AudioCircle
Other Stuff => Archived Manufacturer Circles => Ellis Audio => Topic started by: David Ellis on 12 Feb 2008, 03:24 pm
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I will address any and all questions regarding the 1801C in this discussion string. I am receiving fair amount of 1801C questions, and prefer to address them herein.
This first post is in response to a couple questions received yesterday. I will post the question in quotes, then my response via clear text.
Thank you. So what would be the difference in cost between the floor stander and stand mounter -- kit and fully assembled?
I haven't yet decided what flavor of cabinet I will build. I will build only 1 "flavor" of cabinet from my workshop. The flavor of cabinet depends on my test with the 1 1/2" roundover. If the cabinet with the 1 1/2" roundover sounds better (imaging??), then This will be the only cabinet I build. If there is no difference in sound quality I will most likely chose to build only the floorstanding version of the speaker. Either way, the cost will likely be about $1k more than the kit-cost for a completed 1801C in a floorstanding version or 1 1/2" roundover version.
Based on historical feedback, it seems like most folks preferred the floorstanding version of the 1801 over the sand mounted version having a 3/4" roundover on the front baffle.
I am sure that Jim Salk http://www.salksound.com/ (http://www.salksound.com/)will continue entertaining those folks having more specific cabinet desires. Jim retired from his job that paid real money $$, and does sublime work in the cabinet shop. Jim will also continue having a much shorter lead time for completed speakers. I simply don't have dedicated time in the workshop. My 3 boys, and very fully-time employment remain a higher priority.
Do you have any preliminary pricing on the 1801 C?
The price of the kit will be within 5% of the general consumer cost of the components. Unfortunately, the C95 jumped in price from $275 to $368 in the past few months . Much of this is due to the declining value of the dollar. I believe that many European drivers should be more expensive, but the US market is trying to hold cost down. This is only possible within reason.
I just had an epiphany this morning. Reduced interest rates are CAUSING the devaluation of the dollar. This is because bank loans actually "create" money. Since there are more dollars in the marketplace, the value of each individual dollar is reduced. The result is the value of the EURO has almost doubled in the past 7 years :oops:.
Will you be looking for any "listeners"?
Not initially, but there will eventually be a pair of 1801C speakers that travels for audition. This is because I believe that I will run-out of C95 drivers relatively fast, and I only have 20 of them. I don't know how many drivers other folks have in the USA, but do know that Accuton has the longest lead-time of any manufacturer - 8-12 months.
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So, on those notes; when is the 1801C going to be available?
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I will be glad to host a 1801C in Seattle. Let me know when the tour model is ready.
Al
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Dave,
Do you have a picture of the 1801C finished? :green:
regards,
Guilherme
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Was this project abandoned?
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I don't have much time this evening, but owe an explanation to the queries above. However, before this, I would like to offer some information regarding WHY the delay has happened :(.
I have suffered with a sore right elbow for 14 years. I learned early last month via an MRI that I had significant scar tissue in my right elbow :) and that microfracture surgery would happen on 1 April. Following this surgery I would have little/no weight bearing use of my right arm for about 6 months. Because of this, my priorities shifted immediately toward the things I really needed to accomplish around the house. I did a bunch of painting and finished some cabinet work (non speaker related). I did this because these are my (my wife's aa ) life priorities and following 5 enduring years of small children these items really did need attention before my surgery on 1 April.
The surgery didn't go as expected. The ortho doc unexpectedly found cartilage and really didn't know what caused the significant scar tissue in my elbow. Nonetheless, he spent a significant time in my elbow and I have a fair amount of stiffness as a result. This morning I had my 2-week follow-up and the doc said that I could return to somewhat normal activities - including using the computer and picking up my 35lb toddler. As such, gently moving a 50lb speaker will be no problem.
I will have some productive time tomorrow morning, and will provide an update tomorrow evening.
Do you have a picture of the 1801C finished?
I do have a pair of speakers that LOOK finished, but I am not sure this will be the chosen cabinet configuration. This cabinet has squared edges. There might be a reason that Kharma uses a large radius roundover.
So, on those notes; when is the 1801C going to be available?
My timeline is not solid. I have many other priorities that often overcome my hobby.
Was this project abandoned?
Nope, but I can easily understand how this could be perceived. I was fully aware that folks were curious, and also fully aware that my life priorities had to be redirected for a period of time. Then... using the keyboard and felt very uncomfortable on my elbow after surgery. This environment has been somewhat frustrating for me too. Nonetheless, I do appreciate being asked these questions.
For the time being, I feel medically liberated. I can return to my life before the surgery for a short period of time. In about 1 month I will likely visit with an elbow specialist. I am guessing that another surgery will be necessary, but am not certain.
Dave
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It's good to hear that your surgery went as well as it did, and here's hoping they find and fix whatever else needs fixing--how about just using the surgeon to get in and out of your elbow and have Jim Salk do the elbow carpentry on the joint? I hear that Dennis Murphy's heart valve replacement surgery went well. You two guys hurry off the disabled list.
I'm about ready to start making sawdust when you're ready to finalize the cabinet plans. Keep your chin up and get well soon, and keep grinding away at the honey-do list.
Regarding your previous posting about interest rates and currency values...reduced interest rates lower the value of the currency in relation to some other currencies by making it less attractive for foreign investors to make investments denominated in U.S. dollars. Yes, due to the fractional reserve banking system, making more loans does increase the money supply, and both have an effect on relative currency values. In 2006 the Federal Reserve System stopped publishing a measure of the money supply called M3, the broadest measure of currency, checking and savings deposits, CDs, money market funds, eurodollars, repurchase agreements and some other large accounts. Skeptics feel that the latest reports of M3 would have shown an intentional greatly increased supply of money that can lead to devalued currency and inflation, but low interest rates. Personal, corporate, and government debt are all through the roof. Devaluing the currency through inflation makes the debt easier to pay off, though. Savers get hurt; borrowers pay back their debt with cheaper dollars.
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In 2006 the Federal Reserve System stopped publishing a measure of the money supply called M3
:evil:
Skeptics feel that the latest reports of M3 would have shown an intentional greatly increased supply of money that can lead to devalued currency and inflation, but low interest rates.
I am one of these skeptics.
Devaluing the currency through inflation makes the debt easier to pay off, though. Savers get hurt; borrowers pay back their debt with cheaper dollars.
:evil:
I am generally a saver.
You conveyed all of this very well. I didn't realize there was a formal declaration of M3, but the lack of this public declaration is bothersome. I am not a conspiracy guy, but have watched the value of the USD plummet recently against the EURO just like the USD plummeted against the German mark in the 1980s.
Until a few years ago I didn't realize that banks could effectively "create" money :duh: :duh:. My wife explain the very simple guidelines. This still doesn't seem right... but it's the banking system that we have.
Anyhoo, on the speaker end of things, my elbow felt okay while puttering in the workshop for a few hours this morning. It was somewhat stiff, but this is expected and tolerable. I have a few days off this week and will be able to make further progress. For now, the only conveyance I have is a photo. The 1801C could come out looking something like this.
(http://www.ellisaudio.com/P1010192.jpg)
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Wow Dave. Those look spectacular for prototypes! :thumb: If you find that these don't meet your expectations due to diffraction effects with the sharp edges and need to get rid of them, give me a call. :lol:
Congratulations on the new speaker and all the best with your recovery.
Take care,
Tom
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Our fractional reserve banking system is not the problem. It does not necessarily lead to lack of control over the money supply. We have had periods of time of stable, low inflation and decent growth of the economy. The problem is with the people that manage the money supply. We certainly are in a recession at this time, and may be entering a period of stagflation...stagnant growth of the economy and related low wages and high unemployment coupled with price inflation. Of course, we now have deflation in housing prices and in some retail goods and lumber, but inflation in the prices of energy, food, imported goods, and many basic materials--steel, copper, cement, etc. Stagflation is one of the most difficult macroeconomic conditions to deal with. Isn't Dennis an economist? He'll have expert thoughts on all this. We used to ski in Canada when 68¢ bought a Canadian dollar. Now a Loonie costs about a buck-two and we ski here. A buck buys about 100 yen or two bucks for a pound Sterling. Buck-fifty-eight for a Euro. The price of crude oil figured in Euros has risen about half as fast as the price figured in USD. We're a low cost country for every one except ourselves.
Those speakers look great.
--Are the stand-mounted speakers and the floor-standing speakers acoustically the same inside, with just an extended box for the floor-standing? Can either configuration be made from the same plans with just longer sides for the floor-stander?
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I truly am interested in continuing the economics discussion, but would like to push this towards Dennis Murphy in the General discussion forum. I will try to ping Dennis later today for his thoughts on the matter. This is a huge issue and there are some great minds posting on this web page.
--Are the stand-mounted speakers and the floor-standing speakers acoustically the same inside, with just an extended box for the floor-standing? Can either configuration be made from the same plans with just longer sides for the floor-stander?
No. The internal cabinet dimensions are not the same. However, the general volume of the cabinets is very similar. 21-25 liters will work and have been tested. Since the T/S parameters of the C95 are similar to the SEAS W18, I thought the previous cabinet volumes and configurations would work well. This has been true. I have a hunch the C95 MIGHT "tolerate" a slightly larger cabinet, but don't plan to test this for a considerable time. For now, I am confident the 1801b stand mounted and floorstanding cabinets will work - but with a few very minor tweaks. There will be more to follow regarding these tweaks.
Dave
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This afternoon I found no significant measurable difference between the 1801C with a 1 1/2" radius roundover on the baffle and the 1801C with a sharp/square cabinet edge.
Dave
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Shoot! So the square edge works. :lol:
I'm happy that you didn't go to all that work only to find out that you preferred the sound of the radius-ed edges.
Take care,
Tom
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Shoot! So the square edge works.
Well... hmmm... there are 2 other possibilities. Yesterday I used an MLS measurement. Today I would like to follow-up with some gated measurements. And, quite often there are audible impacts that are totally unmeasurable using today's equipment.
Probably the best example are different capacitors. Their impact is obvioiusly audible, but not easily measurable.
More to follow...
Dave
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Hi Dave--
Nice to see and read your latest comments (on the OW4??? topic). Your viewpoints are always interesting and worth thinking about.
I was glad to see your comments about Danny Richie. I just finished building a pair of A/V-3s for a friend of mine and am very impressed with their musical sound, fine soundstage and accurate bass. We preferred them over her Paradigm Studio 60v3s. This was my first experience in DIY speakers and I'm hooked. I may have to start on a pair of one of his latest, the Neo 2X, next.
But what I really want to build is a pair of 1801cs aa!
How about an update on your progress with the 1801c? :drool: I'm sure I'm not the only one out here interested in your latest....
----------Mark
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Shoot! So the square edge works.
And, quite often there are audible impacts that are totally unmeasurable using today's equipment.
Probably the best example are different capacitors. Their impact is obvioiusly audible, but not easily measurable.
More to follow...
Dave
You have my admiration for making that statement,,,, there are many more manufacturer's that would say their instruments are the final word. :notworthy: I look forward to seeing your final design, whatever that may be. :thumb:
Cheers,
Robin
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There are several items that I would like to address in this post. I will do this in no specific order:
I was glad to see your comments about Danny Richie. I just finished building a pair of A/V-3s for a friend of mine and am very impressed with their musical sound, fine soundstage and accurate bass. We preferred them over her Paradigm Studio 60v3s. This was my first experience in DIY speakers and I'm hooked.
Well...Hmmm, I wish to convey what is safe and prudent regarding this. You are not the first customer that has conveyed the results of a a comparison between a good DIY speaker and a Paradigm. A few of my customers have conveyed comparison's between Paradigm speakers and the 1801s too. In all situations the results have been as you conveyed.
I will also convey that the propensity of commercial folks spend more on their binding posts than their capacitors. This is simply because most customers believe a substantial binding post correctates to a quality speaker. It is clear from the picture that Danny invests a considerable quantity of money inside the speaker. I convey this because I believe it matters - significantly.
(http://www.gr-research.com/images/kitpic.jpg)
I may have to start on a pair of one of his latest, the Neo 2X, next.
I feel the need for continued commentary. Danny does good work, but I prefer the sound of Danny's dome tweeters over the NEO planar tweeters. I do understand that various tweeters have a "religious" following and wish to convey that these comments are simply MY subjective opinions. While Danny's silk dome tweeters are a standout product ( I use a pair in my 2nd system ), the NEO planar isn't something that I would live with in my home. Yes, they might have appeal for some folks, but not for me.
In my opinion, if you like the sound of the AV3, add some .1uf sonicap Platinum Bypass Capacitors (6). This may seem like overkill, but the end result will remain less expensive than anything commercial at this price. It appears that Danny already uses some flavor of bypass capacitors, but I am fairly certain that Danny will agree that the .1uf Sonicap Platinum is truly the cats-mow. The sound improvement and change when adding the .1uf Platinum capacitors is ALL GOOD.
How about an update on your progress with the 1801c?
Yes, ooooh, I haven't attended to this string for too long.
Shoot! So the square edge works.
No. The bottom line... I will never purvey, or build a speaker with less than a 1 1/2" radius roundover in the future. If the subjective value of the Sonicap Platinum bypass capacitor implementation is $180, the subjective value of the 1 1/2" radius roundover on all edges of the baffle is $400-$500. This is my conveyance and and the believe of the other local gentlemen who performed the a/b testing during the final stages of the 1801C. I will explain the history and backround.
I made several incorrect assumptions. First, I assumed that if having a large radius roundover on a speaker was important that ALL truly high-end loudspeakers would implement a large radius roundover. This assumption was incorrect. Second, I assumed that a 3/4" roundover should have a some impact, but in very thorough previous testing (objective and subjective). This assumption was incorrect. Third, I assumed that if a large radius roundover was significant, then surely the DIY crowd would implement this in their workshops. This assumption was incorrect.
Several months ago I asked Dave Elledge what he thought of large radius roundovers. I deeply respect Dave's opinion. His commentary and insights are on par with Jeff Glowacki's insights. Over the years, I have eventually learned that many of their opinions are true and valid. Dave conveyed that the radius has to be large to be effective. He further explained that a 1 1/2" radius would be effective and I agreed to try this.
My experiment was setup in my living room using outboard crossovers and two pairs of 1801C loudspeakers. Both pairs of speakers used the Accuton C95 woofer and the Hiquphon OW1 tweeter. As mentioned above, there was no discernable measurable impact. While there were measurable differences, they were very small and nothing that would indicate a difference between the two cabinets. One pair of cabinets was the 1801 floorstanding version having square edges. The other cabinet was the 1801 stand mounted version with a 1 1/2" radius roundover.
I also understand that visual appearance can be a factor in the subjective opinion regarding a loudspeaker. On this subject, the audibly superior cabinets were quite... ugly. The 1801 floorstanding cabinets ware nicely finished with a cherry veneer. The 1801 stand mounted cabinets were raw MDF.
Several pieces of music were used and 3 pairs of ears were subjected to the a/b test on different occasions. The commentary was universally similar. There was a significant difference. The difference was not subtle. The impact of the large radius roundover was easily superior.
At this point, I am certain there will be those who feel the need for a gazillion listeners performing a double-blind test. My response to this is two-fold. First, it doesn't matter how much recorded historical evidence is present, folks will still chose to deny historical evidence. Second, I build speakers for me. I have no interest in spending the time and finances necessary to conduct a thorough scientific examination. // Hmmmm, these comments seem abrupt and my credibility might be at risk. Okay, truthfully, I am from the government and here to help aa.
After my experiment I learned via the rumor-mill that another well respected direct to consumer Loudspeaker vendor in the Midwest verbally conveyed that the radius has to be about 1 1/2" before becoming subjectively affective.
Okay, then what about the 1801C progress??
Objectively - it's done. I have absolutely no desire to tweak or putter with any aspect of the design or performance. And, candidly, I never thought it could sound so good and so right.
However there are some other matters:
1. I need to get the 1801C rhetoric published on my web page.
2. I need to build a pretty pair of speakers (or several). And, I need to take a plethora of photo's during the process. My current speakers are splash painted MDF following an elbow surgery.
3. I need to find a viable solution for pre-cut baffles. Cutting a 1 1/2" roundover requires significant tooling for a single project.
The cost the 1801C kit will be $1400 with Black Hole 5, Continuous Cast internal cable, and the Sonicap Platinum Bypass capacitors. Yes, this is expensive. If I could build a better speaker for less $$ inside the cabinet, I would.
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This afternoon I found no significant measurable difference between the 1801C with a 1 1/2" radius roundover on the baffle and the 1801C with a sharp/square cabinet edge.
Dave
were these measurements all on axis. try taking some measurements at some angles off axis and see if that still persists. i might also look at the time domain for differences rather than frequency domain.
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were these measurements all on axis. try taking some measurements at some angles off axis and see if that still persists. i might also look at the time domain for differences rather than frequency domain.
I accomplished 30-50 measurements (MLS and Gated) attempting to discern any notable differences - most of them off axis. Most of the measurements were horizontal variations and a few vertical variations.
Dave
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That's interesting. I always knew that 1.5" was acoustically small, but I didn't know it was non-measurable.
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You have my admiration for making that statement,,,, there are many more manufacturer's that would say their instruments are the final word. I look forward to seeing your final design, whatever that may be.
Well, I do believe it's POSSIBLE to measure many more aspects of loudspeaker design and the internal components. I have seen some VERY impressive electronic analysis equipment in a military satellite construction facility in LosAngeles - Wow!
Dave
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That's interesting. I always knew that 1.5" was acoustically small, but I didn't know it was non-measurable.
That isn't exactly what I wrote.
I accomplished 30-50 measurements (MLS and Gated) attempting to discern any notable differences - most of them off axis. Most of the measurements were horizontal variations and a few vertical variations.
Clearly there were and are measurable differences. Most of the ripple was about 1 db with a few 2db deviations. However, there was nothing 4-5 db that I could decisively convey "there it is".
I fully appreciate the objectivist endeavors rooted in your comments. Indeed, I have tried to isolate the impact to something measurable, but I cannot.
Dave
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I will never purvey, or build a speaker with less than a 1 1/2" radius roundover in the future.
Dave,
You should not have an inferior speaker on your premises. I would be happy to quickly dispose of the offending 1801C square edge speakers and give them a good home. :wink:
Cheers,
Tom
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Tom,
I believe you are the gent living in Lincoln. As such, if you are really interested I could setup a listening session in a few weeks. But, I believe that after the listening session I can't imagine you would be willing to live with the square edges.
I suppose my work and materials in the square edge cabinets is worth about $200 assembled. The components are fairly easily installed in a few hours.
Dave
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hi dave,
i read your comments w/interest. subjectively, i would think rounding a cabinet edge would be a good thing, & would definitely outperform a square-edge cabinet, all other things being equal.. but, i have heard way too many square edge cabinets that yust sound so good, w/fantastic imaging/soundstaging, etc. would proac, for example, not use round-edge cabinets if they would impart even better performance? at the prices they awreddy charge, it would be easy to absorb (or pass on to the buyer!) the extra cost.
speaking of proacs, this brings up my second comment. maybe you were not comparing apples to apples. did you try a round edge floor stander & a square edge stand mount? or a round-edge vs square edge of the same cabinet style? i ask this because i know i distinctly prefer the proac 1sc over the proac 1.5, & these are basically the same speaker, except the 1.5 is floor-standing & the 1sc is stand-mount... hmmm... :wink:
best,
doug s.
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Hi Dave,
You have a good memory. I do indeed live in Lincoln. I am curious to hear the new 1801C but am completely satisfied with the "old" version with the Seas W18 woofer so it's a dangerous (i.e. expensive) proposition.
My comment about disposing the square edge speaker was in jest, however, it is a crying shame that such an attractive cabinet is not useful.
Take care,
Tom
(http://www.ellisaudio.com/P1010192.jpg)
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all other things being equal.. but, i have heard way too many square edge cabinets that just sound so good,
Me too. And, there are soooo many profoundly expensive speakers that don't have a significantly rounded edge on the baffle.
would proac, for example, not use round-edge cabinets if they would impart even better performance?
I can't comment on what other manufacturers have experienced or are thinking. I can only comment on what I have experienced and are thinking. In my a/b test the difference was quite significant. Unfortunately, adding a significant roundover is quite expensive from a manufacturing perspective.
at the prices they already charge, it would be easy to absorb (or pass on to the buyer!) the extra cost.
I... don't really think so. It would be markedly more expensive to produce and ship (more weight). Further, 99% of folks (including me until 2 months ago) don't perceive that a large radius roundover could or should have any impact. In the realm of selling a product, Perception Is Reality. Further, I think the large painted black roundover is far less attractive than a clean veneer edge. Implementing the roundover is an expensive proposition on many levels.
speaking of Proac's, this brings up my second comment. maybe you were not comparing apples to apples. did you try a round edge floor stander & a square edge stand mount? or a round-edge vs square edge of the same cabinet style? i ask this because i know i distinctly prefer the proac 1sc over the proac 1.5, & these are basically the same speaker, except the 1.5 is floor-standing & the 1sc is stand-mount...
Your query is reasonable, and I have considered this. Unfortunately, it is not he controlling variable. I have spent many hours with the 1801B in floorstanding (square edged baffle) and stand-mounted configurations (3/4" roundover). Several folks have performed this comparison. The difference was extremely small/non-existent.
I can also offer that the woofer in the two Proac speakers you mention is completely different, and the crossover must also be significantly different. I have a reasonably amount of objective (i.e. measured) and subjective experience swapping drivers and puttering with crossover typology, slopes and response levels. As such, it is my opinion that applying the Proac 1.5 & 1sc experience toward asserting the superiority of a stand-mounted speaker is spurious.
HOWEVER, I can and should offer that a relatively old acoustic handbook from the 1950/1960 authored by Olsen conveyed that loudspeakers having a shape similar to the human head were subjectively preferred and and had less baffle induced response ripple than other baffle configurations. I managed to obtain the handbook via interlibrary loan. I don't recall the specific handbook title/author, but it was mentioned on this company's page: http://www.usenclosure.com/WELCOME%20TO%20US%20ENCLOSURE%20COMPANY/index.htm (http://www.usenclosure.com/WELCOME%20TO%20US%20ENCLOSURE%20COMPANY/index.htm). I found the egg shaped enclosure rhetoric in the acoustic handbook was reasonably reflected in the commentary from the website. But, there were a few questionable "interpretations".
Hopefully my response is cohesive and understandable. Please let me know if there are informational gaps or areas where you desire further explanation.
Dave
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it is a crying shame that such an attractive cabinet is not useful.
My wife's words were somewhat less kind :o . She understands the time and effort that went into the floorstanding speakers, and two other pair of floorstanding cabinets. And, while my wife agrees that the splash-painted cabinet (color's chosen my my boys) sounds better, these speakers are not very classy.
Dave
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Maybe you and your wife can guide your boys into a better suited color for the rounded cabinets to "class" them up a bit.
Take care,
Tom
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dave, thanks for the info. in the case of proacs, it's my opinion, that, due to the already huge mark-up, proac could afford to incorporate a rounded cabinet - their customers would pay it. my tiny tablette 8 ref sigs retailed for $1800 (i think they are more, now), & no one in their right mind would pay that much for them. but they do! :lol: and, if you find a used pair for $1200 on a-gon, they're gone in a day. i can only imagine how much better they might sound in a 1.5" quarter-round cabinet...
re: the 1.5 & 1sc, must have been a brain infarct on my part - i thought they were identical. but you're right - the 1.5 has a bigger woofer...
best,
doug s.
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.....No. The bottom line... I will never purvey, or build a speaker with less than a 1 1/2" radius roundover in the future. If the subjective value of the Sonicap Platinum bypass capacitor implementation is $180, the subjective value of the 1 1/2" radius roundover on all edges of the baffle is $400-$500. This is my conveyance and and the believe of the other local gentlemen who performed the a/b testing during the final stages of the 1801C. I will explain the history and backround.
I made several incorrect assumptions. First, I assumed that if having a large radius roundover on a speaker was important that ALL truly high-end loudspeakers would implement a large radius roundover. This assumption was incorrect. Second, I assumed that a 3/4" roundover should have a some impact, but in very thorough previous testing (objective and subjective). This assumption was incorrect. Third, I assumed that if a large radius roundover was significant, then surely the DIY crowd would implement this in their workshops. This assumption was incorrect.
I've recently been thinking about changing the baffles on my 1801's (currently MDF) to hardwood so I find this topic quite interesting. I can't quite picture how the roundovers are achieved - does the hardwood baffle now have to be at least 1 1/2" thick or does the roundover use both the timber baffle and the MDF sides to get the required radius? If the latter, wouldn't it make veneering quite difficult?
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does the hardwood baffle now have to be at least 1 1/2" thick
Yes.
There are several mechanical difficulties when using the 1 1/2" radius bit.
1. A reduced speed router will be necessary. The bit will generate significant heat. Also, using the bit on high speed is quite frightening.
2. Most newer routers will not physically accomodate the very large bit. I decided to purchase a big Makita router and grind-out the aluminum base to accomodate the bit.
I suppose you could attempt veneering around the intial 3/4" of the roundover, but matching the veneer to the hardwood baffle would be quite difficult.
The changes to the 1801 cabinet aren't dramatic. They are twofold.
1. I decided to use 1 1/2" MDF on the back panel. I can't convey that I have a/b tested this, but this implementation is not very difficult and should/could be better.
2. The front baffle is now 3/4MDF and 1 1/2" of lumber. OR, if someone wishes to build a complete MDF speaker (and paint the cabinet), the baffle can be 1 1/2" total. I don't believe there is/will be an audible impact between 1 1/2" of baffle and 2 1/4 (total) of baffle.
Dave
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Dave - Are you close enough to completing your design work that you can give us an ETA for when you might begin selling kits?
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Dave--
Regarding the 1 1/2" roundover on your prototype "C"s: I assume that with the floor-stander you would not need to roundover the botton edge. Why not pre-route the roundover (and some opposite-edge profile) on long pieces of 1 1/2" x 1 1/2" square cherry, using a router table with that huge bit. Cut to size, with mitered edges where sides and top meet, and glue to the sides of your existing cabinets, flush with the front baffle, like a picture frame. On future cabinets the 1 1/2" thick baffle could be cut 1 1/2" large for each side rounded over. The top, sides (and bottom if stand-mounted) could be covered with planks of hardwood or MDF, flush to the outside of the baffle and with some sort of taper to the back, if desired. I think many veneers could be applied continuously around a 1 1/2" roundover--with the grain--which would give a nice clean look, but top and bottom roundovers would have to be accomplished (as you would say) with a rounded-over fillet of appropriate hardwood, which does sound a bit tricky....
-------------Mark
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Isn't a 1-1/2" roundover best (and most safely) cut on a shaper? (A woodworking shaper is a table containing a motor and vertical spindle, along with a fence and other guides. http://www.powermatic.com/Results.aspx?cat=332108 (http://www.powermatic.com/Results.aspx?cat=332108))
A good Amana 1-1/2" roundover shaper cutter is about $185. The cutter could be serially bought and sold from one Ellis 1801c builder to the next.
The 1801c builders can take their front baffle blank taken to any local custom cabinet shop or very well equipped amateur shop for the roundovers to be cut at a small cost with the builder's cutter. Then, sell the cutter to the next builder needing it.
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Or, for the 1-1/2" round over, make multiple angle cuts with a table saw to approximate the round over, then hand finish. Would it work to use a cabinet scraper ground to the 1-1/2" radius?...could a proper burr be put on the scraper's round-over edge?
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Dave - Are you close enough to completing your design work that you can give us an ETA for when you might begin selling kits?
I am able to sell kits now, but the builder would have to manage the 1 1/2" roundover on the current 1801 cabinet plans. And, the back panel should be 1 1/2" thick. A telephone discussion would be necessary to address any construction concerns. This is perfectly normal. I generally expect a few phone calls during construction on various topics.
Isn't a 1-1/2" roundover best (and most safely) cut on a shaper?
Yes. Using a 1 1/2" radius roundover bit on a router is on the fringe of viability. It works dandy on my Makita 4312 router . This router has ample power and can operate at a low speed, but a shaper would be more ideal - especially for a large production run of material. The larger overall diameter of a shaper, lower cutter head speed. and larger shank (stability) would make the shaper a better tool for any larger bits. If I wanted to run 1000' of material through the bit, a shaper would be a must. I did consider this before purchasing the Makita router.
Regarding the 1 1/2" roundover on your prototype "C"s: I assume that with the floor-stander you would not need to roundover the botton edge.
I don't have plans to purvey or encourage a floor standing 1801C speaker. This is simply because the width of the floorsander is only 7 1/2". With a 1 1/2" roundover a 7" woofer would look quite strange, and the crossover might also need work/changes. If the floorstander baffle was wider the volume of the cabinet would grow and there would be no need for the bottom portion of the cabinet. Therefore, I believe the most pragmatic approach is to build a stand-mounted cabinet very similar to the 1801B, but thicker panels on the front and back.
And... I do appreciate the rest of your commentary regarding another method of cabinet making to obtain the roundover. I have seen cabinets made this way, and... am not willing to chase this. While a cabinet with less lumber and more MDF would be more stable, implementing a "picture frame" around the baffle creates too many seams to fit. I find this labor extremely tedious and difficult to get perfect. If the cabinet was significantly wider, this approach (or something similar) would be necessary (IMO) - unless the lumber was quarter-sawn.
I do appreciate your comments, and would also like to convey that your explanation was extremely laconic :thumb:. I am certain that I couldn't have provided an explanation of similar fashion. My hunch is that you have performed this process a few times aa ?
Dave
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Or, for the 1-1/2" round over, make multiple angle cuts with a table saw to approximate the round over, then hand finish. Would it work to use a cabinet scraper ground to the 1-1/2" radius?...could a proper burr be put on the scraper's round-over edge?
With a good hand & eye this is possible. I do believe some folks could accomplish this with a high degree of success. However, I don't have this level of manual skill. I could do this task tolerably, but not to perfection.
There is a guy that at work that can hand-cut veneer inlay. The level of fine dexterity required is amazing! Laprosco-pic surgery is probably easier.
I have also seen folks hand-cut fancy dove tail joints by hand. This is completely uncanny IMO - wow!!
I don't believe the roundover must be prefect to accomplish the desired audible impact.
Dave
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David - I love my 1801b's, so I'm very curious what to expect from the 1801c's. When you have a chance, could you summarize the sonic differences between them?
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David - I love my 1801b's, so I'm very curious what to expect from the 1801c's. When you have a chance, could you summarize the sonic differences between them?
I have been thinking about your query for a few days. Your query is reasonable, but I have some lament regarding the expression of my subjective commentary on my speakers. I have decided not to go down this slippery-slope.
I continue to believe there are too many folks conveying profusely too many good things about what they sell, and I believe this is wrong. A few weeks ago one of my older 1801B customers called me and conveyed that he was led-astray. He spent about $8k on a loudspeaker with a VERY solid cabinet, but only better than average drivers. Unfortunately, he was disappointed. Hence, I am really not willing to go down this slippery slope and won't post subjective prose regarding the sonic differences. However, a few comments seem appropriate.
I loved my 1801B speakers too. Indeed I thought there was no room for marked improvement in the realm of building a high quality 2-way speaker. It appeared that anything else available would simply be different, but not better. And, at various points in the development, this appeared to be the case. However, after all experiments were finished the end result are the following decisions that I will always implement in the speakers used in my living room. Every future loudspeaker used in my living room will have:
1. .1uf Sonicap Platinum bypass capacitors implemented pervasively.
2. At least a 1 1/2" roundover on the baffle.
3. Accuton Midrange/Midbass instead of a the SEAS W18.
I have been running the 1801C in my living room for the past 6-8 weeks. Upon completion of the splash-painted prototype and a very easy a/b comparison, I have no desire to listen to the 1801B. And, I have not used the 1801B since I completed the 1801C.
I am going on vacation in a few days and will leave my 1801B & 1801C speakers with a local hifi nut for a good comparison. When he is completed, I will ask him to post this review on this forum, and on AudioReview . Hopefully this will happen @ Aug 15th. I have always encouraged public feedback of my product and will continue to do this with the 1801C.
Sincerely,
Dave
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I had the rare pleasure of having the 1801b and 1801c in my listening room for about two weeks. I used my reference system described in the review and only displaced my ACI Jaguar 2000's to test both sets of speakers.
Comparison was of the B version of the 1801 in a floorstanding model and the C version as a standmount.
First up was the B which I have listened to before in a larger listening area than my current 13’ X 15’ room. In both cased the gear driving them is the same: Atma-sphere M60 v.III amps, a Meridian 508.24 CDP as the source and a Prometheus's passive pre-amp. All cabling is JPS Superconductor FX.
The B offers superb detail and a forward presentation with the soundstage somewhat in front of the speakers. The strong suit here is imaging. The placement of instruments and voices is obvious with eyes open or closed. I continually find that feeling of awe creeping in as I listen to familiar music that now is changed for the better by the ability to “see” the band through the B’s first class imaging. A very clean separation between instruments is evident and small nuances in the music are readily heard particularly during fade outs at the end of songs. In my previous experience I thought that the detail started to border on edgy though does not quite get there. In the smaller room I use now this effect was less noticeable and took longer to creep into my awareness. The highs are generally excellent being clean but not strident except perhaps on recordings that are bright to begin with – in my case a re-master of Poco’s Greatest Hits. Midrange is pure magic from female vocals to piano having a natural feel that just seems right. Bass is articulate though not particularly deep. The coherence of the sound as a whole though detailed with great imaging still sometimes gives the impression individual units presented simultaneously rather than a cohesive piece of music. This is the biggest flaw I find with the B because I lean toward warm and musical speakers.
Dropping the C version in place with the same equipment I find a remarkably similar speaker to version B but improved in some dramatic ways. I find the C has a very coherent presentation unlike the B while maintaining the spooky good imaging and detail of the B. The music always came through as a whole entity not as individual instruments. Delivery was more relaxed compared to the B while still maintaining detail that makes you smile and say “I never heard that before” but all in all it just flowed. The soundstage seemed a bit wider and a bit further back being on plane with the speakers. I notice a more complete sound off-axis translating to a bigger sweet spot. Though it uses the same tweeter there was never a feeling of edge or etch in the highs and I never got a feeling that the highs were too much. The highs were always sweet and airy with no bite. The same natural midrange and a deeper though slightly less articulate bass were evident. I would characterize both versions as quick - never lagging in transients or becoming muddy in complex music. Quite the accomplishment for a two way speaker. I found female vocalist particularly entrancing on these because of the great mids and cohesive delivery. I found myself listening again to familiar music because I could discern more detail delivered with silky smooth presence. I will call the B the more analytical sound whereas the C maintains the B’s strong points but with more cohesion and smoothness of presentation.
The C is a surprising step up from an already excellent B.
Music:
REM - Automatic for the People
Poco - Greatest Hits
Police - Ghost in the Machine
Diana Reeves - Goodnight, Good Luck soundtrack
Peter Gabriel - So
Stormfront - Storm Watch
Flying Pickets - Greatest Hits
Dave Grusin - Two for the Road
Heidi Joy - I'll take a Melody
Linda Ronstadt - Living in the USA
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Did the 1801b's have the .1uf bypass caps in them?
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Hi,
Thank you for providing an insight into the differences between these two speakers.
Accuton mid/bass drivers are truly very good quality.
Do you have any pictures of the new speaker?
Regards
Rod
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Did the 1801b's have the .1uf bypass caps in them?
Yes.
Do you have any pictures of the new speaker?
I... don't think Ralph took any pictures, and.. I am not sure that posting them will have any utility. I will convey a couple of snippets. The 1801B demo speakers looked much better than the the 1801C cabinets. The 1801B cabinets were hand rubbed figured cherry veneer that has aged for about 8 years. The 1801C cabinets, ahem, marginally tolerable in my wife's living room. They are mechanically solid, but the finish was "elbow surgery" quality. My boys chose the colors and the paint was splattered & squirted. They look like some flavor of modern art. but don't have any classy quality.
As mentioned elsewhere, the 1801C has the same cabinet configuration as the 1801B stand-mounted speaker. There are only 2 differences:
1. There is a 1 1/2" roundover on the front baffle.
2. The back panel is now formally 1 1/2" thick.
Dave
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dave, i'd love to see a pic of a cabinet w/the 1.5" front baffle roundover...
thanks,
doug s.
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There is already a good photo of the B version somewhere on this site. Dave has always done superb wood work and finishing on his speakers. The C version I auditioned has a paint job like an Eddy VanHalen guitar or a "Spin Art" project. After listening it did not matter.
Ralph
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Dave - Way back in the initial post of this thread, you said:
...there will eventually be a pair of 1801C speakers that travels for audition.
Do you still plan this road trip? I have no doubt the 1801C is superior to the 1801B, but the question remains: is the level of improvement worth the cost? The best way to answer this subjective question is through a comparison.
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There is already a good photo of the B version somewhere on this site. Dave has always done superb wood work and finishing on his speakers. The C version I auditioned has a paint job like an Eddy VanHalen guitar or a "Spin Art" project. After listening it did not matter.
Ralph
i have seen pics w/the 3/4" roundover, i wanna see the 1.5" roundover...
doug s.
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Okay, you have been very kind in your arm-twisting methods.
Here is a photo.
(http://www.ellisaudio.com/1801C.jpg)
I am sure that you can now understand why I was & am somewhat reluctant to publish this photo. It surely makes my workshop skills appear very crude. My kids' think the paint job is cool, but most folks think the paint job is, ahem, lacking. I agree with "most folks".
My desire to do this paint job for my own living room was rooted in he following:
1. After listening to the 1801C I had little/no desire to listen to the 1801B. Since I completed the 1801C I have not listened to the 1801B. Painting the prototype 1801C MDF cabinets was the most time-effective solution to obtain a visually "tolerable" appearance. My wife agrees but has already said these painted cabinets will NOT be in her next home :nono:.
2. About 6 weeks ago I received the okay from my orthopaedic surgeon following my elbow surgery. I CAN go back to work in my workshop, but my few spare moments have been consumed working my deck handrail. Following this, my wife has clearly explained that the painted cabinets will depart her living room.
Dave
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thanks, dave. yes, i can understand mebbe not wanting to show these. :lol: so, i take it the cabinet is no wider than the "b" cabinet, to effect the larger roundover? and, it's hard to tell from the pic - is the midwoofer still offset, like it is in the "b" cabinets?
thanks,
doug s.
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so, i take it the cabinet is no wider than the "b" cabinet, to effect the larger roundover?
Yes - true. The cabinet remains 9" wide.
and, it's hard to tell from the pic - is the midwoofer still offset, like it is in the "b" cabinets?
No, the woofer is now centered.
Dave
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Dave, you're a regular budding Jackson Pollock :)
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Yes ... very Jackson Pollock and a lot of fun too. Maybe it would be good to let kids paint speakers more often.
You must have a damn big router :)!
Jules
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You should charge extra for that "Limited Edition" paint job.
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Dave,
Yes, perhaps a numbered and signed version could become the next big collectable!
Great sound and art -- all in one place.
It looks like you had fun. :D
I have to admit, with the bypass cap upgrade I recently installed with your help, I am having trouble imagining how much better the sound could get. But of course I trust your ears, perhaps more than my own ! Like many, I am eager to hear the C version.
I am also happy to read that your elbow is nearing the end of its healing process. You might want to insure those elbows in the future! :lol:
Bill C
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I did a web search for Jackson Pollock. Wow!! I noticed a few things.
1. People actually BUY this stuff :roll: ... WOW!
2. Most of his work is on a white backdrop/base. I thought about this, but black seemed more appropriate for speakers.
3. Folks who have seen the speakers in my home always seem to comment without being prompted, but the comments are always something like... wow, that's really neat! I think they would look great in my kid's playroom.
You must have a damn big router !
Well, this did present some problems. My old Rockwell router managed to spin the large radius bit, but the speed was frightening :o ! The bit created a fan-effect and a growl at 22000 rpm. Fortunately, the bit was balanced very well and the vibration was minimal. After about 2 passes with this arrangement I decided this was a very bad idea. It was dangerous and spinning the bit at this speed creates a cutter-head speed that is far from optimal.
So, I decided to go to the tool store. There is a dandy tool store about 5 miles from here. http://www.tighton.com/ (http://www.tighton.com/) . The folks there allowed me to turn-on the routers (most were fairly quiet). Unfortunately, NONE of the routers had a metal base (the structure) large enough to allow the 3 1/2" diameter bit to physically pass through. I eventually decided to purchase the Makita 3612. I ground about 3/4" of aluminium from the base with my die grinder. Then I used the carbide router bit to cut through the last portion of the aluminum base.
I really enjoy the new 3612 Makita router. It is VERY quiet. It is VERY smooth. The adjustments are really slick. The slow turn-on and slow turn-off are also very nice. And, I can swap bits with only 1 wrench. The Makita 3612 is monumentally better than my 30 year old Rockwell and 10 year old Porter cable routers.
(http://www.woodtools.co.nz/ImageLibrary/3612-M.jpg)
Dave
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I have to admit, with the bypass cap upgrade I recently installed with your help, I am having trouble imagining how much better the sound could get. But of course I trust your ears, perhaps more than my own ! Like many, I am eager to hear the C version.
Yep, I was there too. I never woulda' thunk it could get better.
IMHO (and the opinion of a couple other folks) , if the Sonicap Platinum's are worth $180 sonically, the 1 1/2" radius roundover is worth $400-$500. I wish this weren't true, but it is.
Dave
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Dave, I have one of those 3612's also. It's too late now, but when you want to spin a bit larger than the metal opening, it's a little easier to just make a large, thick baseplate. I used a 3/8" thick piece of clear polycarbonate plastic. You can make this quite large for added stability. Cut the opening in it to 3-3/4" and the widest part of your bit will sit within this opening...no metal work required.
In actuality, my "sub-base" is just a router table insert. Like this with a bigger hole.
(http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/graphics/suptuff.jpg)
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Wow!! We really do think in similar fashion. We both have white work surfaces, old Porter Cable/Rockwell Routers, a new Makita, with a thick plastic base!! :thumb: However, your stuff looks strikingly clean and this doesn't seem right. Something certainly must be wrong with your photo. I believe more sawdust and wood-grime is necessary aa .
(http://www.ellisaudio.com/Bit1.jpg)
(http://www.ellisaudio.com/Bit2.jpg)
I thought about just using the thick plastic base to accommodate the rebate for the bit, but this is limiting. Using this method completely eliminates the possibility of progressively using the plunge function of the router to progressively make deeper cuts in the material. Given the very deep cut from the large router bit, I really don't think its possible/wise to make the roundover 1 very deep pass with a router. Perhaps this would be possible on a shaper. They have more oomph.
I used a couple layers of plexiglass glued together to form my router base. Where did you purchase the polycarbonate? This material would seem more solid than plexiglass.
I really do like having a large and solid base for my router. This enhances the stability significantly.
Dave
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That was just a stock photo from the place that sells the clear plastic:
http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/pages/routacc1.html
My shop is little more than a dungeon.
(http://members.verizon.net/~pecker/3612c002s.jpg)
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My shop is little more than a dungeon.
But it appears to be a very clean dungeon. aa .
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Dave, Will you be showing your new "artwork" in Denver next month?
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Dave, Will you be showing your new "artwork" in Denver next month?
Oh no :oops: :oops: . I don't think I would even show this speaker at a DIY event.
I due to family and professional obligations, I will not be attending the RMAF this fall. I... might attend next year, but this is uncertain. I am retiring from the USAF June 1, 2009 and will most likely be moving to Minneapolis, MN in the summer of 2009. I am doubtful that I will have a workshop fully arranged in sufficient time to arrange something for the fall of 2009 at RMAF. So, my next visit to RMAF will most likely be 2010.
Dave
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A little late to this thread but I found entrope's review to be intriguing, in particular:
The coherence of the sound as a whole though detailed with great imaging still sometimes gives the impression individual units presented simultaneously rather than a cohesive piece of music. This is the biggest flaw I find with the B because I lean toward warm and musical speakers.
Since I own these speakers I'm trying to imagine what exactly he's hearing when he makes this observation. "Warm and musical" I get, and it sounds like the C is a warmer speaker. But "individual units presented simultaneously" isn't the impression I get from the B's; I'm mainly aware of a sound stage with instruments clearly defined in it - the old disappearing speaker effect. How cohesive the music is strikes me as related to other factors than individually demarcated instruments. At any rate, I get that the 1801C may be more mellifluous and less forward sounding, as well as a bit deeper. IME how forward the B's sound relates very much to how they're placed, but they're never not going to be a basically forward presentation. Still, the more space between them and the front wall, the more depth, as you'd expect.
Anyway thanks for the writeup - the C is something to keep my eye on and I'd be certainly interested in hearing the demo pair if it ever makes the rounds.
Oh - I would also add that in my setup the stage is about level with the speakers, not in front of or behind. Mine are pointed roughly along the diagonal axis of my listening room so that there's a triangle of space behind the speakers, i.e. no flat front wall.
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Anyway thanks for the writeup - the C is something to keep my eye on and I'd be certainly interested in hearing the demo pair if it ever makes the rounds.
Dave - Do you indeed plan a road trip for the 1801C's?
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Dave - Do you indeed plan a road trip for the 1801C's?
Well... I will be moving in the spring of 2009 and my speakers won't have a home for a few months. The likely result is that their time would be best spent in another home/system. IF (IF) I manage to complete another pair of pretty speakers for my wife, the demo speakers will be able to visit a few more homes.
Dave
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David, anywhere near a date where the 1801c will be available?
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Drab,
Thanks for your query.
I could sell a kit to you now, but a verbal explanation of the very minor cabinet changes from the 1801B to 1801C would have to suffice. The front panel lumber is thicker (2 1/4" total). The back panel is thicker (1 1/2" MDF). The Radius on the front baffle is now 1 1/2".
I started video-taping the cabinet build process a few weeks ago, but my 2yr old Canon video camera (mini disc) didn't like the fluorescent lights in my workshop. The results were pixillated and fuzzy during any movements. I have read this is a common phenomena and my Canon CD camera doesn't have a setting for fluorescent lights.
Then @ 1 week ago the physical therapist provided some movements that grossly exacerbated the sprain in my right knee. I can walk, but with a "90yr old limp".
On a positive note, my wife reminded me last night that we have an older Sony mini-tape camera. It's a Hi-8 model with CCD. I recall this unit having surprisingly good video quality and believe it should work under the fluorescent lights.
So, that's what I have done lately. I convey these remarks so that you will know that I have not quit on the project.
Also, over the past 4-6 months I have experienced a few occasions where I thought the tweeter was perhaps slightly too pronounced on some recordings. Yesterday my wife gave me an old Steve Miller Band Greatest Hits CD. It was absolutely perfect :thumb:. I wish that recording studio engineers all had the same ears and brain :roll:.
Dave
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dave, what height do you reccomend for stands for the 1801c?
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The same height as previous - about 24". I suppose if a guy slouches considerable a shorter stand would be more appropriate :wink: . However, I really don't hear a huge difference when moving vertically 10-20" vertically on most cone-based speakers. My perception in this regard is very different for Ribbons/planar/line array speakers.
Also, I am almost finished with my preparations for selling our home and moving. I won't likely have an active workshop for a considerable time. While I remain very pleased with the design of the 1801C, proper documentation requires a plethora of photos/video to support the project plans. This must be accomplished during the build of additional 1801C cabinets.
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thanks dave, i hope you have a safe and "murphy free" move. what state are you going to move to?
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We are planning a move to Minnesota - Primarily due to the winter season :thumb: . Well, actually about 90% of our family lives in Minnesota.
Dave
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Or, for the 1-1/2" round over, make multiple angle cuts with a table saw to approximate the round over, then hand finish. Would it work to use a cabinet scraper ground to the 1-1/2" radius?...could a proper burr be put on the scraper's round-over edge?
With a good hand & eye this is possible. I do believe some folks could accomplish this with a high degree of success. However, I don't have this level of manual skill. I could do this task tolerably, but not to perfection.
Another way is to use a series of straight cuts of varying depth. So, you'd start out with the table saw blade lowered and make a cut well in from the edge. Then you gradually raise the blade and make cuts getting closer and closer to the edge.
Then you use a chisel and sander to clean it up and get a nice round profile.
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Hi Dave,
Any news/new pictures of the 1801C's?
Kind regards,
Gerard
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Any news/new pictures of the 1801C's?
Unfortunately, no. I could probably post a photo of my workshop. It's immaculately clean :( . It hasn't been exposed to sawdust for months :cry: . Our home is still for sale and we have another house-showing this morning. This is bothersome for me too.
Dave
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Hi Dave,
That's not so good news indeed. I though you had moved already.
How are your elbow and knee(s) going BTW? Hopefully a lot better.
Regards,
Gerard
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That's not so good news indeed. I though you had moved already.
Me too. Six months ago I never would have though the job search and move would take this long. But, it has. Fortunately, we aren't suffering financially. Many folks in the USA are suffering financially. These folks generally lived at the edge of their financial means, and have little/no financial buffer. Last month the number of home forecloseures in the Minneapolis (Minnesota) metropolitian area were up 140% when compared to 1 year ago.
Hmmm, how is the economy on your side of the pond?
How are your elbow and knee(s) going BTW? Hopefully a lot better.
My elbow hasn't really been used and is therefore fine. My knees continue to be a learning process. I have learned the following.
- Physical therapy for my knees is a long term detriment.
- My knees can feel changes in weather before they happen.
- My knees feel better if I drink a considerable amount of water and remain hydrated.
- I can still ride bicycle, and have been doing plenty of this. My road bike is 20 years old, but remains a decent bicycle and gets plenty of use. And, riding bicycle actually helps my knees feel better!! :thumb: .
Dave
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The economy on our side. It is on the up again (for now at least). In comparisson to the US the effect of the crisis has been less noticable. Of course a lot of employees have been fired and companies have gone bankrupt but by far not to the extent of the US.
The housing market has become very difficult too. There are a lot of houses for sale but very few buyers (because the banks are not eager anymore to give out morgages and people have no certainties at their jobs) so the house prices go down. Like a negative spiral...
Of course there are a lot of people here too that were maxxed out on their morgage and have big financial problems now. Houses being sold on auctions (foreclosure?). But I think the effect is less because banks here in the Netherlands have always been more demanding with giving out morgages (in max. amount) But if you are fired you won't be able to pay the bills so all the above mentioned reasons count.
On the up side it is good to hear you are managing to "live" with your knees. Hopefully it won't restrict you in playing with your sons.
Back to speaker building. Check out the work of this guy. I have had contact with him for milling the parts for my cabinets. Seems to be a really nice guy and his work/method looks great. Very extensive though. Nice to see....
http://www.collier.be/ (http://www.collier.be/)
KR,
Gerard
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Wow! That guy does amazing work!
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_wDaWafhfM2w/SFPNbDYbfII/AAAAAAAAC1c/0bPha_DjpNc/HPIM2212%20%5B800x600%5D.JPG)[img]
I am going to read more about his moulding methods. This intrigues me.
Dave
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That's what I thought too... :o
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I'll give one more link from my collection. Here you can admire some more modulair speaker building as well some very nice woodwork. Check out the gallery section.
http://www.ebelholztechnik.de/galerien/Nexus/nexus_mdf/ (http://www.ebelholztechnik.de/galerien/Nexus/nexus_mdf/)
BTW awfully quiet here in the 1801 forum... Maybe I should post one of my 1801C designs for feedback.... What do you say Dave?
Gerard
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BTW awfully quiet here in the 1801 forum... Maybe I should post one of my 1801C designs for feedback.... What do you say Dave?
Sure, go for it! I have always encouraged customers to experiment with the cabinet! Some variation is very acceptable. In theory there are many things to nit-pick about cabinet design and shape, but for the majority of cabinet variations have relatively little audible impact. These changes might be audible, but determining a better/worse environment would be very difficult - IME. I... should probably explain MY opinion in the next discussion string.
Dave
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I have received a few email inquires recently regarding the status of the 1801C. Certainly the timeline for this project has become waaaaay tooooo loooong relative to what is customary. Certainly a decent speaker is possible in @ 6 months of semi-focused effort. I wish to respond publicly so that all may understand the status. Yesterday my wife and I completed the initial stage of our transition to Minnesota. After about 6 months of maintaining an immaculate home we finally sold it. We will close on the sale on the 30th of September.
Yesterday, we moved about 14000lbs of personal goods into a rental home in Shoreview, MN. My wife seems happy, and our neighbors are wonderful. If my wife continues to be happy with her new job, we will most likely buy a home in Shoreview next spring/summer.
Until this happens, my workshop will remain in boxes as our current home doesn't have the space to setup a functional workshop. My splash-painted prototype 1801C sounds quite decent, but I need a workshop to complete the plans (with photos) for the 1801C. And, I would like to build a respectable looking pair of cabinets for my wife?s living room.
So, as of now, the 1801C won't be finished for a looooong time.
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Congratulations on the sale of the home Dave. We have moved twice and it can be difficult to keep the home in show condition as you don't live like that. Being close to family in Minnesota is priceless.
I am sure that the 1801Cs will be worth the wait when you finally get around to documenting the build process.
Take care,
Tom
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Dave:
Congratulations on retirement, selling the house, and making the move. You're probably not prepared to move again, but you'll have a few months to recover from the last move. :D Selling a home, moving, and contemplating moving again is very demanding, and I wouldn't be surprised if you weren't exhausted. Hope that everything in MN works out well for your family and you.
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I consider the "looong delay" is a blessing in disguise for me. I'm saving money.
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Congratulations on retirement, selling the house, and making the move. You're probably not prepared to move again, but you'll have a few months to recover from the last move. Selling a home, moving, and contemplating moving again is very demanding, and I wouldn't be surprised if you weren't exhausted. Hope that everything in MN works out well for your family and you
Thanks for the note.
Actually, I feel better than I have in several years. I now have 6+ hours of regular sleep every night and manage a good long workout at the gym twice a week when my son is in preschool. There are some facets of my previous job that I miss, but not many of them.
I don't miss the 60+ hour work weeks, night shifts, and not having any ownership of my schedule. After many years of this I had forgot what a healthy lifestyle feels like. It is truly amazing what good sleep and a little exercise can do for a guy. Sure, I still have a bad elbow, and arthritis in both knees. But, I can still do cardio and I can stil do a few weight bearing exercises. I feel great.
While my workshop remains in boxes, my wife and boys are happy :thumb: . This is what really matters.
I... have time to convey a short snippet about the importance of being a father. The message is that no matter what socioeconomic status a father maintains, his son thinks that dad is a hero.
Several years ago I was at a Menards hardware store. I noticed a man @30 years old in a raggedy military uniform with his son. The man was a Sergeant, and seemed old for his rank. Hence, he was behind the achievement curve relative to most folks. Many of his peers probably outranked this man. Nonetheless, about 2' behind the man was a young boy looking up at dad with gleam and pride. That little boy was following his hero - dad! Nothing could be more important to that little boy. He was at the hardware store with his dad.
Many men don't realize how truly important their presence is to thier children. Whenever I wonder what I should be doing with my life, I think of that little boy in Menards following his hero.
Oh, and the chamion of all dad's is Dick Hoyt. This guy sets the bar VERY high:http://teamhoyt.com/ (http://teamhoyt.com/)
Okay, I'll get off the soap box.
Thanks for reading.
Dave
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Any updates?
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Any updates?
I am sorry, but I have no updates in the realm of building loudspeakers. I don't expect to have the workshop necessary to complete the 1801C plans for at least 6 months.
The real estate values continue to decline and my family is very happy in the home we rented in Shoreview, MN following our move from Omaha, NE. Buying a home now seems to be a poor financial decision.
Dave
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Thanks Dave.
Do you expect the 1801C to be substantially better than the "b"? What "areas" / "issues" are you trying to address with the "c"?
Thanks and Merry Christmas!!!
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Do you expect the 1801C to be substantially better than the "b"? What "areas" / "issues" are you trying to address with the "c"?
Hmmmm,
A proper answer to your question would require substantial text profoundly rooted in self aggrandizement on my part. I have endeavored to avoid this for many years and wish to continue in this stead. It is my belief that unbiased words from others will provide the foundation for my reputation and credibility.
I fully realize that the 1801C will be significantly more expensive than the 1801B, and realize that his may not be appaling for everyone. Certainly the laws of diminishing returns apply. I have been fortunate to be able to afford the more expensive driver and more expensive capacitors. Initialy I thought the positive results were rooted in "luck". I have subsequently learned otherwise.
I really don't wish to comment further. You are certainly willing to contact me via telephone for further explanation. Also, I have been gradually working on a rhetoric update regarding loudspeaker drivers for my webpage.
It is time to go to Grandpa's farm. My boy's will certainly have a wonderful time!
Dave
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Hello Dave, how are you?
All my equipment are also in boxes for a long, long time, but I will probably set it up again in a few weeks.
Do you have any update in the 1801C?
Best regards,
Guilherme
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Hmmm,
No real update. I continue to listen to the 1801c on a daily basis and my only mild desire to experiment with a slightly larger cabinet (30L) and perhaps a passive radiator. The current cabinet is @ 21.5 liters and I think the C95 may tolerate a 30 liter cabinet very well. The current bass is very tight but seems to roll off at about 45 hz. In the realm of compromises, the bass might be better overall if it were deeper and not so tight.
I remain continuously occupied by things that need work in our new home. My wife and I purchased a foreclosed home, but in fairly good condition. Nonetheless, there seems to be a constant stream of things that need a little time and effort. I visited with an electrician a few days ago that is going to wire some 220v outlets in my workshop area. After this, I can start assembling my workshop.