[brucek]

i dont want a splitter, because its all about the extra voltage swing, which is gone when splt.

Splitting a signal in a high impedance connection doesn't effect the voltage swing.

brucek

[Marius]

Hi Brucek,

really? I believe James told me the total amount of line level was divided over the two when split 
second to that, apparently it is rather difficult to maintain the balanced construction with a splitter-cable. Difficult enough to cost about 460 dollar....
All the more reason I started looking for a switcher, instead of a splitter.

Cheers!
Marius

Splitting a signal in a high impedance connection doesn't effect the voltage swing.

brucek

[brucek]

I believe James told me the total amount of line level was divided over the two when split 

Splitting a signal from a low impedance source to two high impedance sources divides the impedance that the source sees - not the voltage. It's not a power connection - negligible current is being drawn, so the voltage is maintained.

The only difficulty in producing a balanced splitter is soldering two wires on a pin rather than one. I have no doubt they overcharge for it though. I can't imagine a splitter box would be less difficult or expensive to create.

brucek

[Vipers]

Hi Marius,

Glad to hear that you are actually getting some quality time with your BHA-1 and HD800's, I've still got my HD800's running round the clock to run them in but hopefully tonight I'll get a chance to have a real listen.

Like you I found balanced is the only way to go with the BHA-1, it seems to make a pretty significant step up in overall quality, as does most Bryston kit to be honest, I'm lucky as I'll be running a separate BHA-1/BDA-1/BDP-1 rig so the whole connection issue isn't really a problem, but I've had a couple of customers now, and I'm sure this is going to be a common problem, one with a BP26 and another with a SP3 who want to to use balanced into their pre and into the BHA-1 direct from the BDA-1.

One of my customers has been talking to a guy who we have both used for Van Damme cables in the past and he has recommended the below splitter box, would this be a suitable solution James without degrading the signal from the BDA-1 as I think we all need to find a solution to this, here is also a link to more information with a manual with wiring diagram, cost is around £100 with gold plated sockets so not too bad really, it certianly looks the part, it's just missing a Bryston badge on the front

http://monacor.co.uk/products/prosound-mixermisc/vnr/251680/




 

[Marius]

Thanks Paul,

Great input, let's compare those with the Goldpoint ones: http://www.goldpt.com/sw2x.html


Goldpoints are a bit more costly, for that at least you get stereo channels....
Marius

Hi Marius,

Glad to hear that you are actually getting some quality time with your BHA-1 and HD800's, I've still got my HD800's running round the clock to run them in but hopefully tonight I'll get a chance to have a real listen.

Like you I found balanced is the only way to go with the BHA-1, it seems to make a pretty significant step up in overall quality, as does most Bryston kit to be honest, I'm lucky as I'll be running a separate BHA-1/BDA-1/BDP-1 rig so the whole connection issue isn't really a problem, but I've had a couple of customers now, and I'm sure this is going to be a common problem, one with a BP26 and another with a SP3 who want to to use balanced into their pre and into the BHA-1 direct from the BDA-1.

One of my customers has been talking to a guy who we have both used for Van Damme cables in the past and he has recommended the below splitter box, would this be a suitable solution James without degrading the signal from the BDA-1 as I think we all need to find a solution to this, here is also a link to more information with a manual with wiring diagram, cost is around £100 with gold plated sockets so not too bad really, it certianly looks the part, it's just missing a Bryston badge on the front

http://monacor.co.uk/products/prosound-mixermisc/vnr/251680/

[srb]

Goldpoints are a bit more costly, for that at lest you get stereo channels....

And 1/4" anodized front and rear panels.  No Bryston engraving, but if you want looks also .....
The Goldpoint stuff is expensive, but I don't think you'll find any better built switchers and attenuators.
 
Steve

[brucek]

....second to that, apparently it is rather difficult to maintain the balanced construction with a splitter-cable. Difficult enough to cost about 460 dollar....

A quick look online shows a 6 foot XLR splitter cable from BlueJeans cables is about $30.00 to $40.00, using Beldon 1800F or Beldon 1508A and Neutrik gold plated connectors.

BlueJean XLR splitter

brucek

[Marius]

HI Brucek,

Please let me ask you to comment on these remarks made on another forum http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?9605-balanced-cable-splitter:

"You will have no problem with a single hardwired spilt. The only issue maybe and that is a very very small maybe if by chance the preamp outputs and the crossover inputs were transformer coupled, again that is A very very very small chance."

How, in your opinion, would this apply to splitting a BDA1 signal in to the BHA1 and the BP26?

"Depending upon what you are interconneting, you might develop a loading (impedance) differential between the legs, but that is not a common result, so forge ahead. If there is a loading difference, it merely results in a gain difference - not big, but it can happen. If the loads are the same, this does not occur, particularly if you are doing the same thing to both L and R. "

Again, please reflect on the Bryston situation if you can? I wouldn't want the gain difference, as said, one of the reasons I'd opt for the switcher.

Thanks a lot ,
Marius

btw, if this splitting/switching hijacks the forum subject too much, i apologize, maybe we can take this to a separate thread.

Splitting a signal from a low impedance source to two high impedance sources divides the impedance that the source sees - not the voltage. It's not a power connection - negligible current is being drawn, so the voltage is maintained.

The only difficulty in producing a balanced splitter is soldering two wires on a pin rather than one. I have no doubt they overcharge for it though. I can't imagine a splitter box would be less difficult or expensive to create.

brucek

[brucek]

"You will have no problem with a single hardwired spilt. The only issue maybe and that is a very very small maybe if by chance the preamp outputs and the crossover inputs were transformer coupled, again that is A very very very small chance."

How, in your opinion, would this apply to splitting a BDA1 signal in to the BHA1 and the BP26?

In your situation you're proposing a simple hardwired splitter. No problem.

"Depending upon what you are interconneting, you might develop a loading (impedance) differential between the legs, but that is not a common result, so forge ahead. If there is a loading difference, it merely results in a gain difference - not big, but it can happen. If the loads are the same, this does not occur, particularly if you are doing the same thing to both L and R. "

Again, please reflect on the Bryston situation if you can? I wouldn't want the gain difference, as said, one of the reasons I'd opt for the switcher.

With regard to common mode rejection, it relies on exact adherence to matching impedance on both the positive and negative signal paths, and I believe Bryston equipment takes care of that. Your source and two loads are all Bryston, so I can't see where your hookup would result in a mismatch there.

With regard to a gain differential, it doesn't make much sense. I don't know any device that has different input impedance on each channel? So if the inference is that the voltage arriving at the left channel of one device would be different than the left channel of the other device - it can't occur, they're in parallel, so they must be identical.

brucek

[Marius]

Great,
Thank you Brucek. You've cleared up a lot of uncertainty.
I guess at least it it worth the try, and see what happens, found some nice manufactured cables for a modest price.
regarding the gain differential: I was lead to believe they meant the difference in volume with or without the splitter on the same line, and not a volume difference between both lines with the splitter. I do want the extra volume the balanced lines give me compared to the rca's, so if splitting will result in a lower volume, again that would be reason for me to opt for the switcher.

Cheers!
Marius

In your situation you're proposing a simple hardwired splitter. No problem.

With regard to common mode rejection, it relies on exact adherence to matching impedance on both the positive and negative signal paths, and I believe Bryston equipment takes care of that. Your source and two loads are all Bryston, so I can't see where your hookup would result in a mismatch there.

With regard to a gain differential, it doesn't make much sense. I don't know any device that has different input impedance on each channel? So if the inference is that the voltage arriving at the left channel of one device would be different than the left channel of the other device - it can't occur, they're in parallel, so they must be identical.

brucek

[Joker]

HI Brucek,

Please let me ask you to comment on these remarks made on another forum http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?9605-balanced-cable-splitter:

"You will have no problem with a single hardwired spilt. The only issue maybe and that is a very very small maybe if by chance the preamp outputs and the crossover inputs were transformer coupled, again that is A very very very small chance."

How, in your opinion, would this apply to splitting a BDA1 signal in to the BHA1 and the BP26?

"Depending upon what you are interconneting, you might develop a loading (impedance) differential between the legs, but that is not a common result, so forge ahead. If there is a loading difference, it merely results in a gain difference - not big, but it can happen. If the loads are the same, this does not occur, particularly if you are doing the same thing to both L and R. "

Again, please reflect on the Bryston situation if you can? I wouldn't want the gain difference, as said, one of the reasons I'd opt for the switcher.

Thanks a lot ,
Marius

btw, if this splitting/switching hijacks the forum subject too much, i apologize, maybe we can take this to a separate thread.

Hi Marius,

Here's a pic of my setup. I run the BDP to the BDA balanced XLR, dito from the BDA to the GamuT DI150. From there RCA to the BHA using Tape Out.



I had the GamuT folks look at the BHA options RCA vs XLR and they thought that if you run a short RCA connection with a solid cable - I opted for a 1m Audioquest Columbia - you will also get excellent performance. Provided you use balanced for the HD800 cord itself. Since that is 3m vs. only the short amp to BHA connect and thus the balanced headphone cable will have a far bigger impact. Did you try that already?

Have done only little listening so far and will report more details, but sound is great, big soundstage in both depth and width (beyond the drivers so to speak), great detail. All "out of the box" already. And, excellent comfort on my head!

While I will try some balanced between the BDA and the BHA later on maybe, when I have time over the Christmas period perhaps  and when everything is run in, I feel that inserting some switches or splitters into the chain can't make the chain stronger but rather weaker? So would try the headphone connection balanced first and then see. I think even James goes RCA from the amp to the BHA. And btw, if I have the BHA volume control between 9-10 o'clock using the low gain setting, it's almost too loud to bear already ... a lot of punch there!

[Marius]

wow thank you Joker,
beautiful it is.
Yes I will try the balanced hd800 cable when it arrives. Take your advice to wait for other insertions into the system.

Must say that the difference between rca and balanced on the BHA was quite substantial to my ears, so hope to keep that. Problem is i also want to keep it balanced to my BP26....at least for now, maybe the balanced hd800 cable will take away my worries.

Agree that the volume isn't the issue, Rca is indeed loud enough, but I felt other soundqualities came more to my ears in the balanced connection.

Thanks,
Marius

ps your columbia wont do me any good moneywise.....  http://www.hifisupply.nl/index.php?item=audioquest-columbia-interconnect-vanaf-0_5m--per-paar&action=article&group_id=10000141&aid=5713&lang=NL

same store: this might be an option too, nice aluminium, same typical Bryston switch, only wrong logo.... http://www.hifisupply.nl/index.php?item=dodocus-ubox2x-xlr-audioschakelaar--per-stuk&action=article&group_id=10000187&aid=29184&lang=NL

Hi Marius,

Here's a pic of my setup. I run the BDP to the BDA balanced XLR, dito from the BDA to the GamuT DI150. From there RCA to the BHA using Tape Out.



I had the GamuT folks look at the BHA options RCA vs XLR and they thought that if you run a short RCA connection with a solid cable - I opted for a 1m Audioquest Columbia - you will also get excellent performance. Provided you use balanced for the HD800 cord itself. Since that is 3m vs. only the short amp to BHA connect and thus the balanced headphone cable will have a far bigger impact. Did you try that already?

Have done only little listening so far and will report more details, but sound is great, big soundstage in both depth and width (beyond the drivers so to speak), great detail. All "out of the box" already. And, excellent comfort on my head!

While I will try some balanced between the BDA and the BHA later on maybe, when I have time over the Christmas period perhaps  and when everything is run in, I feel that inserting some switches or splitters into the chain can't make the chain stronger but rather weaker? So would try the headphone connection balanced first and then see. I think even James goes RCA from the amp to the BHA. And btw, if I have the BHA volume control between 9-10 o'clock using the low gain setting, it's almost too loud to bear already ... a lot of punch there!

[Vipers]

Looks like we may be getting somewhere on the whole splitting from the BDA-1 is concerned, let us know how you get on Marius, as like you the extra headroom balanced gives is one of the real appeals of staying balanced throughout.

What is the general consensus regarding balanced from the headphones to the BHA-1 as I'm just about to approach someone to make some balanced cables up for my HD800's and LCD2's, I take it is better to use the separate left + right balanced outputs compared to the stereo output?

[zeiter]

What is the general consensus regarding balanced from the headphones to the BHA-1 as I'm just about to approach someone to make some balanced cables up for my HD800's and LCD2's, I take it is better to use the separate left + right balanced outputs compared to the stereo output?

Vipers, I had the same dilemma, but every forum I went to, I found that from an Audio point of view,  left + right and stereo  are 100% identical. I asked Bryston technical, and they replied same thing. So I went with a 4pin stereo for convenience. I don't know if besides audio, maybe I'm missing some other advantage not having the dual 3pin ?

[Marius]

I will Paul,

trying to figure out which option sounds best (for the best price...)

a simple cable-splitter http://www.tbl-audio.nl/cables/index.php?item=xlr-y-kabel-_-splitter-_1x-female--_-2x-male_-zwart&action=article&group_id=27&aid=212&lang=NL or http://www.thomann.de/nl/cae_90074_yaudiosplittkabel.htm
a hefty input switcher Goldpoint http://www.goldpt.com/sw2x.html
the cheaper Monacor's http://monacor.co.uk/products/prosound-mixermisc/vnr/251680/
or the transformer isolated mic splitters, in line level version
http://whirlwindusa.com/catalog/snakes-splitters-and-multiwiring-systems/splitters/sp1x2-and-sp1x3-mic-splitters

if only Bryston had made a second balance out or a balanced passthrough ..... we could have integrated the BHA1 in our balanced systems easily 

anyhow, this is an interesting read on why and how to use splitters: http://whirlwindusa.com/support/tech-articles/microphone-splitters/

Marius

Looks like we may be getting somewhere on the whole splitting from the BDA-1 is concerned, let us know how you get on Marius, as like you the extra headroom balanced gives is one of the real appeals of staying balanced throughout.

What is the general consensus regarding balanced from the headphones to the BHA-1 as I'm just about to approach someone to make some balanced cables up for my HD800's and LCD2's, I take it is better to use the separate left + right balanced outputs compared to the stereo output?

[brucek]

I don't know if besides audio, maybe I'm missing some other advantage not having the dual 3pin ?

I would think the dual 3 pin would allow for easy troubleshooting if one channel had a problem. Not the case with a single connector type. Since headphone cables are stressed more than regular cables, perhaps channel problems would crop up, and you'd like to eliminate the possibility that the headphone amp was the culprit.

[zeiter]

I would think the dual 3 pin would allow for easy troubleshooting if one channel had a problem. Not the case with a single connector type. Since headphone cables are stressed more than regular cables, perhaps channel problems would crop up, and you'd like to eliminate the possibility that the headphone amp was the culprit.

I would say you're right , but only in case of non detachable wires, as for my HD800 I could alsways flip the left and right cable in the headphone to pinpoint the problem, but I have also AH-D7000 terminated also with 4pinXLR stereo, and if I had issue, I would be better like you say to find the problem. So maybe to play it safe, dual 3 pin XLR, also while looking for some headphone amps before getting my BHA-1, I found some amps had only dual 3 pin XLR and not the stereo 4pin. That might be another reason for versatility.

[Vipers]

I will Paul,

trying to figure out which option sounds best (for the best price...)

a simple cable-splitter http://www.tbl-audio.nl/cables/index.php?item=xlr-y-kabel-_-splitter-_1x-female--_-2x-male_-zwart&action=article&group_id=27&aid=212&lang=NL or http://www.thomann.de/nl/cae_90074_yaudiosplittkabel.htm
a hefty input switcher Goldpoint http://www.goldpt.com/sw2x.html
the cheaper Monacor's http://monacor.co.uk/products/prosound-mixermisc/vnr/251680/
or the transformer isolated mic splitters, in line level version
http://whirlwindusa.com/catalog/snakes-splitters-and-multiwiring-systems/splitters/sp1x2-and-sp1x3-mic-splitters

if only Bryston had made a second balance out or a balanced passthrough ..... we could have integrated the BHA1 in our balanced systems easily 

anyhow, this is an interesting read on why and how to use splitters: http://whirlwindusa.com/support/tech-articles/microphone-splitters/

Marius

Marius, you missed one option out, Buying another BDP-1/BDA-1 combo solely for the BHA-1 All of a sudden all the other options seem pretty cost effective

You are right though, it really shouldn't be this hard to have a 100% Bryston balanced system, especially as there really is only one source to consider.

I think I'm more tempted by a switching box rather that the cable splitter to be honest, my customer has gone for the Monacor solution but he has specified gold pins making the total £100 so I'm waiting to get some feedback but that does seem like the safest solution.

[Vipers]

Vipers, I had the same dilemma, but every forum I went to, I found that from an Audio point of view,  left + right and stereo  are 100% identical. I asked Bryston technical, and they replied same thing. So I went with a 4pin stereo for convenience. I don't know if besides audio, maybe I'm missing some other advantage not having the dual 3pin ?

Thanks zeiter, that's really interesting as I really would have thought that the separate Left and Right outputs would have been the way to go, makes you wonder why we have 2 options then.

I'm going to contact a company called Toxic Cables next week to discuss maybe supplying me balanced cables for my demo headphones as my HiFi Man HE-500's and HE-6's arrived today and it seems crazy not to run them balanced, so it will be interesting what they recommend, here's Toxics website, they seem to do a good variety of cables for all the top end cans -

http://toxic-cables.co.uk/

[Marius]

Hi Paul,

Am considering the option of the new version2 set......

Please let us know what your findings are with the Monacor, i ordered the 2 tbl splitter cables to test. Hope to compare them soon. Got this nice test scheme setup, cause on the bp26 I've found out that playing the BCD1 over a balanced direct connection, or over a balanced connection over the BDa1 to the BP26, there's no volume/soundquality  difference what so ever. Turning the source selector from bal1 to bal2 in fact leads to no audible difference. If these two new splitter cables hold up to that, i'd be happily surprised. Anyhow, a good and safe reference it will be.

Will let you all know.

Thanks,
Marius

Marius, you missed one option out, Buying another BDP-1/BDA-1 combo solely for the BHA-1 All of a sudden all the other options seem pretty cost effective

You are right though, it really shouldn't be this hard to have a 100% Bryston balanced system, especially as there really is only one source to consider.

I think I'm more tempted by a switching box rather that the cable splitter to be honest, my customer has gone for the Monacor solution but he has specified gold pins making the total £100 so I'm waiting to get some feedback but that does seem like the safest solution.