it's suppose be like. It's just a matter of taste.
enjoy-
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Well done Duke.... :thumb:
I listened to the Planetarium Beta system at RMAF....really sounded nice !! 8)
The main Beta's with the Swarm integrated well....a very full and open sound.
I think Lori was surprised to hear me spinning Frank Sinatra....and zydeco. :lol:
Good luck Duke and Lori with the new speakers.... :beer:
Chris
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Hey Duke,
Not to pile on, but great job with the new speakers... I really enjoyed listening to them on my multiple trips to your room, and thanks for taking so much time to talk shop with me -- I really appreciate it.
Regards,
John
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Wow, I totally missed all this. :duh: I guess I should use the default view in AC more often (I usually only view a few circles).
I can say that if I didn't build all my own stuff, the alpha system would be the system I'd buy. (that is high praise from me.)
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This new system must sound great. The design and execution look real cool. Decent price too. Good work Duke :thumb:
Anand.
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Did anyone hear,, and care to comment on Duke's Swarm System last weekend @ RMAF? :o
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Robin,
There are some posts about it in the members report on rmaf thread.
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Robin,
There are some posts about it in the members report on rmaf thread.
Thanks Mike, I probably already read them but I suffer from a lifetime of memory loss abuse. aa
I'll recyle the thread. :lol:
Cheers,
Robin
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Thanks Mike, I probably already read them but I suffer from a lifetime of memory loss abuse. aa
The 70's were hard on my brain cells... :)
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Thank you all for your kind posts about my speakers.
Jason, I'll be sending a link to your post in this thread to people who inquire about my systems. That's far better than ad copy! Thank you.
Satfrat, it actually wasn't until Sunday afternoon that I feel like I had the Swarm adjusted correctly. Before that, I had seriously underestimated how deep the Planetarium Beta modules went all by themselves, with the low damping factor Atma-Sphere amps and inherently bass-heavy room. So up until then, I had way too much overlap between subs and mains, and not enough sub output down in the deep bass (below 30 Hz). Once I cranked the low-pass crossover frequency down nearly to its minimum I was able to raise the level of the subs a bit and get a considerable improvement.
Anand, I presume you can see Earl's influence throughout my system. Neither system would begin to exist without Earl, as I draw very heavily on concepts that either originated with or were optimized by him. Of course my systems do differ from Earl's in several significant ways, but on the other hand what would be the point in selling clones?
Great seeing you again Chris, along with a fair number of the New York posse and a fellow Cajun!
John/Nullspace, it was great to meet you. I don't know how I was so sure that was you when we first met, as apparently we'd never met before. Maybe I just happened to get a fairly accurate mental picture beforehand.
Thanks for taking the time to come by, Mike - from what I understand, you were quite busy. I appreciate your putting me on your shortlist of rooms to visit.
And, thanks for the vote of confidence, Joshk! Obviously, you have impeccable taste in loudspeakers!
Duke
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Duke,
Can you please explain where your designs and goals differ from that of Geddes?
Were there any specific areas which you felt needed improvement and if so how did you go about doing this? As you well know, Geddes is a pretty complete thinker.
Thanks.
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Thank you all for your kind posts about my speakers.
Satfrat, it actually wasn't until Sunday afternoon that I feel like I had the Swarm adjusted correctly. Before that, I had seriously underestimated how deep the Planetarium Beta modules went all by themselves, with the low damping factor Atma-Sphere amps and inherently bass-heavy room. So up until then, I had way too much overlap between subs and mains, and not enough sub output down in the deep bass (below 30 Hz). Once I cranked the low-pass crossover frequency down nearly to its minimum I was able to raise the level of the subs a bit and get a considerable improvement.
Duke
Well that's a damn shame Duke, hope you have better luck with both the room tuning and gathering some incoming reviews on these Swarm incorporated systems. :thumb:
Cheers,
Robin
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Satfrat, yeah I feel like a real bonehead not getting my subwoofer system set right until the third day of the show! Apparently some folks liked it anyway, as I overheard some favorable comments about the bass. But... it coulda been better.
Goshkers, the models I build that have a different goal from Earl's speakers are my bipolars - namely, the Dream Makers and the Planetarium Beta system. With these models, I seek to put considerably more energy into the reverberant field, and Earl does not agree with this approach.
My monopole speakers are a lot closer to Earl's designs. The Jazz Modules differ in that they go deep enough in the bass to not call for subwoofers, which may be more practical for some people. The Planetarium Alpha system with its monopole mains and four small subs is conceptually pretty darn close to what Earl is doing - and he has noticed that as well. Of course we use different components in our speakers, so once we get down to the details we have made different choices.
Duke
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If I remember right, you used to sell SoundLabs. Can you describe your new speakers compared to the Sound Labs, as well as your other two speaker designs? I am also interested how they portray a believable soundstage including floor to ceiling realism...
Ronny
A year ago heard Jazz Modules at Duke’s; during the summer heard JMs in SF at home of an AC member w/ insane Jolida Music Envoy monoblocs w/ B52 (yes, THAT B52) radio transmitter output tube (tubes as big as my head; no nothing is that big). A couple days after RMAF Duke delivered two Alpha’s at my place (my sub system is custom, 4x 1cf sealed 10s driven by the same amp Duke employs). A few days ago I visited Duke’s & heard the seven-piece Beta system.
I’ve auditioned the larger Sound Labs several times including at Duke's, the best sounding of which was Crump’s setup at THE Show Las Vegas shortly before Bob passed away. Speakers were placed about mid-point in the room leaving little space for seating. Bob used the Blowtorch pre & a pair of Curl’s Parasound JC-1s (ran hot as a mutha). Played my great-sounding jazz/blues piano by Ray Bryant, Somewhere In France. Image was maybe a little too large but this was not a distraction; in every other way list all your positive listening adjectives.
I prefer the image density on the AK systems more than the stats. The stat image is more transparent, but I personally view this as a negative whereas obviously some have the inverse response. One may prefer the floor to ceiling image/stage of the stat or AK depending on the room & the program IMO. Smaller scale program probably favors AK, larger scale the stats, but we’re getting awfully picky now. In every way I can imagine the AK bass w/ the $2500 STORM v2.0 is preferred. Details concerning the bass:
I’m 54, musician, assitant engineered & programmed synthesizer at the Sausalito Record Plant, been doing this since a teenager. Have auditioned the following among other speakers known for great bass: Infinity IRS III ($65k late-‘80s dollars, four 7’ tall rosewood towers) properly setup in the Tiburon home of the owner of Landmark Cards & Calendars. CES setup by the designers of many cost-no-object sub systems including humoungous stereo towers w/ four to eight drivers per side. Linkwitz’ $15-20k commercial dipole systems. VMPS discontinued SuperTower III SRE w/ stereo sub towers, each tower 400 lbs, 5x 12s w/ staggered resonance points. Owned the best 2006 Sunfire Signature sub w/ automated digital EQ & owned several VMPS subs & the VMPS SuperTower/R SE (dual 15s, 10 midbass). My last room had the equivalent of about $6k worth of acoustic soffit installed to tame bass modes. Also heard the superb $100k YG Acoustics Anat Reference system (Yoav is a great guy, very down-to-earth, worth hearing if setup correctly).
Duke’s latest SWARM v2.0 equals or exceeds the best sub performance I know of. You name the quality, it’s there in spades. Slam, low bass cutoff, power, etc. In pure musicality, pitch definition, transparency, realism, portraying differences in recording venues, this system probably sets the world standard. I’ve played electric bass; the acoustic guitar I sold last winter was a Martin HD-28LSV (purchased from Dave “The Ghost” Caspar of the Oakland Raiders at his home in his trophy room). There's a nice Chang grand upstairs. The capability of v2.0 to flatten the room’s bass modes blows away the above described soffit of my last room. I had to leave that soffit behind. I could pickup & carry the sum total five pieces of Duke’s v2.0 in two trips in my hands from Duke’s room to my car (wish I thought of that when he wasn’t looking!) Each of Duke’s subs is only about 1cf. The amp is of moderate size/weight.
Duke’s subwoofer philosophy may seem strange to the uninitiated, who might view four subs as about three too many. To them I reply: “Oh, really?” Take a little peak over at the circle for room acoustic modifications & read the pages about people trying to control bass modes. Duke’s philosophy, IMO, completely eliminates the need for any other contraption to flatten your modes. The automated digital EQ of my Sunfire Signature sub was almost completely worthless (in performance) compared to Duke’s, which costs less.
One of the problems w/ acoustic absorption to flatten bass modes is that reflectivity in the bass range is a necessary ingredient for maximum realism. To the extent acoustic absorption is employed to flatten a bass mode realism is minimized. In other words, fixing the mode in this way replaces one problem w/ another. Note the sense of “surround”, “elasticity” & "liquid" effect in the bass range the next time you visit a large room like a theater; w/ a good reproduction system the bass is transparently integrated into the soundfield w/ the rest of the music. Compare the above qualities immediately on your home system upon your return. The difference you will properly notice is that of signals below 200 Hz being reproduced in a small room (unnatural, unmusical, modal problems) vs. the natural quality of a large room. Once you tune in to this phenomena you can not go back; this lack of realism in the bass range will become intolerable (you've been warned).
IMO one brief listen to Duke’s mono v2.0 completely obliterates the myth of stereo subwoofer's advantage. Listeners would immediately notice the greater power, presence & lower cutoff of the v2.0 (4x 8" drivers) vs. the earlier 6.5" drivers.
The only thing I’ve heard previously that may rival the v2.0 is the largest stereo tower subs w/ multiple drivers, extending from the floor close to the ceiling. Such a multiple driver array minimizes what is often the single worst mode, being the floor to ceiling (v2.0 mimics this effect but in a different way). Such subs create their own physical acoustic, their own multiple modes, & are far more costly, heavy, physically obtrusive, & in no way desirable except for the visible “size” impact, for those needing that.
Cost no object subs & fullrange speakers are priced in the stratosphere. Check the mass of the bass drivers employed in cost no object single-subs & fullrange speakers. IMHO the v2.0 is preferable to any system w/ a smaller number of close-spaced woofers, sub or fullrange, regardless of cost, mass, size or type of driver loading. The $100k YG Acoustics Anat Reference sounded great, & the v2.0 was far better. (Yoav mentioned they had modal problems to work around in his CES room, something the SWARM is designed to easily solve).
The only unknown to me is maximum output, as I didn't test that in a (large) domestic room. Duke would almost certainly underestimate this spec if one inquired; meaning he'd be the last one to overestimate the output if a customer had specific SPL needs. Without having discussed this w/ Duke I'd estimate one could simply add more subs & check w/ Duke for proper wiring to maintain an adequate load for the amp. Remember the subs are only 1cf each & take up little space.
...how do these speakers work for classical -- especially piano. Also, what kind of an amp would you recommend? I'm currently using a Jolida 1701 integrated tube amp.
-Tim
Tim
I don’t think AK favor one music format over another. They are especially amenable to tubes because of the flat impedance curve. Further, they couple superbly to OTL because of high-sensitivity & again, the flat impedance curve. Both Planetarium systems are especially good for tubes because they rolloff around 80 Hz, below which tubes are generally at their weakest because they make less current to control woofers.
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Killer post!!! :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
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Wow, THANK YOU Jim! I get to believing my own propaganda, which can be a dangerous thing - it's very encouraging to read that apparently I'm still barking up the right trees. I appreciate your ears (Jim's are much better than mine) as well as your taking the time to write your impressions in detail. And of course, your impeccable taste in loudspeakers is obvious to one and all!
I think you give me a bit too much credit. "Duke's philosophy" is really "Earl Geddes' philosophy, as implemented by Duke". And, it's pretty darn close to Todd Welti's philosophy as well (move my subs a foot or three this way or that and you have a symmetrical Welti multisub configuration).
Duke
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Well, there's a book that state's there is nothing new under the sun...
BTW, what time are we meeting for that steak dinner at Blackstone Monday? Ooops, I should have put that in a PM, sorry!
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I wanted to add another comparison for those familiar w/ the sound of the $100k+ MBL 101. Usually MBL has the volume too high for my liking as shows; CES '06 they were tolerable. Listeners seem to universally notice the unique & incredible wraparound stage effect; the imaging is good even while the stage seems of almost infinite size. To a lesser degree the bipolar Planetarium Beta system (includes v2.0 sub) created a similar effect, especially down into the bass range.
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Thanks Jim for that comprehensive post.
Rocket_Ronny