AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Power Conditioning => Topic started by: LejfK on 28 Apr 2011, 02:44 am
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Hi guys. I just finished repairing a receiver which I think was the victim of some power surges. (My parents' plasma went down at around the same time with three fried boards, and they live two blocks away. Also, when my parents went to get a new tv, the sales guy mentioned they were the third folks that week from our neighborhood replacing a downed set). Anyway, I was thinking about getting one of those residential surge protectors that you install at the panel. Any suggestions?
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There are a few options but many of them have MOV's. :nono:
At the point of use is always best IMO so check out www.zerosurge.com
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I bought one of these whole house surge protectors at Home Depot about a year and some change ago. My father is an electrician and he installed it onto my panel.
He has had a similar one on his panel for about a decade, and has yet to lose anything in the house due to a surge.
The actual unit itself was a hundred dollars of so I think. Installation might obviously cost you a good chunk of change, I just lucked out because my father is an electrician.
So far so good. I have my system on a Synergistic Research Power Cell 10SE with no problems for about the same amount of time.
Haven't lost anything yet!
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Holmes on Holmes uses them on his tv show seems if they are good enough for this pro they should be good enough. Or is this just another non approved audio phile thing again,why not stop the surge, spike whatever right at the panel. Mov,s or not
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Keep in mind that surges don't always travel through the panel. A nearby ground strike can electrify your phone and cable lines.
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Having gone through this about a year ago, I was amazed about how much I really didn't know.
I have an whole house suppressor which I bought from our local utility company. So far so good. But when I was going through the process many power people told me that the only bonafide way to protect from lightning itself is with a lightning rod (for airborne stikes) and a properly installed ground rod.
Most of the units we purchase for surge/spike protection are inadequate for a direct or close lightning strike (this is what many people that should know say).
Whole house units don't protect you from telephone and cable installations. Again a properly installed ground rod will help.
I don't know if this helps since there is so much information floating around.
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You know in town here you don't see lightning rods on houses is it just as good to let the trees take the hit?
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It is the same here. That I don't know. But I think if the trees are close, install a ground rod. After all of these years, I am finally negotiating for a ground rod. We have many trees close to the house. How did we survive without proper protection? :roll:
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Same here and last year living next to woods and ravine we had strikes that were close and the thunder level was mind numbing.
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Please define "MOV" and the context.
We built 6 years ago and had a whole house surge protector installed at the time with taller tress about 60 feet away. We also have underground phone and power (with our own transformer) plus satellite TV. No issues, no problems.
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Please define "MOV" and the context.
MOV=Metal oxide varistor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varistor
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MOV (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_oxide_varistor) is destructive in that it deteriorates the more you use it.
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I do have a bit of experience with the whole house protection products. They do a very good job for what they were designed to do which is to take a severe surge (say 6000V) and knock it down to a managable level (around 600V) thus allowing your major appliances to continue to work and incur little or no damage. 600V will damage your sensitive electronics for sure so you will still need individual power conditioning at the rack. They do not condition the power in your home as much as protect for the catastrophic surge. Still, I still think these products are worthwile. Especially for cost. But they likely would not have saved your parents plasma. At least not for long if you have power issues as I do here in the midwest.
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Will the zerosurge protect you? Or just in some cases? I live in the midwest and am always in fear of what could happen.
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SCP2,
Yes, but again only to a certain extent. I was blowing starting caps in my A/C condenser way too often at a couple hundred per trip. The whole house surge products would stop something like that and would take a great deal off of a large surge. But it will not completely protect every component in your house. That's why I suggested that you still have power conditioning at the rack. These will handle the smaller surges and may make up for the dips in power depending on what type of conditioning equipment you purchase.
I would be glad to make recommendations in a PM but don't want to step on everyone's favorite products and start a flame war. Some protection is better than none for sure.
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This is a general circle, not indebted to any company. Spill your beans so we can entertain alternatives. 8)
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Personally a big fan of 3. Torus, Furman and Panamax. I listed those in price order not necessarily by preference since each has a particular strong point. The big Torus models filter very nicely but are pricey for sure. Furman has some very nice stuff and is almost bullet-proof but still a little rich. Panamax has incorporated a lot of Furman's technology since buying them and come in at a better price point. They also offer individual solutions for outlets where you don't want to hook up a big conditioner but need protection and some filtering. Tripp-lite is good too but not really concerned with "audio" quality.
I'm sure there are any number of products out there that do the job properly but either I have no experience with them or they are just priced out of my ballpark to have invested time in research.
Sorry Monster fans...my momma said "If you don't have anything nice to say..."
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Environmental Potentials is a good way to go. I have an EP2050 and EP 2750 Ground Filter on the pannel box with a EP2450 on my gear and living room HT system.
EP products are a little pricey, but well worth it.
No surge problems here. :D
http://ep2000.com/index.php?page=industrial
http://ep2000.com/uploads/EP_Ground%20Filter.pdf
Chris
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Those Environmental Potentials products look interesting, but where can you buy them?
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I got mine directly from EP. Call Doug Joseph and he will either sell you something or send you on to a dealer.
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So is anyone aware of a whole house surge protection option that occupies the middle ground between the inexpensive MOV based units (Example: ~ $100 Eaton) that usually install directly into your mains panel, and the big - very expensive - wall mounted toroid based solutions (Example: >$5000 Torus Power)? Of course, I only care about this middle ground if it actually buys me an additional improvement over the MOVs! :)
Based on a quick scan of website reviews, the Environmental Potentials products appear to be somewhere in the $500-1000 range, though I couldn't find current pricing anywhere, and I note that they do contain a sacrificial MOV.
Note that I don't really know enough about whole house level surge suppression and filtering to have a pathological aversion to MOVs yet. From what I've read, they tend to provide the fastest voltage clamping option available and may not be a problem when installed a significant distance upstream of your system, such as you'd likely find when installed at your mains panel. It also seems that the MOVs avoid mucking significantly with the inductance of your system, but at the cost of mucking with the capacitance.
Thanks!
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Anyone home? ;)
For what it's worth, the couple electricians I've had by to give me a quote on a possible dedicated line all agreed that the whole house surge protectors were worth having, but expressed no preference for the model other that to match the model to the panel (same manufacturer) so as to ensure a fit.
Thanks!
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A nearby lightening strike fried a lot of my electronics several years ago--even with MOV-type surge protectors on the equipment. Even so I later installed a whole-house MOV protector at the main panel and continued to use individual protectors where it seemed prudent.
I've read that fluctuations in "normal" grid power are more of a concern than stray voltage from lightening. MOVs seem to handle those issues pretty well (at least until they quit working).
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I have a whole surge protector but I still believe that point of use is best. www.zerosurge.com is pretty hard to beat IMO and are NOT MOV's.
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Avoid MOV's
You could use something like this at your panel http://www.surgex.com/pdf/XN120-LR.pdf
or one of these at your equipment location http://www.surgex.com/pdf/XR115-LR.pdf
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How much?
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I have a BPT for my audio system, so I'm not looking for sub-panel level protection.
My interest is in whole-house surge protection at the mains panel for the sake of everything else in the house. Even dishwashers have electronics modules in them that are disproportionally expensive these days, much less the more commonly considered consumer electronics. (Though the SurgeX solution looks interesting if I were looking for sub-panel level protection.)
And yes, I realize that everyone says to avoid MOVs, but I'm not seeing many alternative whole-house options until you get up to the very expensive balanced power toroid based solutions. Thus my question about what alternatives I might be missing...
(And again, I've had some feedback from electricians that MOVs at the mains panel aren't the detriment that they are immediately in front of the components themselves. Certainly they'd be upstream of my BPT and any other point-of-application conditioners I might have.)
Thanks!
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Check with your utility company. They usually have whole house surge protectors on their web sites. These are often better than most of the after market brands.
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Hi guys. I just finished repairing a receiver which I think was the victim of some power surges. (My parents' plasma went down at around the same time with three fried boards, and they live two blocks away. Also, when my parents went to get a new tv, the sales guy mentioned they were the third folks that week from our neighborhood replacing a downed set). Anyway, I was thinking about getting one of those residential surge protectors that you install at the panel. Any suggestions?
It was a case of the shoemaker's children going with holes in their shoes. My house was nearly hit by lightning about 4 years ago. It damaged an expensive TV set, my well pump, my phones. I'm lucky it wasn't even worse. Fortunately my homeowner's insurance covered some of it.
I bought 2 intermatic whole house surge protectors at Home Depot for $27 each (I have 2 panels.) It took me about 5 minutes each to install. You also need a 2 pole 20 amp circuit breaker for your panel type. Don't try it yourself if you are not familiar with house wiring, you could get badly injured and damage your electrical system. I also bought a lightning protector for my phones from Parts Express. The only drawback to it is if you don't have a telephone punchdown tool (I don't.) you'll either need to borrow one or install the bare telephone wires by imrpovising one. I used a couple of screwdrivers to push down on both sides of the wire at each terminal. Although my phones were clearly damaged by a sharp voltage spike on AT&T's network (actually between Verizon's central office and my house) they would not pay for the damage. Eventually I dumped them for better service at a much lower cost from my cable company.
BTW, the technical name for these protectors is TVSS which stands for transient voltage surge supressor.
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OK, could someone give details as to why so many negative remarks regarding MOV's? Why are they so detrimental?
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OK, could someone give details as to why so many negative remarks regarding MOV's? Why are they so detrimental?
MOV surge protectors are the best low cost option for protecting electrical and electronic equipment and systems from very brief overvoltage induced damage. Watch out for the weasel word advertising, most of the expensive products are nothing more than cheap products with fancy packaging and claims that are either misleading or downright incorrect.
A MOV (metal oxide varistor) is a device that is out of the circult until the voltage climbs above a certain level, hopefully 176 volts, the peak of a 120 volt RMS common receptacle (in the USA.) Above that voltage it "breaks down" and forms a conductive shunt preventing overvoltate from reaching your equipment. When the voltage drops below its "break threshold" 176 volts it becomes non conductive again.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varistor
Fancy expensive devices targeted at audiophiles concerned about their equipment may have additional features which are unnecessary, of little or no benefit, or their components or equivalent can be bought cheaply otherwise. The first thing the power supply in every electroncs device you own (except a some turntables) is provide filtered DC power. The capacitor in the power supply should filter all RF noise and other spurious occasional power anomolies. Chances are if the equipment doesn't do that itself, no external filter will either.
Be careful of any equipment that does not tell you exactly what it does and how it does it in specific detail. It should give you at least a block diagram and hopefully a schematic. Also be wary of any equipment that is not UL listed. True power protection for audio or other sensitive electronic equipment only comes from a high quality double static conversion UPS. The type used for home PCs such as the one I use is called a line interactive UPS will create up to 40% harmonic distortion. A PC isn't affected by that, audio equipment can be. A true double static conversion UPS from a reputable company like Eaton or Liebert for an audio system will cost over $600 to over $1000 even for small units.
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I agree with three posts here. 1. Use the Environmental Potentials at the breaker panel. 2. Have another surge protection devise close to the equipment. 3. Avoid MOVs.
MOVs work better as the voltage increases. So for lower voltage surges, some of the surge gets through. This happens unless you have a sophisticated, industrial devise with MOVs.
One product I use close to my equipment is the Russ Andrews Mega Clamp. Russ Andrews Accessories Ltd. has similar products, at lower and higher prices.
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I agree with three posts here. 1. Use the Environmental Potentials at the breaker panel. 2. Have another surge protection devise close to the equipment. 3. Avoid MOVs.
MOVs work better as the voltage increases. So for lower voltage surges, some of the surge gets through. This happens unless you have a sophisticated, industrial devise with MOVs.
One product I use close to my equipment is the Russ Andrews Mega Clamp. Russ Andrews Accessories Ltd. has similar products, at lower and higher prices.
http://www.dms-audio.com/megaclamp-clone
You can see there really isn't much to these and they do use MOVs, in this case 10 of them, plus one small capacitor and a resistor. I don't know what manufacturers charge for them but if it's more than a few dollars you're getting ripped off.
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The first thing the power supply in every electroncs device you own (except a some turntables) is provide filtered DC power. The capacitor in the power supply should filter all RF noise and other spurious occasional power anomolies.
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If wishes were fishes....
Unfortunately, the typical electrolytic capacitor in a power supply doesn't work at > MHz range given inherent ESL (equivalent series inductance) which limits its ability to shunt noise with increasing frequency. For whatever reasons (no doubt economic) the typical toroidal transformer used, without a primary/secondary grounded shield, lets is all sorts of noise through.
Chances are if the equipment doesn't do that itself, no external filter will either.....
:lol: and Felix is laughing too......
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http://www.dms-audio.com/megaclamp-clone
You can see there really isn't much to these and they do use MOVs, in this case 10 of them, plus one small capacitor and a resistor. I don't know what manufacturers charge for them but if it's more than a few dollars you're getting ripped off.
Which product are you talking about ?
Your link does not show the Russ Andrews Mega Clamp, or the Environmental Potentials unit. The article refers to surge protection in general, and provides pictures of another product, unnamed.
I have opened the Russ Andrews Mega Clamp, and there is only one devise on the circuit board. Not ten, as you said. Russ Andrews does make a cheaper unit called the Super Clamp, that does contain MOVs. They also recommend to replace or service the Super Clamp, every two or so years, because the MOVs wear out over time.
The EP 2050 is a different devise altogether. You need to visit their website, and ask questions if any, before you make a statement to Audiophiles, on the value and construction of a particular product. Or products in general. There are no "few dollar" devises that are equivalent or even close to the two I recommended.
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If wishes were fishes....
Unfortunately, the typical electrolytic capacitor in a power supply doesn't work at > MHz range given inherent ESL (equivalent series inductance) which limits its ability to shunt noise with increasing frequency. For whatever reasons (no doubt economic) the typical toroidal transformer used, without a primary/secondary grounded shield, lets is all sorts of noise through.
:lol: and Felix is laughing too......
I'm sorry, but you are talking non-sense. RF filters of all sorts have been made for decades, intended for consumer, commercial, and military applications. Many CD players, DACs, and other audio components, have RF filters right in the chassis. The newest Mark Levinson Player is one example. Another is Northstar, made in Italy. The list is numerous, and spans Pro Audio, as well as consumer audio.
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I'm sorry, but you are talking non-sense. RF filters of all sorts have been made for decades, intended for consumer, commercial, and military applications. Many CD players, DACs, and other audio components, have RF filters right in the chassis. The newest Mark Levinson Player is one example. Another is Northstar, made in Italy. The list is numerous, and spans Pro Audio, as well as consumer audio.
Say what? I quoted and responded to this line specifically -
The first thing the power supply in every electroncs device you own (except a some turntables) is provide filtered DC power. The capacitor in the power supply should filter all RF noise and other spurious occasional power anomolies.
and commented on the non ideal nature of the typical electrolytic ps rail capacitor. Nothing more, nothing less.
Ideally, rf filtering should be incorporated into each component, as the it can be optimized for its specific needs. But again, my comment was a specific response to -
Chances are if the equipment doesn't do that itself, no external filter will either.....
referring to that power supply that all I know is that it has some rail capacitance. If the designer endeavors to enhance the power supply with appropriate filtering, bypass caps, etc.... more power to them.
My apologies, I really try to be quite specific in my posts, with the intent to avoid miss-communication.
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Sorry Occam, after looking back at few posts, Soundminded made some nonfactual statements, and included some similar quotes, which lead to confusion and controversy. This happens often on some topics, and turns things to the worse. I hope we can all get back on the subject of Whole house surge protection.
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If wishes were fishes....
Unfortunately, the typical electrolytic capacitor in a power supply doesn't work at > MHz range given inherent ESL (equivalent series inductance) which limits its ability to shunt noise with increasing frequency. For whatever reasons (no doubt economic) the typical toroidal transformer used, without a primary/secondary grounded shield, lets is all sorts of noise through.
:lol: and Felix is laughing too......
Whether it is true or not that a large electrolytic capacitor will filter RF noise in a power supply (assuming it's actually a problem, most of it is frankly a myth since series inductance in the transformer ahead of the rectifier has an impedance that increases proportionally with frequency and is practically an open circuit at RF frequencies) you can simply solder a low value capacitor across the electrolytic to act as an RF shunt. Say a .047 mfd cap should do the trick. Just be sure its voltage is as high or higher than the electolytic caps is. It should cost less than $1 and will be every bit as effective as the expensive manufactured product in this regard. And buyng expensive film caps for which great claims are made in signal circuits will not produce any better results either. I design and build power distribution networks for among other things the most advanced scientific laboratories and data centers and specify very expensive UPSs and other power protection devices. Those sold to audiophiles are by and large overpriced, oversold, worth far less than is claimed for them, and are one big ripoff.
If you want a real power protection device that will give you the best results, you have to buy a double static conversion UPS from a reputable company like Eaton or Liebert. They will cost over $500, even a thousand dollars or more. The cheaper line interactive type used for PCs work fine for that application but may not be suitable for audio equipment due to high THD, up to 40%. PCs don't care about that.
To find out whether or not the product you are considering is a ripoff, you need to learn what the alternative technologies are, what's in the product you are considering, and what its performance specifications are. Do not be intimidated or impressed with generalizations designed to frighten or overwhelm you. Those are the sales tactics of people who have little to offer of real value but have a very high sticker price. Most are little more than a box with a bunch of receptacles, a few MOVs, a few small capacitors, inductors, and a light show, maybe a switch or two. They aren't worth it. If you are handy with a soldering iron you can build one cheaply enough yourself for very little money. A very expensive one that offers more than the usual run of the mill types but less than a UPS contains a large heavy computer grade isolation transformer. Sometimes those are included with very expensive UPSs.
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Whether it is true or not that a large electrolytic capacitor will filter RF noise in a power supply (assuming it's actually a problem, most of it is frankly a myth since series inductance in the transformer ahead of the rectifier has an impedance that increases proportionally with frequency and is practically an open circuit at RF frequencies) you can simply solder a low value capacitor across the electrolytic to act as an RF shunt. Say a .047 mfd cap should do the trick. Just be sure its voltage is as high or higher than the electolytic caps is. It should cost less than $1 and will be every bit as effective as the expensive manufactured product in this regard. And buyng expensive film caps for which great claims are made in signal circuits will not produce any better results either. I design and build power distribution networks for among other things the most advanced scientific laboratories and data centers and specify very expensive UPSs and other power protection devices. Those sold to audiophiles are by and large overpriced, oversold, worth far less than is claimed for them, and are one big ripoff.
If you want a real power protection device that will give you the best results, you have to buy a double static conversion UPS from a reputable company like Eaton or Liebert. They will cost over $500, even a thousand dollars or more. The cheaper line interactive type used for PCs work fine for that application but may not be suitable for audio equipment due to high THD, up to 40%. PCs don't care about that.
To find out whether or not the product you are considering is a ripoff, you need to learn what the alternative technologies are, what's in the product you are considering, and what its performance specifications are. Do not be intimidated or impressed with generalizations designed to frighten or overwhelm you. Those are the sales tactics of people who have little to offer of real value but have a very high sticker price. Most are little more than a box with a bunch of receptacles, a few MOVs, a few small capacitors, inductors, and a light show, maybe a switch or two. They aren't worth it. If you are handy with a soldering iron you can build one cheaply enough yourself for very little money. A very expensive one that offers more than the usual run of the mill types but less than a UPS contains a large heavy computer grade isolation transformer. Sometimes those are included with very expensive UPSs.
You're right except for the capacitors used in signal. Each type sounds different, but that's another topic.
PLCs range widely in technology used, and the prices for some are (and I agree here also) are a rip-off.
Budget is a consideration. There is a fancy box made in Spain, out of Tankwood, no circuit inside, no surge protection, just their special metal conductors, and selected outlets. It looks great, improves the sound according to those who have tried it, but they want $9000.000 retail for it.
Anybody want to jump on that right now ?
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You're right except for the capacitors used in signal. Each type sounds different, but that's another topic.
PLCs range widely in technology used, and the prices for some are (and I agree here also) are a rip-off.
Budget is a consideration. There is a fancy box made in Spain, out of Tankwood, no circuit inside, no surge protection, just their special metal conductors, and selected outlets. It looks great, improves the sound according to those who have tried it, but they want $9000.000 retail for it.
Anybody want to jump on that right now ?
Here's a source for the real thing industry relies on, not snake oil that targets audiophiles;
http://powerquality.eaton.com/Products-Services/
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Eaton is one of many manufacturers. I don't think the "whole industry" relies on them.
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Here's a source for the real thing industry relies on, not snake oil that targets audiophiles;
http://powerquality.eaton.com/Products-Services/
Are you using their products ? If so which ones ? Any effect on A/V performance that you've noticed ?
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Are you using their products ? If so which ones ? Any effect on A/V performance that you've noticed ?
I use a 5110 for my desktop PC. It's a line interactive type UPS, not a double static conversion type which is about 3X as expensive for the same size. I don't use any special power conditioner for my audio systems but I've got 2 Intermatic surge protectors, one on each of my main circuit breaker panels. They are much cheaper than Square D. I've recently specified several 9355s for some of my employer's clients. These are 30 KVA 26 KW 3 phase industrial types. They're convenient for small labs. I've specified and installed many of these, MGEs (off my list since acquired by APC, still waiting for some good field reports by users) and Liebert, a longstanding favorite. When I need 3 bidders or recommended suppliers I now include Mitsubishi. The largest I ever installed was a 1.6 MVA (1600 KVA) which was for a large corporation's main data center. I've also worked on data centers having many times that capacity. A popular size favorite now is 500 KVA 450 KW often used in multiples in various configurations.
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Thanks for the info. I use a 1KVa Powervar for the computer system which is working well. For some reason, it improves the sound of the Audio system, not plugged into it. I inadvertently found this out before I placed it with the computer. Maybe it smooths the sine wave, or absorbs line noise, or affects power factor? I don't know.
I also have a 2KVa Sola constant voltage transformer, with capability of 240 volts input. Have not hooked it up yet, but some others who have these, really like them for Audio. This one came from a company that was relocating, and was used for their computer systems. The only trouble with these, is they are noisy, so have to be mounted outside, or in a garage.
Transformers only protect what is connected to the secondaries ( the output ). So these are only whole house if the entire house is run from them.
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Thanks for the info. I use a 1KVa Powervar for the computer system which is working well. For some reason, it improves the sound of the Audio system, not plugged into it. I inadvertently found this out before I placed it with the computer. Maybe it smooths the sine wave, or absorbs line noise, or affects power factor? I don't know.
I also have a 2KVa Sola constant voltage transformer, with capability of 240 volts input. Have not hooked it up yet, but some others who have these, really like them for Audio. This one came from a company that was relocating, and was used for their computer systems. The only trouble with these, is they are noisy, so have to be mounted outside, or in a garage.
Transformers only protect what is connected to the secondaries ( the output ). So these are only whole house if the entire house is run from them.
Sola transformers use ferro-resonant technology. Unlike other transformers this technology operates the core in the magnetically saturated region. Changes to the primary voltage don't result in changes to the secondary voltage. We used that a lot before UPSs became widely available. It's very old technology but it works. One word of advice, to regulate the transformer must be loaded to at least 10% of its rated value. If your load is less than that, add more load and it will perform better.