Class D amplifiers versus tube and solid state

bluemike · « **Reply #20 on:** 4 May 2013, 07:30 pm »

It's all about the application
I think to get it right to your ears you need to know what you're after - chip amps can sound sublime if paired correctly within a system

Mr Peabody · « **Reply #21 on:** 4 May 2013, 07:54 pm »

Yeah, if I wasn't already committed and had the funds the Octave Audio tube gear is incredible. Another example of no matter the technology there can be excellent results.

medium jim · « **Reply #22 on:** 5 May 2013, 07:05 pm »

If you really want to know about tube amps:

http://www.stereophile.com/category/tube-power-amp-reviews

Jim

geowak · « **Reply #23 on:** 7 May 2013, 10:10 pm »

About this time last year I was auditioning some Magnepan 1.7 speakers. I had heard them at one dealer with a nice Tubed McIntosh amp which really made them sing. But later I had the chance to listen to the 1.7's at another dealer with a Rotel class D amp hooked up. The 1.7's lost all the allure they had! The upper band was shrill, the midrange was not smooth and the bass was lacking. It was at that moment I lost interest in class D. Perhaps the Mac had the unfair advantage in price so I will keep an open mind. (Maybe Rotel does not have their lower end class D perfected yet, but for now I am still a SS and tube fan).

SteveFord · « **Reply #24 on:** 7 May 2013, 10:20 pm »

I guess it's really all what you like, isn't it?
I like the sound of VTL amps so that's what I use for the big systems.
Everything else just sounds a little off to me - not bad but it's just not the sound that I want.

Rclark · « **Reply #25 on:** 7 May 2013, 11:24 pm »

Quote from: geowak on 7 May 2013, 10:10 pm

About this time last year I was auditioning some Magnepan 1.7 speakers. I had heard them at one dealer with a nice Tubed McIntosh amp which really made them sing. But later I had the chance to listen to the 1.7's at another dealer with a Rotel class D amp hooked up. The 1.7's lost all the allure they had! The upper band was shrill, the midrange was not smooth and the bass was lacking. It was at that moment I lost interest in class D. Perhaps the Mac had the unfair advantage in price so I will keep an open mind. (Maybe Rotel does not have their lower end class D perfected yet, but for now I am still a SS and tube fan).

You should try some Hypex class d. I know someone running them on 1.7's and his jaw hit the floor on first listen. Imo unless you've heard Ncores, your reference point for class d is out of date.

jarcher · « **Reply #26 on:** 8 May 2013, 06:11 am »

Last weekend listened to some borrowed bel canto ref500m monoblock class d amps with my magnepan 1.7s. I was very impressed - warmer and non fatiguing than lots of solid state amps I've heard (particularly compared to my krell). Really made me drop my class d prejudice. It's based on modded B&O ice power class d modules. Massive power (500wpc into 4 ohms), light, compact, energy efficient. I was impressed enough to consider going class d to replace the Krell for multichannel home theater. For 2 channel I think I'd still prefer a good tube amp. "Good" being the operative word. As already said, I think there are mediocre tube amps just as their are mediocre class d amps - its the implementation that counts.

With that said I think ncore class d modules seem to be the current rage vs the older B&O modules. My only complaint is that it still seems to me that "high end" class d amps are still way over priced. But I guess that's just par for the course in the "high end" audio world.....

wisnon · « **Reply #27 on:** 8 May 2013, 08:00 am »

Anyone here tried the Arion hybrid amps?

They have some great reviews from customers online.

roscoeiii · « **Reply #28 on:** 8 May 2013, 02:06 pm »

Quote from: Rclark on 7 May 2013, 11:24 pm

You should try some Hypex class d. I know someone running them on 1.7's and his jaw hit the floor on first listen. Imo unless you've heard Ncores, your reference point for class d is out of date.

Well, like SS amps and tube amps, within the Class D world there are a number of flavors. Some of this may be due to different class D modules being used, some may be due to the way a designer implemented the class D module in a particular design.

What works best will depend on your preferences and system, as always.

roscoeiii · « **Reply #29 on:** 8 May 2013, 02:49 pm »

An interesting comparison of two very compelling integrated Class D (ICE Power module) amps that include DACs:

http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2013/05/wyred4sound-mint-peachtree-nova125-review-sorts/

Would be interested in knowing how the Rogue Sphinx (tube + Hypex) stacks up to the Peachtree and Wyred4Sound.

medium jim · « **Reply #30 on:** 8 May 2013, 04:08 pm »

It is nice to see that for the most part, nobody is saying this is best and you're an idiot if you argue otherwise. It all comes down to personal preference and tastes. The best is whatever floats your boat or mine. I recently came into a new (for me) tube amp that brings the best of SS (dynamics, space and air) with that of Tubes (soundstage, midrange, highs and sweetness) into one amp. It makes me a happy camper and that is what Hi Fi is supposed to do no matter the topology.

The best answer to the riddle is, go out and find what is best for you.

Jim

Rclark · « **Reply #31 on:** 8 May 2013, 04:46 pm »

Quote from: roscoeiii on 8 May 2013, 02:49 pm

An interesting comparison of two very compelling integrated Class D (ICE Power module) amps that include DACs:

http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2013/05/wyred4sound-mint-peachtree-nova125-review-sorts/

Would be interested in knowing how the Rogue Sphinx (tube + Hypex) stacks up to the Peachtree and Wyred4Sound.

You're right, there are more and more options. Class d amps seemed to become amazing as though a switch has been thrown.

It's like, duh, everyone knows class d used to be horrible, and recently. But technology changed. Used to be you couldn't get an unstable fighter plane to fly, till computers enabled it. Now you wouldn't think of designing a plane without that maneuverability-enabling instability.

So class d has crossed a threshold and unless you've tried this new gen in your system, any railing against class d looks a bit foolish.

medium jim · « **Reply #32 on:** 8 May 2013, 05:42 pm »

Quote from: Rclark on 8 May 2013, 04:46 pm

You're right, there are more and more options. Class d amps seemed to become amazing as though a switch has been thrown.

It's like, duh, everyone knows class d used to be horrible, and recently. But technology changed. Used to be you couldn't get an unstable fighter plane to fly, till computers enabled it. Now you wouldn't think of designing a plane without that maneuverability-enabling instability.

So class d has crossed a threshold and unless you've tried this new gen in your system, any railing against class d looks a bit foolish.

So why did you rail against tube amp's when you had no experience with them?

Jim

Rclark · « **Reply #33 on:** 8 May 2013, 05:47 pm »

Who hasn't heard a tube amp? I just never owned one. Anyway, that's as far as I want to take that, you can grapple with someone else.

cheap-Jack · « **Reply #34 on:** 8 May 2013, 06:07 pm »

Hi.

Quote from: sonicxtc on 11 Dec 2011, 07:33 pm

Hi Everyone,

I am seriously considering making a move from tube amplifiers to class D amps.

will class D amps mate well with a tube pre-amplifier. Will it give you a bit of the "best of both worlds," like tube pre and solid state amps?
Thank you.

Class D chip modules are now extentively used in nearly all commercial brandname home theatre receivers & home theatre-in-a-boxes for their small size (IC chips) & extremely high efficiency - deliver hundred watts of audio O/P power, e.g. Sony, Pioneer. Yamaha, Samsung, LG, Panasonic, etc etc. Compact size yet deliver 100s watts O/P power & very cool running.

Samsung is the first & so far the only brandname manufacturer to start supplying to the consumer markets tube preamp+classs D power amp hybrid HT-in-boxes, & its "SoundDock" - standalone stereo soundbox with optical, smartphone , USB I/P. Retail for $699.99. Both use 1 pair of ECC82 tubes as preamp driving intergrated classs D power amp.

I've heard the SoundDock which sounds pretty good for TV & general audio use. For real audiophile use like mine, thanks but no thanks.

c-J

medium jim · « **Reply #35 on:** 8 May 2013, 08:36 pm »

Reza:

Not grappling or otherwise, just making an observation based on your prior postings.

Jim

bummrush · « **Reply #36 on:** 8 May 2013, 08:46 pm »

My experience was lass d wowed me at first but long term they were unlistenerable.. And the thing is I really don't know what the problem was with class d but to me it actually irritated me.

Freo-1 · « **Reply #37 on:** 8 May 2013, 09:07 pm »

Quote from: bummrush on 8 May 2013, 08:46 pm

My experience was lass d wowed me at first but long term they were unlistenerable.. And the thing is I really don't know what the problem was with class d but to me it actually irritated me.

Yep. Mine as well.

A good friend of mine (who's listening tastes I trust) had auditioned Ncores for a period of time. He came away with a lot of good things to say the amps did, BUT, he did not like them overall. While they had a very clean and detailed presentation, his conclusion was that the amps were sterile, flat, two dimensional, and lacked body/soul. What that means exactly is open to debate, but since his tastes are similar to what I have, would reckon that I would not like them all that much. I have owned a number of class D amps over the years, and while they certainly have gotten better, they are not what I would consider sufficient to sell my Pass Labs or DIY tube units (yet).

Having said all that, would certainly audition a pair myself if available, and draw my own conclusions. Given their principals of operation, hard to see how they would be as smooth as a high end conventional amp setup.

This is a very SUBJECTIVE hobby after all, so I'm sure for some, they have a different point of view. Given all the variables in setting up a quality audio rig, it's little wonder subjects like this get debated ad nauseum.

Rclark · « **Reply #38 on:** 8 May 2013, 10:05 pm »

I'm guessing your friend lives in the Ozarks

. You're right this hobby is subjective, and most people who've tried them have come away with quite a different perspective. Heck, we even have a circle, just for this one amp, that's how good the subjective reaction has been.

Horses for courses, your mileage may never vary, and all that. Cheers.

Btw, surprised you or Tom don't bring up the Millenia. It's a type of class d. Pretty nice, right?

medium jim · « **Reply #39 on:** 8 May 2013, 10:15 pm »

Reza:

The circle you mentioned has turned into a place where a few DIY'ers have made it into a cottage industry for profit. Anyone who posted a less than flattering review got blasted for doing so.

Jim