AudioCircle
Other Stuff => Archived Manufacturer Circles => Red Wine Audio => Topic started by: 6rs on 5 Sep 2008, 07:13 am
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Out of curiosity, I have started to try different tubes in the Isabella. I use the mapleshade tube anchors and like all tubes better with them.
Compared to the stock tubes,
- Matshushita E88CC 6922 Japan - MINT NOS NIB Mullard Tooling seem to resolve a bit better. The midrange may be sounding slightly thinner.
- Tungsram (not sure what variety, they are labeled in red letters) have more air and dimensionality (maybe even more than "realistic"?), less "slam" than the others. Bass has less pressure, but more definition. I hear more details, complex passages seem to be resolved better. Very seducing sound. This is the best tube of the three in my opinion.
I have ordered:
- Tesla with the 32 factory code
- and Siemens gold pin (not quite sure what year etc).
Vinnie informed me that the "holy grail" in 6922 tubes are the Amperex pinched waist tubes? However, they seem very hard to get at all. Based on past sales, the price of a pair is from 400$ to 800$ :o
BTW, a highly recommended upgrade to the Isabella are the Boston Audio Tuneblocks (I have the XT version with Tungsten Carbide bearing). The sound becomes more stable and transparent. Those improvements are not subtle in my opinion.
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You might check out some NOS Mullards.... (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=57513.msg516421#msg516421).. :wink:
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Hi 6rs,
Excellent post! :thumb:
This is a great thread to share your Isabella tube rolling experiences.
This might be helpful for those looking for a great sounding set of tubes:
The other night I visited Steve at North Lake Audio (20 minutes South of RWA, in Hamden, CT).
He has a small stash of Amperex 7308s (get 'em while there are HOT! 8) ):
- Amperex USN-CEP (military grade), gold pins, 7308 tubes.
- Matched pairs (he has a very nice tube tester tha the showed me and matched them all)
- All are 1965 production, white letter, U.S.A. (Amperex New York)
manufacturer (Philips) Amperex factory date code: VR5 *5D
- Price: $120.00 per pair
- Contact: nlaudio@sbcglobal.net
We tried them in the Isabella and they are magic and well worth the asking price, IMO! (especially since I know Steve is a very reputable source and carefully tests every tube to make sure they are matched and perform like new). The midrange is amazing on these, and they still have the bass control and "punch" as the stock JJs. The top end is very sweet, airy, and extended on these as well...
NOTE: I have NO business affiliation with North Lake Audio, but Steve and I have become friends. We enjoy listening in his awesome room, going out to New Haven, CT for great food and live music, etc. I recommend my Isabella customers to Steve if they are looking to tube roll without the risk of getting ripped off with bad tubes that do not perform as they should and are not really "matched" or performing "like new" as advertised.
Thanks again,
Vinnie
PS: At the last NYAR, Levi swapped in some NOS tubes in our Isabella. They sounded beautiful as well! Levi, can you remind me which tubes they were? (Amperex?) Thanks!
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Thanks for the tip on the tubes from North Lake Audio. I have a pair on the way and will try and post my impressions later on.
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Hi
An update on my recent tube rolling experiments.
I got the Tesla gold-pins with the 32 factory code, and the Siemens goldpins (supposely from the sixties).
The Tesla are nicely balanced and do everything quite well: Have nice bass, slam, voices are seductive. They may not be top in each category, for example the Tungsram are more airy, have better texture in the bass, nevertheless they represent an excellent value.
The Siemens are remarkable in their way. They offer high resolution and provide a lot of texture to each instrument and/or sound. Bass is solid too. They do not sound harsh, but in a way lack a bit of "magic" or intimacy. However, in their way they are very nice, especially for classical music.
While these observations are reproducible with my individual tube pairs (I used the same music for the comparisons), I do not know how representative they are for a whole brand or production batch.
I am looking forward to the Amperex 7308.
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Hi
An update on my recent tube rolling experiments.
I got the Tesla gold-pins with the 32 factory code, and the Siemens goldpins (supposely from the sixties).
The Tesla are nicely balanced and do everything quite well: Have nice bass, slam, voices are seductive. They may not be top in each category, for example the Tungsram are more airy, have better texture in the bass, nevertheless they represent an excellent value.
The Siemens are remarkable in their way. They offer high resolution and provide a lot of texture to each instrument and/or sound. Bass is solid too. They do not sound harsh, but in a way lack a bit of "magic" or intimacy. However, in their way they are very nice, especially for classical music.
While these observations are reproducible with my individual tube pairs (I used the same music for the comparisons), I do not know how representative they are for a whole brand or production batch.
I am looking forward to the Amperex 7308.
Hi 6rs,
Thanks for the feedback on the Teslas. I've tried a pair of Telsa PCC88s, and while they probably are not the same model Tesla that you are using, they seemed to have the sonic characteristics that you mention (well-balanced sound that does a lot of things very well).
I do not know how representative they are for a whole brand or production batch.
This is an excellent point! Different production lots of tubes from different years - there is quite a bit of variance with tubes. Also, unless you know you are getting a good pair of tubes - low usage, matched (or close to it!), up to specs, etc. - one has to be careful not to say "this make/model/year" sucks" when it can be a bum tube(s) :nono: I guess this is why people add "YMMV" to their posts :green:
Still - it is very helpful and appreciated for everyone to share your findings. I'll be posting some of my findings soon....
Vinnie
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Also, unless you know you are getting a good pair of tubes - low usage, matched (or close to it!), up to specs, etc.
Actually I forgot to mention that all the tube pairs came with measurements and were matched pairs. However, I have no means to double-check those claims, but have no reason for mistrust either.
BTW, a bit off-topic: I have exchanged the inductor in the mid/bass driver section of the Xover (ATC SCM20) from Alphacore to Duelund. I had doubts about that move and was prepared to regret spending the cash on the Duelunds. There is a substantial fraction of people (including ATC itself) that would think such a part swap is ridiculous and improvements are not to be expected and, if perceived, solely due to "placebo effect". However, my ears and brain tell me otherwise: the sound improvement was substantial - residual grain in female voices is gone, sound is more effortless.
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I just recieved the Amperex 7308. I only got a chance to spend about 15 minutes and only one peice of music with them so far. I listened to Ammie Mann and all I will to say at this point is it is a huge improvement over the stock tubes in my system. I will try and post more details after I get some more time.
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Best tube ever (sorry to say) are the most expensive Siemens Cca from the late 50's !....... :D
I have tried almost all tubes in the ECC88 family, and must say that most are wast of valuable time compared to the Siemens Cca !...... :dance:
If you want to check this wonderful tube out; then please be aware to have the right stuff (huge difference) !...... :D
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Best tube ever (sorry to say) are the most expensive Siemens Cca from the late 50's !....... :D
I have tried almost all tubes in the ECC88 family, and must say that most are wast of valuable time compared to the Siemens Cca !...... :dance:
If you want to check this wonderful tube out; then please be aware to have the right stuff (huge difference) !...... :D
Did you also try a Telefunken CCa? When you say "the right stuff", you refer to forgeries, or Siemens CCa from later (70s)? What are the diagnostic traits of a Siemens CCa from the late 50s?
Thanks!
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Best tube ever (sorry to say) are the most expensive Siemens Cca from the late 50's !....... :D
I have tried almost all tubes in the ECC88 family, and must say that most are wast of valuable time compared to the Siemens Cca !...... :dance:
If you want to check this wonderful tube out; then please be aware to have the right stuff (huge difference) !...... :D
Did you also try a Telefunken CCa? When you say "the right stuff", you refer to forgeries, or Siemens CCa from later (70s)? What are the diagnostic traits of a Siemens CCa from the late 50s?
Thanks!
Yes, I have tried the Telefunken Cca's too - also a very, very good sounding tube too !....... :D
But the Siemens Cca's (from late 50's to first 60's) just have a touch more of air, 3D, naturalness - just sound right !....... :D
Compared to the Siemens Cca's all new tubes that I know of, sounds mechanical (almost didital) and un-natural !.......
I have tried the Siemens Cca's from the 70's too - better than new tubes in general, but nothing compared to the real stuff !...... 8)
So it is - unfortunately !..... :wink:
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I just recieved the Amperex 7308. I only got a chance to spend about 15 minutes and only one peice of music with them so far. I listened to Ammie Mann and all I will to say at this point is it is a huge improvement over the stock tubes in my system. I will try and post more details after I get some more time.
Hi Afterimage,
Besides the Amperex "pinched waist" tubes that are very rare and too expensive, the Amperex 7308s that Steve at North Lake Audio is selling are my favorite so far! They have such an effortless sound and amazing tonal balance - I love 'em! :thumb:
Steve also told me that he came across a small batch of Amperex 6DJ8 "orange globe logo" made in Holland tubes. I just picked up a pair from him and will be testing them soon. He mentioned that they'll be less expensive (I think he said $70/pair) and he is in the process of carefully testing them with his tube tester and matching them.
But the Siemens Cca's (from late 50's to first 60's) just have a touch more of air, 3D, naturalness - just sound right !.......
Hi Carsten,
Thanks for posting. Do yo have these Siemens Cca's to try with the Isabella? I hope to be able to find a pair one day and try...
I have to admit, this tube rolling thing is a lot of fun and a little addicting! aa
Vinnie
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Hi Vinnie !....... :D
As you might guess tube rolling are not new to me !....... 8)
During the last 12 years or so I have had (and still have) a lot of tube gear (pre-amp's, power-amp's and DAC's) - in fact I have had so much tube based equipment that I found it absolutely necessary to have my own private tube tester !........ 8)
Answer to your question:
Yes, the Siemens Cca's are placed in the socket's of my Isabella - a huge difference !....... :D
I know the Amperex tubes too - unfortunately I have to tell you, that they don't even come close to the Cca's - sorry !...... :oops:
You have to hear the real stuff one day !...... 8)
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Hi Carsten,
Steve here, from North Lake Audio. I've had all of the 6DJ8/6922/7308 types, too. I had the Siemens CCA and I prefer the Amperex pinched waist over them. There are several versions of the CCA and the best are, as often the case, the earliest D-getter variety. These go for in excess of $300 a pair, the last I checked.
I think another consideration is the plate voltage (and other parameters) at which the component designer is running the tube. This is probably one of the reasons why the same tube type may not be preferable in a different component.
Another example was ARC preamp owners insisting on using the Amperex Bugle Boys in them. They claimed they were the best-sounding in that piece (e.g., ARC SP10).
All that being said, I would also be interested in hearing the CCA in the Isabella. Whatever the outcome, I heard the Amperex 7308 gold pin in the Isabella in my system, and it sounded very good....a major improvement over the stock JJ tubes.
Cost is a consideration here, of course. People can spend $600 on a pair of Amperex pinched waist tubes if they like. However, I think there are probably a lot of people who are happier spending a lot less for a major improvement over the stock JJ tubes (although they are probably the best of new production).
Regards,
Steve
North Lake Audio
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Hi Steve !...... :D
You may have a point by your argument !...... 8)
Unfortunately the case with the Siemens Cca's are that most people buying this tube get's cheated big time !....... They are NOT getting what they are told by the seller !...... :(
I have been doing Simens Cca's right from the start of my "tube life", and can tell real clear that I (when I was not that experienced) was cheated several times too !....... :(
When tou have a Siemens Cca it's In fact very hard to verify if it's the right stuff - but still there are some characteristics !......
If you have some Siemens Cca's and you don't know if they are the right stuff, then please feel free to sent me some detailed pics of each of them. I then study the tubes, and tell you what you have !........ 8)
The differences between the different types are unbelieveble !..... :D
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If you have some Siemens Cca's and you don't know if they are the right stuff, then please feel free to sent me some detailed pics of each of them. I then study the tubes, and tell you what you have !........ 8)
Well, just bought some off ebay. Are they the real thing?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150295483978&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOIBSA:GB:1123#ebayphotohosting
Thanks!
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Hi 6RS !.......
Not bad at all !...... 8)
I may need more pics to be 100 % sure !....... 8)
But here it is:
The left tube are the right stuff, and the right tube are just a few years newer - both real good stuff !....... 8)
You have to ensure that both of the tubes are measuring 100 %, and that none of them have any problems with noise and microphonics !.......
Then you are on the road to heaven !....... :D
Please post your impressions here in this forum - I'm quite sure you'll be amazed by the sound from this outstanding tubes !.... 8)
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Thanks Carsten, for your expertise
You have to ensure that both of the tubes are measuring 100 %, and that none of them have any problems with noise and microphonics !.......
Yes, this is the risk I have taken. On the other hand, the price was ok. Since I have no tube tester, I will have to rely on my ears to detect any potential problems.
I will compare to the Amperex 7308 from Steve (they will provide a positive control of a matched pair of nice tubes in good health), and the pair of Siemens e88cc (from the sixties) I got off ebay (they measured >100%, according to seller).
Thanks!
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Hi 6rs,
Nice find! aa
Please keep us posted!
Thanks,
Vinnie
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I just recieved the Amperex 7308. I only got a chance to spend about 15 minutes and only one peice of music with them so far. I listened to Ammie Mann and all I will to say at this point is it is a huge improvement over the stock tubes in my system. I will try and post more details after I get some more time.
A pipe burst and my basement flooded. All of my stuff is okay, but I am out of the game until I can get the drywallers and new carpet down.
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I just recieved the Amperex 7308. I only got a chance to spend about 15 minutes and only one peice of music with them so far. I listened to Ammie Mann and all I will to say at this point is it is a huge improvement over the stock tubes in my system. I will try and post more details after I get some more time.
A pipe burst and my basement flooded. All of my stuff is okay, but I am out of the game until I can get the drywallers and new carpet down.
Hi Afterimage,
Sorry to hear about your basement blues. Luckily your gear is ok, and hopefully you'll be up and running again soon. The Amp 7308s are gems!
Vinnie
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[/quote]
The Amp 7308s are gems!
[/quote]
aa We'll see. Ordered a pair from Steve also. Good guy!
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I just recieved the Amperex 7308. I only got a chance to spend about 15 minutes and only one peice of music with them so far. I listened to Ammie Mann and all I will to say at this point is it is a huge improvement over the stock tubes in my system. I will try and post more details after I get some more time.
A pipe burst and my basement flooded. All of my stuff is okay, but I am out of the game until I can get the drywallers and new carpet down.
Hi Afterimage,
Sorry to hear about your basement blues. Luckily your gear is ok, and hopefully you'll be up and running again soon. The Amp 7308s are gems!
Vinnie
Hey Vinnie, remember when I kept having trouble with chargers? Well the reason chargers did not appear to be working in my system was the moisture in the walls was causing shorts. At least that is what they told me anyway.
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I got the Siemens CCa. I compared their sound the Amperex 7308 usn from Steve.
The Amperex have a nice "earthy" sound. It is like coming home, very welcoming, and giving a sense of familiarity.
The Siemens however give the music a heavenly touch of beauty which is just irresistible. No coloration or sugar coating - it is just easier to emotionally connect to the music. They have less slam, and their midbass is less prominent. However, their authority in deep bass is amazing: very quick and with pressure. Also, they are extremely smooth and liquid. I was expecting them to be a bit "teutonic", that is providing resolution at the price of some harshness. But not at all.
The problem with the pair I got off ebay: one tube is louder than the other.
However, for me it is a clear case: I prefer the Siemens, and I am willing to spend the money to get a really nice and matched pair.
But don't get me wrong. You could get perfectly happy with the Amperex. For electric guitar and rock, they might be perferable.
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I got the Siemens CCa. I compared their sound the Amperex 7308 usn from Steve.
The Amperex have a nice "earthy" sound. It is like coming home, very welcoming, and giving a sense of familiarity.
The Siemens however give the music a heavenly touch of beauty which is just irresistible. No coloration or sugar coating - it is just easier to emotionally connect to the music. They have less slam, and their midbass is less prominent. However, their authority in deep bass is amazing: very quick and with pressure. Also, they are extremely smooth and liquid. I was expecting them to be a bit "teutonic", that is providing resolution at the price of some harshness. But not at all.
The problem with the pair I got off ebay: one tube is louder than the other.
However, for me it is a clear case: I prefer the Siemens, and I am willing to spend the money to get a really nice and matched pair.
But don't get me wrong. You could get perfectly happy with the Amperex. For electric guitar and rock, they might be perferable.
Hi 6rs,
Thanks for the comparison! At some point I am going to have to give those a try aa
Right now I'm listening to a pair of the "orange globe" Amperex 6DJ8s that Steve has a few pair of - also very nice indeed! I'll do a comparison to the Amperex 7308s after RMAF...
Vinnie
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Got A 7308s today from Steve. If you read this, thanks a lot :notworthy:. From the very first listening impressions it was obvious that they are definitely an improvement over JJs. At this point - it was well worth it :D. Thanks to you also, Vinnie! Carsten, if you read this: I live in Finland and if you happened to have those rare Siemenses - please, hit me with pm!
jouni
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Got A 7308s today from Steve. If you read this, thanks a lot :notworthy:. From the very first listening impressions it was obvious that they are definitely an improvement over JJs. At this point - it was well worth it :D. Thanks to you also, Vinnie! Carsten, if you read this: I live in Finland and if you happened to have those rare Siemenses - please, hit me with pm!
jouni
Hi !.......
Happy to see that you are tube rolling !.........
If I possibly could, I would be more than happy to help you with some Siemens Cca's !....... Unfortunately I only have a few lef for my self !.......
Right now Winnie Rossie are playing on a pair of Siemens Cca's !........
Cant wait to hear what he thinks about these wonderful tubes !......
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Hi Carsten,
The Siemens Cca's you sent me are indeed very good! :singing:
They seem to do a good job in offering a lot of detail and extension, but still offering a rich tone and
solid bass. Seems like you get just about the best of everything with these! What do the Cca's usually sell for if you can
find them?
I wish I had a pair of Amperex Pinched Waist tubes to compare them to. I heard these at Steve's and they
were my favorite, but very expensive and Steve only had one pair.
I will say that the beauty of tube rolling is that you can fine-tune the sound to best suit your system, and your tastes. For
some, the stock JJ's will actually be one of the best choices in their system. I really depends on the rest of the equipment, such
as the power amp, speakers, cables, and of course the listening room and the tastes of the listener.
Having said all that, the Siemens Cca's and Amperex Pinched Waists are the best I have heard (my tastes), followed by the Amperex 7308s gold-pins that Steve used to sell (he sold out already, but still has some NOS Amperex orange globe 6DJ8s, some Amperex "A frames" and a bunch of GE "smoked glass" type which I hope to listen to soon).
Thanks for giving me the opportunity to listen to these!
Vinnie
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What do the Cca's usually sell for if you can
find them?
It is my impression that the Siemens CCa are not that rare. I paid 330$ for a NOS matched pair (O-getter, gray plates, sixities) that measures 140% of published minimal new values. Found on ebay, from a German seller.
Bruno
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For some, the stock JJ's will actually be one of the best choices in their system. I really depends on the rest of the equipment, such
as the power amp, speakers, cables, and of course the listening room and the tastes of the listener.
Sure, the stock tubes do sound nice already - however I bet if Jeff from Tonepub would have had some really nice tubes at hand (he does not mention which ones he tried) he would have noticed an improvement as well...
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Hi Carsten,
The Siemens Cca's you sent me are indeed very good! :singing:
They seem to do a good job in offering a lot of detail and extension, but still offering a rich tone and
solid bass. Seems like you get just about the best of everything with these! What do the Cca's usually sell for if you can
find them?
I wish I had a pair of Amperex Pinched Waist tubes to compare them to. I heard these at Steve's and they
were my favorite, but very expensive and Steve only had one pair.
I will say that the beauty of tube rolling is that you can fine-tune the sound to best suit your system, and your tastes. For
some, the stock JJ's will actually be one of the best choices in their system. I really depends on the rest of the equipment, such
as the power amp, speakers, cables, and of course the listening room and the tastes of the listener.
Having said all that, the Siemens Cca's and Amperex Pinched Waists are the best I have heard (my tastes), followed by the Amperex 7308s gold-pins that Steve used to sell (he sold out already, but still has some NOS Amperex orange globe 6DJ8s, some Amperex "A frames" and a bunch of GE "smoked glass" type which I hope to listen to soon).
Thanks for giving me the opportunity to listen to these!
Vinnie
Any suggestions on where to go to get a good matched set of Siemens Cca's from a reliable source?
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I’ve been listening to a set of the Amperex 7308s for about 2 months now. I find the best way for me to evaluate tubes is to leave the new ones in for a month or two to get used to them, then throw the old ones back in and see if I miss the others (as opposed to alternating listening sessions with each pair). My verdict is that I didn’t really miss the Amperex; the character is more open and airy and the stock tubes seemed to have more body. However the contrast wasn’t striking. I rolled combinations of many types and varieties of tubes in a Singlepower headphone amp, before I sold it, and had much more dramatic results. Overall, I’ll probably stick with the stock tubes for now, as they sound a little better with my Cain & Cain speakers (which use Fostex drivers). I like Vinnie’s advice, that the system (especially the speaker) is going to decide…whether your $100-400 tube purchase is going to be an improvement or no improvement at all. For drivers like Foxtex and Lowther, you might do just as well with the stock. I may switch to some Zu in the future and evaluate again.
If your Isabella doesn’t already sound amazing, I’m inclined to think there are other areas where you need to dial in your system that will have a greater impact than rolling tubes. See my comment about Sorbothane in the Footer topic.
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Got A 7308s today from Steve. If you read this, thanks a lot :notworthy:. From the very first listening impressions it was obvious that they are definitely an improvement over JJs. At this point - it was well worth it :D. Thanks to you also, Vinnie! Carsten, if you read this: I live in Finland and if you happened to have those rare Siemenses - please, hit me with pm!
jouni
Hi !.......
Happy to see that you are tube rolling !.........
If I possibly could, I would be more than happy to help you with some Siemens Cca's !....... Unfortunately I only have a few lef for my self !.......
Right now Winnie Rossie are playing on a pair of Siemens Cca's !........
Cant wait to hear what he thinks about these wonderful tubes !......
Carsten, if you're still watching this. I'm still trying to figure out the whole naming thing with tubes. Apparently different manufactures use different names / numbers for essentially the same tube, correct? So with Siemens, is "Siemens Cca" the entire model number? Thanks for any help you can provide. Kent
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Here's a well known review of various tubes for those who haven't read it yet. It covers 6922, 7308 to 12ax7, etc...I believe this review alone drove up the prices of the Amperex pinched waist and Sylvania 3 mica 5751's (better version of 12ax7's).
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/faq/joes-tubes.html
IMO, Amperex and Siemens make the best tubes in the 6dj8 (6922/7308) family. To me, general differences between the two are Amperexes tend to be slightly more relaxed, euphoric, have more texture, and more bounce at the extremes: top (splashy) and bottom (punchy). Siemens tend to be tighter at the extremes, while the soundstage appears more upfront and brings you closer to the music. One word to describe it would be intimate. The review (joe) describes the differences as Siemens throwing out bigger images, while Amperexes throwing out smaller images, and this is similar to my findings overall (just expressed differently). Closer/intimate = bigger images = front row = less focused. Synergy has as much to do with tube choice IMO. Personally I prefer Siemens for its intimacy to the slightly more relaxed but focused Amperexes. Both are awesome though! Happy tube rolling folks.
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Hi,
well, after three months of extensive listening using Amperex 7308 tubes from Steve (good tubes), I decided to swap the stock tubes in place and hey, they aren't bad at all :D. In fact, they brought some more midrange flesh and tamed also the upper end a bit that my Omegas definitely liked that :). In a word, more common tubelike presentation overall. I think I'll let them stay in place for a while :thumb:. So, the system synergy seems to be the key word when choosing and ultimately judging the tubes for the equipment.. :roll:
(Btw, waiting the 8" Alnico XRSs.. :drool:)
Jouni
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Reading above posts where people went back to stock tubes, I did the same experiment and exchanged the Siemens CCa with the JJs.
Well, I much prefer the Siemens. I also tried the Amperex 7308. I also preferred these to the stock tubes. I concur with above post regarding the difference between Siemens and Amperex: The Amperex present the music like in a showcase, whereas the Siemens put you more inside the music (front row). I feel that deep bass has more impact with the Siemens, however seems leaner at the same time.
Bruno
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Well, after one day of listening the stock JJs I was tempted to swap the Amperexes back. The stock JJs offers more lush, softer presentation overall and the Amperexes definitely bring more definition, control, dynamics, speed and better 3D :D. So, am I deaf or stupid :duh: :o? Maybe both, but I think the Amperexes are for sure better tubes of the two, but to my ears, with some records, the stock tubes makes definitely more music. The better isn't always and necessarily the better. So, ultimately, it depends.. :roll:
Ok, happy with both set of tubes :D. Wish I had those Siemenses..
Jouni
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Vinnie just upgraded my Isabellina to the Isabella. It's very nice indeed. There is a healthy measure of body and density that the Isabellina DAC alone doesn't deliver. While I'm very happy with the upgrade, I think I'd like more high frequency sparkle. If I can get that with a little more dimensionality and texture, and not lose the smooth, analogue-like quality of the Isabella, then so much the better.
From reading this thread, it looks like the Siemens CCA are the tubes to get.
Also, how does the Amperex 7308 compare to the stock JJs when it comes to high frequency extension?
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Hey Wilson,
Congrats on the upgrade to the Isabella! I didn't expect that you would be moving up the food chain quite so quickly.
Regarding your Sig 30.2, did you have it converted to the power amp version or are you still using it with the Isabella as an integrated?
Also, with the Druids are you operating the Isabella in the full gain mode or at 0 db (no gain)?
Dave
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Dave ........it would be silly to add extra gain on Isabella and Zu Druids.
They can be easily driven with as little as 5wpc and 8-10wpc is plenty.
If I may,
higher gain setting does add distortion (noise) no question about it.
I would use it ONLY with speakers with sensitivity lower then 90db IF NEEDED.
It is a very nice feature but use it with caution.
You will be better of with more capable amp then compensating with the gain switch.IMO
The difference is subtle but noticeable.
As to the original topic, IMO JJ are very nice tubes for the money and as you can tell/know the Isabella was voiced using them. I prefer richer, warmer presentation but would love to try the Siemens to compare.
Can you post the pics by any chance or revile the source where they can be purchase?
Thanks
Mariusz
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So I don't hijack this thread, I posted my response regarding the upgrade to the Isabella here:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=62974.0
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Hi,
went back to Steve's Amperexes after the stock JJs and..they are absolutely fantastic NOS tubes :lol: :lol: (I laugh at myself)..but I won't throw the JJs away anyway..you got to have some good spare tooobes around :roll:..
jouni
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These tubes look to be promising, but from my very limited knowledge on the subject, they likely won't work with the Isabella. Would someone with more knowledge illuminate please?
http://www.techtubevalves.com/valves/index.php (http://www.techtubevalves.com/valves/index.php)
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The Isabella accepts the following tube types: 6922/E88CC, 6DJ8/ECC88, 7308/E188CC, 7DJ8/PCC88, 6N23, 6H23 and 6N11.
But TechTube Valves is (for now) making the ECC83/E813CC, ECC82/E812CC and the ECC81/E811CC, none of which are accepted by the Isabella.
A couple of more good places to go for appropriate tubes are:
Vintage Tube Services
http://www.vintagetubeservices.com/page18a.html
Look for the section titled 6DJ8, 6922, 7308.
Brent Jesse
http://www.audiotubes.com/6dj8.htm
Scroll down quite a bit and you'll see his stock list.
Vintage Tube Services has a stellar reputation, but he doesn't open up shop again until Jan 20, so I decided to go with Brent Jesse based on Jim's recommendation. I'd rather deal with a known quantity than roll the dice with EBay. Running into disreputable sellers, and not having my own test equipment, you know, the anxiety just isn't worth it.
As I understand, the Siemens CCa, while magical, it's tough to find a great pair and there are a number of them out there that turn microphonic later. I just ordered a pair Siemens E188CC (ultra premium 6DJ8/7308). While the Siemens E188C is perhaps not quite as magical, it still reputedly offers much of the character and performance of the CCa, and it's easier to find a good pair at (cough) a reasonable price.
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ymisc&1191291379&read&keyw&zzcca
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Vacuum tubes fell out of the mainstream long ago so it's not surprising that I know virtually nothing about their care, in particular, how they should be handled. There's plenty of postings that talk about how cotton gloves are essential and that you don't want to get fingerprints on the tubes because they'll cause hotspots, and there's even someone selling a purpose built "tube glove" here:
http://www.tweakshop.com/TubeGlove.html
I wrote Brent Jesse and asked him about this. Presumably, as a reputable dealer in tubes, he would know. As I'm sure he would not mind me sharing his response, here it is.
"Fingerprints do not harm the tube. Above all do not clean them, as cleaning will take off the fragile label! If you want to keep them as clean as possible, either handle them with cottom gloves, or carefully hold them only
by the top rim (or the black plastic base in the case of octal tubes) and do not touch the label. These NOS tubes have labels that are mostly powder with age, and rub off easily."
He further clarified regarding "hotspots":
"No, the power tubes do not get hot enough for the fingerprint to cause a hot spot. This happens with so-called quartz light bulbs (tungsten-halogen) since they burn at a bulb temperature that is nearly 1000 degrees on the
inside surface. The fingerprint actually blocks the light and heat and causes the glass to get super hot at that one point, which eventually will crack and fail. Bare halogen bulbs should never be handled without gloves.
"Electronic tubes, even those with very hot envelopes like an EL34 or 6BQ5 do not get nearly as hot on the glass as a quartz lamp. It is still a good idea to keep these tubes clean, as dirt and fingerprints can get "baked on"
and become very difficult to clean. Also, flammable material should be kept away, as the glass could become hot enough to melt plastic or cause a fire.
"Anyone who has experienced a 'hot spot' on a power tube is more likely seeing the result of incorrect bias on the tubes, and the result is thermal runaway. The plates become super hot as the incorrect bias causes them to
draw huge amounts of plate current. They begin to glow red hot on the sides, and if a fuse does not blow, the tube will actually start to soften the glass nearest the hot spot on the plate. I have seen some of these tubes that suffered this fate, and the glass actually had a huge bulge on the side near the plate that had gone red-hot."
So the fingerprint thing is, according to Brent, mostly a cosmetic issue and not a premature failure issue.
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Hi wilsynet,
Thanks for sharing this information.
I agree with Brent - the tubes in the Isabella do not even come close to running hot enough to need to worry about "hot spots."
I am more concerned with making sure the pins are carefully inserted into the sockets, and that the tube pins are straight, clean and free of oxidation. Carefully rubbing the tube pins on steel wool and then cleaning them with electrical contact cleaner is a good thing to
do with old NOS tubes that have pins that are not clean and shiny.
Best regards,
Vinnie
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Hi wilsynet,
Thanks for sharing this information.
I agree with Brent - the tubes in the Isabella do not even come close to running hot enough to need to worry about "hot spots."
I am more concerned with making sure the pins are carefully inserted into the sockets, and that the tube pins are straight, clean and free of oxidation. Carefully rubbing the tube pins on steel wool and then cleaning them with electrical contact cleaner is a good thing to
do with old NOS tubes that have pins that are not clean and shiny.
Best regards,
Vinnie
I played around with a couple rubber-ring tube dampeners. While I did not go to out of my way to 'touch' the tubes, my last round of testing was to place the rings high on the tubes, then 'gently' roll then off to see if the sound was better or worse. As far I tell, the tubes are cool enough you could probably touch them bare handed (not that this is recommended).
BTW: After much experimentation with brass weights, myrtle wood block isolation bases, granite bases, rubber tube rings, etc., right now I'm running my system with NOS Amperex tubes from Steve at Northlake, and both the Isabella and Sig 30.2 amp are isolated by 3" Timberland Maple bases spiked directly to the subfloor in a carpeted room. So far this is the best I've found for tone, detail, etc. Kent
Kent
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and both the Isabella and Sig 30.2 amp are isolated by 3" Timberland Maple bases spiked directly to the subfloor in a carpeted room. So far this is the best I've found for tone, detail, etc. Kent
Hi Kent,
If you get the chance, can you start a new thread in the RWA forum about these Timberland Maple bases (with some pics if possible, and links). I'm curious to learn more and I'm sure there are others here who are as well. :wink:
There are many times when I am changing equipment around for testing, evaluation, etc. and it is easier to just keep things on the floor when doing this (instead of trying to moving equipment in and out of a rack), so a good quality base sounds attractive for this!
Thanks!
Vinnie
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I had a conversation this week with Vinnie about Isabella tubes and I'll pass on some info about the basics.
He says the measurement of tubes is not entirely straightforward. Different testing machines, tubes measured under different conditions and other uncontrollable factors can give different readings for the same tube.
Most tubes I've seen online give two kinds of measurements (like 17.0/16.5 or 640/720). Since the Isabella doesn't use balanced outputs you can simply add the two numbers for each tube and compare them. A variance of 5% or less is a good match.
I read that CCa tubes have a tendency to become microphonic and sure enough after 2 weeks of using an expensive set, one developed a hum; I was fortunate the seller was willing to replace them.
Most of these tubes are rated for 8-10,000 hrs. Vinnie says the Isabella is especially gentle on tubes, so you can expect your tubes might last longer than rated. Be careful when rolling tubes to make sure the pins are lined up well and not to press too hard, to avoid bending a socket contact. Vinnie will measure tubes for his customers, if you want to send them to him.
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Hi Fork,
Thanks for your post.
Yes - I prefer to measure the tubes and match them inside the Isabella by testing them on the bench here. For example, feeding a 1Vrms input, at full volume I expect 1Vrms output at the low gain setting (0dB) and 4Vrms output for the high gain setting (12dB). If the tubes are matched within a dB, that is very good!
This way, they are being tested under the conditions set by the Isabella (not some tube tester) and I know for sure how the tubes are behaving in this circuit.
All the best,
Vinnie
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Hi all,
it's about time to try different tubes in Isabella. The following are coming (I hope before X-mas) aa:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=24694)
'64 is the year..I'll post my impressions as soon as I can.
jouni
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Hi Eadron,
Thanks for keeping us posted. I recently acquired quite a few different tubes to try as well - looking forward to getting some free time to try them all out and post impressions!
Happy Holidays!
Vinnie
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Anyone ever try tube dampers in an Isabella? If so, which dampers with what specific tubes? And was there any noticeable effect?
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Anyone ever try tube dampers in an Isabella? If so, which dampers with what specific tubes? And was there any noticeable effect?
It's a tight fit to put them on the tubes of the Isabella. I listened to a few (forgot the brands) and did not hear much effect.
BTW, this thread about tube rolling will be seeing more action in the near future :eyebrows:
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Anyone ever try tube dampers in an Isabella? If so, which dampers with what specific tubes? And was there any noticeable effect?
I use the Herbie's Tube Dampers. Yes, they are a very tight fit, but they work. The difference isn't night and day, but they tighten up the image a bit. I wouldn't even necessarily say they make things sound better, but definitely different, and I almost always have them "on." I suppose you loose some of the "air"(?) in exchange for more "focus."
On another note, I recently tried some new tubes that some of you out there may want to give a shot. I got them from cryoset.com (cryogenically treated) for about $80. They're the New Sensor Genalex Gold Lion E88CC's.
I've spent more money than I'd like to admit chasing after various NOS offerings. There is definitely a "magical" quality to their sound, and I understand why people pay top dollar for them. Unfortunately, they're half a decade old, and no pair I ever used really could offer the detail of the MUCH lower priced tubes that come stock with the Isabellla. I'm not saying none exist, but good luck finding them anymore. I finally switched back to the stock pair over a year ago and hadn't looked back. Recently, I found out about these new issue tubes that are made in Russia, supposedly on some of the old machines that made some of the golden oldies of yesteryear. The pins are gold and actually look like it. The sound IMHO is easily worth the asking price and then some. They even seem to have more gain than any tube I've used before. If the treasure hunt for golden era tubes gives you pleasure, ignore this. If you wanna just get some exceptional tubes so you can listen to your bad ass Red Wine rig, I very highly recommend the New Sensor Genalex (cryogenically treated from cryoset.com are still cheaper than off the company's website due to early dealer pricing).
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Thanks for your research and the tip... little in the way of downside risk at that price so order made...
If the treasure hunt for golden era tubes gives you pleasure
This is not me at all...
If you wanna just get some exceptional tubes so you can listen to your bad ass Red Wine rig,
Yep, that's me! :dance:
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kitten,
Please let us know what you think about the Genalex tubes...
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The Isabella/DAC is the first piece of tube gear I've owned and I haven't used anything other than the stock JJ tubes before now. Based Texendo's recommendation, I ordered a pair of the Gold Lion E88CC/6922s from Cryoset. They arrived today and I wanted to post my impressions after the first hour of listening.
The Gold Lions have got to be the best "bang for the buck" going. For less than $100 I've got more detail, fatter bass, more separation around instruments and a more three dimensional presentation. All this translates into smoother, more realistic sound. Lyrics are easier to understand, acoustic guitars sound more like individual strings being strummed and plucked, drums sound fuller. It's an impressive upgrade.
So...a shout out to Texendo, thanks for posting about these (and thanks again for the Divas).
Best Regards,
Dan in Ottawa.
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Hey Dan in Ottawa, I'm glad to hear it wasn't just me : ) It's good to hear the Divas found a good home too...
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If you wanna just get some exceptional tubes so you can listen to your bad ass Red Wine rig, I very highly recommend the New Sensor Genalex (cryogenically treated from cryoset.com are still cheaper than off the company's website due to early dealer pricing).
Hi Texendo and Dan,
Thanks for posting your feedback on these - I want to order a pair today. But why can't I find them on their webpage? Any direct link to these tubes? Thanks
Cheers!
Vinnie
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Wow, they are indeed gone. Guess someone else liked them too. I sent him an email to ask if more will be available. You can probably still get them from the factory direct, but they're not cryo'd and they're twice the price now.
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I ordered from them as well Vinnie and went back to the site just now to post a link for you but you're right they seem to have disappeared? :scratch:
Very nice tubes, they're a different flavor definitely. Not sure I'd declare them winners over the stock tubes in all areas just yet -- for that I plan to swap back to the JJs in several weeks time and see how going back sounds, but right now I am happily listening to music and everything sounds superb.
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I noticed they disappeared from the Cryoset website a week or two ago, figured they were out of stock.
I just checked again (August 11 at 10:30 EDT) and they are relisted.
Here's the link:
http://www.cryoset.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=303&osCsid=b490a86285f3456293789b4ffa8fac3c (http://www.cryoset.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=303&osCsid=b490a86285f3456293789b4ffa8fac3c)
Dan.
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Thanks, Dan! - just ordered a set :guitar:
Also have a pair of Cyroset 6N23P-EV's coming as well, for comparison.... :thumb:
Guys, thanks for continuing to post your impressions. I'll be doing the same soon enough...
All the best,
Vinnie
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My first excursion into tube rolling. Today I took delivery of a set of Miniwatt Dario 7308's, plugged 'em into my Isabella/DAC. I also have a standard pair of 70.2's driving Zu Definition 2 speakers.
I admit I was a little skeptical that new tubes would make much difference, but I am blown away. From the very first track, it is a night and day difference over the stock JJ tubes. Far better bass response, much more "alive" mid-range, the sound just leaps out and fills the room very satisfyingly. All parts of the spectrum (that my ears can hear) are represented clearly, cleanly, fully, deeply.
Fortunately I got an extra pair of these, waiting in the wings for my LFP upgrade for the 70.2's. I can't wait!
Thank you Red Wine.
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As everybody tells me that the Isabellina reacts similarly to different tubes as the Isabella, my input here :D Ater about 150 hours of burn-in, changed the stock JJ for a 1959 Valvo CCa - absolutely incredible. Bigger stage, clearer, brighter, more bass, better definition... improvement in every aspect :green: If those tubes wouldn't cost an arm and a leg, a definite recommendation...
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As everybody tells me that the Isabellina reacts similarly to different tubes as the Isabella, my input here :D Ater about 150 hours of burn-in, changed the stock JJ for a 1959 Valvo CCa - absolutely incredible. Bigger stage, clearer, brighter, more bass, better definition... improvement in every aspect :green: If those tubes wouldn't cost an arm and a leg, a definite recommendation...
Hi pachku,
Welcome to the RWA forum - and thanks for your post!
I just started an LFP-V Edition tube rolling thread here:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=91642.0
If you can copy/paste your feedback in that thread, that would be great.
Thanks - and happy listening (and rollin')!
Vinnie