[Jon L]

Quite Correct.  Most Ribbons are NOT Great, esp into mid/upper mid.
Seems like a lot of folke are getting enamored with a quick 'leading'
edge.  Need to get out more often.

Well...  I wouldn't go ThAT far about ribbons.  I think one should draw a distinction between real ribbons and quasi-ribbons and planar magnetics.

For ribbons, I do agree the usual-sized ones are not great for upper-mids/midrange, and these sized ribbons are the most used in commercial speakers.  Even the hugely expensive Burmester speakers use a smallish ribbon, and as a consequence you get increased distortion in the x-over region.  There are some ribbons (some say Ravens) that have been accused of "too much detail," but I believe some of this is due to speaker designers "flaunting" the ribbon with a hotter balance.  If one implements a ribbon correctly, use it in its optimum frequency range, blend it naturally with other drivers, a ribbon SURE can sound fantastic.

Planar magnetics, quasi-ribbons as used by VMPS midranges and Magnepans are sturdier due to different construction.  They also can't extend as high with speed like a true ribbon, but they are able to cover the midrange very well.  They cost substantially less than a ribbon, which is a plus, enabling multiple drivers and line arrays.  

Speaker design really is not about which technology and what kind of drivers IMO.  A great designer will put together a great sounding speaker from $10 drivers while a poor one will put in thousands of dollars into drivers, parts into a piece of abomination.

[Carlman]

Sonically, the Ref 1's are extremely revealing. They will just play whatever source you feed them. Garbage in, garbage out. I personally feel that room, placement, and gear are very important with these speakers. I know some particular people disagree - but again, personal preferences can come into play. With the right (or wrong) selections, you can get these speakers to sound warm, neutral, or bright....

I guess I'm one of those disagree-ers... I'm not here to poo-poo the Ref 1 but to just add a little more to this statement that I experienced.  

The personality of the Onix Ref 1 does provide a lot of detail but I don't agree (totally) that it's a garbage-in/garbage-out type of speaker.  It has a sonic personality/character that accentuates highs.  So, it will not only reveal high frequency 'issues' but also amplify them.  From what I heard, I feel certain from what I heard that the crossovers are balanced to be a little hot on the highs... or 'tipped up' sounding.  Thus, imparting their character to accentuate particular high frequency 'garbage' fed them.  So, they are particularly unforgiving in the highs.

Hopefully, this is viewed as a constructive addendum.  I doubt I'd like the Ref 2 or 3 myself because of my preferences, hearing, room, etc.... But after reading this review, I would really like to hear the Ref 3.  Maybe one day...

[Sa-dono]

Thanks Ron and F-100! You both know you want to buy them!

[Rocket]

Hi,

I heartily agree with jon's statement regarding xover design and ribbons.

I have a pair of W.A.R. audio designed/built speakers.  My speakers ustilise raven 1 ribbon tweeters and 2 x 7 inch focal drivers in a mtm configuration.

the raven tweeter in not accentuated in any way at all.  It has the most natural high's i have yet heard from a speaker.  The only problem i have had initially with the speakers is i kept tearing ribbons but this has been corrected by modifying the xover.

Ribbons also do tend to beam a little more than dome tweeters.  You can't have it all ways.

regards

rocket

[Sa-dono]

I guess I'm one of those disagree-ers... I'm not here to poo-poo the Ref 1 but to just add a little more to this statement that I experienced.  

The personality of the Onix Ref 1 does provide a lot of detail but I don't agree (totally) that it's a garbage-in/garbage-out type of speaker. It has a sonic personality/character that accentuates highs. So, it will not only reveal high frequency 'issues' but also amplify them. From what I heard, I feel certain from what I heard that the crossovers are balanced to be a little hot on the highs... or 'tipped up' sounding. Thus, imparting their character to accentuate particular high frequency 'garbage' fed them. So, they are particularly unforgiving in the highs.

Hopefully, this is viewed as a constructive addendum. I doubt I'd like the Ref 2 or 3 myself because of my preferences, hearing, room, etc.... But after reading this review, I would really like to hear the Ref 3. Maybe one day...

I have no problems with your thoughts Carlman. Like we have discussed previously, and I mentioned here, the room, placement, and gear are very important with these speakers. I know you have made many improvements in these areas since your previous audition, so it would be interesting what you would think now. Again, personal preferences can certainly come into play, and many prefer a more relaxed and tapered off sound, an extremely bright sound, a laid back and recessed sound, a warmer sound, etc. All that matters is getting to your personal Audio Nirvana. It sounds like you are getting there Carlman - and I feel the APL modded 563-A should make you very happy

[Sa-dono]

Speaker design really is not about which technology and what kind of drivers IMO. A great designer will put together a great sounding speaker from $10 drivers while a poor one will put in thousands of dollars into drivers, parts into a piece of abomination.

I could not agree more Jon. There are great sounding speakers of all kinds of different technologies and designs. I would love to own many different speakers of various designs, but cost of space and money always come into play.

[Jon L]

Hi,

I heartily agree with jon's statement regarding xover design and ribbons.

I have a pair of W.A.R. audio designed/built speakers.  My speakers ustilise raven 1 ribbon tweeters and 2 x 7 inch focal drivers in a mtm configuration.

the raven tweeter in not accentuated in any way at all.  It has the most natural high's i have yet heard from a speaker.  The only problem i have had initially with the speakers is i kept tearing ribbons but this has been corrected by modifying the xover.

Ribbons also ...

Hi, Rocket.  My speakers also used to use the 7inch Focal Kevlar midbass unit along with Focal inverted titanium dome.  With separate bass drivers.

I changed out the Focal tweeter for Aurum Cantus G3 ribbon tweeter and the 7inch midbass unit with Focal 7inch 7K2 MidRange driver.  The improvement in going from the 7inch midbass to 7K2 is significant, not to mention increased sensitivity.  

If you ever need to run some 2-3 watt SET amps and/or need more bass, you could swap the drivers for 7K2, revise the X-over a little to match the sensitivity of Raven R1 with 7K2's.  R1 is 95dB sensitive and so is 7K2.  Actually, with dual 7K2's midrange can get up to 98dB!

Of course you would need an active x-over and 2 new bass units (7K2 should be crossed at 200Hz or so).  This setup will likely be Smoking

[Sean Parque]

For those asking about the supertweeter...

Magnetostat advantages:

– Extremely low mass, resulting in a
perfect transient response
– High dynamics, transparency and
fidelity in detail
– No partial oscillation
– Good radiation characteristics
– Linear frequency range up to over
50 kHz
– Accustically neutral foil – no sonic
signature
– Constant impedance
– Very high long-term stability




For reference, here are Ribbon and Electrostatic designs:

[JLM]

Similar to VMPS designs, its impressive that integration of additional drivers could be done so well, but the price increase is even more impressive.  

Just another example of diminishing returns as you approach the ideal.  

Thats why they call us audiophools.

[Sean Parque]

>>Just another example of diminishing returns as you approach the ideal.<<

You are quite right!  Every dollar extra you spend building the product adds up since you have to make a certain GP on the spekaer as a whole...it does get expensive...

[Jon L]

>>Just another example of diminishing returns as you approach the ideal.<<

You are quite right!  Every dollar extra you spend building the product adds up since you have to make a certain GP on the spekaer as a whole...it does get expensive...

Is it the Visaton MHT 12 tweeter?

http://www.visaton.com/english/artikel/art_684.htm

[Sean Parque]

>>Just another example of diminishing returns as you approach the ideal.<<

You are quite right!  Every dollar extra you spend building the product adds up since you have to make a certain GP on the spekaer as a whole...it does get expensive...

Is it the Visaton MHT 12 tweeter?

http://www.visaton.com/english/artikel/art_684.htm

Sorry, no

[WerTicus]

when you consider that the vifa tweeter there is a super tweeter going to 40khz itself its pretty amazing they added another tweeter to go on top of that... far out

the xt is pretty sweet but its only a 30 dollar unit...  
thats why I love diy, a system like this diy would cost you something like 2k-3k max! and im talking aussie dollars there.

I would side with rocket in saying the raven tweeter is sweet.  Certainly sweeter than the xt, though I couldnt say for an xt + super like we have here.

I went back to WAR again rod and had another listen to the reference ones, they blow me away without fail everytime  Not surpised to learn that they are better than the wilson watt puppies really, is it not amazing what DIY can do for your 8k!?

[Rocket]

Hi Werticus,

I don't want to go too far off topic but i really should get you to come around my place for a listen to my war audio speakers.

Although not in the same league as  the reference 1's they are still pretty good.

send me a pm and we'll work something out.

regards

rod

[Sa-dono]

when you consider that the vifa tweeter there is a super tweeter going to 40khz itself its pretty amazing they added another tweeter to go on top of that... far out

the xt is pretty sweet but its only a 30 dollar unit...  
thats why I love diy, a system like this diy would cost you something like 2k-3k max! and im talking aussie dollars there.

I would be EXTREMELY impressed if you could match the sound and looks of the Ref 3's for that amount of money. Somehow I am even more doubtful of that, than I would be impressed (which would be huge). It is not all about the price of components used...

[WerTicus]

Actually sa-dono it IS about the price of the components used.

How can I show this to you... hrmm well... Let me see....

Although this isnt the lab i think this is the easiest way to give an example of how cost matters.

Assuming:  
      ref 3 uses metalised poly bypassed with film foil on its network. (Typical at this price)
      Labor is most expensive part (very likely)


Okay lets take the reference 3's and replace its crossover network with the same value components but only use bi polar capacitors bypassed with metalised poly. (a whole 'level' below)

What won’t change:
    The cross-over points
   
What will change:
     The bass would become loose (don’t know why it just does)
     The image blurred (due to lower tolerances on the bi polar)
     The high end rolled off and harsh (loss of the film foils)
     The mid range muddy
     The amount of power it can handle drops
     The RR Price will drop!

I am talking from personal experience here by the way.

Now how about the reverse!

You take the ref3 you open her up and upgrade the network!
Replace the metalised poly/ film foil with pure film foil ($400+ each speaker) or with film by passed with paper oil ($$$$) or with pure paper oil ($probably not possible without selling your soul)

The crossover points do not change but:
Power handling increases
The image gets holographic
The highs get scary real (especially with the two tweeters.. hrmm!)
The mid range transparent
The bass tighter than you ever though possible (you think you have a line array of 4inch drivers, and you didn’t even put the carpet spikes back on!)


SO... exactly the same design + more expensive components = win!

[WerTicus]

Basically for this sort of money $US4,500  I could go buy myself the WAR Audio reference ones from Perth here in WA,  have $1k left over to have the cabinets made very professionally. (or does that price include cabinets, do you know rod?)

The WARr1's use the theil and partner ceramic midrange the raven r1 tweeter and the cabass 10" woofer... all TOP of the line drivers, unlike the r3)

for the same money i would end up with a speaker that has beaten the wilson watt puppies (at 250k us)

with that sort of level wouldnt you be happier sa dono?

not trying to start a war here sa dono...

I have not heard the r3's maybe they really do kick arse... and im sure they DO to some extent.

Just trying to help you explore all the possibilities... course if i cant open your eyes from what i have said so far... good luck!

and just so you know i have not put myself down for a war r1 yet either i am going to hear a pair of orions first and probably some others before i choose - EVEN THOUGH the war r1's are easily the best i have ever heard.

It would seem it is human nature to get all hyped up about something and think its awesome when it might not be the most awesome.  Look at bose for example!

[lonewolfny42]

These "WAR" speakers....made in oz ? Got a link ? Thanks !

[Sa-dono]

Actually sa-dono it IS about the price of the components used.

.............

SO... exactly the same design + more expensive components = win!

There is certainly too much simplification and too many assumptions made here. Yes, better components may improve the sound. However, implementation, matching, synergy, and tuning are all extremely important as well. Haphazardly throwing the most expensive components together will not make a great sounding speaker, unless extremely lucky. Also, higher cost does not always correlate to higher quality, or better sound.

[Sa-dono]

Basically for this sort of money $US4,500  I could go buy myself the WAR Audio reference ones from Perth here in WA,  have $1k left over to have the cabinets made very professionally. (or does that price include cabinets, do you know rod?)

The WARr1's use the theil and partner ceramic midrange the raven r1 tweeter and the cabass 10" woofer... all TOP of the line drivers, unlike the r3)

for the same money i would end up with a speaker that has beaten the wilson watt puppies (at 250k us)

with that sort of level wouldnt you be happier sa dono?

not trying to start a war here sa dono...

I have not heard the r3's maybe they really do kick arse... and im sure they DO to some extent.

Just trying to help you explore all the possibilities... course if i cant open your eyes from what i have said so far... good luck!

and just so you know i have not put myself down for a war r1 yet either i am going to hear a pair of orions first and probably some others before i choose - EVEN THOUGH the war r1's are easily the best i have ever heard.

It would seem it is human nature to get all hyped up about something and think its awesome when it might not be the most awesome. Look at bose for example!

How much are the WAR Reference One's, from a kit? The only price I could find was Rocket and yourself mentioning $8000AU. That equates out to $5935.27. You will not be buying the speakers, much less nice cabinets, for $4500! I hope that is the price for a finished product. Otherwise, your argument has just sunk, and gone "glug, glug, glug..." Also, looking at the kit section, I must say the speakers look rather wretched and DIY.

On to the other points....

Was this in comparison to the Wilson WATT/Puppy System 7? If so, your numbers are quite off. Take a zero off. They are $25K. Also, have you even heard the WATT/Puppy's, or are you just going by other people's opinions?

I am unsure of the word "beaten". Once you get to a certain level, many speakers sound extremely good. Unless you are actually comparing along the lines of accuracy, then no speaker at this level outright beats another (except based on opinions, tastes, and personal preferences). To speak along the lines of accuracy, you must have some level of background in being in the recording studio, and have the requisite material (audio discs) to compare with the live sound and mixing process.

I will say I have heard speakers up into the $80K+ range, and would have no problem stacking the Ref 3's against them. I am not getting "hyped up" about anything. I have done my listening, and my comparisons. When I find a better speaker, for my tastes and preferences, it is guaranteed that they will find their way into my system. I highly doubt those WAR speakers would be the ticket, but if I ever had the chance to hear a pair, I certainly would with an open mind.

Your mention of the drivers, I am sorry to say, is a laugh. You probably have little to no knowledge about three-quarters of the drivers in the Ref 3. Also, the Vifa XT driver is highly acclaimed, and measures extremely well within its range of use in the Ref 3. I have heard the Vifa XT in many different speakers, and can not stress how important implementation is in regards to sound with this tweeter. If you are just basing your impressions on your own DIY projects, you are likely discrediting what is truly possible with this driver.

Do you happen to know where the crossovers on the WAR R1 is? I would be curious how they implemented the three drivers. They would have to be extremely good to be able to match the transparency of the Ref 3's implementation of the drivers.

All of the above said, I wish you the best of luck with your search for your next speakers, whether they end up being the WAR R1's, Orions, or any other speaker.