AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Enclosures => Topic started by: ricardojoa on 23 Nov 2012, 09:01 am
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Just curious why is almost very speaker made is front firing? Why isnt omni populars, regarless of women? :green:
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Women.
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I'm not sure, although one of these days I'll build some for my rear channel drivers.
Neat concept though, maybe they're just too "odd" for most folks?
Bob
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Decware reintroduce their hr1, which has the midbass and tweeter forward firing bleding with a omni driver on top and passive radiator for tuning the bass. I really think is a really cool design. A design like this takes effort and experiments. At almost 4900 i thought they are a bit expensive considering the cost of the forward drivers which arent super expensive as some other $4000+ speakers.
Too bad is that there isnt alot info on this.
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I think it's a design philosophy that will come full circle again as there are a few driver changes made. The industry has a way of moving on to the latest greatest and forgets some of the cool things that got it here. Personally I like listening to true omni directionals.
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Because the all omnis are expensive, even the fullrange Ohm Walsh were priced in excess of $7000, now moded and rebate to $6500.
http://www.ohmacoustics.com/productline.cfm
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Decware reintroduce their hr1, which has the midbass and tweeter forward firing bleding with a omni driver on top and passive radiator for tuning the bass. I really think is a really cool design.
Richard, this highlights the problem well. The physical really real world definition of an "omni" vs what the market perceives as "omni". What you described above is anything but "omni", except at certain frequencies (can't find any specs), which, if low, describes about 95% of all speakers. That would make my M1 an "omni" also. :wink:
True omnis (and dipoles, etc) don't exist, though speaker designs described as such do. Any speaker "omni" directional at HF (say >1khz) will mandate placement minimally 3' away from walls to provide sufficient reflected delay time and prevent spatial smearing. Hence their non-popularity. They have to be well out into the room and that proves domestically unacceptable in most households.
cheers,
AJ
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Leaving WAF out of it, I think it comes down to room shape and space. All other things being equal, omni's like more breathing room from rear and side walls, and most don't want their speakers out in the room as it is, with standard speakers.
Energy and Mirage made many omni speakers in the 90's, I have a set of their bookshelf omni's (Mirage Omni 60) in the basement right now. T
hey were a nice affordable solution (I think new they ran $500, I borrowed them off a friend) when I moved away from OB last year.
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Decware reintroduce their hr1, which has the midbass and tweeter forward firing blending with an omni driver on top and passive radiator for tuning the bass. I really think is a really cool design. A design like this takes effort and experiments. At almost 4900 i thought they are a bit expensive considering the cost of the forward drivers which arent super expensive as some other $4000+ speakers.
Too bad is that there isn't a lot info on this.
Great speakers, I think the price also reflects the labor involved in building the cabinet (EDIT the driver on top is rebuilt into a radial) and the quality of sound.
They had been being sold as Turning Point Audio* HR1, now called The Zen Omni, not a lot of these out there, but those that have them love 'em. As mentioned make sure you can place them a few feet from the walls.
*Decware speaker builder and designer of some models
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True omnis (and dipoles, etc) don't exist, though speaker designs described as such do.
:scratch: You got me there.
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:scratch: You got me there.
AJ is going all technical on us, when in fact most people could care less.
Most of the designs that use these names (omni, bipole, dipole. ob) sound different than box speakers with front firing drivers and that really is the point.
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Richard, this highlights the problem well. The physical really real world definition of an "omni" vs what the market perceives as "omni". What you described above is anything but "omni", except at certain frequencies (can't find any specs), which, if low, describes about 95% of all speakers. That would make my M1 an "omni" also. :wink:
True omnis (and dipoles, etc) don't exist, though speaker designs described as such do. Any speaker "omni" directional at HF (say >1khz) will mandate placement minimally 3' away from walls to provide sufficient reflected delay time and prevent spatial smearing. Hence their non-popularity. They have to be well out into the room and that proves domestically unacceptable in most households.
cheers,
AJ
Well i cant log in with the name Richard, so i dont think im Richardo.
Anyway, that particular hr1 is kind a hybrid. Based on decware discription, when comparing to a front firing speaker, omnis usually doesnt have that prominant mid.
Anyway, im not sure if a omni speaker really nneds to pull out a few feets from the back wall like some open baffle, as the omni driver actually fires upwards and will get much less reflection from the front wall.
Im still seeking a speaker that can offer a large soundstage that can fit in a small room.
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Great speakers, I think the price also reflects the labor involved in building the cabinet and the quality of sound.
They had been being sold as Turning Point Audio* HR1, now called The Zen Omni, not a lot of these out there, but those that have them love 'em. As mentioned make sure you can place them a few feet from the walls.
*Decware speaker builder and designer of some models
Have you had the chance to hear those? I thought that they arent as fuzzy like OB that needs to be pull out. My listen distance from wall to wall is only 11.5 feet, my speakers are about 10 inches from the wall. i have tried pulinng them out like 3 feet and in allhonesty they sounded acward, it has no depth.
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I had a pair that unfortunately I had to sell (June '11) and I have listened to them a couple of other times at Decfest.
While it is true that you can place these closer to the walls because of the hybrid design, I still feel to get the best out of them they need to be out a little further than more conventional front firing speakers.
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i dont think im Richardo.
Well I do think you are indeed Ricardo. I will refer to you as such henceforth. :D
Anyway, that particular hr1 is kind a hybrid. Based on decware discription, when comparing to a front firing speaker, omnis usually doesnt have that prominant mid.
Without the driver bandwidths (XO frequencies), impossible to say exactly...but exactly as I said, it appears to be frequency dependent "omni".
Anyway, im not sure if a omni speaker really nneds to pull out a few feets from the back wall like some open baffle, as the omni driver actually fires upwards and will get much less reflection from the front wall.
Perhaps you could define what you understand "omni" to mean? Omni by definition, means the source radiates equally in all directions. Which means that there would be equal reflections from the front and side walls if the speaker were equidistant from them. In the case of the speaker you cite, this holds true.
Im still seeking a speaker that can offer a large soundstage that can fit in a small room.
Several ways that can be accomplished.
cheers,
AJ
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:scratch: You got me there.
They are more "omnipolar" and "dipolar" than true omnipole/dipole/etc. in reality, frequency dependent. A traditional box speaker is omnipolar at LF and monopolar at HF.
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They may be more popular for lovers of orchestral music made on location, like me, but less so for others cause according to a review I read recently of MBL omni-directional speakers (pictured), center imagery may be perceived as not focused enough or too laid back. Might be a dream come true for opera lovers.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=71255)
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The top radial driver is run full range on the Zen Omni.
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They may be more popular for lovers of orchestral music made on location, like me, but less so for others cause according to a review I read recently of MBL omni-directional speakers (pictured), center imagery may be perceived as not focused enough or too laid back. Might be a dream come true for opera lovers.
That's one of the nice things about these hybrids, they give you a little of both.
But, as is true with all speakers, they are not for everyone.
Edit: deleted image
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Im still seeking a speaker that can offer a large soundstage that can fit in a small room.
Then you are barking up the wrong tree, IMO. Omni/dipole/etc need space! A small room will make acoustic problems worse, I think in a small room listening close to the speakers directionality may be a better solution. If you are looking for a good soundstage check out the Omega speakers with the 4.5" driver. With the right amp, they completely disappear and work great in small rooms/nearfield.
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Put your speakers into an equidistant triangle and see what happens. Out from the walls a ways. Your seat, too.
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I think the theory/concept is interesting, but everytime I've heard omni-speakers, i've been underwhelmed. I heard great Duevels at my friend's place and they were damn good but still not very focused compared to more traditional speakers. Good, but not swaying for me.
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From Andrew Welker...Axiom Audio:
Omnidrectional speakers are probably one of the more challenging types of designs that a loudspeaker designer can undertake. Part of the reason is that you have to deal with a lot of factors in terms of how the speaker interacts with the room, and how the different parts of the speaker interact with one another.
One good question that I often get is “Why omnidirectional in the first place? What’s wrong with a conventional forward-radiating speaker?” And the answer is nothing. Axiom builds a lot of very successful models, including the award-winning M80, that are forward-radiating speakers. [Forward radiating speakers] perform extremely well, they image extremely well, and they can be totally neutral if properly designed.
What omnidirectional does is it just opens up the sense of space and proportions of instruments and singers and things that are going on in the musical stage. It also – for me, one of the most important aspects, and one of the most enjoyable – is the fact that omnidirectional speakers seem to have a sound that emanates from nowhere and everywhere at the same time. So the speakers essentially disappear. When that’s done properly it really allows you to think for a second that you’re now taking part in a live musical experience, rather than listening to a reproduction, and that’s extremely compelling.
Sound radiates from the front and back of the LFR1100s
The issue with omnidirectional speakers as I mentioned is that they’re tricky in terms of the interactions. One of the basic interactions which we can measure in a space like inside an anechoic chamber that we’re in right now, is how the front and the rear drive units interact with one another. There’s some issues with cancellation between those drive units and interaction between them, without even bringing the room and reflections into the equation. The only way that we’ve been able to overcome that is through the use of a circuit that incorporates a DSP or Digital Signal Processor. This allows us to tailor everything that’s going on with the front drive units and the rear drive units independent of one another. That allows us to overcome any issues of negative interaction between the parts. This allows you to get a much more neutral tonal balance than a lot of omnidirectional and bipolar-type speakers that are on the market.
The other question I get very often is “What happens when you put this sort of speaker in different rooms? What happens if I place it fairly close to the room boundaries or the back wall.” Admittedly things will change depending on where the speaker is positioned, but that holds true for any loudspeaker. If you’ve ever moved your speakers around and played with positioning, you know that it impacts the sound. This sort of loudspeaker is no different.
One of the things we’ve been able to address is the rear wall positioning. Again, that’s through the use of the DSP. If your speaker has to be placed fairly close to the back wall, we’re able to compensate so that you still get the spacious full effect of the LFR speaker even though it’s not maybe ideally positioned out in the room a couple of feet from the rear wall.
So those are a couple of areas that we’ve managed to address that really propel the performance of the LFR beyond any of our other products.
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A Boes 901 would be that kind of speaker right?
:smoke:
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I'm one of a very small number of people who own a pair of GR Research's omnidirectional O-3's. Despite their great sound, Danny says they are difficult to sell because the design is unusual. Frankly, if Danny didn't design this speaker, I would have no interest in them whatsoever. Drivers mounted on top of speakers are kinda freaky, IMO. They are used in a 13' x 20' x 8' room along the short wall with about three feet from the side and back walls. More space would be ideal, but these speakers replaced a pair of VMPS floor standers and easily outperformed them. According to Danny, they sound virtually identical to his open baffle designs that use the same drivers (except for the bass, of course).
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I can't recall a truly omni-directional design. In theory a cube with very small (no beaming of high frequencies) or coincendental drivers on each face all operating in phase hanging from a string (away from walls as mentioned above) would be one possible option (but very limited bass).
But is omni-directional how it was miked/mixed? As mentioned above much classical music is (but only makes sense if the number of mikes equals the number of speakers). Most musical genres are recorded close miked. Would you want a huge soundstage filled with a voice? Depending again on how it's recorded, what type of imaging (size, location) can you expect with a true omni-directional design?
IMO it's best to use the same playback setup as used in the studio (apart from wanting to enjoy versus "over analyze" the performance). That would typically be 2-way active monitors used in a nearfield setup.
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I used to own some Ohm Walsh F's.
I think there's a lot to be said for omnis and near-omnis (much of B&O's current stuff, or Mirage IIRC). Though I can't help but think we can get 90% of the way there by making sure we have good off-axis performance and mirroring drivers on the front and back (above the baffle-point at least).
I'm seeing a good chunk of that being done by many speaker manufacturers.
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I can't recall a truly omni-directional design. In theory a cube with very small (no beaming of high frequencies) or coincendental drivers on each face all operating in phase hanging from a string (away from walls as mentioned above) would be one possible option (but very limited bass).
But is omni-directional how it was miked/mixed? As mentioned above much classical music is (but only makes sense if the number of mikes equals the number of speakers). Most musical genres are recorded close miked. Would you want a huge soundstage filled with a voice? Depending again on how it's recorded, what type of imaging (size, location) can you expect with a true omni-directional design?
IMO it's best to use the same playback setup as used in the studio (apart from wanting to enjoy versus "over analyze" the performance). That would typically be 2-way active monitors used in a nearfield setup.
JLM - Which 2-way active monitors are you using?
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JLM, I believe that the floor standing MBL's are true omni's
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=71298)
and that there have been others.
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My listen distance from wall to wall is only 11.5 feet, my speakers are about 10 inches from the wall. i have tried pulinng them out like 3 feet and in allhonesty they sounded acward, it has no depth.
Im still seeking a speaker that can offer a large soundstage that can fit in a small room.
The Audio Note J would be perfect for your room. These sound great placed about a foot away from the rear wall, with each speaker nearly touching its respective side wall, and with the pair toed in to cross just in front of your lap. The soundstage is tall and wide, and yes you can stand up or move around a bit and the image stays where it is. There is depth, but you don't feel like you are being all wrapped up in it. Bass and dynamics are surprisingly good for such a pedestrian looking two-way "box". No sub required.
You should be able to get good results with most wide baffle two ways of appropriate size for your room, but the J would be awesome in a small room like yours. Try using the side walls as your anchor.
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I'm one of a very small number of people who own a pair of GR Research's omnidirectional O-3's. Despite their great sound, Danny says they are difficult to sell because the design is unusual. Frankly, if Danny didn't design this speaker, I would have no interest in them whatsoever. Drivers mounted on top of speakers are kinda freaky, IMO. They are used in a 13' x 20' x 8' room along the short wall with about three feet from the side and back walls. More space would be ideal, but these speakers replaced a pair of VMPS floor standers and easily outperformed them. According to Danny, they sound virtually identical to his open baffle designs that use the same drivers (except for the bass, of course).
Virtue is now selling a Danny Richie designed stand mounted omni of sorts. Go to the Virtue Audio circle site to check them out.
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Virtue is now selling a Danny Richie designed stand mounted omni of sorts. Go to the Virtue Audio circle site to check them out.
Hmmmm.... interesting.
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I own Lineaums Towers....with 360 degree Lineaum tweeter atop the short 32" box.
They sound great - have dusted off several (much) higher priced spread over the years - but, they need to be WELL away from the wall to breathe and sound their best. My wife hates 'em despite them being small footprint and mostly unobtrusive except for the fact that they're not flush with the wall to sound their best.
(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Linaeum-8-6-Two-Way-Floor-Standing-Tower-Speakers-pair-/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/$T2eC16Z,!)kE9s4,BEDtBQez45ybj!~~60_35.JPG)
So, I really think it's mostly about commercial viability: most women are going to hate omni's due to spacing constraints, they look a tad weird with a HF emitter atop the enclosure, and then there is all manner of room considerations to wade thru (windows, in particular, in back of omni speakers bounce all manner of stray sound about)
It's hard enough to be successful selling speakers - better to provide front firing speakers that have 'universal' appeal.
John
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So, I really think it's mostly about commercial viability: most women are going to hate omni's due to spacing constraints,...
It's hard enough to be successful selling speakers - better to provide front firing speakers that have 'universal' appeal.
Agreed. My wife approves of my omnis because of its small footprint, but more importantly, the walnut baffle blends well with the room's decor.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=71301)
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JLM - Which 2-way active monitors are you using?
I've heard several (frankly the professionals have always left me very cold and soulless), but I keep looking. One that is quite intriguing is the Munro Egg 150 ($2600/pair, 45-20,000 Hz, 2-way, 18 inches tall). They are housed in a thoroughly designed resin ported egg shaped cabinets that use external chip amps and are noted for clarity, quality bass, superior imaging, and being very musical. Unfortunately the closest for me to audition are a 4 hour drive away.
I currently run old I. M. Fried Model A's that I scored from a liquidation sale in the living room (casual listening system), Ascend Acoustics CBM-170 in the under utilized 5.1 family system, and Bob Brines' Fostex F200A based MLTL single driver designs in the main system (sorry can't keep up with the renaming of his speakers). Of course a single driver design is active by default.
The concepts behind active designs are very cool.
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JLM, I believe that the floor standing MBL's are true omni's
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=71298)
and that there have been others.
Yes, those would be close. But they aren't radiating straight up or down. And I'm not sure how uniform the distribution of various frequencies would be.
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Then you are barking up the wrong tree, IMO. Omni/dipole/etc need space! A small room will make acoustic problems worse, I think in a small room listening close to the speakers directionality may be a better solution. If you are looking for a good soundstage check out the Omega speakers with the 4.5" driver. With the right amp, they completely disappear and work great in small rooms/nearfield.
I have heard omega speakers before but forgot which model, but ibelieve it was one with small driver, paired with some tube 300b amp and they sounded a little shouty. I can definetly give a next try.
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Yes, those would be close. But they aren't radiating straight up or down. And I'm not sure how uniform the distribution of various frequencies would be.
A great percentage of the frequencies likely are radiating straight up.
It's worth noting that actual music sources (a person playing a violin in your living room) are not omnipolar.
If you did have an omnipolar source: get it away from the floor and ceiling the same way you get it away from the walls.
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So are conventional box front firing the only option for small room?
Is does seems like omni and OB designs benefit from pulling the speaker away from the wall.
My speaker actually do a great job in the soundstage department. I think i just want more of it.
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I have heard omega speakers before but forgot which model, but ibelieve it was one with small driver, paired with some tube 300b amp and they sounded a little shouty. I can definetly give a next try.
The older drivers could seem that way at higher volumes. The new drivers are better balanced and will not be shouty at all.
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I'm one of a very small number of people who own a pair of GR Research's omnidirectional O-3's. Despite their great sound, Danny says they are difficult to sell because the design is unusual. Frankly, if Danny didn't design this speaker, I would have no interest in them whatsoever. Drivers mounted on top of speakers are kinda freaky, IMO. They are used in a 13' x 20' x 8' room along the short wall with about three feet from the side and back walls. More space would be ideal, but these speakers replaced a pair of VMPS floor standers and easily outperformed them. According to Danny, they sound virtually identical to his open baffle designs that use the same drivers (except for the bass, of course).
Speaking as another one of the few people who own O-3's (as well as a pair of X-Omni's), I really enjoy the sound that they create. I am also able to get them at least 3' from anything and that's where the design has the chance to shine. I have had a number of other types of speakers in the room, and none of them can create the size and depth of the soundstage, which the O-3's do very naturally and easily. It's also great to be able to sit off axis and hear basically the same thing I would if I were sitting in the sweat spot. The main problem I see with them is the definite need to get them away from the walls, which means that they don't work in every room. But they work very well for me, and unless I move, I won't be getting rid of them any time soon.
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http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/mirage_omni60.htm (http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/mirage_omni60.htm)
There's a link to the mains I am using now, with sub support. Although not true omni's, they certainly project a difuse, airy soundstage.
They were a nice compromise vs the OB speakers I ran for years. The OB's were better for sure, but used up way more floor space, and as more family members started to come down to the listening space, I had to give up something.
The Shahinians are one omni I have always wanted to hear, but have never seen locally.
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The old Design Acoustics D-12 (1974) by Roy Allison is pretty nearly omni. I think it's 11 wide range drivers with a woofer on the bottom.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=71337)
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I heard these Danish omi directional speakers (or perhaps just "omni-sound") at the 2012 Capital Audiofest, the Davone Mojo:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=71340)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=71344)
Many good write ups on them in the hifi press.
I thought they sounded fantastic - but perhaps that was as much the great Woo Audio gear it was connected to and the super MA recordings albums. Still - for such a small desktop speakers they work great on side tables and would seem to have a very high WAF. Pity they are - imho - overpriced at $2,300 a pair!
Best value in similar speakers to me seems to be second hand Ohm Walshs, which are very cheap.
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I like to hear the Omnis at shows they typically sound great :D for first 10-15 min but afterward--I cannot put a finger on it.. it is as if I prefer more clarity and focus than diffuse enveloping sound :icon_surprised:. My personal preference that is all (not to mention placement- which would be impossible in my living room of my apartment). Others may continue to like it. I would not mind using them for Home Theater movies.
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I haven't heard Omni's but logic seems to me that unless you can afford them in high end form like MBL then just get some planars or electrostatics.
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Russell D: I didn't realize Roy Allison designed the DA-12! Sure about that? Allison Acoustics opened its doors right about then. I owned Allison Four bookshelfs and CD8's (top-woofer tower). Regret selling them. Allison literature used to refer to their product as "omnidirectional in the forward hemisphere". They were high-WAF for omnis, being designed for placement against the wall. Sadly, an attempt a few years back to re-launch the brand (priced further up the high-end than the originals) eventually failed.
It is hard to do an omni well, I believe, and as mentioned before, they like a well-treated room to support precise imaging, a common beef about omnis. They are generally not for those who want to be able to point at the third violin player. I am a fan of good ones- if I want to sit somewhere else in the room, or have people over, I don't want everybody in the room to hear something completely different. I am willing to make the tradeoffs.
Took a quick look at the MBL website; if WAF is the slightest consideration for you, you can cross them off your list right now :o
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A great percentage of the frequencies likely are radiating straight up.
It's worth noting that actual music sources (a person playing a violin in your living room) are not omnipolar.
If you did have an omnipolar source: get it away from the floor and ceiling the same way you get it away from the walls.
You raise a good point: just how is any given performance actually recorded/mixed? Omni mikes? Simple miking, which method? Multiple mikes, still omni mikes? Close miked, how would that sound without discrete imaging? A mix a mikes? Haven't even gotten into the mixing. That's why I go back to forward facing monitors in nearfield setup (the way it was engineered) for playback.
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AJ is going all technical on us, when in fact most people could care less.
Most of the designs that use these names (omni, bipole, dipole. ob) sound different than box speakers with front firing drivers and that really is the point.
But AJ is right. Over the years I have tried all sorts of reflecting speakers. From OB Panels to the Ohm to the DBX soundfield to the Bose 901 and a bunch of DIY experiments. All of them were part Omni. I have not heard Siegfried's OB but suspect it may be partly Omni too. The primary concept of an Omni is that in a concert hall we hear reflected sound so why not at home. Well in a concert hall all the instruments are radiating differently and reproducing this at home is not easy. Besides at home we listen to recordings and we have no way telling what processing was done in the studio. What we listen to in a concert hall is a Production. What we listen to at home is a Reproduction. We should be mighty pleased if the later even resembles the former.
Omnis do offer great spatial sense. Superb for orchestral or solo pieces played in a small-mid concert hall. Which is why they struggle to reproduce Led Zeppelin or ACDC unless they are "unplugged".
That said yes they do need some distance from walls so that we get the good delay. Sure wife's and girlfriends would be upset if they tripped over the electrical cables we use for speaker wire but if omnis reproduced all concert sound accurately we might tolerate the WAF.
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I have not heard Siegfried's OB but suspect it may be partly Omni too.
A number of folks swear by the Pluto (http://linkwitzlab.com/Pluto/Pluto-2.1.htm) omni's and some have even gone from (Quad) electrostatics (to them).
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1) But AJ is right.
2) Omnis do offer great spatial sense. Superb for orchestral or solo pieces played in a small-mid concert hall. Which is why they struggle to reproduce Led Zeppelin or ACDC unless they are "unplugged".
1) You lost me there.
2) In your opinion, others may enjoy the sound more.
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The old Design Acoustics D-12 (1974) by Roy Allison is pretty nearly omni. I think it's 11 wide range drivers with a woofer on the bottom.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=71337)
I still have a pair used in HT. They have a 10" woofer on bottom, a 5" scanspeak mid on top, and 9 tweeters on the various side facets. The 12th facet holds a port. They are very omnidirectional and still excellent on orchestral music. The original designer was George Sijoles (sp?), not affiliated w/Roy Allison. I bought them in 1976. When George sold out to Audio Technica, they discontinues them due to the expense of the cabinet.
Scott
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I don't spend enough time that far off axis (behind or beside the speakers) for an omni-directional radiation to make sense, and if I did then the stereo illusion wouldn't work very well. Also, sound radiated all over the place gets colored and delayed by the room boundaries. Okay, so putting them really far from room boundaries so the reflected sound adds spaciousness instead of coloration helps, but then every recording still has more of your room's own signature than you would get from a front-radiating design. To me, this imparts a same-ness to every recording that I do not prefer. I could see a case for a uniform frequency balance for 180 degrees...but omnipolar? I'm not convinced.
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1) You lost me there.
2) In your opinion, others may enjoy the sound more.
Omni's produce more reflected sound that typical monopole speakers. The reflected sound mimics concert halls and not so much large open air stadiums. So, in my view, they are usually better at replicating the Lang Lang at the Stern Auditroum (Carnegie Hall) than say Mettalica at Bader Field.
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Omni's produce more reflected sound that typical monopole speakers. The reflected sound mimics concert halls and not so much large open air stadiums. So, in my view, they are usually better at replicating the Lang Lang at the Stern Auditroum (Carnegie Hall) than say Mettalica at Bader Field.
Wouldn't reflected sound imitate "whatever room they happen to be in at the time"?
I've said before, if good headphones give you a musician on a stage in a club; good omnis give you a musician on a stage in a club in your family room.
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Wouldn't reflected sound imitate "whatever room they happen to be in at the time"?
I've said before, if good headphones give you a musician on a stage in a club; good omnis give you a musician on a stage in a club in your family room.
Exactly. Reflected sound is useful when we are talking clubs or concert halls (usually used for blues, jazz, and classical); today's rock bands usually play in open air stadiums. After all Iron maiden in a small club would peal the paint from the walls. LOL.
There is little reflected sound there. So the omnis will be producing more reflected sound than there is in reality. This was the point i was trying to make. Again here we are only discussing live music. Studio albums would be dependant on the processing done in the studio. In fact most live music is also processed before being cut to disc.
It does get complicated so in the end the only true statement we can make is that maybe Omnis work better with some recordings and not so well with others. It may just happen that many of the recordings that Omnis don't normally work well with are rock, metal, and other such genres.
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navin, I think you missed JLs point and you don't seem to have understood a single thing I have posted. :roll: :wink: :green:
Signed,
Communication Breakdown
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navin, I think you missed JLs point and you don't seem to have understood a single thing I have posted. :roll: :wink: :green:
Signed,
Communication Breakdown
Sir, I believe what JL was trying to say is that Omnis imitate the room they are in.
However my argument is that if the room they are in resembles a club or hall (as far as general reflections go) then the reproduction would resemble the original recording. But if the original recording was in a more anechoic space like an open air field then the Omnis might reproduce a spatial presence that does not match the original recording,
I am sorry to have not understood you. Could you please clarify your point of view?
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Omni's *add* the room they are in to the existing recording.
You get all the reflections of the recording, then the reflections of your room added in.
It's not necessarily unpleasent. In theory it would make a near-field or an-echoic recording of a violin sound like a violin in your room rather than next to your ear. But whether preferred or unpreferred, it is a difference from the original recording.
They don't imitate or not imitate the original recording. The reflections in the original are still there. The room is then added on top of them.
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Has anyone seen/heard the DIY's from Parts Express that are the line source with the 18 mids and 72 tweeters. Cabinets come assembled, all for $1980. I may try that my self. But, I'd have to find someone to do the veneer.
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Has anyone seen/heard the DIY's from Parts Express that are the line source with the 18 mids and 72 tweeters. Cabinets come assembled, all for $1980. I may try that my self. But, I'd have to find someone to do the veneer.
Don't confuse line array with omni directional speakers.
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Omni's *add* the room they are in to the existing recording.
You get all the reflections of the recording, then the reflections of your room added in.
It's not necessarily unpleasent. In theory it would make a near-field or an-echoic recording of a violin sound like a violin in your room rather than next to your ear. But whether preferred or unpreferred, it is a difference from the original recording.
They don't imitate or not imitate the original recording. The reflections in the original are still there. The room is then added on top of them.
I agree. I don't have a huge amount of experience with Omnis but this 'effect' they super-impose on recordings seem to favour some and do not so well with others.
Most surely Omnis are not accurate but them neither are most monopoles or OBs etc. The rooms we live in are one limiting factor. So while many of us might have impressive systems that reproduce music well I don't know how many of these could be considered 'accurate' and even then they may be 'accurate' for just a section/genre/type of music.
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The only way to remove your room from what you hear is headphones (or an anechoic chamber). That's maximum accuracy.
Though you need to mic differently when you do the recording as well. There's a long list about the differences in proper mic-ing for speakers in a room vs headphones.
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Hi All,
I was on the phone yesterday talking with an owner of Holistic Audio H1's. He told me he has been through a number of omni directional speakers and absolutely loves them.
Check out the site here: http://www.holisticaudio.com/HolisticAudio/HOME.html
Have fun! :D
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JLM
Hi,
I'm not confused at all about an omni and a line source though they both have things in common. I was just puttin out the LS info as a fairly inexpensive way to get great sound. Most, it seems to me, omni's seem over priced for what many of them are. I find the Duevals to be particularrly pricey, but a good part of their price is 'cause of the dollar devaluation.
The most fun I've had when listening causually is from a pr. of AV123 x-omni's. Very good for the buck and they were hooked up to Grace Digital i-net radio. Fun on the cheap is an understatement. Of course the music sure helped in that regard.
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One significant difference between a good recital hall and a home listening room is what's happening as far as reflections (reverberation) goes. In a good hall, there is a fairly long time delay between the first-arrival sound and the onset of reflections, and when those reflections do arrive, they are diffuse, decorrelated, well-energized, and spectrally correct.
When an omni or quasi-omni or polydirectional setup is working well, it is mimicing at least some of those characteristics of live music in a good hall. I would characterize a fullrange dipole speaker as a quasi-omni in this context, as the backwave is spectrally correct, and we need to get the speakers out into the room far enough that the backwave reflection path imposes a respectable time delay. My point being, if the problem is "how to better mimic what happens in a good recital hall", a speaker doesn't have to be a true omni to take us in that direction. In my experience, true omnis have a tendency to generate unnatural soundstage effects (ten foot wide guitars), even when set up professionally.
As for popularity or lack thereof, in addition to the somewhat demanding placement constraints, I think most audiophiles have the perception that "reflections = bad; more reflections = worse". This is true under some conditions, but not when done right, which really isn't all that difficult. And reflections done right improve timbre, sense of envelopment, and clarity. That's right, clarity... that surprised me too, but it's right there in Floyd Toole's book, with some real good research to back it up. Anyway if you allow me to classify dipoles as "polydirectionals" and therefor "quasi-omnis", once we include Magnepan they're pretty popular after all.
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sorry double post... you'd think I'd have learned the difference between the "quote" and "modify" buttons by now...
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Interesting article on Ohm speakers today...
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13645_3-57567126-47/forty-years-ago-the-ohm-f-speaker-was-a-game-changer-it-still-is/
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I had a pair ohm walshes at one time, they sounded great but bass was an issue without a sub.
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Omnis are fine for outdoor use. In a bounded space they suck IMO. Create an acoustics nightmare with tons of specular reflections and the result is sound everywhere and nowhere. Terrible image with no acccuracy.
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Omnis are fine for outdoor use. In a bounded space they suck IMO. Create an acoustics nightmare with tons of specular reflections and the result is sound everywhere and nowhere. Terrible image with no acccuracy.
I couldn't disagree more.
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I currently own a true omnidirectional speaker, which is more than most of the posters in this thread can say. To say that they "suck" indoors is untrue. There are things that they do very well, and some not so well.
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I run a pair of ohms in my living room. For me, the value has always been consistent sound throughout the room. I'm not one to sit in one spot for long. With that in mind, I would always appreciate speakers with wide dispersion patters. By contrast, I have owned Maggie's . Lovely and hard to beat in the sweet spot, but ultimately, not best for my listening style.