AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Owner's Circles => VMPS Speakers => Topic started by: hifiguy on 2 Nov 2019, 07:51 pm
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It is past time.
Where (should) I start?
HFG
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It is past time.
Where (should) I start?
HFG
First off - it's not a simple task. You need to really love the speaker. It won't be cheap, and you need to be pleasantly crazy :-)
That said, come up with a gameplay. Outside of cosmetics, you are most likely to deal with several things.
1) Drivers - do they all work? More than likely, they need new surrounds. (That can be done - there are lots of people.)
If drivers are bad - you need to replace all that are the same from both speakers so they match. Getting an exact replacement is most unlikely, and they won't match acoustically at this point anyway.
2) Crossover. The easiest upgrade is to upgrade the caps in the direct signal path for the mid and tweeter. Since you are going to do this, just do it the right way as you won't be going inside that speaker again anytime soon. For the sake of budget, until you pick a brand, think $50 a cap... VMPS uses 6db/oct XO's, so that's one per tweeter bank, mid bank, and mid bass if you desire.
See if those ideas help a bit. I'm sure the crowd will chime in with great ideas. John Casler is the resident VMPS man and has a lot of resources for parts.
Mark
EVOKE
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Oh hell yes! One of a handful Of truly dynamic loudspeakers. Bass that is better than almost every subwoofer out there. First do an assessment. Start pulling out drivers and your DMM and see what’s working and what’s not. Yes there’s a lot of drivers but this is fun stuff. Refoaming drivers is easy. After your first one it just gets easier. Crossover parts are a piece of cake. Thank God they’re not fourth order super complex crossovers. Ask for help here on the forum if you have a driver that doesn’t work and you have trouble sourcing. Good luck with everything and please take lots of pictures and post your progress often.
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Check with Pat Malaga. He should still have some woven carbon fiber woofers, that would be an upgrade.
https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/ele/d/pinole-home-and-car-audio/6998690251.html (https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/ele/d/pinole-home-and-car-audio/6998690251.html)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=200439)
Also, Brian was using a 15" Goldwood woofer, in his last series of subs. It might be worth considering too? Four and 8 ohm versions, depending on what you'll need.
https://www.parts-express.com/goldwood-gw-15pc-8-15-heavy-duty-woofer-8-ohm--290-338 (https://www.parts-express.com/goldwood-gw-15pc-8-15-heavy-duty-woofer-8-ohm--290-338)
https://www.parts-express.com/goldwood-gw-15pc-4-15-heavy-duty-woofer-4-ohm--290-336 (https://www.parts-express.com/goldwood-gw-15pc-4-15-heavy-duty-woofer-4-ohm--290-336)
And I agree with the suggestions of upgrading capacitors. That alone, can make a huge difference in sound. Madisound, Parts Connection, Parts Express, and Sonic Craft sell very good capacitors. I like Mundorf film caps. But Audyn, Jantzen, ClarityCaps, and SoniCap, and others, all have good sounding capacitors.
Good luck.
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Check with Pat Malaga. He should still have some woven carbon fiber woofers, that would be an upgrade.
https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/ele/d/pinole-home-and-car-audio/6998690251.html (https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/ele/d/pinole-home-and-car-audio/6998690251.html)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=200439)
Also, Brian was using a 15" Goodwood woofer, in his last series of subs. It might be worth considering too? Four and 8 ohm versions, depending on what you'll need.
https://www.parts-express.com/goldwood-gw-15pc-8-15-heavy-duty-woofer-8-ohm--290-338 (https://www.parts-express.com/goldwood-gw-15pc-8-15-heavy-duty-woofer-8-ohm--290-338)
https://www.parts-express.com/goldwood-gw-15pc-4-15-heavy-duty-woofer-4-ohm--290-336 (https://www.parts-express.com/goldwood-gw-15pc-4-15-heavy-duty-woofer-4-ohm--290-336)
And I agree with the suggestions of upgrading capacitors. That alone, can make a huge difference in sound. Madisound, Parts Connection, Parts Express, and Sonic Craft sell very good capacitors. I like Mundorf film caps. But Audyn, Jantzen, ClarityCaps, and SoniCap, and others, all have good sounding capacitors.
Good luck.
Stimpy, Ren here :-)
Yes - I must reiterate what you say about Caps... Huge opportunity. Now I'll add 2 cents. Choosing is important. If you have a very diverse collection of sources - some good and some great, you need to consider how analytical you want to go. Also, matching the caps to the drivers is important. Having spent a LOT of time matching caps and planars - I've found Mundorf Supreme an excellent choice. I've used some Clarity - but that made sense in a very specific application in combo with Mundorf. My newer designs favor the Silver/Gold - but they are very revealing and a pricier.
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It is past time.
Where (should) I start?
HFG
This is a very old article - but still very valid and useful... https://www.vhaudio.com/21capacitorshootout.pdf
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Stimpy, Ren here :-)
:dance:
Yes - I must reiterate what you say about Caps... Huge opportunity. Now I'll add 2 cents. Choosing is important. If you have a
very diverse collection of sources - some good and some great, you need to consider how analytical you want to go. Also, matching the caps to the drivers is important. Having spent a LOT of time matching caps and planars - I've found Mundorf Supreme an excellent choice. I've used some Clarity - but that made sense in a very specific application in combo with Mundorf. My newer designs favor the Silver/Gold - but they are very revealing and a pricier.
I totally agree. I love the Mundorf caps. I've mainly used EVO Oils. But, I have a few spots were I spent for Supremes and Supreme Silver/Oils. Very much worth the cost. And while I liked the ClarityCap CSA and ESA caps I've tried, I've found they have a very distinctive sound, that took getting used to. Warm, but a very pronounced upper mid suck out, that made vocals very closed in. A Mundorf and a paralleled Clarity would probably work well together, to open them up. A synergistic cascaded circuit.
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:dance:
I totally agree. I love the Mundorf caps. I've mainly used EVO Oils. But, I have a few spots were I spent for Supremes and Supreme Silver/Oils. Very much worth the cost. And while I liked the ClarityCap CSA and ESA caps I've tried, I've found they have a very distinctive sound, that took getting used to. Warm, but a very pronounced upper mid suck out, that made vocals very closed in. A Mundorf and a paralleled Clarity would probably work well together, to open them up. A synergistic cascaded circuit.
Yes, they complement each other in certain driver matches - for example - the NEO 3 and a fast mid-woofer. I spec Mundorf shunted over Clarity in my Ruby speaker. It's a more complex crossover, not 6 db. I wanted to try to save money to hit a price point - but the combo actually cost more. But it was worth the difference in sound. It's not subtle - even a non-audiophile can hear the difference.
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More?
:D
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.... also need a local 40291 cabinet / speaker repair audiophile with skills and the right power saw to cut off the top of the speakers to get at and replace the leaky PRs.
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Any inputs??
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You've never stated exactly what you found right/wrong w them. Hard to give advice w/o adequate information.
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Sorry for the delay in responding.
Need is as you would suspect for VMPS IIa/R SEs that are now 32 years old.
I am wondering about the crossover caps but I am not certain regarding the SE Black Gates.
Tweaks may be considered too but other than an anti-vibration mat I am unaware of more.
Visual on drivers now seem all okay.
ANY suggestions would be appreciated. I find myself working from home these days and have time (no commutes) to explore these big guys again.
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... since we are all home these days - any thoughts on my project?
Crossover caps are Black Gates I believe, and Power Line internal wiring (SE designation). Do they NEED to be replaced (Black Gates)?
Speakers all seem okay. PR on the top have been replaced as they leaked.
Rest seems fine. Need to hear them obviously and as yet the system is minus a source (CD player). Search there is on.
What you all think of the replacement Black Gates would be very gratefully acknowledged!
SP
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I agree with RSorak, not enough info on your part. Hello hifiguy, black gate capacitors are normally electrolytic type capacitors, not used in speakers. Maybe you should take a picture so we know what we’re dealing with.
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As a general rule the caps used in speakers do not suffer with age. At this point you need to listen to them....Hard to believe you're trying to fix speakers you haven't listened to.
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... since we are all home these days - any thoughts on my project?
Crossover caps are Black Gates I believe, and Power Line internal wiring (SE designation). Do they NEED to be replaced (Black Gates)?
Speakers all seem okay. PR on the top have been replaced as they leaked.
Rest seems fine. Need to hear them obviously and as yet the system is minus a source (CD player). Search there is on.
What you all think of the replacement Black Gates would be very gratefully acknowledged!
SP
Black Gates are electrolytic capacitors. Unlike poly, they do age and fail over time, especially if over-driven. So, I'd recommend a refresh. Lot's of good brands of poly caps to choose from. Sites like Madisound, Parts Express, Parts Connexion, and Sonic Craft, all offer good caps. Read the Humble Homemade Capacitor reviews as well. Lot's of good info there too.
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html (http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html)
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.... also need a local 40291 cabinet / speaker repair audiophile with skills and the right power saw to cut off the top of the speakers to get at and replace the leaky PRs.
Curious why you need to cut anything open. I have Super Towers from 1981. All the drivers, including the Passive Radiator, are just screwed in. Once you take out the PR or the big woofers, you have open access to the inside of the speaker to get to any other parts or crossovers.
I built mine from a kit, back when Brians speakers were a little simpler. It was easy.
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The top passive radiator was installed when the cabinet was built. So the only way to repair it is to cut the cabinet to remove it.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=209125)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=209168)
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Hmm....this unit was offered as a kit originally. So how did they get it in there in the first place? I would think the top wood panel above the top slot is probably glued or screwed in?
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Getting ready to listen to the speakers now for the first time in 15 years - pre any rebuild or refurbishment FINALLY. Health delays have cleared and I am ready to go again.
Speakers and components have been kept in a fully air conditioned home - simply stored.
Amp was a newly rebuilt / improved Hafler DH500 from Musical Concepts (PA-3D Signature - Dual Mono 2011) - full treatment with all new large caps and toroidal transformers - stacked.
Pre amp was a rebuilt / improved Apt Holman out or Audiographics with Tom Holman helping / guiding Ed (2015).
What should I do first before starting them up for the first time - in anything? :o
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My favorite piece of advice is to power up in an order where you don't get a bass thump. Also with the power down. From there, turn it up a little to see if everything is working. Leave everything on if okay 24/7, yes caps sound better when left with a signal on. Over a few days play them louder and see where you stand.
From that point, you will have a good idea of 'what's next'. Have fun. "It's all about the music!"
Mark
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Welcome back hifiguy. Good to see you here again. And I can relate with health issues causing delays. I'm still trying to finish up a pair of Acoustic Research AR90s, that I recapped 5 years ago. Life gets in the way, I suppose. :lol:
Plus, I agree with Mark. Carefully turn everything on. Volume off/muted. Turn your source on first, followed by the preamp. Once they're warmed up, if possible, listen to music with headphones, to ensure everything sounds correct. Only after that, would I power up the amp. Then again, let the amp warm up and settle in, for at least half an hour. If all seems normal, and the amp temp isn't too hot, I'd proceed to give the speakers some volume. Low at first, then more if no issues are heard. It might take the speakers a bit to settle in too, as the caps may have to reform as well, after 15 years.
Hope everything works! :popcorn:
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New power amp is (now) indicated for my VMPS IIa/R SEs. Modded Hafler DH500 by MC just isn't making it. Apt is also too long in the tooth now. Integrated seems right.
Starting new given my LONG time retired from listening.
Looking at this so far from a PURELY sound perspective:
1. Pass Labs INT-25
2. McIntosh MAC7200
Do we know my the speakers minimum load? Class A is good. Autoformers make things easier perhaps. Can't find a location to hear them both yet.... The VMPSs are current hungry certainly although efficient.
LMK your thoughts.
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I'm not sure if yours use the Focal T-120 tweeters, but if so, they can be rebuilt. Also, as an amp suggestion, if you like vintage, there is a great community of people refurbishing Carver stuff from the 80's and 90's. thecarversite.com
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My speakers are the Special Editions that added OEM single-amp "module"—two additional inputs and a toggle switch aimed at bi-wiring—already installed, IAR Wondercap crossover capacitors, Monster Powerline I internal wiring, and the newest Focal 1" "Superdome" tweeters.
... and I do like the older classic stuff (witness my clinging to Hafler / APT) up until you listen to the new best stuff now.
1. Pass Labs INT-25
2. McIntosh MAC7200
???
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Accuphase
Luxman
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I read about the current Luxmans too. A possible contender but I need to wrestle with this list first - if I can.
My focus with some added help here remains on trying to compare:
1. Pass Labs INT-25
2. McIntosh MAC7200
Has anyone heard these guys to comment for me on possible results I might hear with my VMPS IIa/R - SE?
Thanks in advance for sharing your judgements.
HFG
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Can you tell me what exact model of Focal tweeters they are? Did you ever take them out of the cabinet?
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Sorry, no I do not know more than posted here.
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Okay - how about the differences heard listening to:
1. Pass Labs INT-25
2. McIntosh MAC7200
.... on any speakers used during the listening test?
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If you feel comfortable pulling one of the tweeters out of the cabinet and turning it around to look at the model number, it would be incredibly useful. It's sort of a black hole that we haven't been able to figure out exactly which model it is.
If you're not used to this, it's pretty easy. You basically just unscrew the screws. There's probably five of them pull it out. Look at the back, put it back in again and screw the screws in again.