RM40's and Impact, Transients?

kristian85 · « **on:** 4 Sep 2003, 10:58 pm »

Are there any questionmarks hanging above the RM40's ability to do leading edge impacts, and dynamic impacts as a whole? Midrange impact? E.g., snaredrum, kickdrum, tympani? As good/better as/than good cone mid-bass/midrange drivers?

shokunin · « **Reply #1 on:** 4 Sep 2003, 11:41 pm »

The midbass impact is a fine line trade-off with the RM40's. Overdamp the passive radiator gets you more midbass at the expense of deep bass and vice versa.

It does not mean that there is no midbass, it's not as accentuated as other speakers. However, room, gear, and tweaks can give you the balance you need. I did notice that Brian Cheney's RM40's did bass a whole lot better than mine, but that could be due to the Ampzillas, the Kimber Kables, the room, tuning etc.

I think the RM/x would completely addresses any issue in this respect due to larger drivers and design.

Tyson · « **Reply #2 on:** 5 Sep 2003, 12:16 am »

The only time I've heard mid-bass problems with the 40s is in a bright room. What happens is that in a bright room you have to turn down the midpanels to reduce that low treble glare that the room induces. But, when the mid-panel is turned down, the 40's lose a little upper/mid bass because the panels play so low, and since the woofers are still playing full blast, the low bass can take on too much prominence. Solution is to either use softer sounding amp/preamp/cables or (best advice) treat the room.

Other than that one situation, there shouldn't be any problems w/the 40's "slam". Transient response is among the best I've heard, in fact it is one of the few speakers that can pass a semblance of a square wave.

audiochef · « **Reply #3 on:** 5 Sep 2003, 12:38 am »

I think you know my answer to this , but I'll elaborate .
If it's rip hardrock electric guitar your concerned about ,it has few peers. This is in comparison to Maggi 1.6s and Acoustat 1100s I've had in my room with regards to the mids and how they will cut through the air and slap you upside the head if you so desire them to.
They can also be delicate (audiophile-like) as with a piano notes floating left, center,right and behind them as well.

Stan

ps.no, I don't smoke it no more

John Casler · « **Reply #4 on:** 5 Sep 2003, 02:34 am »

I think Tyson "nailed it" pretty well.

Since the speaker can be adjusted and tuned, if you have a rather "bright, reflective room" you might adjust down the midrange to the point of loosing some of the impact. (I know I did)

I added some acoustic treatment and adjusted the pots back up and voila there it is.

Additionally, if you have a low seating postition, or if you listen rather nearfield, the "midbass woofer" (the upper one) can fire more over you than at you (even though mid bass does make all the air move and does not beam).

I suggested a simple tweak some weeks ago called the "Sonic Director" that will also "enhance" midbass impact, integration and presence for those who sit nearfield.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=4201

John Casler · « **Reply #5 on:** 5 Sep 2003, 02:47 am »

Quote

I did notice that Brian Cheney's RM40's did bass a whole lot better than mine, but that could be due to the Ampzillas, the Kimber Kables, the room, tuning etc.

Unless Brian is keeping some "special magic" only for his speakers, I think your right.

I've heard a lot of VMPS speakers and Brian's have the deepest and best bass response.

"AND" they also seem to have the best Midbass Impact too.

I think the bass he creates is a combination of the AMpzilla amps and the positioning of the speakers. Plus he uses a LEDE (Live End Dead End) room which causes him to turn the gain up a bit more than most of us, which sends those woofers a greater signal.

I was also taken aback by watching the NeoPanels moving like cones. I mean I could see them moving and vibrating from a distance.

I have never seen that on mine. And boy did it have a Tyson like, (as in Mike) impact and slam!!

And scapel sharp leading edge transients.

audiochef · « **Reply #6 on:** 5 Sep 2003, 02:58 am »

Oh, and lastly but certainly not leastly, its large vollupscious vocals, especially female which is now grainless , thanks to the addition of auri caps to the FSTs . These caps to these tweets highly recommended.

Stan

Sa-dono · « **Reply #7 on:** 5 Sep 2003, 05:32 am »

I guess I need to pay Brian a visit one of these days to see his ribbons really move air. I'm kind of curious to see if the RM40's can provide the attack I like. You should try buying some Ampzillas John...or at least the stereo version. Inquiring minds..oh okay..maybe just me..want to know. Then again..I think it's just all because of your speaker cables John

I guess one of these days I'll have to pay you another visit to hear if you've reached sonic heaven or Chuckie's house of horrors

Hope things are going well....with your Bunny

doug s. · « **Reply #8 on:** 5 Sep 2003, 12:23 pm »

i would bet that eliminating the passive x-over between woofer & midrange ribbon, & running active x-over & bi-amping, would help the midbass a *lot*. brian mentioned i would get better overall performance if i ran rm40's this way. he also said 200hz w/24db/octave active x-over would be good. the slightly higher x-over point should also help the midbass, as the woofer is playing a few hz higher.

hearing all this talk about rm40's, & especially overdamping their passive woofers giving better midbass response makes me really wish i could afford a pair.

loss of extreme low end caused by overdamping the passive woofers, would be a non-issue for me, w/my larger subs...

doug s.

kristian85 · « **Reply #9 on:** 5 Sep 2003, 03:50 pm »

Well, all this talk about RM40 mid-bass issues gives me pause--it's a critical region for music. Are the complaints of issues with mid-bass merely associated closely with poor or inadequate setup/room interaction? None of the reviews mentioned anything about any problem in the mid-bass.

Tyson · « **Reply #10 on:** 5 Sep 2003, 03:53 pm »

Quote from: kristian85

Are the complaints of issues with mid-bass merely associated closely with poor or inadequate setup/room interaction?

Yes, this is precisely my point earlier.

Also, the 40's like amps w/a LOT of current ane power delivery (ie, lots of watts and stout power supplies). The low end really comes alive with an adequate amp.

meilankev · « **Reply #11 on:** 5 Sep 2003, 08:09 pm »

Kristian,

I've now owned RM40s (w/ TRT) for over a year. They replaced Thiel CS-3.5 speakers in my main system. These RM40s are a huge improvement pretty much across the board. But if I had to select their strongest suit (in my system, in my room), reproduction of acoustic percussion instruments is it. And it's not even close.

Attack/decay is spookily dead on. And I have multiple demos in which the kick drum will absolutely suck the breath out of you. Dynamics seem to be without boundaries. In fact, this ability to handle transients has caused a couple of audiophile listeners to remark how it took a couple of songs for their ears to adjust. But then they're hooked. Bright? Not in the least. There is no fatigue here. Just a clarity they hadn't heard before. Three weeks ago, two of my audiophile pals from Atlanta were so enamored, they decided to miss their flight home so they could stay and listen longer (we had already been in my listening room for over 4 hours).

Like every other 2-channel enthusiast who has been in my home, they couldn't get over the realistic impact of percussion on my system. Some also praise the sound of acoustic guitars; some can't get enough piano; some love vocals (particlarly male); my brother (who has played the sax for almost 40 years) couldn't stop talking about woodwinds. But everybody, and I mean everybody (including non-audiophiles), specifically mention drums and percussion as "special".

RM40s lacking in mid-bass dynamics? Certainly not in my system.

Kevin

bkwiram · « **Reply #12 on:** 5 Sep 2003, 11:04 pm »

hey Kevin,

Two questions. One, on a well recorded drum track, does the drumset appear to have realistic size and presence? That's one problem with speakers in general - drum kits get that magic shrinking treatment.

Second question is - can you recommend one or two very-well-recorded drum tracks on CD?

thanks for all info,

Brandt K.

meilankev · « **Reply #13 on:** 6 Sep 2003, 01:45 am »

Hi Brandt,

It's funny you ask about "that magic shrinking treatment". Although I have noticed it on some recent recordings, I find it much more common that recording engineers tend to want to give drummers elastic 8 foot arms, and therefore the drum kit ends up sounding like it spans 2/3 the width of the soundstage. But to answer your question, I feel a well-recorded drum track will present the drummer with realistic dimensions. Hopefully a quality audio system will re-create this.

As to drum tracks I like to use to show off my system, I have two caveats. First, none of them are on CD - all are vinyl. Second, all of these songs are enjoyable to listen to. If I detest a song, I'm not going to demo it for folks just because something about it is "cool".

Some of my favorites drum/percussion tracks:
1) "Station to Station" David Bowie
2) "Back to the Family" Jethro Tull
3) "Crumbling Down" John Cougar Mellencamp
4) "We Belong Together" Rickie Lee Jones
5) "Mountains O' Things" Tracy Chapman
6) "In My Time of Dying" Led Zeppelin (200g vinyl)

On the Led Zeppelin track, I swear you can almost feel the drum kit shaking from the ferocity of John Bonham's attacks. On a side note, I just bought their first 6 albums on 180g/200g vinyl, replacing the original copies I've had for years. Although a lot of the songs don't sound much different, some of them are amazing. I'm thinking about writing up a "blow-by-blow" comparo on these albums in a week or two. Maybe it will enlighten someone who's skeptical of any benefit these more expensive discs may or may not provide.

Kevin

bkwiram · « **Reply #14 on:** 6 Sep 2003, 02:26 am »

Well, I was thinking of shrinking applied by the speakers, regardless of the recording engineer's intentions...

A drum kit in person sounds 'big' to me (not necessarily huge, just big, the way a horse whinnying sounds like a big animal, particularly at the end of the whinny when the bass comes in), and it sounds very, very present. In my experience most speakers/systems make a kit sound smaller and much less present. Not enough HF, not enough LF, not enough dynamic and frequency range on the recording, etc. etc.

Anyway, just for clarification,

Brandt

ps yes I know records are better but as someone who wasn't even 10 when CDs came along, I don't feel like feeling guilty for not having a turntable and a big vinyl collection

John Casler · « **Reply #15 on:** 6 Sep 2003, 04:43 am »

As far as drum size perspective, with my RM40s it depends on the mixing engineer.

On Stevie Ray Vaughn's "Tin Pan Alley", the mixing eng. "did" take a few liberties and the Toms are in different places while the main kit is right where it is supposed to be which is center stage behind the main performer.

Many times the drummer is behind the main perfromer and up on a platform looking over the performers head.

But in most cases, with my system and set up, the drummer sounds "exactly" there, if I am 2nd -3rd row center.

I get a rather life size drum kit, but again it depends on the CD.

A good one to judge from is Diana Krall's Live in Paris. That one (again except for a little "occasional" spread of the toms is behind Krall and it sounds like it.

Russ Kunkle can be heard pretty much in that position too on most James Taylor albums.

In general the main performer should sound more forward and the drum kit behind (and sometimes behind and above) them by a few feet.

John Casler · « **Reply #16 on:** 6 Sep 2003, 04:58 am »

Quote from: Sa-dono

You should try buying some Ampzillas John...or at least the stereo version. Inquiring minds..oh okay..maybe just me..want to know. Then again..I think it's just all because of your speaker cables John I guess one of these days I'll have to pay you another visit to hear if you've reached sonic heaven or Chuckie's house of horrors Hope things are going well....with your Bunny

Man Sa-dono, is always trying to get me to spend more money

Buy a Trinaural processor, buy some Ampzilla 2Ks,.....

He must think I make money

helping people get equipment.

Just Kidding, but if you haven't moved yet, you should stop over and see/hear my treatments and tweaks.

Ya could bring those Refs along since my 626Rs haven't had anything good to eat lately

(Flame suit on)

And as far as my "Bunny"

... She is/was a Playmate.

They haven't had "bunnies" since forever (probably before you were born)

And she is "superfine" thank you, and I'll tell you things in private that will tell you why I have a smile on my face

Sa-dono · « **Reply #17 on:** 6 Sep 2003, 09:13 am »

Quote from: John Casler

Man Sa-dono, is always trying to get me to spend more money

Buy a Trinaural processor, buy some Ampzilla 2Ks,.....

He must think I make money helping people get equipment.

Dude..didn't you READ the dealer's guidebook?

You're supposed to buy all of the new products for us to listen to, so you can be the guinea pig

Quote

Just Kidding, but if you haven't moved yet, you should stop over and see/hear my treatments and tweaks.

Ya could bring those Refs along since my 626Rs haven't had anything good to eat lately

(Flame suit on)

Already moved.. And that flame suit must be for watching your 626R's burn up into ashes..they should make good firewood

I guess we'll see what VMPS can really eat. We have to convince Brian to put a pair of RM/x's against the Wilson X2

Quote

And as far as my "Bunny" ... She is/was a Playmate.

They haven't had "bunnies" since forever (probably before you were born)

I believe the last club closed in 81. And same difference. A hot body is a hot body...you'd think you thought they had a head or brain attached

Quote

And she is "superfine" thank you, and I'll tell you things in private that will tell you why I have a smile on my face

Okay...I'll await the stories.

Brian Cheney · « **Reply #18 on:** 6 Sep 2003, 05:47 pm »

I have heard the Wilson speakers (including WAMM's and X-1's, not the X-2) and no, they do not compete sonically with even the RM 40 let alone the RM/X.

Sa-dono · « **Reply #19 on:** 6 Sep 2003, 09:19 pm »

Quote from: Brian Cheney

I have heard the Wilson speakers (including WAMM's and X-1's, not the X-2) and no, they do not compete sonically with even the RM 40 let alone the RM/X.

Hey Brian! Would you be willing to get the RM/X's over to oneobgyn's place, once you have a pair of RM/X's available, and he has his X-2's (as long as he is willing to hold such a comparison like he has claimed in the past)? The X-2's are supposed to be a HUGE step up from the X-1's. Also, then we could get as many audiophiles in the area over to hear the two. Maybe John would even fly or drive up? (huh John?

) If the RM/X can really spank the X-2....you would come away with a lot of positive reviews for little if any investment