AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Salk Signature Sound => Topic started by: huey driver on 23 Sep 2008, 12:19 pm
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I'm upgrading my home theatre for the first time in about 12 years and after much deliberation decided on buying the Salk SongTower QWT's in Walnut that were listed on the site a couple days ago by Jim. I also asked Jim to build me 2 Song Surround I's and a Songcenter all in the same Walnut veneer. I'm very excited about getting these fantastic speakers but need some help with finding a receiver. I wish money was not an issue but of course it is and I want to keep the price below 1,500$ if possible. I know that many people like the Onkyo and Denon lines and asking people what they prefer is like asking a Nikon guy what he thinks about Canon. I'm really looking more for playing music then home theatre although I will be doing that as well. I don't think that I'm going to be able to get separates due to the lack of money but I really want a receiver that will do justice to the SongTowers. Any advice would be much appreciated. Thanks much.
-Keith
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I looked around at the receiver market a year ago for a friend and found the Dennon's to be the best ones in your price range. If you look on the internet you can find large discounts on Dennon's from Dennon dealers.
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I don't have any brand recommendatons, but it shouldn't be necessary to spend anything like $1500. The SongTowers and center don't require much power at all. So don't waste money on extra watts you may not need, or features you may not use. You want a high quality, medium power unit. I'll let others attach brand names to that description.
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What high quality medium power units do you guys recommend?
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I’ve heard SongTowers driven by as little power as my old 75 wpc Denon HT receiver, an 100 wpc Outlaw stereo receiver, and as much as an external 200 wpc amp. All of those were fine. Other ST owners have been satisfied using lower, and higher, powered amps than those.
You won’t need to spend anything like $1500 for a good medium powered (about 100 wpc) home theater receiver. I’d look at the midprice range ($500 to $700?) of Denon, Onkyo, or Yamaha. They all have good reliability and decent customer service. Various people have reported hearing differences in sound among these brands of receivers, but if you read deeper, these reports rarely agree with each other to the point where there is a discernable trend. I think any of those brands will be good.
Try shopping for good online prices through PriceGrabber http://www.pricegrabber.com/index.php/ut=80e758058f37ddc3 (http://www.pricegrabber.com/index.php/ut=80e758058f37ddc3).
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I work for a small old fashioned hi fi shop, and we sell Yamaha and Denon and Cambridge Audio AV receivers, and of the three I think the Cambridge units sound the best in each of their respective price ranges. Cambridge also makes some wonderful sounding stereo integrated amps if you can live without a tuner.
Just my .02$
Neil
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(*EDIT!*)
Whoops. Didn't realize he was after an HT set-up. My bad. :oops:
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I am using the earlier iteration of this two-channel stereo receiver from Harman/Kardon (mine is the HK 3480), and I couldn't be happier. It's driving my Monitor Audio Studio 6s with plenty of power to spare. And there are a few places that will modify these HKs with what some consider spectacular results.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00198F89A/?tag=electronic000249-20
There doesn't seem to be a lot of talk about HK products (other than speakers). I know from my professional work that they're one of the few companies that rate power on HT equipment with all channels operating. I"m not claiming that's the best way to rate HT amps, but it does produce very conservative numbers that can't be compared directly with most other specs. So I hope people aren't being turned off to HK because they don't think they have enough power. I suspect the opposite is the case.
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Try Outlaw Audio. That's the first place I would look before Harmon Kardon, Onkyo, NAD, Denon, Sony, Kenwood, etc...
These guys built their whole company from selling receivers that did more for the money than the above mentioned competition.
http://www.outlawaudio.com/ (http://www.outlawaudio.com/)
Best,
Anand.
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If HDMI is not important to you the choice should be the Arcam AVR350. It is the best sounding receiver by a pretty wide margin. They can be had for some pretty low prices these days and should be within your budget.
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Do any of the Denon A/V receivers offer their "Pure Direct" mode? This makes music sound especially good by taking all tone controls out of the circuit.
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Imho, the biggest bang and the highest quality for your buck would be Emotiva separates. Go with the UMC-1 pre/pro ($699) and the UPA-7 amp ($649)...this would give you all the power and headroom you need all the way out to a 7.1 and the pre/pro looks to be pretty much bulletproof for years to come with upgradeable software, 4 hdmi, and all the HD lossless. For a blu-ray, if you are interested, I would go with the upcoming Oppo 83.
I was using the HK 7200 and thought the amps were more than adequate to push my system but there was a noticeable upgrade when I went to the separate amp...now using the HK as my pre/pro until the UMC-1s finally hit the market. Btw - am two weeks in to my SongTower RTs and SongSurround build time...great pick up on those walnut SongTowers.
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For $1500 I'd go with used separates purchased from audiogon.com
Check out Rotel and B&K.
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I dunno I would still go with about $700 spent on a spanking new decent receiver. And $800 on a whole lot of other stuff.
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Im so confused!!!! Will I notice an appreciable difference by getting separates? I don't mind spending the money if there will be a noticeable difference but Im so new at this that its kind of overwhelming.
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I'm really looking more for playing music then home theatre although I will be doing that as well.
For pure music listening enjoyment I have always had better sound with separates, I would characterize the sound as smoother. For me, if I continue listening to music after the initial infatuation period has worn off, then the equipment is a keeper. With receivers, I would slowly listen to music less and less.
Receivers will do killer home theater though.
Are you going with a Blu-ray player or stick with DVD's for a while? Is is just you using the home theater or the whole family? Once the functions are defined, then your choices can be narrowed down.
Wayne
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Wayne,
I have a blu ray player that I intended using. Really I will be using the system for music mostly but will want some home theater capabilities to it. I like the idea of separates but there are so many companies out there that it gets confusing.
-Keith
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The Emotiva has been getting some rave reviews. Listen if you can.
Of the others, I'd recommend:
NAD
Outlaw
Pioneer ELITE series
The amp sections in these, IMO, are much gutsier and closer to actual ratings with some real headroom in them than the Denon, Yamaha, etc. If you can afford the Arcam, that would definitely be worth a listen also.
The amp section may not be as big a deal with the ST's as I understand they're a pretty benign load to drive. I just know on some tougher loads, there was a definite distinction in performance.
One other option that some of my customers opt for - get a small reciever with the features that you want and then get an external amplifier. Gives lots of guts now and you can easily replace the less expensive receiver in a couple years when a new standard for processing, connectors, etc. comes out without having to respend on the big amp.
Bryan
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The Emotiva has been getting some rave reviews. Listen if you can.
Bryan
I second the recommendations on the Emotiva stuff. I recently purchased a B-stock Emotiva MMC-1 and I am very happy with the HT performance. I have been using a Yamaha receiver as a pre-pro after my modified panasonic XR45 receiver died. The MMC-1 is substantially better than the Yamaha receiver as a pre-pro. As a matter of fact, the MMC-1 is better as a surround sound processor than any of the units I have before: Proceed AVP2, Panasonic SA-XR45. However, the 2 ch performance is not quite as good as the proceed or the XR45, the MMC-1 is not as airy and sounds kind of flat.
Depends on what time frame you are looking for, the Emotiva processor may not be possible since their next gen processor is still a couple months away.
Mike
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Im really thinking about buying a 5-channel amp from Emotiva and a Denon or Onkyo receiver. I want the receiver for all the bells and whistles including the video switching, and the amp to give it just a little bit more umph. What do you guys think?
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I want the receiver for all the bells and whistles including the video switching, and the amp to give it just a little bit more umph.
Don't see that anyone has mentioned it, other than how easy they are to drive, but remember your STs are 4 ohm. When your thinking umph be sure to check the receivers/amps rating at that load. Many units only note their watts at an 8 ohm load, which will almost double into the STs. So you will in many cases be getting more umph than you might initially think.
:thumb:
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Well, the minimum impedance is 4 ohms, at 250 Hz, but the maximum is 17 ohms, at 1500 Hz. So I'm not quite sure how all that works out. In any event, an honestly rated 50 watt amp will drive them with ease.
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This is just my opinion based on my experience, but a 2-channel preamp and amp sounds better than a receiver or a receiver and external amp combo. Perhaps you could pick up the receiver first, and if satisfied you can stop (I think this was already recommended). If you still crave something, get yourself an external amp and connect it to the receiver's preouts. If that doesn't quite do the trick, pick up a 2-channel preamp with Home Theater bypass. Then you can have the best of both words (a 2-channel preamp and amp for music listening and the receiver with all the bells and whistles for HT).
Best regards.
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Now the search is on to find a receiver, it never ends!!!!
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Now the search is on to find a receiver, it never ends!!!!
Arcam, Marantz, Onkyo, Denon and Pioneer are the best IMO. If you can afford the Arcam, go with it. It's the best sounding receiver you can get IMO. Otherwise the others are great too.
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I second the suggestion from Nuance on the sonic advantages of a dedicated stereo preamp for music. I recently purchased a Parasound 2100 with by-pass for home theater. It was a factory refreshed unit with a full factory warranty for $400. This pre-amp has dramatically improved the two-channel sound quality over the receiver that I had been using. The digital audio processing in less expensive receivers is great for home theater, but in my experience may compromise two-channel audio performance.
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Wayne,
I have a blu ray player that I intended using. Really I will be using the system for music mostly but will want some home theater capabilities to it. I like the idea of separates but there are so many companies out there that it gets confusing.
-Keith
Sounds like you want an all-in-one solution that will also decode audio from the blu-ray player. But...
One way to save money is to recycle old equipment and use your present amp for the rear channels. If you already have a Dolby digital processor, keep it or pick up a Rotel on Audiogon (http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?homeproc&1226855457&/Rotel-RSP-976). Then get an AVA Insight SL pre-amp and Insight 240/3 amp for the front speakers. A little over budget but not too much. The new system is definitely less elegant than a single box with less switching capabilities but it will have much better 2 channel sound.
All this depends if the blu-ray will output standard Dolby digital and you can live without the latest audio decoding. I always go for the best 2 channel sound first and movie sound second. I use my eyes more than my ears while watching movies anyway.
Wayne
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Now the search is on to find a receiver, it never ends!!!!
Arcam, Marantz, Onkyo, Denon and Pioneer are the best IMO. If you can afford the Arcam, go with it. It's the best sounding receiver you can get IMO. Otherwise the others are great too.
I would add Cambridge Audio and Rotel to that list of upper tier recievers.
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OK, heres what Im thinking and please let me know if you think this will be a bad deal. Im looking at the onkyo PR-SC885P pre/amp which seems to have all the bonuses of the new HT systems but without an build in amplifier. I'm going to pari this with either a 5 channel emotiva or a 2 & 3 channel emotiva. What do you all think? Any comments?
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Since you started this thread looking for a receiver, i'd like to throw in onkyo 875 in the mix. I read someplace that the pre-pro section is the same as the pr-sc885p, plus a decent amp section. You can have this for around $800 on audiogon. Sure looks like a killer deal to me.
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OK, heres what Im thinking and please let me know if you think this will be a bad deal. Im looking at the onkyo PR-SC885P pre/amp which seems to have all the bonuses of the new HT systems but without an build in amplifier. I'm going to pari this with either a 5 channel emotiva or a 2 & 3 channel emotiva. What do you all think? Any comments?
I have no experience with the Onkyo PR-SC885P, but I think that would be a good route. Another option would be the new preamp from Onkyo's sister company (Integra). The 9.8 gets great reviews.
Just out of curiosity, what is the cost of the PR-SC885P? If it still around $1500, there are a bunch of other options in that price range.
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Its about 1300-1500 depending where you get it....unfortunately since its part of the professional onkyo line not that many people sell them.
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Maybe (Probably ?) something wrong with me , but I've rarely if ever found Home theater gear MUSICAL . Very Nice for home theater purposes but not ultimately INVOLVING . So, try not to go overboard on the $$ . Your choice of speakers and room setup (esp. with regards to speaker channel matching and subwoofer integration) are usually much more important.
Spend the extra money on a half decent music only setup (maybe a small tubed integrated amplifier, if your speakers are halfway efficient)
Just my $0.01
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Arcam AVR350 I have one in my theatre setup and they are great
one on audiogon right now, steal
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?homeproc&1230576359&/Arcam-AVR-350-in-Silver
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Now the search is on to find a receiver, it never ends!!!!
Arcam, Marantz, Onkyo, Denon and Pioneer are the best IMO. If you can afford the Arcam, go with it. It's the best sounding receiver you can get IMO. Otherwise the others are great too.
To this list I would add ROTEL and CAMBRIDGE AUDIO recievers or integrated amps. I agree with Nuance about Arcam. A friend has the AVR300 and the AVR 350 has been reported as being even better, but in that price range there are a substantial number of separate unit combos worth considering too.
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Im so confused!!!! Will I notice an appreciable difference by getting separates? I don't mind spending the money if there will be a noticeable difference but Im so new at this that its kind of overwhelming.
I think the benefit of using seperates is you can keep the amp until it dies and update the pre-pro as technology changes. Amp technology has changed so little in the last ten years, maybe even longer than that.... You could even buy a cheaper receiver now that has most of the bells and whistles and add outboard amps later down the road and use the receiver as the pre-pro. If you have space constraints maybe just a receiver would be best, also if you have a wife or girlfriend a receiveer again might be the better option or in some cases not...
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There doesn't seem to be a lot of talk about HK products (other than speakers). I know from my professional work that they're one of the few companies that rate power on HT equipment with all channels operating. I"m not claiming that's the best way to rate HT amps, but it does produce very conservative numbers that can't be compared directly with most other specs. So I hope people aren't being turned off to HK because they don't think they have enough power. I suspect the opposite is the case.
It doesn't hurt that Linkwitz uses an HK receiver as a preamp to drive his SOTA Orions in his vacation home. HK is rock solid in every way. They are truly one of the very few high current designed receivers out there. The boutique receiver brands are more of an exercise in marketing than engineering.
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I personally find the Marantz products to have the best sound. I had the Onkyo 885 processor and sold it to purchase the Marantz AV8003, but once the specs came out on the AV8003 I couldn't justify the $1500 over the SR7002. I use the SR7002 as a processor (run it into Odyssey amps) for my HT since it has HDMI1.3 and all the decoding and it sounded better than the Onkyo. The SR7002 new was only $1K and I find the sound to be great. I actually prefer running my Duet into it than my Duet into a CIA DAC. If it had phono pre I would be even happier, but I will probably go back to a dedicated preamp with HT bypass (Candela just had too much noise).
PS: Once Pete sells his W4S amps I will run the Marantz into those :wink: :)
SC
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This is probably a bit off topic, but I'm wondering if anyone is looking at (or pre-ordering) the Emotiva UMC-1. Spec and price-wise it looks interesting.
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Im so confused!!!! Will I notice an appreciable difference by getting separates? I don't mind spending the money if there will be a noticeable difference but Im so new at this that its kind of overwhelming.
I think the benefit of using seperates is you can keep the amp until it dies and update the pre-pro as technology changes. Amp technology has changed so little in the last ten years, maybe even longer than that.... You could even buy a cheaper receiver now that has most of the bells and whistles and add outboard amps later down the road and use the receiver as the pre-pro. If you have space constraints maybe just a receiver would be best, also if you have a wife or girlfriend a receiveer again might be the better option or in some cases not...
+1 That's what I am doing.
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I have a Yamaha RX-V2700, which is considered to be a fairly decent receiver, but I'm using it as a pre-pro. At the moment, I have three front (4 ohm) speakers powered by Outlaw monoblocks. (The Yamaha's amp section is bypassed.) From my research, it seems a lot of audio/HT people take this approach. That said, I am interested in learning more about the Emotiva UMC-1.