AudioCircle
Community => Regional Audiophiles => Denver Audio Mafia => Topic started by: cryotweaks on 24 Oct 2007, 01:35 am
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Saturday, November 17 at 1:00 pm Tweek Geek is hosting an open house to celebrate the new showroom in Arvada, Colorado.
This promises to be a great time, featuring:
- FOOD! My wife (a culinary student), a few of her student friends, along with one of her instructors from Johnson & Wales University will be catering the event(yum!).
- Clayton Shaw of Emerald Physics will be present to discuss & demo his CS2 loudspeakers on the main level system.
- The Usher Audio Be-718 will be featured with Luminance Audio amplification in the lower level system.
- A great opportunity to meet with local area audio nuts and geeks.
Anyone interested in attending please RSVP to me via PM.
Cheers!
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Have a great time guys, sounds like you are in for a nice treat.
George
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Sounds like some nice gear will be featured. Out of curiousity, what will you be using to drive the CS2's?
I already know how good the Luminance and 'Silver & Oil' Usher 718's sound so I can only imagine the BE's will be truly amazing. :thumb: What preamp will you be using to feed the KST? Again, just out of curiosity.
And, you get to meet the man, Clayton, in person
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There is still a lot up in the air regarding gear. I hope to have a Dodd Battery pre, and as far as amps go, I may have a surprise or two. Whatever works best for the CS2's is what I will use. I hear you are working on some amps, perhaps they could be made available? :D
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There is still a lot up in the air regarding gear. I hope to have a Dodd Battery pre,
The Dodd pre should be sweet!
and as far as amps go, I may have a surprise or two. Whatever works best for the CS2's is what I will use.
I was curious if you were going to be using one (or two) of the Usher amps with the CS-2s.
I hear you are working on some amps, perhaps they could be made available
I would be honored for you to hear the BE (Bella EXtreme) amps driving these speakers but in honesty, timing is my only issue. The 17th will be here before we know it and the benches are still full with current orders. Unless....if one of my BE customers will be attending, maybe they could bring their's along with 'em :wink:
Either way, sounds like a great time.
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Its getting good! There will now be a drawing for a pair of Usher S-520 loudspeakers and an Audience aR1P power conditioner. All attendees will qualify for the drawing.
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Mike,
Count me in! RSVP sent.
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RSVP sent :thumb:
thanks, looking forward to this
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How did things go?
George
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No one's posted yet? And I thought I was the slow one.
First, a big thanks to Mike and his wife Maya for having a house full of audio geeks over. Maya and another woman prepared some mighty fine eats and perhaps the best dessert I've ever tasted. :)
Where to start. The basement system was Wayne's Ultra Squeezebox with the Ultimate Nirvana PS feeding the Bolder/Bent/Burson preamp driving the mystery amp into a pair of Usher BE 718 (I think) speakers. It was sounding very nice and as I was an early guest I was fortunate enough to get a power supply comparison. We removed the Nirvana PS and put in the Ultimate IV (I believe) and the difference was not subtle at all. Much was lost in regards to leading edge attack, spaciousness and just overall life. It wasn't very long before I asked that the Nirvana PS be put back in. No question it's the real deal.
The upstairs system was a Transporter feeding a Behringer DCX2496 which drove 4 nuforce amps into the Emerald Physics CS2's. I was disappointed at what I was hearing, it just wasn't integrating well, the midrange was fuzzy and the bass wasn't keeping up with the rest of the music. Not at all what I heard at RMAF. A little later Clayton Shaw arrived and changed the setup considerably and the improvement was amazing. All the issues I had with the system were gone and the sound was very good. I don't particularly care for the nuforce amps and I'd really love to hear these with some good ole' class AB linear amps. Also, the DCX was bone stock so the results should be even better with some work to the Behringer.
I really enjoyed the CS2 setup once Clayton had it tweaked. :)
Thanks again for having us over Mike.
Mike
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Thanks for your comments Mike.... :D
....I'd really love to hear these with some good ole' class AB linear amps.
Which amps would you use Mike ? Thanks....... :thumb:
Chris
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Chris,
Not sure which amps, a lot of power isn't need on the top end and even with the EQ on the bass I don't think really high power is needed. Mike has one of the Luminance amps that I really enjoyed last time I was over but he didn't have two of them for the need 4 channels of amplification. Same goes for the new "mystery" amp he was using the basement system. Something that would accept a balanced signal would be nice but not mandatory. Given the XO is at 1kHz I'd be a bit hesitant to try and mix tubes and SS but the slopes are very steep and it might work just fine. If so something like my buddy Jerry's Mac 275 on top and maybe something like the Odyssey Extreme mono's on the bottom since they tend to have a death grip on the woofers.
Realistically, just a pair of nice stereo amps would likely work great. I'm just not a a fan of the nuforce sound but once Clayton had the system tweaked there is no question it was sounding very nice.
mike
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Thanks Mike.... :thumb:
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... but once Clayton had the system tweaked there is no question it was sounding very nice.
mike
do you know what specifically Clayton did to tweak the system?
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I agree with Mike (mgalusha). The sound of the CS2s certainly lived up to their hype, at least they did after Clayton played around with them. He moved them further out into the room (at least 6-8 ft) and restored the Behringer settings he specifies for that room placement. They certainly sounded better than any $3K speakers have any right to sound. Very open and dynamic. You can definitely tell there's no passive crossover mucking up the works.
I was really surprised to hear how well the two 15" woofers integrated with compression tweeter. I couldn't "hear" the crossover at all. They may have been the slightest bit recessed in the midrange, but then again that may have been the Nuforce amps. I too would love to hear them on some good old fashion tubes. The tweeter is very extended but with no harshness. I sat in the sweet spot for a while with it really cranked on some Count Basie and it never got to be too much for me. I have a real sensitivity to harsh tweeters and these speakers always sounded refined.
And the food! What a spread! Thanks to Mike G. and Clayton and everyone else who put the event together. I couldn't stay long because of another commitment, but I really enjoyed hearing the CS2s. Too bad I don't have the room for them.
Steve
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Chris,
Not sure which amps, a lot of power isn't need on the top end and even with the EQ on the bass I don't think really high power is needed. Mike has one of the Luminance amps that I really enjoyed last time I was over but he didn't have two of them for the need 4 channels of amplification. Same goes for the new "mystery" amp he was using the basement system. Something that would accept a balanced signal would be nice but not mandatory. Given the XO is at 1kHz I'd be a bit hesitant to try and mix tubes and SS but the slopes are very steep and it might work just fine. If so something like my buddy Jerry's Mac 275 on top and maybe something like the Odyssey Extreme mono's on the bottom since they tend to have a death grip on the woofers.
Realistically, just a pair of nice stereo amps would likely work great. I'm just not a a fan of the nuforce sound but once Clayton had the system tweaked there is no question it was sounding very nice.
mike
Thanks for the feedback guys.
Mine will have the Odyssey Extreme Mono SE's on the bottom end and the Bella Extreme 3205 that was at Wayne's RMAF room last year on the top. Should be an interesting setup to say the least.
Tom
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Thanks to all who dropped by.
I think we had about 40 people through the house over the course of 4 hours. Mike's wife and her instructor put out a spread that was unbelievable. I hope they wrote down all that was offered to refresh my memory. The lemon curd served over blueberries was the most fantastic desert I can remember.
I was stuck in the basement for much of the day. I missed hearing when Clayton moved the speakers and reset the EQ, but I did hear the difference later. It seems the speaker NEED to be placed very deep into the room 5 feet is the minimum distance they can be front the front walls. They also need to be toed in quite a bit.
The Usher speakers impressed all who heard them with their small size and big performance. I compared the power supplies for the SB on two occasions. I was using my prototype Ultimate MKIII without the pre-regulator circuit and no Bybee Purifiers but with the Aspen Audio Nirvana upgrade. I replaced it with my prototype of the Ultimate MKIV WITH the pre-regulator and four Bybee Purifiers. In both cases the difference was immediate and obvious. After maybe 5 notes, Mike Galusha asked for the Nirvana to be put back :wink: .
The leading edge transients were faster. There was more dynamics and impact. It sounded more like real musicians playing on real instruments in a real space. All in all, quite a beneficial upgrade.
The mystery amp is an item the Mike Garner and I are looking at importing. It is built in China, loosely based on the old Mark Levinson ML-2 circuit. It is fully discrete, fully differential balanced and direct coupled. It is rated at 250 wpc into 8, 500 into 4 and 1000 into 2. It is very smooth with NO grit or grain. We hope to get a few more in and try them out with the Emerald Physics speakers.
I ended up meeting the husband of Maya's instructor and his friend, who are both big homebrewers. We ended up talking and drinking beer for more than a few hours after most had left. It was a great time and a lot of really nice people came by. Mike and Maya, thanks for letting everyone into your home and putting on a fantastic feed.
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Wayne....
I was stuck in the basement for much of the day. I missed hearing when Clayton moved the speakers and reset the EQ, but I did hear the difference later. It seems the speaker NEED to be placed very deep into the room 5 feet is the minimum distance they can be front the front walls. They also need to be toed in quite a bit.
At RMAF'07....a similar setup there.... almost half way out in the room.They need space.....
I compared the power supplies for the SB on two occasions. I was using my prototype Ultimate MKIII without the pre-regulator circuit and no Bybee Purifiers but with the Aspen Audio Nirvana upgrade. I replaced it with my prototype of the Ultimate MKIV WITH the pre-regulator and four Bybee Purifiers. In both cases the difference was immediate and obvious. After maybe 5 notes, Mike Galusha asked for the Nirvana to be put back..
Nice !!! Good to hear its working out.....8)
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I don't really have much to add, Mike Galusha pretty much summed it up in his post on the first page of this thread. Thanks to Mike
Garner and his wife for the hospitality.
do you know what specifically Clayton did to tweak the system?
The others mentioned the toe-in. Just to describe it more, Clayton had the CS2's crossed perpendicular in front of the sweet spot. I definitely learned a lot about how to tweak them. It will help me when mine arrive in the next week or so. George and I are about to set his up so I will get even more practice. :D
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Wayne....
I was stuck in the basement for much of the day. I missed hearing when Clayton moved the speakers and reset the EQ, but I did hear the difference later. It seems the speaker NEED to be placed very deep into the room 5 feet is the minimum distance they can be front the front walls. They also need to be toed in quite a bit.
At RMAF'07....a similar setup there.... almost half way out in the room.They need space.....
I compared the power supplies for the SB on two occasions. I was using my prototype Ultimate MKIII without the pre-regulator circuit and no Bybee Purifiers but with the Aspen Audio Nirvana upgrade. I replaced it with my prototype of the Ultimate MKIV WITH the pre-regulator and four Bybee Purifiers. In both cases the difference was immediate and obvious. After maybe 5 notes, Mike Galusha asked for the Nirvana to be put back..
Nice !!! Good to hear its working out.....8)
Just to be clear...they don't need to be "almost half way out into the room". :icon_lol:
They do need to be at least 3-5' into the room to sound their best. You also need to play with toe in and make sure that you select the proper pre-programmed file on the DCX-2496. All of this is outlined in the printed instructions that come with the speakers.
If you do these steps, you will be rewarded with some pretty awesome sound! :thumb:
Your dealer or Clayton will be able to help you if you have any questions.
George
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Maybe it seemed like halfway out into the room.... :lol:
(compared to other rooms...)
Here's a small photo of their room... (http://www.audioxsell.com/community/events/7/1039/Rocky-Mountain-Audio-Fest-2007/Emerald-Physics.htm)
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Thanks everyone for attending, and the kind words. A special thanks to Wayne, for manning the Downstairs system (Tip: Get his ultimate nirvana power supply), as well as the amazing (and fun) after gtg brewing talk. A big thanks goes out to Clayton for flying out, and the hands on demonstration on placement of the CS2's. I don't know of too many other manufacturers this committed to their dealers and their product. Simply amazing.
I really cannot emphasize enough that reading the manual is key when it comes to setting up the CS2's. Naturally, I didn't do that initially. :duh: Instead I set them up the way I would set up a typical speaker, then spent hours tweaking the parametric EQ, achieving only mediocre results. Clayton had the system dialed in in less than 10 minutes with the prescribed placement and the stock setting. If only I had read the manual FIRST.
The CS2's are definitely not a typical speaker in any fashion. They do need at least 3 feet between the rear wall and the speakers. They can be placed relatively close to the side walls. Clayton had the left speaker 2 feet from one side wall, and the right speaker about 18 inches from the right side wall. Distance between speakers is fairly important, as they need close to 8 feet between them. However, one can actually sit closer to them than the prescribed optimum, you will just need to adjust the toe-in accordingly.
I stayed up until 1am last night just enjoying the open, boxless, effortless sound of the CS2's. If you've never heard open baffle bass, it is the tightest, fastest most natural sounding low end you may ever hear. The dynamics of the CS2's from top to bottom are something to appreciate as well.
I had to move the speakers to the downstairs showroom today. With the lessons learned from Saturday, I had the system set up and sounding great in minutes. I have them 5 feet from the back wall, 8 feet apart, and the listening seat is 7 feet away, just toe'd in a bit more than for an 8 foot listening position. I am using the standard 5-8 preset on the stock behringer.
I am now using the Mystery amp on the top end, with a pair of Nuforce ref 9 V2's on the bottom end.
Happy, happy, joy joy!
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I was out enjoying the nice weather today and thus away from a computer, so my thanks to Mike are a bit belated, but every bit as sincere - thanks to you and your wife for your incredible hospitality, Mike! It was a great afternoon with two great sounding systems, great food (too many tempting morsels for our own good!) and lots of friendly, enthusiastic audiophiles.
Thanks also to Wayne for hauling his latest toys over, and to Clayton, for making the flight out to visit with us all - especially since he turned around and flew back that night!
Wayne's new Ultimate Nirvana power supply with Hugh Dean's feed-forward regulator is most definitely a step up from the Ultimate Mark IV, with the biggest difference involving noticeably better leading edge transients. Congrats to both gentlemen on what looks to be a great partnership! Unfortunately, I missed hearing the Usher Be-718s at RMAF, so I was glad to hear them with the rest of Wayne's rig in Mike's basement - they are an incredible little 2-way. I think they'll have a lot of competition at their price-point, but they are absolutely worth auditioning if you want a stand-mounted speaker, or even a compact floor-stander.
Clayton's CS2s sounded fantastic once they were repositioned. I wasn't familiar with Mike's room or most of his gear, so it is a bit difficult to nail down what each component contributed to the final sound, but the result was such that I'd welcome the chance to play with the CS2s in my own rig someday. Most of Clayton's concepts are very much in-line with where I've always wanted to take my own system eventually, so it is great to see it getting such a warm reception. (I hope that his speakers and some of the other active systems out there provide the electronics industry the additional impetus they need to produce more and varied digital crossover products.) The reduced sidewall reflections due to the combination of recommended toe-in and the directional nature of the waveguide mounted tweeter would seem to significantly reduce first reflection point concerns in narrow rooms. The CS2s definitely seem to benefit from the additional space behind them, however, although I'm not sure how much of the previously mentioned improvement was due to the increased toe-in (aimed maybe 18 in front of the listener's head) vs. the increased space behind the speakers (3 ft vs. 5 ft).
Actually, I would love to hear Wayne's SB3 and BBB pre-amp in front of the CS2s while we're at it, especially with a modded DCX. (mgalusha is going to be busy!) I suspect the impressive dynamic capabilities of the CS2 would have highlighted some of the differences between Wayne's power supplies even more.
Thanks for a great afternoon, everyone!
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I am now using the Mystery amp on the top end, with a pair of Nuforce ref 9 V2's on the bottom end.
Happy, happy, joy joy!
I was thinking the same thing, I would have like to have heard the mystery amp on the top end. It will be cool if you get a second one in and use two of the same amp to bi-amp. :drool:
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I’m a little late but I too would like to thank Mike Garner and his wife, a wonderful spread of food and
delicious desserts. I have to said Mike and Wayne put together one of the best “Get Togethers” I been to.
I also have to agree what everyone has said with Wayne’s power supplies and the CS2 speakers.
I was a little worried about the sound coming from the CS2’s but Clayton took care of that as soon as he walked in, what I’ve heard so far the CS2/DCX can be very flexible in a rooms set up it would be nice to get a little more info on the DCX as far as what it can do and cannot.
I also enjoyed the Tiny Dancers Ushers Be-718 (at RMAF too) they are great little monitors; I think Mike’s mystery amp matched up very well with them.
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I am now using the Mystery amp on the top end, with a pair of Nuforce ref 9 V2's on the bottom end.
Happy, happy, joy joy!
I was thinking the same thing, I would have like to have heard the mystery amp on the top end. It will be cool if you get a second one in and use two of the same amp to bi-amp. :drool:
I think a OTL amp would be killer on top.
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I’m a little late but I too would like to thank Mike Garner and his wife, a wonderful spread of food and
delicious desserts. I have to said Mike and Wayne put together one of the best “Get Togethers” I been to.
I also have to agree what everyone has said with Wayne’s power supplies and the CS2 speakers.
I was a little worried about the sound coming from the CS2’s but Clayton took care of that as soon as he walked in, what I’ve heard so far the CS2/DCX can be very flexible in a rooms set up it would be nice to get a little more info on the DCX as far as what it can do and cannot.
I also enjoyed the Tiny Dancers Ushers Be-718 (at RMAF too) they are great little monitors; I think Mike’s mystery amp matched up very well with them.
Pete,
What do you want to know about the DCX?
Ask away...
George
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Just a general idea of what the DCX does besides digital xover like phase/time and amplitude correction.
If you move the speakers around within a room what is changed do to phase/time and how.
I think some people thought you’d have to be a rocket scientist to get this to work in their rooms.
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Just a general idea of what the DCX does besides digital xover like phase/time and amplitude correction.
If you move the speakers around within a room what is changed do to phase/time and how.
I think some people thought you’d have to be a rocket scientist to get this to work in their rooms.
Pete,
The DCX2496 can do limited digital correction as well as perform its crossover duties.
Clayton is applying some EQ based on the driver's properties and room boundaries. You can also adjust gain, phase, add in delays, etc...but the beauty of this package is that you don't have to figure all this out for yourself!
You simply look at a chart that is provided in the user manual (you need to take some simple measurements - distance to the wall behind the speakers, distance between the speakers, distance from the speakers to your listening position) and select the appropriate pre-configured file for the DCX-2496...that's it! No mic or in room acoustic measurements are required. :thumb:
It is actually pretty easy to setup and get sounding good.
For the CS2's to really shine, you need to work on speaker placement and toe-in (just like any speaker), but these speakers are definitely more room friendly and ultimately easier to position than most other speakers.
Hope this helps...if not, let me know where you would like more info.
George
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You simply look at a chart that is provided in the user manual (you need to take measurements some simple measurements - distance to the wall behind the speakers, distance between the speakers, distance from the speakers to your listening position) and select the appropriate pre-configured file for the DCX-2496...that's it! No mic or in room measurements are required. :thumb:
Thanks, I bet alot of folks would be glad to hear that.