[grenamc]

I took a trip to Chicago to listen to some speakers, as this is a Salk thread my impressions of the first three have been left out, but they do get referenced.  The Avalon Acoustics Indra, Dynaudio Sapphire and Magico V3.  For anyone that wants to read those impressions, you can find them http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14895914#post14895914 and http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14897777#post14897777.

Salk HT3
AVA Transcendance 8, AVA Ultra DAC, AVA FET Valve 550, Sony Blu as Transport


So, my intention on this trip was to listen to some speakers that will sell used for somewhat more than the Salks retail for.  Namely Revel StudioII, KEF Ref 205/2, ProAc D38, perhaps even Paradigm S8v.2.  I utterly failed in this regard.  The cheapest speaker I listened to Friday is selling for 13000 on A'Gon, with the Avalon Indra and Magico V3 nowhere to be found, but likely in the same ballpark since neither are limited production even though more expensive.  So, maybe I set up the HT3 for failure.  Maybe I didn't want to like it and I filled my head with sound from such expensive speakers to keep myself in the Monitor Audio GS60s for a little while longer.  Or maybe I was offered a chance to listen to some speakers that cost as much as my Benz on gear that made the system quite a bit costlier.  I thought on this while I waited to get on the highway.  An hour later I arrived at the home of the hugely hospitable owner of the aforementioned and pictured system.

DISCLAIMER - Before replying with hate mail read all of this.  This audition was a long one and both myself and my host went on a bit of a journey.

We started off with some Diana Krall on DVD.  I am not at all familiar with Ms K, but this was a nice piece that showcased her non-singing talent.  Decent arrangement, good band and excellent recording.  We talked a bit while Abbey Rd sat in the transport waiting to be played.  Marty (my host) mentioned it was one of his favorites and how he wished it sounded as good as it could....  Uh Oh.

I played it, as this disc has to work.  If Abbey Rd doesn't work through a system I might as well walk away.  Instead of just letting the disc flow, I basically went straight to "You Never Give Me Your Money" since I had noted harshness in Paul's voice (intended harshness that can get painful) on multiple speakers, including the Dynaudio Sapphires and Monitor Audio PL300.  I think this song should be a bit edgy, but this was painful territory.  I paused, turned and asked if that edginess was common.  I was told, nope.  Now, I was sad.  We play a little while longer, getting a bit into the Medley and it became time for Chinese.  While we break from speaker-talk, I want everyone to know that Martyo is an excellent host and lover of his Salk/AVA gear as he well should be.

Needless to say, during dinner I was berating myself internally for spoiling my ears with Magicos and Indras.  I mean, when Sapphire Dynaudios are outclassed, how can't a monitor retailing for 1/3 their price also be completely outclassed?

Back from dinner we listened to an array of music, most of it wonderfully rendered.  No magic tricks for the Kinks, but I didn't expect it either as these are not warm or laid back speakers.  Neutrality in spades, with possibly a touch of edginess in the mids.  Enormously similar to my take on the PL300, from reviewing my impressions.  Some point shortly after dinner, Marty made a comment about toeing in and its effect on the soundstage.  Added depth at the sacrifice of some width seemed a respectable trade as I found these to have a somewhat forward presentation.  Not as far as the Dyn's but closer to stage than I had fallen for with the Magico and Indra.  For perspective, the Indra and V3 put you about 20th row, the Dyns 4th row, and the HT3 were somewhere in the middle.

Toe-in is something I really would not have expected to change much.  Change it did though.  Suddenly I had depth for yards beyond the speaker plane, and it really seemed like there was a LOT more bass without sacrificing detail and the mids seemed more in-line with what I wanted.  This was further unexpected.  I made almost no notes during any of this listening because I was just loving it so much, but I remember getting chills regularly, particularly on Tom Waits' "Take it with Me" from "Mule Variations".  If you know Waits you know his voice is utterly unique.  Suddenly on a pair of speakers I could afford now instead of in 10 years, I was hearing all the density and nuance of this man's wonderfully evocative voice.  I was impressed.  Same thing with Jeff Buckley on "Last Goodbye" off of "Grace".  So, at some point I thought I should look into the female voice.  I started the women off with Madeline Peyroux (thanks Mark!) and her nearly perfect performance of Elliot Smith's "Between the Bars".  She has a very Lady Day quality and it was reproduced to maximum effect through the HT3.  Aimee Mann and Cesaria Evora, who are polar opposites vocally were also both mesmerizing.  Score 1 for Salk on Vocal tracks.  Score one for affordable listening.  Score one for Tom Waits through Salk and AVA.

The Neil Young at Massey Hall CD made another spin, with a couple new tracks to listen to.  The Salks did not quite have that perfect sense of space I got with the Magico V3, but his voice and guitar were rendered without excess or recess, sounding really excellent. Jazz was brilliant here as well.  Not quite up to the Dyn's probably, though I would have to have both in the same room on the same gear to actually make that call.  "Festival Junction" was great, solos were great, everything was great.  The Mingus was again full bodied and wonderful, tugging at my brass heartstrings.  Speaking of brass, "Dr Feelgood" was very close to sounding like I remembered on the Indra from the brass standpoint, which is a big kudos to the Crossover.  The brass sounded like a small group of players rather than a speaker.  Twice in one day.  I moved on to Nick Drake's "From the Morning" and immediately noticed how intimate these speakers can get.  This is off "Pink Moon" and was recorded by Drake in a friend's personal studio shortly before his suicide.  If you know the track I think it is quite poignant.  The Salk/AVA system brilliantly captured the intimacy of a basement recording.  The soundstage was appropriately smaller than on previous tracks.  I moved from that back into brass territory with "Life in a Glass House" by Radiohead.  I have always described this as a New Orleans funeral dirge and I think that is probably a common desciptor.  Soundstage immediately opened back up and had all the depth you could ask for with layers of texture and some beautiful brass and clarinet to top it off.  Impressive that a system in this price range is so able.  I was finding less to be concerned about, and more to be excited about.  It never gave the kick to the chest bass that I like, but everything else was nearly as good as I could ask for.  We moved back to Abbey Road and the midrange was still a little hot, but FAR more under control than before.  This second appearance of Abbey sounded like I think it should on "You Never Give me Your Money".  Paul's voice had bite to it without feeling like he was biting my brain.

I will say that these have to be about the best new speakers you can buy at their price.  I would further posit that not many speakers that sell used for what you can get these for new would be a significant improvement.  I have not heard any 10-12K loudspeaker so far that produces a better soundstage that also seems to recreate the recorded environment, which for the record, is my personal idea of what "air" means.  The recreating of the air space a recording took place in, be it a garage or concert hall.  Studio recordings can do all kinds of cool things through good speakers that can pull this trick off.   Radiohead was decidedly big and expansive on the Glass House and on "Nude" whereas I found "Last Goodbye" to be slightly less surround-sounding.  And the Salk HT3 ROCKED OUT on Cheb I Sabbah!

Berlioz's "Symphonie Fantastique, Mvmt IV - March to the Scaffold" was the classical that came along for these auditions. I think this piece has some nice moments in it with some wonderfully bombastic instant dynamics. I was really impressed with how well the HT3 and AVA setup dealt with the instant demands put on it by this piece. I never once thought it sounded like it couldn't deal with a bit more volume had I wanted any more.  This is a hugely dynamic system, moreso than several others far more expensive have been. 


Anyway, that is all for now.
-Michael

[grenamc]

This might as well be adding something...

BIG thanks to MARTYO for being an excellent host and allowing me so much time with his Salk HT3/AVA system!

-Michael

[funkmonkey]

   You are everywhere today Michael.  Great review buddy, nice to read a less than glowing review every once in a while.  Next time you hear them, try not to spend 2 hours listening to speakers that cost 3-5X as much right before your session.

Cheers,
Greg

[AliG]

grenamc,
   Great write up! Searching for that 'perfect' pair of speakers can be extremely time consuming and frustrating. I have been through this painful journey and what I have learned can be summarized as follow:

(1) If you're completely starting from scratch, then you should decide on the speaker first, and then take time to find the electronics that synergize with the speakers.

(2) When auditioning speakers, it is very important to keep in mind that what you heard is the total system sound. And if you're not familiar with any of the equipments (from CD players, cables to speakers to room), then it's very difficult to judge how good each of these pieces is in the system.

(3) Assuming you're sticking with the same speakers, attributes like 'soundstage, imaging, forwardness and etc...etc.." can be easily altered by changing any other component(s) in the system.


(4) There are many ways to achieve the objective of "audio nirvana".  Over the years I have found many different systems (different speakers, different amps..etc) that sound 'heavenly' to my ears and I can easily live with any of them.

(5) When embark on the journey to "audio nirvana", as you're trying to figure out what changes is needed to take your system to the next level, you need to be able to determine the 'weakest link' in your system. It will save you a lot of time, for example, if you know for sure that one (or two) piece of your equipments will remain in your system forever until you have exhausted all other means.

(6) Therefore when buying your first piece,  it will be smart if you can decide on a piece that is going to be the 'strongest link' in your system. Next question to ask: Does Salk HT3, at $5000 a pair, fulfill this criteria? The answer is, of course, it depends on your budget for the total system. If you can afford a million dollar system, then sure, you will find plenty of weakness in the Salk HT3. But if your total system budget is in the range of $20k to $50k, then my experience told me that the HT3 will serve you very very well. How do I know? I have friends who are either dealers or owners of big high end electronics power houses - BAT, Krell, Audio Research, Conrad Johnson, Mcintosh, Cary Audio - and over the years I have tried to drive the Salk HT3 with electronics/cables costing more than $70k in total - and the Salk HT3 has yet to make me feel that it is the weakest link.

(7)The HT3 is a 'high resolution' speakers, it is very accurate and truthfull to the source, it lets you hear the source rather than the speakers. Some expensive speakers that I am familiar with, like Sonus Faber Elipsa, JM-Lab NOVA Utopia, have tweeters that 'roll-off' the high frequency, and they tend to make me feel that the speakers are 'limiting' the signals from the source(s). After getting used to the the Salk HT3, these Sonus Faber and JM-Lab speakers can never give me the intimate feeling that I am sitting close to the performer(s). Although depending on the types of music, I will sometimes prefer the NOVA or Elipsa over the HT3.

(8 ) About a year ago, after visiting the room of Wilson Audio at RMAF07, where a pair of Wilson Sophia was driven by ALL Audio Research Reference series equipments, I came home and borrowed the entire same set of Audio Research gears to hook up in my system, at the end, I didn't find myself 'lusting' for a piar of Sophia.

(7)What I also found was that the Salk HT3, at $5000 a pair, when matched with the right gears, set up properly in a 'well treated room", can handily compete with system that cost 20 times more. Where do I get this figure "20 times' more from? Well.. I attended RMAF many times and listening to systems that cost 20 times more. Apart from the $200k a pair Acapella Triolon Excalibur speakers with the 'plasma (ion) tweeter', I don't feel that my system is 'lacking' in any area. Recently I had a good listening at the Von Schweikert VR9SE room ($90k/pair) powered by impressive VAC gears. I had no doubt that the VR9SE is a more 'capable' speaker, particularly in the bass region, if I have unlimited freedom to optimize the setup of VR9SE, I am sure I can make it sound better than the Salk HT3, but I wouldn't trade the sound of my system with the sound of VR9SE in that big room.

(8)I hope I don't give people the impression that Salk HT3 is the best speakers in the world? No..of course not.  I have a friend who owns a Salk HT1 and for two years he keep telling me that he wouldn't trade the HT1 for that $200k/pair Acapella speakers . Well... I have to respectfully disagree with him. What I can say is, if you have limited budget, and you do not have a BIG room, (and by 'BIG' I meant at least 14ft tall x 25ft long x 20ft wide), you will not find the Salk HT3 to be the 'limiting factor' in your system.

(9) The AVA gears tend to sounds a little too 'lean' and 'edgy' to my ears. My ears are perhaps too sensitive to high-frequency. I cannot stand the HT3 being driven by solid state gears. There are many reasons why the HT3 is far from being the best speaker in the world, one of them - because SIZE DOES MATTER! The HT3 cannot play as "BIG" (and as effortless) as some of the mega big speakers like JM-Lab Grand Utopia, Acapella Triolon, Evolution Acoustic MM3, Marten Design Coltrane, Kharma Grand Exquisite, Wilson Maxx and etc etc...

(10) The bottomline, I doubt, for $5k, you can find another pair of speakers that is as 'versatile' as the HT3. As I mentioned earlier, I have tried driving the HT3 with electronics that cost 8 times more than the speakers and I still haven't found the limit for the HT3 yet. I am pretty convinced, that the weakest link in my system right now is my room. And until I manage to take the room out of the equation (by moving to a bigger room), the HT3 will not be the 'limiting factor' for me.

Of course, YMMV - "the truth about this hobby is that there's absolutely no truth to it!"

(In retrospect, why did I waste my time writing all these craps:duh: well... perhaps I have had too many bottles of Calsberg tonite and it helps when I don't have to work tomorrow )
 

[Rocket]

Hi Ali G,

Of course, YMMV - "the truth about this hobby is that there's absolutely no truth to it!" 

A great write up. 

Regards 

Rocket

[grenamc]

Thanks for the replies so far.  I think the first thing I want to point out is simple - I don't want my review to be seen as negative.  When I was getting ready to leave Marty's I actually said something about contacting Jim today and discussing some of my concerns with him as well as just having a chat.  I was really crestfallen when I listened to Abbey Rd. because I WANTED to love everything that came out of the the HT3 and I can say it was difficult to find an issue so early in.  Yes, I know Abbey is an old recording, and it is arguable the 1987 remaster might be a bit unforgiving of its age, but this is the CD that was a turning point for me.  Had I not gotten it at 14 I would probably not be here now posting in an Audiophile forum.  I would probably not own over 1500 CDs to date that continues to jump by leaps and bounds each year.  So, it had to work and it has to work.

I cannot explain the Toe-in issue and why it affected my perception of the sound quality, but it certainly did make a difference and that difference was big.  Suddenly, I felt like the speakers were less forward, which I think directly contributes to how hot the midrange sounds.  The perceived increase in bass response was likely more of a result of the midrange falling back than it was truly an increase in bass.   It could also be that the speakers and gear were not fully warmed up until the Toe-in, but I have a harder time believing that something so coincidental could happen.  The point of my entire write-up though, is it DID improve and if it hadn't the whole trip to Chicago would have been for naught.  I loved listening to speakers that I might be able to justify some day (like the Magico V3 or Avalon Indra) but it is much more fun to listen to a speaker I can justify owning today.  And as soon as we toed them, the HT3 with AVA gear became a true contender for something I want now, something I can afford now, and something I could be happy with for a long long time. 

That being said, I am still not going to rush into anything.  I do plan to talk to Jim soon about the HT3 and about where I am and where I want to be from a sound standpoint.  I am not going to buy until I am sure, as I made that mistake with my present setup.  I loved the Monitors and just decided there wouldn't or couldn't be anything else in the price range that could compete (hadn't done any looking at HT2s or even read up much on Salk at the time).  I got them home and immediately loved their lower volume reproduction, their reproduction of Jazz, and their ability to be fairly versatile.  On rock and R&B, however, they were edgy.  I could get a headache after only a couple hours of listening to some of my favorite music.  It was around that time, I decided my next purchase was going to take awhile.  I have yet to audition a full complement of speakers that sell used for what the HT3 sell for new, but at this point that is the direction I am going to have to take.  It is a very cool and true thing that I cannot go auditioning in the HT3 price bracket.  I have heard these speakers that are within a 1000 dollars of the HT3:  Dali Helicon 400, PSB Synchrony One, Monitor Audio GS60, B&W 803, B&W 804, Thiel CS2.4 and I don't personally believe a single one of these holds a candle to the HT3.  In the above-HT3 price range I have auditioned the JM-Labs Focal 1027Be (actually almost $8,000), B&W 802D and Monitor Audio PL300, Dynaudio Sapphire, Wilson WATT/Puppy 8, Avalon Indra and Magico V3.  From re-reading my thoughts on the Plats, I think the HT3 and the PL300 would be an interesting pair to stand off from one another, but I can say right now that the Plats have an undeniable hot spot in the upper midrange which I am not sure the HT3s do.  I think the Salks are really close to dead neutral.  But from a detail and live-sounding standpoint I think they are remarkably similar speakers.  The HT3 bass isn't what I recall or what I reported from the PL300, but it is tighter than I remember or reported on the 802D.  When you start going stratospheric, I think the Indra and V3 were the only two better for me than the Salk were, but the Indra is 4x and the V3 5x the price of the HT3.  I All things considered, I think that is a big salute to Jim and Dennis.

On the point of electronics, what I will keep and what will go are very simple to discuss.  Every speaker I am looking at now will require me to move from 5.1 to 2.0 or possibly 2.1.  So, the only piece of gear that will definitely make its way to the new speakers will be my Slim Devices Transporter.  I might have a Modwright "truth" modification done to it between now and then for some tube rolling fun.  I have not made a decision on that just yet.  Beyond this, I will be replacing everything with new (to me) gear.  I am inclined to believe tubes are a real part of my audio gear future, since I think some of my midrange issues could be cured with some tube rolling on my source.  When I listen to well recorded music, I roll with the detailed and accurate tube and when listening to something that needs a little softening I roll out to a warmer and more syrupy tube. 

-Michael

[martyo]

It was a pleasure to have you over Michael.  I really enjoyed the evening.

-Marty

[Big Red Machine]

Thanks for the replies so far. 

On the point of electronics, what I will keep and what will go are very simple to discuss.  Every speaker I am looking at now will require me to move from 5.1 to 2.0 or possibly 2.1.  So, the only piece of gear that will definitely make its way to the new speakers will be my Slim Devices Transporter.  I might have a Modwright "truth" modification done to it between now and then for some tube rolling fun.  I have not made a decision on that just yet.  Beyond this, I will be replacing everything with new (to me) gear.  I am inclined to believe tubes are a real part of my audio gear future, since I think some of my midrange issues could be cured with some tube rolling on my source.  When I listen to well recorded music, I roll with the detailed and accurate tube and when listening to something that needs a little softening I roll out to a warmer and more syrupy tube. 

-Michael

Give consideration to Response Audio's Bella Purity preamp.  12AU7 based and very detailed and "neutral".

[zybar]

Michael,

I highly recommend getting your Transporter modified by Dan.

It is an outstanding piece and will mate very well in ANY system.

George

[DMurphy]

Thanks again for all of your impressions, Michael.  We had an exchange on another board about the toe-in issue, which I'll only touch on briefly here.  I obviously want to try and understand why people are hearing what they're hearing, since I can't improve anything unless I do.  On its face, you would think toeing in would make the sound more forward or brighter, since the on-axis response is stronger in that area than the off-axis.  Bass isn't affected, so that can't be a contributing factor.  I'm still a little perplexed.  I guess maybe it's just that the deeper soundstage you might get with toe-in makes the mids sound less prominent.  Unfortunately, I can't experiment because I only have one HT3.  Just for the record, I did a version of the HT3 with the W18 Nextel (basically fancy paper) instead of the magnesium version which has a moderate reputation for brightness.  I couldn't hear any difference, and we decided not to offer it. 

[ArthurDent]

Michael -

Nice writeup. Fair, and thoughtful, thanks for taking the time. Good luck on your quest. And as AliG notes, effectively, one size does not fit all. It's what works for your ears.

Nice system Marty. 

[carusoracer]

Great thread and some well written thoughts by the Author and Alig.

I'm more setup obsessive than most and believe that I still have yet to find the best position. The better the gear in front of these speakers more and more music seems to flow. In my particular room I preferred quite a bit more toe in but I have a compromised living room setup. Room treatments really make a big difference. Also the single most determining factor in my house is room nodes that can be easily excited due to the proximity of the speakers to the rear walls. I spoke to Jim at Length regarding the distance with the rear port and the amount of air that the TC sounds woofer moves. I think your bass issue would be resolved with placement to your tastes as the owner has his position that he prefers.

With that said good luck in your Audio journey and hope to see you in the Salk forums again.

[Nuance]

Great write-up, Michael.  Hmm...have I said that before?   

Seriously though, it was insightful, fair and balanced.  I, of course, loved it.  Well done!

[grenamc]

  You are everywhere today Michael.  Great review buddy, nice to read a less than glowing review every once in a while.  Next time you hear them, try not to spend 2 hours listening to speakers that cost 3-5X as much right before your session.

Cheers,
Greg

I spent 90 minutes just with the Indras, lol.  But I get your point.  Again, many thanks to Marty for his hospitality.  Credit is also due to Jim, Dennis and Frank for creating some killer gear at prices that don't require you to sell your organs on eBay.

-Michael

[Rocket]

Hi Michael,

I think you are heading in the write direction and as you mentioned there's no point in rushing a decision.  I've done that before and I've regretted it.

Try to get as much exposure as you can and attending mini audiophile get togethers is a great opportunity to do so.

Unfortunately I wasn't lucky like you to audition a pair of ht2's, did prior to purchasing a pair.  I had them shipped to Australia and I was really nervous because I'd blown $4000au on a pair of nuforce s9 speakers last year and I was a little dissatisfied with their performance.

I haven't heard any of the speakers that you auditioned but I can imagine that they are very good quality.

Lucky for me my purchase of the ht2's worked out really well and I have no regrets.

Regards

Rod

[audiotom]

Michael

The Abbey Road cd certainly has some edgy issues. I have the vinyl version - parlophone and it is as smooth and natural on the Salks.  The HT3's are very revealing of source material, upstream components, etc. My initial impressions were that they were just a hair bright but with later upgrades (interconnects - acoustic zen, isolation (SRA VR platforms), power amp- Moscode 401HR) I am in audio euphoria.

I have listened to JMLAB Utopias (20k+) in a top end system and didn't think they revealed anything more than what I was hearing with the HT3's.

You will be rewarded with all the emphasis you place on your components, room acoustics, isolation etc

the Salks are that good