AudioCircle

Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Planar Circle => Topic started by: Ragnar71 on 27 Feb 2020, 04:17 pm

Title: Which Subs
Post by: Ragnar71 on 27 Feb 2020, 04:17 pm
I listen to Acoustical and Vocal driven music 90% of the time. As repremhsible as it may seem the MTV unplugged recordings are some of my favorite tracks to listen to. I’ve never had a dedicated 2 channel system, always AVR HT rigs . I’m going to buy some Maggie’s and will need to add subs. The subs may not do an a lot on most things I listen to, but the other 10% I must admit I occasionally listen to some classic and music from the 80’s & early 90’s. Most people say Maggie’s aren’t great for that, but honestly when I’m listening to AC/DC or Duran Duran ( don’t laugh, once in a blue moon I like to flashback to my high school days) I can handle it not being as great as they are with what I listen to the majority of the time. Nothing is perfect . Anyway...

The subs, I’m committed to running dual subs , but I read where with Maggie’s you need fast bass and not all subs are up to the task. My question is this, do I need to get servo subs like Rythmik, or Subs from REL or would some of the sealed SVS new subs work well? SVS is the most affordable , two of the SB 2000 pro , REL the most expensive, Rythmik in the middle. What do you use, those of you who run subs ? Just would like the opinion of some real people and not the ‘audiophile’ reviewers who listen critically and hear things I don’t think at 50 and been to too many concerts am even capable of hearing now. I’d like to do this right though . I’ve even considered the bass panels & subs... i would value any thoughts or opinions. The Maggie’s will be the .7i ‘s
Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: Tyson on 27 Feb 2020, 05:20 pm
OB subs are really the very best choice for planars (or any open baffle speaker, really).  These from GR Research are the ones you want (they use drivers from Rythmik Audio):

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/05/02/75/050275f123f85fa7b6b515303c5d628e.jpg)
Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: brooklyn on 27 Feb 2020, 05:41 pm
I recently purchased the Maggie .7’s and I’m presently using a Presonus T8 sub that I was formally using in a three piece desktop system and thought I would give it a shot. Mind you I was dead set against using a sub with Maggies.. The end results were better then I expected but probably not the best choice. I don’t have a large room so I’m looking at something in a smaller size, I’ve been looking at the REL T5 sub(s) as my next upgrade.. We’ll see how that goes.
Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: smargo on 27 Feb 2020, 05:54 pm
i use the svs 3000 sealed subwoofer $995 retail with the maggie LRS - its an incredible match imho

https://www.svsound.com/collections/3000-series
Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: Saturn94 on 27 Feb 2020, 06:23 pm
I’m very happy with my Power Sound Audio sealed sub (Triax)  paired with my Maggie LRS.  :thumb:

Also, IMO, my LRS sound great with any well recorded/well mastered recordings regardless of genre. :D
Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: Paddlefoot on 27 Feb 2020, 07:27 pm
I have Rythmik Audio F12G with my mini maggies and my LRS, fast, tight , sounds great and mates well with them.
Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: Tyson on 27 Feb 2020, 07:55 pm
You people need to try OB servo subs with your planars.  Trust me, you will thank me later!  :thumb: :lol:
Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: Saturn94 on 27 Feb 2020, 08:23 pm
You people need to try OB servo subs with your planars.  Trust me, you will thank me later!  :thumb: :lol:

No space or money for OB subs.  It was a stretch just to accommodate the LRS in my living room.

I’ve heard the GR Research OB subs (paired with Super Minis), and yes, they sound great.  That said, pairing Maggies with a good sealed sub isn’t exactly slumming it. ;)
Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: Tyson on 27 Feb 2020, 08:29 pm
No space or money for OB subs.  It was a stretch just to accommodate the LRS in my living room.

I’ve heard the GR Research OB subs (paired with Super Minis), and yes, they sound great.  That said, pairing Maggies with a good sealed sub isn’t exactly slumming it. ;)


I hear you re: space.  One thing I was thinking that might be clever is build the OB subs, turn them sideways and use them as very short stands for the speakers.  Takes up no more floor space and gets the bass integrated nicely. 

$860 per dual sub (plus box cost) is not too terrible I don't think.  But you are right, a single sub is definitely cheaper and can work well if you get it sealed and especially if you get a servo woofer like the Rythmik subs.  And cross it low enough. 
Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: Saturn94 on 27 Feb 2020, 08:36 pm
The GR subs definitely offer lots of performance for the buck.  :thumb:  They certainly can be used as stands for bookshelf/monitor speakers.  That’s how the Super Minis I heard were set up.  It might be a challenge putting Maggies on top of them though.  :lol:
Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: Tyson on 27 Feb 2020, 08:41 pm
The GR subs definitely offer lots of performance for the buck.  :thumb:  They certainly can be used as stands for bookshelf/monitor speakers.  That’s how the Super Minis I heard were set up.  It might be a challenge putting Maggies on top of them though.  :lol:

Hahahahaha you are right, you definitely don't want to orient the subs vertically and I don't think any Maggie besides the LRS or .7 would work.  BUT, with the LRS or the .7, why couldn't you put them on the subs themselves if you laid the subs down so they were horizontal?  That might even help out by increasing the image height.  I bet a .7 on top of a servo OB sub would get you crazy good imaging, midrange and detail, along with crushing bass down low.  Hell I'm kind of tempted to get a .7 just to try it out... :D
Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: Saturn94 on 27 Feb 2020, 08:50 pm
That would be interesting to hear.  Not sure I would like the look though. Post some pics when you do that.  :thumb:
Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: rollo on 27 Feb 2020, 09:14 pm
  A previously owned Carver Sunfire if you can find one. One will do.

charles
Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: anzaanimal on 14 Apr 2020, 08:39 pm
I have two REL 5SHO's with the wireless longbow.  Being able to put them far away from the 3.7i's and not having cables is great.  I found that adding a PS Noise Harvester to the outlets makes a huge improvement in focus and articulation.
Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: AvsFan on 15 Apr 2020, 04:35 am
https://rslspeakers.com/products/rsl-speedwoofer-10s/

This is the longest I have ever owned a subwoofer. Almost 3 years. And with good reason, I am finally happy with a sub! It's the most musical and articulate sub I have ever owned. I have tried the out with the LRS's and they're incredible. Very fast. I a, currently using dual RSL Speedwoofers with my ZU Audio Dirty Weekends, but as soon as RSL opens again, I will be buying two more! And don't let the $399 price scare you into thinking they are an entry level, "budget" sub, because I can assure you, they most certainly are not. The only thing entry or budget about them is the price. Brent Butterworth just reviewed it and named it The Best High Performance subwoofer. Brent Butterworth has been reviewing speakers, and more specifically, sub woofers for 20 years now.
 
https://thewirecutter.com/reviews/best-subwoofer-for-home/

They are a great sub, buy two for the price of one sub and have amazing stereo subs! By the way, the sub I replaced the the RSL's with was an SVS PC-2000. The dual RSL's are MUCH better for music than the SVS ever dreamed of. Now with that said, the SVS SB-3000 is supposed to be a real winner from what I am reading, but at $1099 for the premium gloss finish, I'd rather have two RSL's in the premium gloss white finish for $798!

Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: AvsFan on 15 Apr 2020, 04:42 am
No space or money for OB subs.  It was a stretch just to accommodate the LRS in my living room.

I’ve heard the GR Research OB subs (paired with Super Minis), and yes, they sound great.  That said, pairing Maggies with a good sealed sub isn’t exactly slumming it. ;)
,

Right there with you. Getting my LRS"s out 4 feet into a room that is only 12x10 is all I have room for. No where to put OB subs. There are plenty of options out there for a fast sub that will integrate well with the Maggie's. Rythmik, PSA, HSU and REL are also very good options.
Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: hayden on 15 Apr 2020, 06:01 am
Hsu ULS15 (one or duals).
Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: mcmusicman on 15 Apr 2020, 02:03 pm
Sometimes I wonder if I needed subs for my my 1.7s or if I needed subs to treat my room problems. I use a pair of Elac S12EQs with the auto EQ feature.  After positioning them asymmetrically in the listening space, getting the delay and shift corrected everything came together nicely.  I am not an audio technician, still learning every day but remarkably the mids and treble cleaned up, image space became wider and deeper with much better definition all around. Adding multiple large bass traps and some absorption areas did not hurt a bit.  I still scratch my head at how adding bass and adding bass traps helped everything else? I think it has something to do with reducing cancellations & smear. Attack or speed seemed to improve as well.
Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: AvsFan on 17 Apr 2020, 01:04 am
Hsu ULS15 (one or duals).

EXACTLY where I was heading with HSU.
And two subs, must you have! Of course.  :D
Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: AvsFan on 17 Apr 2020, 01:19 am
Sometimes I wonder if I needed subs for my my 1.7s or if I needed subs to treat my room problems. I use a pair of Elac S12EQs with the auto EQ feature.  After positioning them asymmetrically in the listening space, getting the delay and shift corrected everything came together nicely.  I am not an audio technician, still learning every day but remarkably the mids and treble cleaned up, image space became wider and deeper with much better definition all around. Adding multiple large bass traps and some absorption areas did not hurt a bit.  I still scratch my head at how adding bass and adding bass traps helped everything else? I think it has something to do with reducing cancellations & smear. Attack or speed seemed to improve as well.

I have gone on and on and on about this. There are so many people that hear the word sub, especially so called audiophiles and cringe or stick there nose up at the idea. People, it's soooo much more than just adding boom to your system. It makes the entire experience so much better. Properly integrated subs change everything. I have my dual RSL's dialed in for my home theater system and listening to two channel music out there is ridiculously great! I can't locate the subs at all. When I turn them off, the sound stage collapses and sounds flat. I mean it still sounds good, but not nearly as good. Adding subs to almost any music system is a good thing. Unless you have massive, true, full range tower speakers that play to 20hz easily and massive powers supplies to push those kind of speakers. Add a sub or two, you'll enjoy the music more. And it's not even a thought with the Maggie's. You MUST add subs or you're missing parts of the music.   
Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: smargo on 17 Apr 2020, 01:48 am
People, it's soooo much more than just adding boom to your system.
It makes the entire experience so much better. Properly integrated subs change everything.
You MUST add subs or you're missing parts of the music.   

agreed - its like an entire soundscape that happens - didn't know what i was missing until i started using the svs 3000 sealed sub with the LRS's
Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: AvsFan on 18 Apr 2020, 09:59 pm
agreed - its like an entire soundscape that happens - didn't know what i was missing until i started using the svs 3000 sealed sub with the LRS's

That SB-3000 seems real nice!
It has really caught my eye but for my to channel room, decided to go with four 8inch subs.
Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: Wind Chaser on 18 Apr 2020, 11:33 pm
I have the HSU MBM, it only goes down to 50 Hz but it is exceptionally clean and fast. If it blends well with Maggie’s I’ll use it as such. If not, then I’ll be looking at servo subs, either by Rythmik or a kit by GR Research if I can find a carpenter.
Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: steve k on 19 Apr 2020, 01:28 am
I used a HSU VTF-2MK5 sub with my IIIA's and now with my LRS. HSU provides a high frequency cutoff to cut the bottom of the LRS off at 60Hz and the sub dials in a 60Hz on down for a smooth blend. The sub can also be tuned for deepest  bass extension or higher bass with more volume. I have mine set for 16 Hz with one port open for the occasional pipe organ recording. Otherwise you can keep two ports open for a bottom end of 22 Hz. It's an extremely flexible sub and the techs at HSU are great at working with you to optimize your setup.
Steve
Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: Slapshot on 19 Apr 2020, 08:04 pm
I listen to Acoustical and Vocal driven music 90% of the time. As repremhsible as it may seem the MTV unplugged recordings are some of my favorite tracks to listen to. I’ve never had a dedicated 2 channel system, always AVR HT rigs . I’m going to buy some Maggie’s and will need to add subs. The subs may not do an a lot on most things I listen to, but the other 10% I must admit I occasionally listen to some classic and music from the 80’s & early 90’s. Most people say Maggie’s aren’t great for that, but honestly when I’m listening to AC/DC or Duran Duran ( don’t laugh, once in a blue moon I like to flashback to my high school days) I can handle it not being as great as they are with what I listen to the majority of the time. Nothing is perfect . Anyway...

The subs, I’m committed to running dual subs , but I read where with Maggie’s you need fast bass and not all subs are up to the task. My question is this, do I need to get servo subs like Rythmik, or Subs from REL or would some of the sealed SVS new subs work well? SVS is the most affordable , two of the SB 2000 pro , REL the most expensive, Rythmik in the middle. What do you use, those of you who run subs ? Just would like the opinion of some real people and not the ‘audiophile’ reviewers who listen critically and hear things I don’t think at 50 and been to too many concerts am even capable of hearing now. I’d like to do this right though . I’ve even considered the bass panels & subs... i would value any thoughts or opinions. The Maggie’s will be the .7i ‘s


I'm not an expert on this, but I do know that what sub you need will likely change, depending on which model Maggies you decide to go with. For example, I just recently came across  longtime Maggie owner who bought new 1.7i's, and said they worked beautifully with two REL t5i subs, which are only $599.00 each. As far as SVS subs, I've used them in home theaters and they are high value and performance in that application, but not ideal for two channel. To be entirely fair, I must admit that I have not had any experience with their new,  highly touted SB-3000, though.
Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: Wind Chaser on 19 Apr 2020, 09:14 pm
There's a guy on Audiogon who ditched his subs after he mounted his 1.7i on Mye Stands. He wrote...

before I mounted my 1.7i speakers on MyeStands, I did use a subwoofer. But it was a pain. The setup of the sub to work just right with the Maggies is difficult. But then I mounted the 1.7i pair on MyeStands. The difference is not subtle. Bass is tighter and deeper. Overall definition and focus of the speakers across the range is better... I took the subs off my system and I am now selling them. They just aren’t needed. There is plenty of good bass now. 

YMMV

As for myself, I am going to place an order for these stands ...assuming they are still available with respect to the C-19 shut down. If that works for me, great. If not, I'm inclined to go either with the Audio Kinesis Swarm or a Rythmik servo sub.

Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: AvsFan on 19 Apr 2020, 11:14 pm

I'm not an expert on this, but I do know that what sub you need will likely change, depending on which model Maggies you decide to go with. For example, I just recently came across  longtime Maggie owner who bought new 1.7i's, and said they worked beautifully with two REL t5i subs, which are only $599.00 each. As far as SVS subs, I've used them in home theaters and they are high value and performance in that application, but not ideal for two channel. To be entirely fair, I must admit that I have not had any experience with their new,  highly touted SB-3000, though.

REL's are VERY musical and can be integrated with Maggie's.
And I have used every SVS sub you can imagine. Ron Stimpson lived in my city. Co-founder of SVS and he would let me demo prototypes and everything else under the sun. But like you, they're not made for music. Most recently I had a PC-2000, great for pressurizing the room for movies, slow as molasses for music. I honestly hated it.  Two RSL Speedwoofer 10S's replaced it. Couldn't be happier. VERY musical subs. So anyone looking for GREAT sounding, musical subs for their Maggie's, that are also very affordable at $399 a piece. Give them a try. They're really good.

My dual RSL's are in my theater room, so with that said, for my dedicated two channel room, I decided to go with a dual 8 inch, sealed sub x2, from Louis over at Omega speakers. If you're familiar with his speakers, he builds extremely good, single driver, crossoverless, high efficiency speakers that are VERY fast. Especially his 4.5 inch RS5 drivers. So he builds subs for extreme quickness, fast attack and decay to match with his own speakers. I bought my first one and getting another one later, so will have a total of four 8 inch drivers in my two channel system. Should be a nice combination. Will let you know once I receive them.


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=207480)



(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=207481)

   
Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: AvsFan on 19 Apr 2020, 11:25 pm
There's a guy on Audiogon who ditched his subs after he mounted his 1.7i on Mye Stands. He wrote...

before I mounted my 1.7i speakers on MyeStands, I did use a subwoofer. But it was a pain. The setup of the sub to work just right with the Maggies is difficult. But then I mounted the 1.7i pair on MyeStands. The difference is not subtle. Bass is tighter and deeper. Overall definition and focus of the speakers across the range is better... I took the subs off my system and I am now selling them. They just aren’t needed. There is plenty of good bass now. 

YMMV

As for myself, I am going to place an order for these stands ...assuming they are still available with respect to the C-19 shut down. If that works for me, great. If not, I'm inclined to go either with the Audio Kinesis Swarm or a Rythmik servo sub.




I keep hearing what a MAJOR difference the MYEStands make. I have no doubt that they tighten everything up and improve the sound quality and bass. But Maggie's need help with bass. Period. There are no magical stands that are going to help that much with bass. Still laws of audio science that apply and the 1.7i's only go down to 40hz. My LRS's go down to 50hz. And they need SERIOUS help! There is no weight or dynamic punch to the music. I have certain songs that I like to play just to test out the kick and dynamics of bass on speakers and subs, and they are totally lacking on those tracks.
With that said, the bass that they do produce is like no box speaker I have ever heard. Very musical, articulate, every song sounds different in the bass department. It's amazing bass. Probably some of the best bass I have heard out of a speaker. And that is probably the reason why it is so hard to integrate subwoofers with the Maggie's. At least doing it right and seamless. I have high hopes for those 8's though. Hemp cone, a light cone that can move very fast. I am assuming it will be a perfect match. Will see soon.     
Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: mcgsxr on 19 Apr 2020, 11:39 pm
There all kinds of rooms, and all kinds of ears and all kinds of opinions!  I cannot speak to either the LRS or the 1.7’s, but I did own a set of the 1.6’s with Mye stands.

I really liked them.  Best sound I’ve owned. 

But I needed a sub.  And I found that worked very very well.

Miss them!
Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: AvsFan on 19 Apr 2020, 11:54 pm
There all kinds of rooms, and all kinds of ears and all kinds of opinions!  I cannot speak to either the LRS or the 1.7’s, but I did own a set of the 1.6’s with Mye stands.

I really liked them.  Best sound I’ve owned. 

But I needed a sub.  And I found that worked very very well.

Miss them!

I am getting the MYEStands for sure! I am just not expecting a pair of stands to replace a pair of subwoofers in a system.  :D

And I agree, Maggie's are magical. I will NEVER be selling my Maggie's, well unless it's to upgrade to a larger pair of Maggie's.  :D
Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: Wind Chaser on 20 Apr 2020, 12:54 am
I’m not suggesting for one minute that the LRS doesn’t benefit from a sub, but the comments I was referencing were in conjunction with the 1.7i. I can’t say for sure that I would be happy without a sub in that arrangement, but it does speak to the profound impact the stands had on the bass. :thumb:
Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: AvsFan on 20 Apr 2020, 04:32 am
I’m not suggesting for one minute that the LRS doesn’t benefit from a sub, but the comments I was referencing were in conjunction with the 1.7i. I can’t say for sure that I would be happy without a sub in that arrangement, but it does speak to the profound impact the stands had on the bass. :thumb:

Any speaker will benefit from a sub!  :lol:
Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: SteveFord on 20 Apr 2020, 10:46 am
Play The Who's "Boris The Spider" without a sub and then add a sub to the mix.

Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: Saturn94 on 20 Apr 2020, 02:48 pm
Any speaker will benefit from a sub!  :lol:

This has been my experience.  :thumb:
Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: AvsFan on 22 Apr 2020, 04:35 am
Play The Who's "Boris The Spider" without a sub and then add a sub to the mix.

Thanks for the suggestion. Will give it a try! I am assuming night and day with a sub.
Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: AvsFan on 22 Apr 2020, 04:37 am
This has been my experience.  :thumb:
Yep! Even with speakers that have good bass, subs make it all better!
Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: Slapshot on 24 Apr 2020, 05:45 am
Play The Who's "Boris The Spider" without a sub and then add a sub to the mix.

Excellent suggestion Steve!

Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: SteveFord on 24 Apr 2020, 10:36 am
I had just listened to that the other night when the wife was out (at really high volume).
How do they put it, the combination of 3.7s and SVS subwoofer pressurized the room?

It was a welcome change of pace from her working at home where I hear, "Alexa, play Helen Reddy..."
Dear Lord, take me now...


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=207734)
Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: Wind Chaser on 24 Apr 2020, 01:37 pm
I'm going to explore pairing the .7 with either a pair of the 12" or the 15" of these...

http://aespeakers.com/product-category/dipole/

Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: FireGuy on 24 Apr 2020, 01:58 pm
It was a welcome change of pace from her working at home where I hear, "Alexa, play Helen Reddy..."
Dear Lord, take me now...

This is damn funny... and so true.  Can it be beat?  How about listening to a high school musical (an actual HS Musical not Disney) of 10 years ago (DVD) being played on your kitchen 19" TV.  I have been taken.
Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: SteveFord on 24 Apr 2020, 11:44 pm
I knew my wife had a sister in Florida, she didn't tell me that she had TWO sisters...
Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: thunderbrick on 25 Apr 2020, 02:11 am
I had just listened to that the other night when the wife was out (at really high volume).
How do they put it, the combination of 3.7s and SVS subwoofer pressurized the room?

It was a welcome change of pace from her working at home where I hear, "Alexa, play Helen Reddy..."
Dear Lord, take me now...


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=207734)

You son-of-a-bitch!!!!!!  I laughed at your Helen Reddy quip, and read it out loud to my wife. Now, Alexa and my wife are BOTH singing Helen Reddy songs LOUD!    :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: SteveFord on 26 Apr 2020, 01:17 am
Time to feed Jenny a whole handful of over ripe berries and fight back!
Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: SteveFord on 26 Apr 2020, 01:25 am
Bombs away!!!

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=207853)
Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: Slapshot on 26 Apr 2020, 04:13 am
Play The Who's "Boris The Spider" without a sub and then add a sub to the mix.

Steve, for the record, what subs(s) do you use with your 3.7i's?
Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: SteveFord on 26 Apr 2020, 01:52 pm
It's an old SVS ported one with, I think, a 12" speaker.
Hardly the greatest thing ever but it was $200 or $400 many years ago.
I met the seller in a parking lot and it just barely fit into his Mini so it's pretty sizable.
The volume on it is kept so it just blends in, on most tracks you don't even notice it.

Until Mr. Entwistle happens by, that is.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Entwistle
Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: thunderbrick on 26 Apr 2020, 02:34 pm
Time to feed Jenny a whole handful of over ripe berries and fight back!

It's a stalemate.  She likes Celine Dion, too.   May as well listen to Ned Beatty in "Deliverance..."
Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: SteveFord on 26 Apr 2020, 04:53 pm
Ugh.  You've got problems.
Time to call out the big dogs.
Would you like me to burn a copy for you?

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=207879)

Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: thunderbrick on 28 Apr 2020, 03:06 am
DAMN YOU, STEVE!   

We took a nice ride in the country yesterday, when out of nowhere my wife said "Alexa, play some Helen Reddy," and proceeds to laugh herself silly!   :cuss:

Bombs away!!!

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=207853)
[/center]
Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: SteveFord on 28 Apr 2020, 04:18 am
I like your wife's sense of humor.

That does sound like something out of a revamped Seinfield episode, doesn't it?
Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: AvsFan on 13 May 2020, 11:37 pm
So for two days I have been trying to get these little dual 8 subs to blend with the Magnepan LRS's. I finally gave up. It took all the musicality of the Maggie's away. It just smeared the sound and never sounded right. Made me realize that I really like the way the Maggie's sound all by themselves. I might try it again later but for now it's the Maggie's sans sub.
Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: rockn on 13 May 2020, 11:50 pm
So for two days I have been trying to get these little dual 8 subs to blend with the Magnepan LRS's. I finally gave up. It took all the musicality of the Maggie's away. It just smeared the sound and never sounded right. Made me realize that I really like the way the Maggie's sound all by themselves. I might try it again later but for now it's the Maggie's sans sub.
I’m getting a pair of LRS’s tomorrow. So no way to blend the subs??Maybe try just one sub. I’ll be trying the Rel with mine...fingers crossed 🤞
Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: thunderbrick on 13 May 2020, 11:52 pm
I keep hearing what a MAJOR difference the MYEStands make. I have no doubt that they tighten everything up and improve the sound quality and bass. But Maggie's need help with bass. Period. There are no magical stands that are going to help that much with bass. Still laws of audio science that apply and the 1.7i's only go down to 40hz. My LRS's go down to 50hz. And they need SERIOUS help! There is no weight or dynamic punch to the music. I have certain songs that I like to play just to test out the kick and dynamics of bass on speakers and subs, and they are totally lacking on those tracks.
With that said, the bass that they do produce is like no box speaker I have ever heard. Very musical, articulate, every song sounds different in the bass department. It's amazing bass. Probably some of the best bass I have heard out of a speaker. And that is probably the reason why it is so hard to integrate subwoofers with the Maggie's. At least doing it right and seamless. I have high hopes for those 8's though. Hemp cone, a light cone that can move very fast. I am assuming it will be a perfect match. Will see soon.   

I have the 20.1 Maggies in a big room.  The Mye stands WERE a big improvement; glad I got them. 
Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: WGH on 14 May 2020, 01:13 am
Looking at the Stereophile frequency response graph of the LRS I can see how sub integration could be problematic.

(https://www.stereophile.com/images/719MLRSfig2.jpg)

A fast sub without a port would be a priority adjusted to have little output between 50Hz - 60Hz. I spent an afternoon listening to Maggie the 3.6r plus a REL Gibraltar G2 sub. The G2 crossover was set at 40 Hz (digital readout). The G2 has a 10" driver and is fast enough to keep pace with the ribbon and it goes down to 18Hz, integration was seamless. If the sound gets muddy then the crossover is set too high and/or the woofer cone is still moving when the ribbon has already stopped.

If you hear the sub it is adjusted too loud, a good test is a FM radio male announcer (classic station). The voice should sound the same with the sub on or off.

I think the early Gibraltar G1 sub with the 12" driver might be to slow for the Maggies, the MkII has a faster amp and driver. The G2 is long discontinued but used G1's are always available, they may or may not have the same lead wire design flaw as the G2, I would have to see a photo.
Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: Wind Chaser on 14 May 2020, 02:40 am
I have the 20.1 Maggies in a big room.  The Mye stands WERE a big improvement; glad I got them.

I should be taking delivery of mine any day now.  :thumb:

As for matching a sub / subs with Maggies, OB is the only way to go. I may pursue that after I’ve had a little time with the Mye stands. If I do, the drivers will most likely be by Acoustic Elegance; these are the same drivers Clayton Shaw employs in his higher end models like the X-1 and X-2.
Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: Wind Chaser on 14 May 2020, 02:46 am
Looking at the Stereophile frequency response graph of the LRS I can see how sub integration could be problematic.

(https://www.stereophile.com/images/719MLRSfig2.jpg)

That can’t be right. I haven’t heard the LRS, but I can’t imagine anyone liking them or any loudspeaker that measures like that.
Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: opnly bafld on 14 May 2020, 03:08 am
That can’t be right. I haven’t heard the LRS, but I can’t imagine anyone liking them or any loudspeaker that measures like that.

From the measurements section providing an explanation of this (fig. 2):

"Turning to the LRS's measured frequency response (fig.2), the proximity effect mentioned earlier can be seen. The speaker's farfield output rises as the frequency drops from 500 to 300Hz, while below 300Hz, the response measured in the nearfield rises precipitously. In part, this rise in the midbass will be due to the nearfield measurement technique, which assumes that the drive-units are mounted in a true infinite baffle. But it is also due to the panel's fundamental "drum-skin" resonance, which tends to compensate for the fact that with a dipole speaker the reflections of the speaker's backward-firing sound from the wall behind it will cancel the front-firing sound below a frequency that depends on the panel's size."

JA's conclusion:

"Interpreting the measured performance of a panel loudspeaker such as the Magnepan LRS is far from straightforward. Overall, however, the LRS appears to be capable of well-balanced sound, provided its owner takes care in optimizing such matters as placement and toe-in."


Sometimes it's misleading to just look at the pictures.



Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: Wind Chaser on 14 May 2020, 03:58 am
IOW, the picture is pointless as was the test that produced the picture.  :lol:
Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: Digi-G on 14 May 2020, 12:26 pm
I've had a couple of subs - a Velodyne and currently an SVS model.  Both manufacturers recommended a corner placement, but both subs, in different rooms, produced a boomy, mode-inducing sound that made me want to vomit.  YMMV, but for me corner placement has been the worst possible placement.  I've had much better luck placing the sub midway along a side wall - that just seems to produce a smoother response that I can control.
Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: bladesmith on 14 May 2020, 12:34 pm
I've had a couple of subs - a Velodyne and currently an SVS model.  Both manufacturers recommended a corner placement, but both subs, in different rooms, produced a boomy, mode-inducing sound that made me want to vomit.  YMMV, but for me corner placement has been the worst possible placement.  I've had much better luck placing the sub midway along a side wall - that just seems to produce a smoother response that I can control.

Many people and manufacturers suggest one thing , one placement or another.. due to the testing environment they use at there place of business.
But, the problem with that, is that every home environment is different..  humidity,  room dimensions,  furniture,  open/closed windows,  tight/leaky rooms, even the barometric pressure.  etc, etc..
The tester, or manufacturer has no idea, really.. but, he's got to suggest something that makes since and convinces the buyer he has done his research and is legitimate.. 

Which he is, in only one way.. and that is in his own shop/ manufacturing facility.. :D
Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: AvsFan on 14 May 2020, 07:30 pm
Many people and manufacturers suggest one thing , one placement or another.. due to the testing environment they use at there place of business.
But, the problem with that, is that every home environment is different..  humidity,  room dimensions,  furniture,  open/closed windows,  tight/leaky rooms, even the barometric pressure.  etc, etc..
The tester, or manufacturer has no idea, really.. but, he's got to suggest something that makes since and convinces the buyer he has done his research and is legitimate.. 

Which he is, in only one way.. and that is in his own shop/ manufacturing facility.. :D

All this is so VERY true! I was so frustrated with the sub in this room, I took it downstairs and hooked it up to my living room system and Marantz AVR, it sounds GREAT down there! Not boomy or sloppy at all. Well controlled and blended well with my Canton 702's.

Maybe this room just doesn't like subs. I did pull the sub out and placed it between the Maggie's,sounded a lot better but I don't want a sub out in the middle of my room. 
Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: Tyson on 14 May 2020, 08:15 pm
All this is so VERY true! I was so frustrated with the sub in this room, I took it downstairs and hooked it up to my living room system and Marantz AVR, it sounds GREAT down there! Not boomy or sloppy at all. Well controlled and blended well with my Canton 702's.

Maybe this room just doesn't like subs. I did pull the sub out and placed it between the Maggie's,sounded a lot better but I don't want a sub out in the middle of my room. 


That's why I like OB subs - much easier to use in difficult rooms.
Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: rollo on 14 May 2020, 08:40 pm
  OB sub then call it a day. Although if can use the Swarm system a tough call. Can we Swarm OB  :thumb:

charles
Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: Tyson on 14 May 2020, 08:43 pm
  OB sub then call it a day. Although if can use the Swarm system a tough call. Can we Swarm OB  :thumb:

charles

Definitely do not want to do an OB swarm.  Swarms work by exciting as many room modes as possible, while OB subs excite as few as possible.  Both can produce great bass but they go about it in totally different ways.
Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: WGH on 14 May 2020, 11:44 pm
So for two days I have been trying to get these little dual 8 subs to blend with the Magnepan LRS's. I finally gave up. It took all the musicality of the Maggie's away. It just smeared the sound and never sounded right. Made me realize that I really like the way the Maggie's sound all by themselves. I might try it again later but for now it's the Maggie's sans sub.

Yea, that Stereophile graph could be deceiving, adjusting the speaker location would level out the peak but the roll off above and below 50Hz would still be very steep. Any additional bass above 50Hz would be added to the LRS's and definitely change the character of the sound.

I didn't find any specifications for the Omega DeepHemp 8 regarding crossover frequency or slope, as a comparison the RSL Speedwoofer's crossover frequency is 40-200 Hz with a 12dB slope. Neither of these subs would be appropriate for my speakers, the overlap at 40Hz would be too high resulting in a muddy boomy sound, my sub is set to 32 Hz.

The audio tests at Audiocheck will give you an idea how low and high your subs play. Turn off the LRS's and listen what is coming out of the Omega's.
https://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_index.php (https://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_index.php)
Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: terryakhan on 19 May 2020, 04:14 pm
I use a pair of JL Audio Fathoms at the bottom of my planars, they play really well and most importantly I use a crossover set at 50 hz 6db slope not allowing anything below 50hz to be played thru the planars. Also so tried 80hz as recommended by JL Audio, but preferred the 50 hz setting, since my planars do well to about 50hz.
Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: MontyMo on 6 Dec 2020, 12:09 am
Has anyone heard of LDW (Little Dipole Woofer Model 1). They look very intresting.
I have LRS speakers and I’ve been thinking of pairing them with a sub. THe LDWs are made with the LRS in mind.
I am also considering two REL 5i.

I am very concerned. I don’t want to mess up that beautiful Maggie sound. I have tried a Klipsch SUB 10. It was boomy. Just awful.

I sure would love another octave lower!

Monty

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=172622.0 (https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=172622.0)




(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=217913)
Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: Emil on 11 Dec 2020, 09:37 pm
anyone using an active crossover to filter out low frequencies to your Maggies?

This looks like it will work well but does it degrade the signal going to the maggies?

https://www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/minidsp-2x4-hd

Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: BobM on 12 Dec 2020, 01:42 pm
I do that with my Apogees Emil. It sits between the preamp and the amp and allows me to filter what goes to the amp. I have mine cutting out at 50Hz. Then I run an interconnect from it to my subs (dual stereo) and it has oodles of settings for relative volume, cut-in frequencies, infinite phase and even one for proximity to the wall. Grant also uses to use one but I don't think he does anymore with his fully restored Apogees. Perhaps he would let you borrow his to try out. Its' surprisingly transparent too, which is what you really want.

It's the X2 crossover made by NHT. Every so often one comes up for sale somewhere.

https://www.nhthifi.com/products/11198-x2-electronic-crossover?category_id=1964922-vintage (https://www.nhthifi.com/products/11198-x2-electronic-crossover?category_id=1964922-vintage)
Title: Re: Which Subs
Post by: dcbingaman on 23 Jan 2021, 03:01 am
Has anyone heard of LDW (Little Dipole Woofer Model 1). They look very intresting.
I have LRS speakers and I’ve been thinking of pairing them with a sub. THe LDWs are made with the LRS in mind.
I am also considering two REL 5i.

I am very concerned. I don’t want to mess up that beautiful Maggie sound. I have tried a Klipsch SUB 10. It was boomy. Just awful.

I sure would love another octave lower!

Monty

Hi, Monty.  Carlo Lo Rosa of The Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity webzine is reviewing the LDW Model 1 with the LRS and Magna Risers Airborne stands this month.  Look for his review in the coming months.

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=172622.0 (https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=172622.0)




(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=217913)