Alpha's and RM40's at Gerry's (Turk)

Tyson · « **on:** 24 Jul 2004, 11:31 pm »

I'll make this quick as I don't have a lot of time right now. After listening to both the 40's and the Alpha's at Gerry's place, I feel that for my tastes and preferences the 40's are unquestionably a better speaker. Now, before azryan jumps in here and tries to convince me that I'm wrong, let me lay down what I heard on both speakers, and my reasons for liking the 40's more.

Positives for the Alpha's:
Very large sweetspot, room filling in fact. Very easy to place, and did not suffer from room induced bass modes nearly as much. They are also very precise sounding and dynamic as all get out, probably the most dynamic speaker I've ever heard. That was really, really impressive.

Negatives for the Alphas:
The one that trumps everything else (because it drives me insane) is they were very sibilant. The tweeters dominated the sound too much, cymbals were too forward and loud. They also rolled off pretty steeply past about 12 khz, but they have a spike right before that that makes the lower end portion of the cymbals and other high frequency instruments way too in your face. But, on the other hand, the roll off up top meant that cymbals never really "shimmered" like they should, and decayed much too quickly. Combine their brash sound with their very dynamic and in your face presentation, and they just did not catch subtelties in the music, or play subtle music very well. When the Cowboy Junkies "Trinity Sessions" CD makes you wince, you know something is wrong.

Positives for the 40's:
Much more even and balanced sound, smoother and integrated. Cymbals shimmered and decayed like no tomorrow. Mids had a delicacy and transparency that were very enticing. Unlike the Alpha's, they did NOT need a sub to give deep bass (although we had a VMPS Larger in the loop for both speakers most of the time). There was just and ease, coherency, and rightness to the sound of the 40's that the Alpha's just didn't match. IMO, the 40's are clearly a step or 2 up from the Alpha's.

Negatives for the 40's:
Much more difficult to place than the Alpha's, particularly in a "difficult" room like Gerry has. Moving them around a bit and adjusting their tuning let them sound pretty good in his setup, but not as good as I know they can sound. So, they take a lot longer to dial in and to get placed properly. The 40's also have a "much" narrower sweetspot than the Alpha's. If you angle them to point at the listner, it's only 1 person wide. If you cross them in front of the listener, they are about 3 feet wide for the sweet spot.

So, there you have it, I definitely prefered the 40's.

zybar · « **Reply #1 on:** 25 Jul 2004, 12:00 am »

Thanks Tyson.

Just got off the phone with Sean (Sunshinedawg) and he pretty much said the same thing. One thing that shocked him a bit was how different thr two speakers sounded.

So that people don't get the wrong idea, Sean owns neither VMPS or GR Research speakers (he has my old Coincident Super Conquests) and has no axe to grind. I won't say paraphrase him anymore and will let him write up his impressions later.

Wish I could have been there - sounds like it was a great and informative listening session. Can't wait to see some pics.

George

ekovalsky · « **Reply #2 on:** 25 Jul 2004, 12:40 am »

Thanks for the brief report, wish I could have been there. Were the Omegarray or Incredarray added to the frey I may have made the journey to Colorado! It would have been a nice break from the heat too, the last two weeks here in Arizona have been brutal.

I haven't had the opportunity to hear the RM-40 and Alpha LS at the same time with the same equipment in the same room. But, after my brief listen to the Alpha LS, I decided to sell the RM-40's I owned at the time and purchase the RM-X

The top of the line BCSE RM-40 (with MLS cabinet, FST, & TRT cap upgrades), with a rather standard VMPS dealer discount, costs about $1,000 less than an assembled Alpha LS with MLS cabinets.

G-R does sell kits for much less. Personally, I don't think the time needed to build the cabinets and the resulting cosmetic outcome would make up for the savings, but if you have the time and required woodworking skills and will be pleased with the end result then more power to you. VMPS of course sells kits too, although I seem to remember that the cost savings over assembled isn't too great if you purchase through a dealer. And knowing the quality of the MLS or Dorne Dibble cabinets, I couldn't settle for any less.

sunshinedawg · « **Reply #3 on:** 25 Jul 2004, 03:24 am »

I want to thank Turk for being such a great host. The BBQ was top notch. Tyson, the scotch (Dalmore 12) was excellent.

I think Tyson summed things up pretty well. The Alphas are very dynamic but a little too agressive for me. They have a huge sweet spot. Just about everywhere I sat they sounded good. The 40's have an extremely narrow sweet spot, but when you are in it, the sound is more natural and pleasing.

There was a real serious bass problem in the room that made comparisons a little hard. Bass traps and sound treatments riddled the room but still did not solve the problem. There was an area right behind the sweet spot that made me get up and move when the 40's were playing. Yet, along the back wall, they sounded great. The Alphas didn't have as much trouble with the bass issues.

If I had both sets of speakers, I would use the alphas for HT because of the large sweet spot/upfront sound and the 40's for two channel where they would be dialed in for that one man sweet spot.

Tyson · « **Reply #4 on:** 25 Jul 2004, 04:41 am »

I don't have an axe to grind either, I actually really went in expecting to like the Alpha's because I'm a fan of big speakers in general and line arrays in particular. I've heard a competing line array from another company that I liked every bit as much as the 40's, and better in some areas (Excelarrays). I think the Alpha's could be a better sounding speaker if the "tweeter" array was used as a midrange array, and a "real" ribbon tweeter (like the Excelarray has" was used to cover the top end. That might really be something great.

And azryan, my last post was definitely a lighthearted joke, please don't take it seriously or like a slam. All in good fun man

azryan · « **Reply #5 on:** 25 Jul 2004, 06:03 am »

Hey Tyson,

Well I get ‘called out’ more than once here... so I gotta post right? heh

I don’t mind which speaker you guys liked. I know you’re a huge fan of your own RM-40's for a looong time now so finding you still think it’s better seems logical to me.

Seriously, no flame starting intended, but have you considered a combing response dip in the upper neo panel to super tweeter x-over in the 40's as a possibility for the diff. in that range vs. how the Alpha’s sound in that range?

The Alphas measure pretty flat in a large modestly treated room and this seems to be the range you’re talking about?

That spike then roll off you mentioned... did you measure that in that room?

You added,

“-I think the Alpha's could be a better sounding speaker if the "tweeter" array was used as a midrange array, and a "real" ribbon tweeter (like the Excelarray has" was used to cover the top end.-“

IMO playing those neos down that low would kill the dynamics that impressed you and they’re just not designed to play that low like the vmps neo are.
Very diff. Neo planar drivers as I’ve said several times to people wanting to treat the two like they’re meant for the same applications.

I’m not sure what you mean by quote “real” ribbon but I own that 45" Newform ‘quasi-ribbon’ you mentioned and IMO it’s not better than the Alpha’s Neo 8 line (both playing basically the exact same broad tweeter range), but you found that ribbon to be too bright if I remember and it also measures very flat to 20kHz.

It’s a great ribbon IMO too but sounds a little harsh when pushed loud vs. the Alpha line. I bit airier but grainer, and higher distortion (just less realistic) I believe from lower effi. and looser control of a ribbon vs. a fully clamped push/pull planar.

I can’t in any way argue with someone’s plain and simple preference. I just wonder if it’s related to accuracy of what the speakers are both being sent?

On bass depth you said -

“-Unlike the Alpha's, they did NOT need a sub to give deep bass (although we had a VMPS Larger in the loop for both speakers most of the time).-“

I find the Alphas to be flat to about 25Hz in my large room -something several others have found in assorted systems. Having 4 15" subs tuned to 16Hz helps me compare the depth in this range too and I almost never find the subs to add any depth to music with strong deep bass.

Did you find a higher roll off than ~25Hz?

Are you talking about possibly upper bass that ‘turk’ has balanced out with the added mid-bass management element to the Alpha x-over?

‘sunshinedawg’ saying “-there was a real serious bass problem in the room-“ seems like more the issue?

I don’t find the Alphas brash or in your face in my room with that same XR45 you and ‘sunshinedawg’ have but then I’ve called other speakers bland and lifeless so maybe simply a matter of taste.

They’re not ‘forward’ in my room, but they sure aren’t dull or warm in the treble.
I’m not sure if that’s part of what you were finding in ‘turk’s room?

If it’s just preference then anyone would just have to hear for themselves I guess, but if it can be shown that one is actually outputting the incoming signal more accurately I’d think that’d lay blame more on the recordings and personal taste of front end gear.

The treble could get a lot more ragged on the Alphas than the 40's from the wall reflections due to the line output.
Did you guys have anything on the side reflections?

I’m not saying that’s for sure the cure and then everything would have been perfect for you, but nicely cloth covered compressed fiberglass absorbing the side reflections would keep that from mixing back into the main wave.

As for cost I don’t know what a pair of maxed out 40's w/ the works in upgrades and MLS cabinets cost minus dealer discounts, etc... but the Alpha kit is ~$2K and MLS cabinets are a little over $2K depending on the veneer chosen.

Are maxed out 40's w/ MLS cabinets really ~$1K less at about $3K?

IMO anyone can spend one day it’d take to put the drivers in and x-over together rather than need to spend an extra grand or whatever GR charges for a fully 100% completed set. Seriously one free weekend is all it’d take.

I totally understand people not wanting to or being able to build full Alpha cabinets from scratch so even though it’s by far cheaper I know it’s just not reasonable for probably most people.

Sticky issue. Don’t want to heat it up. Glad you guys had fun.

JoshK · « **Reply #6 on:** 25 Jul 2004, 07:02 am »

I don't want to pick a fight, or start anything but I have a question with regards to flat response reported by the Alphas. Now I am no expert and don't claim to be but I have read up a little on line arrays based on the white paper written on the subject which seems to be the 'bible' of line array theory. Based on what that has suggested, together with quite a few designers comments and a slew of DIY'er with measurement equipment I really find the statement that the Neo8's peaked output in the range in question to be able to be combed flat. According to the white paper the comb effect from a ribbon or planar is minimal (IIRC within 3 db, and the Neo8 has much more than 3db peak). The two just seem to be in opposition. Now maybe I am missing something here, but if not I really question whether the alphas have a flat response in the highs as suggested.

I have seen a number of DIYers use the BG planar in a line array and all of them I have seen used a notch filter for the peak because of measured peak. None of them mentioned anything about it be combed away, and I know at least a couple know how to measure appropriately.

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #7 on:** 25 Jul 2004, 07:29 am »

Tyson mentioned the Cowboy Junkies cd. What other music did you use in this listening session ? Thanks !!

brad b · « **Reply #8 on:** 25 Jul 2004, 12:08 pm »

azryan: I own the Diluceo's and am a big fan, but I would say that the score yesterday was Room-2, Speakers-1. The room is very tough. I am not an electronics guy to the max, but Wayne (Bolder) took measurements of both speakers, as well as his little horn loaded guys with a 3.5" speaker putting out gobs of pretty decent sound. The Alphas measured hot around 10000 or 11000 hz, which created a little more output than I am used to. Hence the symbol comment. On the other hand, I have heard the 40's more than a couple of times, and they had a bass issue that we could not rectify in the time allowed. Rest assured, the electronics were great, and we used 4 or 5 bass traps, 4 mini traps, at least 2 side wall absorbers, 8th nerve corner and transistion treatments, which helped, but did not solve the room issues.

I think Jerry can keep playing with these speakers and enjoy the strengths of each one. I suspect he can get the Alphas to flatten out around 10, and dial the 40's in too. Nothing wrong with 2 great speakers in the house. As for me, I'm a monitor guy, and could never come close to achieving the dynamics that either of these speakers are capable of.

We listened to Rebecca Pigeon, Classical cuts from Tyson, a very cool combo CD that had Rap and Opera, a Chesky sampler, Eva Cassidy, and a couple of others I cannot remember.

The real winner of the day was Jerry for sharing his house, and hospitality, as well as the group that brought an open mind. As for me, I can't wait to hear these speakers again this fall at the Big Denver Audio Blowout in the Tech. Center.
Brad

zybar · « **Reply #9 on:** 25 Jul 2004, 01:08 pm »

AZRYAN,

In terms of comparing price...

Here is what is listed on Danny's website:

Quote

If assembling a large pair of speakers is not for you and you would like them ready to play when they arrive then that can be arranged as well. Get a fully assembled pair in Rosewood or Walnut, lined with Blackhole 5, and using heavy SCI binding posts, ready to play for $5,890. a pair. This does not include shipping. Call to order completed speakers.

This is also what is listed under the MLS cabinets:

Quote

Rosewood cabinets are only $2,600. for the pair if ordered with a kit..

Fully assembled pairs in Roswood are $5,890. a pair. Walnut is the same price.

Fully assembled pairs are also completely lined with Blackhole 5, and the enclosures are all 1.5" thick.

This means that with both pairs fully assembled, the loaded RM 40's are around $1000 cheaper.

Now if you go kit + MLS cabinets, the Alphas' are around $4600. This makes them right around the price for a fully assembled pair of RM 40's.

The only time the Alphas are much less than the 40's is if you buy them as a kit only and build your own cabinets. Here you can save $1500-2000 over a fully built pair of RM 40's. I am not positive of what the price is for the fully loaded RM 40 kit.

None of this has anything to do with how the speakers sound or which is better. I just wanted to make sure people have the correct facts and not some ballpark figures.

George

BradJudy · « **Reply #10 on:** 25 Jul 2004, 03:44 pm »

This was the first time I heard either speaker, but was late to the event and didn't hear as much as everyone else. I think Brad did an excellent job summing things up.

I think the Alphas had a lot going for them and if the sibilance was room related, then I'm sure they would sound great in a different room. The wide listening area was very nice (I'm not a critical listener who likes to confine himself to a sweet spot - no offense to those who are).

The RM40s sounded much more even in the room, although the bass would need more dialing in as mentioned.

A big thanks to Jerry for having me in his home and providing food.

For the record (no pun intended) here are the three tracks I played (all redbook):

'Redencion' - Orlando Cachaito Lopez - Cachaito
'Shady Green Pastures' - ARC Choir - Mapleshade Sampler
'Prince Igor' - Warren G and Sissel - Rhapsody Overture (note for Jerry - those first few notes were penned in 1869

)

ekovalsky · « **Reply #11 on:** 25 Jul 2004, 05:15 pm »

from John Casler's sticky in the VMPS forum

$4199 retail base RM-40
$1999 BCSE package (includes MLS cabinet, TRT, FST, Analysis Plus wire)
-------
$6198

figure a typical "courtesy" discount around 20% from a mail order dealer. Buyer's cost approximately $4958 + ship

Per the GR Research web site, $5890 + ship for assembled Alpha LS with MLS cabinet. I'm not aware of any "courtesy" discounts from a dealer network

Net difference $932 in favor of "loaded" VMPS RM-40 versus GR Alpha LS. This is an apples-to-apples comparison with braced MLS cabinets for both speakers, and all available options on the VMPS. If there are extra cost options for the Alpha LS I didn't include them here.

A few comments are warranted here:

Tyson · « **Reply #12 on:** 25 Jul 2004, 05:23 pm »

The 40's sounded smoother in the treble, the Alpha's sounded smoother in the bass (that's how they measured too). The room was heavily treated, plus we were using a tubed output CD player, a tubed preamp, and a pair of Parasound JC-1 monoblocks. If the Alpha's did not sound smooth in the mids and treble, it is certainly not because of the room or upstream equipment.

By a "real" ribbon, I meant something that would extend output to 20khz. You wouldn't even have to change much on the Alpha's, just plop a tall line ribbon next to the BG array and set the crossover at 10hz. The crossover could take care of that bump in the low/mid treble, and the line tweeter would give output to 20khz at least (and maybe furter, although I doubt anyone could hear it, or that it would matter much).

And lest anyone think I'm "picking on" GR Research, let me say that I've heard the Diluceo's at Brads and thought they were really excellent, in fact they are my primary rec in their price range for people looking for good speakers.

I've heard the Newform Ribbon used in the Excelarrays at Gary's. The first time I heard them they were too bright, but it was a relatively untreated room. Later with the room heavily treated, they sounded great, and as I've said before I'd put them at least on par with my 40's. They are really excellent speakers.

Anyway, I thought the Alpha's had a lot of potential, but in there current config they are just not for me. The sibilant mids, the spike at 10 khz and the rapid roll off above 12 khz all taken together make the speaker not something I would be able to live with. But I have to say that the Alpha's were very transparent, extremely dynamic, and very easy to get good bass out of even in a "problem" room, all of which was very impressive. If the issues I had with the mids/highs could be addressed, then the Alpha's would be world class speakers. As always, JMHO and YMMV.

Turk · « **Reply #13 on:** 25 Jul 2004, 07:39 pm »

Well, I for one had a good time and my thanks to all the guys for the "than yous", my pleasure, and special thanks to Wayne and Mike for the measurements and set up help and Mike for picking up the food. I missed the VMPS measurements( someone had to answer the door and set out the food).

I will provide a few observations of my own. And yes, I agree with Tyson the electronics are damn good so don't point a finger at the gear or cables for whatever you heard.

The sorta-new room sucks from an accoustical standpoint

and always has, except this time I threw a few grand at treatment(you should hear the bastard w/o the treatment). Anyway, it helps. In fact, had the food not arrived I am sure with all the traps set out we could have had raccoon!

Alphas: Magnificent cabinets. Tight controlled, bass(I did not find it lacking) Good imaging and a wide soundstage. The best big speaker dynamics I have heard at the price. Wonderful speed. I believe the crossover point from ribbon to cone is extremely well executed and unlike Tyson, did not find violins revealing of the crossover point. They are fairly easy to place, but not that easy. The guys forgot that Mike and had spent about 4 hours the night before getting decent sound. I believe the Alphas are slightly more transparent than the 40's or, if you are Tyson, sibilant. For me the jury is out for the moment on that issue for 2 reasons; additional tunning of the room and the Amperex 7602 tubes in the Exemplar/Denon are incredibly detailed, maybe in this set up a bit etched. I have GE 6414s that are smoother. We will see. As for detail, the Alphas are excellent, if on occassion slightly forward, perhaps the great dynamics play into this. I also felt at times that the Alphas seemed a bit thin and without the weight I like. This is an extreme criticism as it was very minor. With the sweet spot there is no comparison-you can move six inches and get your head out of the vise with the Alphas; they sound quite good standing up or sitting on the floor.

Other complaint with the Alphas and I feel stongly about this one and agree with the others is the high frequency response in the room rolls off and takes sparkle and shimmer from things like symbols.

RM40's: Excellent sound stage in the sweetspot. Very smooth and no trace of sibilance. Images have better weight(no I don't mean they are larger, they are, a bit) and density. They do seem less transparent or depending on your view, sibilant. High frequency extension is better than the Alphas. More sparkle, more shimmer. Decay is better and more air around instruments and voices. Fine image density. Downside to me was the crossover point from midrange ribbons to woofers. I really noticed this in a side by side comparison.l The result was a coloration that I did not like in the upper bass. Crossover point problem? I don't know enough to answer that. The 40's are harder to set up but do have tunning advantages. They are not as fast on their feet as the Alphas and the sweet spot is small. Disappears with very little movement.

Well that's my 2 cents. I like both speakers a great deal and despise my room. Perhaps both speakers deserve a better accoustical setting. At this point I have tempered my initial enthusiasim, but I am still leaning ever so slightly toward the Alphas.

zybar · « **Reply #14 on:** 25 Jul 2004, 08:22 pm »

Turk,

Sounds like you had a great gathering.

What bass traps are you using?

BTW, when are you moving?

George

sunshinedawg · « **Reply #15 on:** 25 Jul 2004, 08:32 pm »

He is using Realtraps.

Tyson · « **Reply #16 on:** 25 Jul 2004, 08:37 pm »

Yes, the 40's did not sound as good as they could have, simply because the setup and tuning was "quick and dirty". If I'd had about 3 hours to play with them, they would have sounded quite a bit better, particularly the mid bass hump that was obscuring a bit of clarity in the midrange.

I do have a pretty good understanding of the different variables that go in to making the 40's sound good in a particular room.

But even with that, it would still take me several hours to really "dial them in". For a new person (and I went through this w/mine initially), it can take several weeks of experimenting to understand how to get them dialed in. This is good and bad in that the 40's can be made to sound good in most rooms (good), but it will take a lot of time and experimentation in most cases (bad).

Plus, I had them dialed in to the type of sound "I" like, which is smooth and a tiny bit forgiving. They can be made to sound more analytical quite easily, but I was already a bit fatigued after listening to the Alpha's at high volumes.

Remember, these are simply my impressions, and my preferences. I just couldn't listen to the Alpha's more than 20 minutes of having Margo Timmons (of the cowboy junkies) and loud volumes singing "SSSSweet Jane, SSSSSweet SSSSSweet Jane". The Eva Cassidy track was even worse. Seriously, I was wincing on every sibilant. On the other hand, the 40's were a lot smoother and didn't emphasize sibilants "at all". But the are also a more delicate sounding speaker overall, so I can see how someone would not like that type of sound as much. But for me it was a balm to my ears.

One other observations, both speakers are similar in that neither one really show's its full potential at low volumes. Both of them seem to only "wake up" when you turn the volume up a bit. The 40's specifically sound a little veiled at low volume (mids and highs don't sparkle quite like they can), and the Alpha's seem thin in the mids and bass until you turn them up (the low and mid treble tend to dominate a bit too much at low volume).

The 40's were initially angled to cross just in front of the sweet spot, but later we moved the couch forward & they were pointed right at the sweet spot.

Anyway, the final analysis, the 40's were mainly affected by that mid-bass hump, which had the unfortunate side effect of clouding up the mids a bit. This could be fixed, but it would take longer than the 10 minutes I took to tune them and position them.

I also think that 6 Alpha's in a surround sound HT setup would be abso-friggin-lutely amazing sounding, their strenths dovetail perfectly with what I feel good HT should be, specifically dynamics and transparency.

I did want to say thank you very much to Gerry for having me over and also for the GREAT BBQ. Best ribs I've had since I lived in Texas.

zybar · « **Reply #17 on:** 25 Jul 2004, 08:40 pm »

Turk,

Did anybody take pictures?

Do you have a single Larger sub or a pair?

If you can hear the crossover, how about going active and disabling the bass crossover?

George

Turk · « **Reply #18 on:** 25 Jul 2004, 08:46 pm »

Zybar,

Well, if I am lucky, in about 8months I will leave this nice home with a perfect listening room that is forever off limits as dictated by you-know-who, to find a home with a dedicted listening room that you-know-who will be happy to turn me loose in with my gear. As for the traps, I have 8 Minitraps from Realtraps and 4 Jon Risch diy 18" diameter by 48" tall corner traps. I also have 3-2" thick by 5'' tall by 3' wide acoustical panels and 4 Microtraps by Realtraps. Pathetic isn't it?

Turk · « **Reply #19 on:** 25 Jul 2004, 08:49 pm »

Ok, that would be 5 FEET, not 5 inches.

Don't want anyone to think I have stumbled upon an audio trick.