[Rclark]

 Well, that's interesting, the possibility of a lower tune.

 Another thing to wonder about is whether or not the possible 50hz tuning is anechoic or not. If we can tune lower, as you say, and room gain does boost lower freqs further, and we have four of them, then this could possibly be a succesful little project.

 I guess at this point, wait to get more info from the company. See what they say and mull it over.

 No one has suggested running my current 10" ported sub with the 8's is bad or not, and one thing I could do, is park the big ported 10" in the corner, and cross it as low as possible, set it to 40hz. Bam, low end extension. Then toss the 8's about randomly.

[doug s.]

Well I simply can't believe the output is only to 50hz, that's just silly. And regardless, if 30 or close to it can be achieved with some adjustments, longer, stuffed port as Duke suggests, then I think I may still attempt it.

 The Klipsch Promedia sub was doing 30hz 8 or 9 years ago. Not loudly like a more legitimate subwoofer, but definitely there... and you could daisy chain several of them. Matter of fact, for a while, Klipsch had an add-on single 8" sub for the promedia system and you could daisy chain 16 of them together and make a wall of bass.

 The 12" wasn't as well receieved by the reviewer, but you're probably right, having 4 of them, less effort, better quality.

 The problem is the ship date for the 12 is some time in Jan and I think I'll probably be finishing up first go round on my room treatments, my speakers will be modded, and I'll be interested in checking out some OB bass at that time.

 If I do this at all, it will be in the coming weeks, to a month, and it will have to be the 8's or nothing.

 If it works out, the 8's can drop sufficiently low, and I can maximize them with any sort of simple mods, and they sound good in that swarm configuration, heck I might just run them for a while.

 Who knows, running a bunch of them like that might end up being more than decent, sort of a bare-minimum for ultra smooth bass for music in a small room like mine. My MMG's will take an apparently huge upswing in quality in about two months and needs will change.

i can understand the impatience thing.  but, truly, if i were in your shoes, i would curb my desire and simply not buy anything.  i just do not believe you will get anything remotely approaching decent true low end with these.  maybe the mid bass will be ok, but i do not believe you will get anything resembling real low end response.  it maybe ok for a midfi background listening kinda thing, but nothing better.  at least w/the 12" subs, you might have half a chance of getting something approaching a true low end response.  of course, this is simply my opinion..

doug s.

[Rclark]

Well, I do have these nice Adire Brahma XBL^2 motored 15's sitting around. Only two of them, though, not four. And when I do theiur eventual build, it will be a little expensive, I'd like sandboxes, with a couple nice amps on them. Actually, come to think of it, the flatpacks wouldn't be too bad, and those ClassD amps are pretty cheap. But not just yet with these. Ideally, I'd first like to build a couple OB subs, and then have these built for the ultra lows. so a pair of ob's and crossed very low, these:





 They are both fresh reconed 15's and have never been broken in. A few years ago I was interested in building a car stereo, but lost all interest in that, and they just kind of sat around in my closet while I trolled home stereo forums, and finally started on my current build. I have a use for these again.

 You're probably right about the Monoprice subs, but hey if it's possible that it might work, I might just give it a try. Then once I have my OB's built, and the Brahma's, I could stick these little subs and my 10 in the living room with my monitors.

 Eh, you're right... maybe for now I should just get a microphone and some basstrap material and get started in that direction first. $250 could go a long way there.

 Still want to see what this guy says, but I think Duke, and the manufacturer are right, it's 50hz. Maybe it could work with those, guess we'll see. If the 12's were available, I'd be considering them, but their Jan availability is a no go for this little possible diversion.

[JohnR]

I'd push you a little further in that direction and second your thought that the USD250 would be better spent on a measurement setup If you do that you will have plenty of things to learn about and occupy you until the time when your mains deserve better subs.

However, I would suggest that you then immediately get a chunky pro amp with DSP (or a pro amp and a separate DSP unit - Behringer, miniDSP etc). Again, you are going to need it for the Brahmas anyway. Then put those Brahmas in a flat baffle each on either side of the listening position and work on it. I think you'll be amazed.

My 2c

[doug s.]

+1 on what johnr said.  unless you have money to burn, spend your $250 on something more worthwhile than four $57 9" "subwoofers".  of course, if you had money to burn, you wouldn't be interested in $57 subwoofers!   

doug s.

[cujobob]

Anyone who has heard Dr Geddes home system can attest to the quality of bass one can get from multiple cheap subs. Youd probably want no less than 10" though and will need some sort of behringer or dcx. Before using his custom subs, Earl used a bunch of cheapies and it sounded amazing. Getting below 20 Hz will take larger subs.

[Rclark]

I'd push you a little further in that direction and second your thought that the USD250 would be better spent on a measurement setup If you do that you will have plenty of things to learn about and occupy you until the time when your mains deserve better subs.

However, I would suggest that you then immediately get a chunky pro amp with DSP (or a pro amp and a separate DSP unit - Behringer, miniDSP etc). Again, you are going to need it for the Brahmas anyway. Then put those Brahmas in a flat baffle each on either side of the listening position and work on it. I think you'll be amazed.

My 2c

 You know, I would LOVE to do that, but I think I had this conversation a while back on GR forum and people were suggesting these, even though they are large, extremely powerful subs with large X-max, that they would probably require an enormous baffle to have any sort of output because something about their qtc is wrong.

 If they worked on OB, I probably would be in bass heaven already, but it looks like they won't.

 And Doug, you're right about that! Ahahahaha. But I'm still having fun along the way. I might still take the gamble on these. I mean, if they can be made to be good, then I can sort of experiment cheaply with a 4 subwoofer swarm, was the idea, and learn from that.

 It's not that I am in need of a sub, I have one, I was just interested in trying a cheap swarm. See what totally smooth in room bass is like.

[jtwrace]

See what totally smooth in room bass is like.

The BEST that you can imagine.  Truly nothing like it.

[Rclark]

^

And that's why I'm looking at these Doug. As far as quality, yeah, I bet one of these things alone would be terrible, and definitely not mate well with my MMG's, lol, I wouldn't even consider it. But four of them, that has to change things drastically. All with their gain set low, just idling in their sweetspot. Smooth flat bass.

 

[doug s.]

^

And that's why I'm looking at these Doug. As far as quality, yeah, I bet one of these things alone would be terrible, and definitely not mate well with my MMG's, lol, I wouldn't even consider it. But four of them, that has to change things drastically. All with their gain set low, just idling in their sweetspot. Smooth flat bass.

i understand all of this,  i yust don't think you are going to get decent results w/8" drivers.  10" min; 12" even better.  if you really wanna try it, start searching for something else at a bargain price that you can obtain sooner...

doug s.

[doug s.]

rclark,
here's one for you.  a little more cash ($90-$97 shipped), but these are 10", 100w, servo controlled...  -10db at 25hz...
http://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio-visual/speaker-systems/subwoofers/yst-sw216_black__u/?mode=model

$97 shipped:
http://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-YST-SW216BL-Advanced-Front-Firing-Subwoofer/dp/B000FJ89UO

tiger has 'em for $90, but they charge shipping; maybe they will cut you a break if you are wanting to order 4; you could call 'em...
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=3347002

here's $90 and free shipping:
http://www.buy.com/prod/yamaha-yst-sw216-front-firing-100w-powered-subwoofer-yamaha-ystsw216/203087031.html

and, mebbe you can bargain w/a seller and/or find a coupon for some place, to save a few more dollars; a lot of wendors sell this...

doug s.

[Rclark]

Hmmm. that's interesting. However it doesn't have a crossover, just a switch. I wonder what the points and slope look like.

[Quiet Earth]

In my past experiences with subs, the biggest problem that I always had was getting a seamless integration with the mains. I'm not talking about getting the crossover frequencies just right or balancing the levels between the mains and the room perfectly. I'm talking about making the picture appear as though it was all painted on the same piece of canvas. I could always tell that there was a subwoofer doing something in the room unless I turned it (them) down so low that I wondered why I was using a sub at all.

I have never been "swarmed", but I am betting that there is a minimum quality requirement needed to do it right. And if everything is just right, I would imagine that there is still a trade off between getting better bass extension in the room verses getting a more coherent picture of the music.

Is the "swarm" idea really a free lunch in this regard?

[srb]

In regards to the Yamaha YST-SW216 subwoofer, I don't like the idea of only two switch positions for crossover adjustment and I think they could do better than a 50W @ 10% THD amplifier. 
 
This is what the frequency response looks like for each of the two switch positions:
 

 
Although I own several Yamaha products, this isn't one I would buy.
 
Steve

[doug s.]

In regards to the Yamaha YST-SW216 subwoofer, I don't like the idea of only two switch positions for crossover adjustment and I think they could do better than a 50W @ 10% THD amplifier. 
 
This is what the frequency response looks like for each of the two switch positions:
 

 
Although I own several Yamaha products, this isn't one I would buy.
 
Steve

in spite of the switch and the honest amp specs, i'd still be buying these long before the monoprice units.  i can only imagine the amp specs of the monoprice 60w amp.  and, for me, i would never be using the built-in x-over of a powered sub anyway; i would simply be setting the subs to their highest position, and using an outboard active x-over for the subs and main speakers.  i actually did this a while back, for a pair of yamaha powered subs i picked up, when space conditions required my upright-style vmps larger subs to be placed in storage; it worked quite nicely.

of course, budget is always a concern, but i'd really be looking to something like this - for me - if i were wanting subwoofing on the cheap:

http://www.buy.com/prod/yamaha-yst-sw315-subwoofer-system-black-ash-yamaha-digital-pro-yst/203025474.html#
manual here:
http://www2.yamaha.co.jp/manual/pdf/av/english/sub/YST-SW315215.pdf

of course, $400 will only get you a pair, not four, but these are of high enough quality that they could be used quite effectively in a swarm style system, either w/4 or w/two other subs.  these are actually quite similar to the pair i used in a normal stereo subwoofer set up, crossed over to a pair of coincident victory's.  they are actually quite decent subs...

doug s.

[doug s.]

In my past experiences with subs, the biggest problem that I always had was getting a seamless integration with the mains. I'm not talking about getting the crossover frequencies just right or balancing the levels between the mains and the room perfectly. I'm talking about making the picture appear as though it was all painted on the same piece of canvas. I could always tell that there was a subwoofer doing something in the room unless I turned it (them) down so low that I wondered why I was using a sub at all.

I have never been "swarmed", but I am betting that there is a minimum quality requirement needed to do it right. And if everything is just right, I would imagine that there is still a trade off between getting better bass extension in the room verses getting a more coherent picture of the music.

Is the "swarm" idea really a free lunch in this regard?

i have never tried the swarm set-up, but i have also never had any difficulty setting up a pair of stereo subs and integrating them w/mains, when using a quality outboard active x-over.  in fact, besides the better bass response, what i like about having an active sub set up is that the soundstaging and coherency has always been better than w/o having subs.  i think this has to do w/a few factors - i set the subs to be in the same plane as the mains; having (at least) a pair loads the room better than a single sub; and crossing over the mains makes the mains themselves sound better as their woofer and their amp does not see any low frequencies at all...

ymmv,

doug s.

[jtwrace]

Here is my system with multiple subs (4).  This is the raw in room response from the listening position.  NO EQ.

[Rclark]

WOW!!!

 That's the raw listener position response, that must be incredible. Which subs are you running?

[jtwrace]

WOW!!!

 That's the raw listener position response, that must be incredible. Which subs are you running?

Yes.  That is two GedLee bandpass subs and two of my custom aluminum Rythmik Subs (pics in my gallery).  Also to note there is no eq applied.

There is a bunch more info in this locked thread http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=86403.msg913119#msg913119 also look on the next page for the room layout.  Far from ideal...

[JohnR]

If they worked on OB, I probably would be in bass heaven already, but it looks like they won't.

They will work. Qts of 0.47 isn't that low, and you'll need power and EQ. But you are going to need those anyway.