[DVV]

The term Power Conditioner has really been misused from what I can gather. Most of this answer will hopefully address Russ Kon's concerns.
I will generally advocate High Frequency filtering on the AC line for the following reasons. Linear power supplies ( most of what we use in audio) have poor rejection at high frequencies. Semiconductor designed for low frequencies and the linear designs we put them in also suffer from poor rejection at high frequencies. This has been well documented by Analog Devices an ...

Let me just add one thing - most balanced power filters using transformers have good filtering in the lower range, up to say 10 kHz or so (this will depend on the actual transformers used), but their effects will tend to drop sharply above 20 kHz.

Now, Dan said "high frequencies" - what exactly are high frequencies? To me, this is everything above 20 kHz, which is the nominal threshold of human hearing.

Anyway, the DeZorel does exactly the opposite of balancing transformers - its effects increase at frequencies above 6 kHz and go on increasing well into the megahertz range, where they are better than 70 dB (or 3.1 million to one).

I have measured my own sample at -42 dB at 22 kHz, a suppression of  126:1, which is outstanding in view of the fact that the suppression ratio continues to increase further on. Thus, for all practical purposes, it lets NO intereference through above 20 kHz, and little below it, which corresponds rather well with the typical higher quality filtering curve of large electrolytic capacitors, as typically used in audio gear. This in fact confirms Dan's statement in specific numbers.

Lastly, why did I tell John that it was a matter of taste? Simply because there is no such thing as a perfect conductor, and transformers fall into the category of most imperfect conductors, probably the dirtiest we are forced to use. Therefore, each and every transformer WILL imprint its own sonic signature,. no matter how you make it and what you use in a far greater measure than the DeZorel filter, which does NOT use transformers, but still works in true, full balanced mode.

I won't even comment on the matter ond problem of the ground and its use in line filters, that's another story altogether.

Cheers,
DVV

[KeithR]

you missed my point---audio companies arent in the business to design cords, especially since many audiophiles are going to switch them out anyways.  They use basic stuff to design with.   However, they don't want some fool putting an amp some screwy way on the grid, and then suing them.  Hence, they don't recommend other cords/conditioners/interconnects/etc.  it is liability that creates this need.

as far as measurements, Russ, please measure soundstage, imaging, transient, decay etc for me.  most wouldn't argue on speaker auditioning these qualities exist.

and finally, pro audio is going the power route too.  Skywalker Labs, Abbey Road Studio, CBS Studios, to name just a few are using snakes and power conditioning of some sort.

they recommend that because there is no scientific way to measure any differences in power cords.....

i know that the above comment will bring about many people claiming to hear "wonderful" improvements in their systems with aftermarket power cords....

but the simple truth is that there is NO ELECTRICAL DIFFERENCE THAT IS MEASURABLE!!!! if there was a measurable difference, it would be published as "proof" that that particular cable was better....

and besides....what manufacturer would recommend an ...

[Dan Banquer]

Hi Jay;
    The main reason I am sceptical about the balanced transformers is that the transformers in the equipment are unbalanced. If the transformers in the equipment were balanced that would be a different story. For all the years I have worked for scientific instrumentation companies, no system has, that I am aware of,  used the balanced transformers. If you think audio is tough, try 110db gain from DC to 2GHZ, and keep a low noise floor.
However; if what you have got makes you happy, then so be it.

[Dan Banquer]

To answer Dejan's question, I generally consider High Frequency to start at the AM radio band which is about 500 kHz here in the states. The Dezoral filter, if I remember correctly, is down 10 db at 6 kHz, and 70 to 90 db down at 600 kHz. Single stage common mode filters typically start to roll off at 50 kHz and are typically 40 db down at 1 Mhz.
This fall I am going to contact you and DeZoral about getting one of those "bricks" for evaluation. You have definetly raised my interest in reducing noise at lower frequencies.

[Psychicanimal]

in actual practice, most people really have pretty good power...(at least in the u.s.)...

Dude,

I've never seen anything so out of contact with reality!

out of contact with reality??? ....well let's see....... last year i sold over $1,000,000 in pro/commercial audio gear at the distributor level....i do know a little about what i'm talking about....

and just for your information....alot  of the "power conditioners" on the marke ...

Your ability as a pro audio salesman has nothing to do with your lack of knowledge about the noise content of power lines.

If you want to figure this out correctly get an AudioPrism Noise Sniffer or, better yet, an oscilloscope rigged with a ONEAC line viewer.

Like Satfrat said, if you listen to what I have to say you might learn something.  The same goes for paying attention to the Serbian hope, DVV.  He's the one that started teaching me on this subject and I've become really good thanks to him, Deano and Sean.

[Psychicanimal]

Hi Jay;
    The main reason I am sceptical about the balanced transformers is that the transformers in the equipment are unbalanced. If the transformers in the equipment were balanced that would be a different story. For all the years I have worked for scientific instrumentation companies, no system has, that I am aware of,  used the balanced transformers. If you think audio is tough, try 110db gain from DC to 2GHZ, and keep a low noise floor.
However; if what you have got makes you happy, then so be it.

I am currently using the DeZorel and seems someone else wants to audition it, too.  Contact Audiojerry.

If Deano gets his top of the line BPT I plan to drive to his house and compare them both.  we'll see how it goes in the next few days...

[JohnR]

BPT sounds better than DeZorel. Or at least, it did when I heard them.

A matter of taste.

A reasonable counter, although in that case why are you trying to sell everybody on the DeZorel based on arguments about RF attenuation and something about wire. Nothing to do with how it sounds...

Anyway, the difference was fairly clear to me. The BPT made more music. The Dezorel in contrast made things hard-sounding, almost scratchy (for want of a better word). That's about all I remember, it was certainly enough to convince me where to put any power treatment effort of my own. My other comments are in the mammoth thread somewhere, along with a couple others who said the same thing and also got drowned out by all the rebuttals.

[JohnR]

Hi Jay;
    The main reason I am sceptical about the balanced transformers is that the transformers in the equipment are unbalanced. If the transformers in the equipment were balanced that would be a different story.

Erm... power transformers *are* balanced... either end of the primary is the same as the other, right? (Almost, and for the purposes of this particular discussion, that is...)

No?

[Psychicanimal]

A reasonable counter, although in that case why are you trying to sell everybody on the DeZorel based on arguments about RF attenuation and something about wire. Nothing to do with how it sounds...

Anyway, the difference was fairly clear to me. The BPT made more music. The Dezorel in contrast made things hard-sounding, almost scratchy (for want of a better word). That's about all I remember, it was certainly enough to convince me where to put any power treatment effort of my own. My other comments are in ...

When I tried the DeZorel in my friend's system, the sound was somehat sharp (scratchy) and rough, but still better and more dynamic than with the Tice A/V Solo.  When the ONEAC was plugged to the DeZorel and the Cambridge CDP plugged to the ONEAC the harshness was gone.   I have not yet tried the DeZorel against my Clear Image T4 but I plan to do so as soon as I get a chance.  Under high noise conditions the DeZorel by itself is clearly not enough.  Seems to me digital needs a lot of filtration and isolation in order for things to sound right.  On Lak's highly revealling system both the DeZorel and the T4 have performed really well.  Take into account that Lak's 220V isolation transformers already have (-146 dB) of noise reduction!  

Given theses circumstances I think is better to wait until Deano's top of the line BPT 3.5 gets delivered in the next week or so.  He's got a highly revealling analog and digital front end and we should be able to do a proper comparison.

[Dan Banquer]

John R.
   Power transformers are not "balanced". There are just two leads on the primary for either 120V or 240V. The usual configuration does not have a center tap on the primary to ground.

[RussKon]

"Like Satfrat said, if you listen to what I have to say you might learn something."

well...i am waiting...

all you have done so far is tell me that i am out of touch with reality "dude"

please enlighten me with your vast knowledge....

i have, however, really enjoyed the comments of quite a few people on this thread who have actually said something of substance

"as far as measurements, Russ, please measure soundstage, imaging, transient, decay etc for me. most wouldn't argue on speaker auditioning these qualities exist. "

i would gladly measure those qualities...please tell me how you measure "soundstage" and "imaging"..... what scientific method do you use to measure those qualities???

hey folks....i'm trying to learn..... please give me some scientific way to measure these qualities.....

[PhilNYC]

Unfortunately, for a lot of this stuff, there's no way to measure it even though our ears can hear differences clear as day.  10 years ago (prior to my high-end days when I was completely stuck in Sony-land), I got cross-eyed everytime someone talked about "burn-in".  But now, having spent a good number of years owning and working with high end components, it's not even a question to me whether burn-in is real or not...its simply "how long"...and there's no way to measure burn-in.

Of all the tweaks I've played with, there has been no bigger effect on a high end system's sonic presentation than changing a power cord.  I've not yet experimented with power conditioners, but if the power cord effects are any indication, I expect to hear vast changes in my system based on using a power conditioner....

[Psychicanimal]

"Like Satfrat said, if you listen to what I have to say you might learn something."

well...i am waiting...

all you have done so far is tell me that i am out of touch with reality "dude"

please enlighten me with your vast knowledge....

Search the archives here, in Audiogon and the Asylum.

You must be out of touch when you try to convey your erroneous impression as *truth*.  Sorry, I can't help you with that.  Go ahead and lease a Noise Sniffer.  You have to do your own legwork and I do not see you having a proper frame of mind for learning.  Like the Chinese say, "You must first empty your teacup..."

Here's some food for thought on something that cannot be measured:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?htech&1040961591&read&keyw&zzoutlet

And here's the system of someone that listened to me regarding noise filtration--notice how different is the Clear Image T4 from the stuff you sell (I have three standard T4's):

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vdone&1041994460

With psychic power and primal intensity,

P/A

[RussKon]

"You must be out of touch when you try to convey your erroneous impression as *truth*. Sorry, I can't help you with that. Go ahead and lease a Noise Sniffer. You have to do your own legwork and I do not see you having a proper frame of mind for learning. Like the Chinese say, "You must first empty your teacup..." "

i have the perfect "frame of mind" for learning..... i have a very scientific mind.... i believe what can be proven...

you keep telling me to "search the forums"... i have done that...this forum and many others... and yet in all of the postings out there  - NO ONE CAN PROVIDE ME WITH ANY SCIENTIFIC PROOF!....

just like the two internet references that you posted....(very humorous by the way - you cite one reference of yourself making a post!!! - LOL) all SUBJECTIVE IMPRESSIONS.

if you feel that you receive sonic advantages from purchasing high end power cords and exotic power conditioners - great!!!

something that many of us that visit and post in the forums forget..... WE ARE IN THE MINORITY OF AUDIO CONSUMERS.... if 100% of all forum users in all audio forums were in agreement about anything....power cords, interconnects, etc. ...it would still be less than 10% of all audio consumers out there..... not to mention that anyone can post on these forums... even me - someone "out-of-touch with reality"...heck they even let you post!!!!....LOL

and....just because i have a different opinion about something that you (or anyone else) cannot scientifically prove really does not call for comments like "out of touch with reality" ,  "your erroneous impression of the truth", or "you do not have the proper frame of mind for learning".....


best wishes with your "truth" as you see it.....

i'm outta here.... i don't need abuse from the likes of you....

[witchdoctor]

Hi,
I own the Monster HTSP 7000 power conditioner. My review was posted here a while back. It has a meter on the front that tells you the voltage from the Wall Outlet. It is rarely at 120 in my home. Hence the need to restore it to 120. You can plug a meter into one of the balanced outlets from the conditioner to verify it is indeed working.

[Marbles]

John R.
   Power transformers are not "balanced". There are just two leads on the primary for either 120V or 240V. The usual configuration does not have a center tap on the primary to ground.

Sorry for pasting this whole thing, but it's a gif

Anyway if you read it, Chris Says his are balanced....maybe you can discuss it with him.

[Psychicanimal]

The first and most basic scientific activity is observation (in this case hearing).  Perception cannot be separated from the scientific process.  I told you to get a ONEAC line viewer and an oscilloscope to visually see and quantify noise in the electrical line.  That will prove how erroneous you are.  Are you afraid?

As for the abuse, nobody is abusing you.   I have lost track of how many people have e-mailed me for help with their noise control issues.   Everybody's been satisfied with the way I've helped them.  I am quite experienced regarding this subject and plan to start school in the fall to become a noise control professional.

Perdona sa'e...

[Psychicanimal]

Marbles, a balanced transformer is a special kind of transformer.  Instead of having (+120, 0) volts it has (+60,-60) volts.  There's a really good discussion on this subject in the Jon Risch website.

Hey, I have a trip pending, don't I?      

Send me a private e-mail...

P/A

[JohnR]

John R.
   Power transformers are not "balanced". There are just two leads on the primary for either 120V or 240V. The usual configuration does not have a center tap on the primary to ground.

Ah OK. Why is the center tap needed? You still get common mode rejection if the primary is floating.

[JohnR]

Anyway if you read it, Chris Says his are balanced....maybe you can discuss it with him.

The BPT produces balanced power. Dan's point (which I fail to understand) is that the transformers in the gear you are connecting to the BPT are not balanced.