I am back with another project. (Listening room)

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Guy 13

Re: I am back with another project. (Listening room)
« Reply #40 on: 12 Jan 2011, 02:39 am »
Guy,
Looks like you are making good progress on your plan.  I'm glad you liked the ATS link.  I purchased RockWool and the Microsuede fabric from them.  Both products were boxed well and of great quality.

Another quality company I found for bass traps is Next Acoustics.  www.nextacoustics dot com  I really liked these bass traps.  If you have a larger order (Multiple boxes) you can email them for a custom quote and the price goes down by about 50%.  I found that hot glue secured them to the wall very well.
 
You could use a product like this for all the floor/ceiling/wall to wall intersections.  The more you use the cleaner your bass response will be.  It is a case where more is more.  Someone can correct me is I am wrong but when it comes to bass traps its the stored energy that it helps to decay quickly that makes the difference.  I don't know that it will show up with a simple mic and bass tones, but if you were to run a waterfall plot you could see the improvement.

Also don't forget the Acoustics Circle right here on AudioCircle.  I have seen some amazing projects one there.  Some totally blow your mind projects that have a lot of value in looking at.

Thanks,
Robert
Hi Robert and all Audio Circle members.
After hours of reading on the Internet, I am starting to wonder if I am making progress, there are still so many unanswered questions.
Thanks for the Next Acoustics link, however, I find their products a little expensive compared to ATS.
You have to keep in mind that I am on planet Vietnam, which is far, far away... Therefore getting those items, the transport is a big chunk of the cost.
On the other hand I must say that their products look really, really nice, especially the 4" Sound Trax.
Their bass trap is easy to implement, however, I have some concern about their efficiency ? ? ? Their approach is quite different from ATS.
I go visiting from time to time the Acoustic Circle, but I always come back to this site, it's here that I feel at home, even if I am on planet Vietnam.
Thanks.
Guy 13 

Guy 13

Re: I am back with another project. (Listening room)
« Reply #41 on: 12 Jan 2011, 02:47 am »
A fresh take on some things for you...
http://www.gedlee.com/Home_theatre.htm

Geddes is acoustic researcher foremost. Don't let the "theater" in the title distract you from the solid audio advice found within...

If you are creating a room from scratch, this is a great investment before you lock in to anything.

-Tony

Hi Tony and all Audio Circle members.
Thanks for the Gedlee link, I went on their site a few times, however, even if there is some useful information on their site, I did not really found anything usefull for me.
My listening room is still only on paper and I still have 2 to 3 month to come up with a final plan. There are many ways to do it and many products to choose from, I must make the right choice to show the very good sound performance of the GR Reseach V1 and V1 and later on the N3TL.
Thanks.
Guy 13 

Guy 13

Re: I am back with another project. (Listening room)
« Reply #42 on: 12 Jan 2011, 02:57 am »
A couple things that I don't see in your print are the loudspeakers and seating position.  The seating position should not be against a wall.  Firing your loudspeakers down the long portion of the room is good but not having a symmetrical room will cause the one side to perform differently than the other.  Will this be noticeable in your situation, I'm just not sure.

If you are able to control the dampening of bass outside the usage of fiberglass then I would recommend it.  You want to keep your room reflective which provides a sense of spaciousness.  Fiberglass is much better at the absorption of higher frequencies than lower.  For other methods I would highly recommend you consult Dr Geddes home theater book as posted above.
Hi goskers and all Audio Circle members.
(goskers stands for what ?)
The GR Research V1/V2 OB loudspeakers will be 5' from the back wall and about 3' from the side wall, of course they placement will be symmetrical.
The listenming chair will be centered 6 to 8' way from the speakers.
No, the listening chair won't be against a wall, I know that, thanks.
The non symmetrical wall was a crazy idea, I have now to decide between parallel walls or...Well I don't know how you call that, but look like a horn mouth.
Of course, I would like to avoid installing bass traps, but I have to keep reading to find alternative ways of taking care of that problem. I did consult Dr. Geddes site and did not find anything useful for my project.
Thanks.
Guy 13 

Guy 13

Re: I am back with another project. (Listening room)
« Reply #43 on: 12 Jan 2011, 03:07 am »
Flat ceiling is a mistake.  :nono:

Rocket_round earth_Ronny
Hi Rocket_round earth_Ronny and all Audio Circle members.
How about only: Hi Ronny?
So, according to you a flat ceiling is a mistake and a no no !
I am sure there are dozens of Audio Circle members that don't agree with you and for me, well, I am not sure.
Can you share with all of us why a flat ceiling is a No No !
My first idea was to get a slanted ceiling, but cost and difficulty of building made me change my original idea.
Waiting for your explanation on that flat ceiling's  No No !
Guy 13

ebag4

Re: I am back with another project. (Listening room)
« Reply #44 on: 12 Jan 2011, 03:13 am »
I would like to avoid installing bass traps, but I have to keep reading to find alternative ways of taking care of that problem.
Hi Guy,
I believe you could face the bass traps with an 1/8" plywood, trim it out and finish it the same as your walls basically making the bass traps disapear.  This will also keep the bass traps from absorbing too much in the upper frequencies.  From what I have read this is a good way to do bass absorbtion.

Best,
Ed

Guy 13

Re: I am back with another project. (Listening room)
« Reply #45 on: 12 Jan 2011, 03:21 am »
Hi Guy,
I believe you could face the bass traps with an 1/8" plywood, trim it out and finish it the same as your walls basically making the bass traps disapear.  This will also keep the bass traps from absorbing too much in the upper frequencies.  From what I have read this is a good way to do bass absorbtion.

Best,
Ed
Hi Ed and all Audio Circle members.
Thanks for the suggestion, however, I don't quite understand what you mean. The way I understand it is that the 1/8" plywood would only be some kind of frame ? ? ?
Do you have any pictures or hand sketch ?
You know, as they say: A picture is worth a thousand words...
Thanks.
Guy 13
(ebag4, why not ebag5 or even ebag10 ?)

ebag4

Re: I am back with another project. (Listening room)
« Reply #46 on: 12 Jan 2011, 01:42 pm »
Hi Ed and all Audio Circle members.
Thanks for the suggestion, however, I don't quite understand what you mean. The way I understand it is that the 1/8" plywood would only be some kind of frame ? ? ?
Do you have any pictures or hand sketch ?
You know, as they say: A picture is worth a thousand words...
Thanks.
Guy 13
(ebag4, why not ebag5 or even ebag10 ?)
Guy,
This isn't exactly what I was looking for but it discusses the concept, take a look at this site:
http://www.customaudiodesigns.co.uk/articles/membranes.html

Ebag4 because Ebag3 was taken when I initially started signing up at a website.

Best,
Ed

Guy 13

Re: I am back with another project. (Listening room)
« Reply #47 on: 12 Jan 2011, 02:26 pm »
Guy,
This isn't exactly what I was looking for but it discusses the concept, take a look at this site:
http://www.customaudiodesigns.co.uk/articles/membranes.html

Ebag4 because Ebag3 was taken when I initially started signing up at a website.

Best,
Ed
Hi Ed and all Audio Circle members.
Thanks for the link above, I just finish reading what on their side and again, their approach is different from their competitors.
Who is right ? ? ?
I will do some more reading on other sites and then, decide by myself who's closer to the thruth or who's closer to what makes more sense to me...
Very shortly, I will post how I want to take care of the acoustic treatment of my future listening room.
For my listening room I am considering the following dimensions :
4 meters wide (Front) X 5 meters wide (Back) X 6.5 meters (Long)
X 2.55 meters (High/front) X 3 meters (High/back).
Still not sure about the slanted roof, I am still wondering if the improvement in sound quality is worth the extra trouble and expense.
I think my future listening room is of a good size and therefore;
I should not have too many problems with the acoustic.
That's what I think according to what I read up to now, but I could be wrong, it won't be the first time or even the last time...
I am thinking of using Bass Traps, diffusers and absorbers in large quantities.
I will make them myself and if I have too many, I will simply sell them to audiophiles.
In Vietnam, bass traps, etc... Are rare commodities...
More later.
Guy 13
 
 

SoCalWJS

Re: I am back with another project. (Listening room)
« Reply #48 on: 12 Jan 2011, 11:23 pm »
Hi Ed and all Audio Circle members.
Thanks for the link above, I just finish reading what on their side and again, their approach is different from their competitors.
Who is right ? ? ?I will do some more reading on other sites and then, decide by myself who's closer to the thruth or who's closer to what makes more sense to me...
Very shortly, I will post how I want to take care of the acoustic treatment of my future listening room.
For my listening room I am considering the following dimensions :
4 meters wide (Front) X 5 meters wide (Back) X 6.5 meters (Long)
X 2.55 meters (High/front) X 3 meters (High/back).
Still not sure about the slanted roof, I am still wondering if the improvement in sound quality is worth the extra trouble and expense.
I think my future listening room is of a good size and therefore;
I should not have too many problems with the acoustic.
That's what I think according to what I read up to now, but I could be wrong, it won't be the first time or even the last time...
I am thinking of using Bass Traps, diffusers and absorbers in large quantities.
I will make them myself and if I have too many, I will simply sell them to audiophiles.
In Vietnam, bass traps, etc... Are rare commodities...
More later.
Guy 13
 
 
Guy - that's the hard part. The more I read, the more confused I became. There are many different theories out there, and each has proponents and detractors. I remember one author who did a series in one of the magazines many years ago, and he said the only surefire solution was headphones - everything else is a compromise.

Basic good things: Golden ratio, rule of thirds/fifths/sevenths, Live end/dead end, control resonances, bass traps, diffusion.

DIY for bass traps should be doable in Vietnam, but that's just a guess. You might try to figure out what you can do as DIY where you're at, and go from there.

TRADERXFAN

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Re: I am back with another project. (Listening room)
« Reply #49 on: 13 Jan 2011, 12:45 am »
http://www.customaudiodesigns.co.uk/articles/membranes.html

Guys, The information linked above isn't controversial, nor esoteric. It comes straight from page 202 or so of Everest's Handbook of acoustics
http://www.amazon.com/Master-Handbook-Acoustics-Alton-Everest/dp/0071603328/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1294878240&sr=8-1

Also Ethan (from Realtraps) discussed the panel absorber here:
http://www.ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html#better%20traps

A link to a free acoustic calculator program for these, and other acoustics calculations like helmholtz etc, here:
http://www.mh-audio.nl/user/acoustic%20calculator.asp

The panel absorber type is also advocated by Geddes (I had provided the link earlier. The book has a lot about actual room construction techniques, too bad you didn't find anything helpful to you, Guy13)
The Geddes approach advocates his narrow controlled directivity speaker to control lateral reflections, if you don't have that, (or even if you do and want more control) then it is commonly advised to treat the first reflection points.

Geddes advises to treat the wall behind the front speakers as much as possible with broadband absorption, and diffuse the first reflection points, or absorb them if necessary.

Hope that helps.

-Tony

Guy 13

Re: I am back with another project. (Listening room)
« Reply #50 on: 13 Jan 2011, 10:16 am »
Guy - that's the hard part. The more I read, the more confused I became. There are many different theories out there, and each has proponents and detractors. I remember one author who did a series in one of the magazines many years ago, and he said the only surefire solution was headphones - everything else is a compromise.

Basic good things: Golden ratio, rule of thirds/fifths/sevenths, Live end/dead end, control resonances, bass traps, diffusion.

DIY for bass traps should be doable in Vietnam, but that's just a guess. You might try to figure out what you can do as DIY where you're at, and go from there.
Hi WJS and all Audio Circle members.
I just finish three hours of reading on the subject of acoustic room treatment and this time, I am less confused and I know more than before.

I will take a few days to digest and to sort out all the information that is now stocked randomly in my brain.

Headphones may have better sound quality than speakers, but they are lacking the ambiance which is very important to re-create the live like music.
Again, my opinion for what it's worth.

Lots of things to consider : Room size, diffusors, absorbers, bass traps, etc...
Since I will be designing/building my listening room from scratch, and I will have a whole floor, well, almost... To myself, this is a huge advantage.

After all that reading, I now know that with a large room you can avoid or at least diminish lots of problems...

Bass traps are really easy to make, however, I might have to order the 703 fiberglass or equivalent rigid board from the USA. (Not a real big problem.)

Once I have made a clean-up in my head and that everything is clear, I will post my thoughts, ideas and state clearly what I want to do.
I want to share with all Audio Circle members my ideas and hopefully, they will tell me if I am going in the right direction.
More to come.
Guy 13
   

Guy 13

Re: I am back with another project. (Listening room)
« Reply #51 on: 13 Jan 2011, 10:31 am »
http://www.customaudiodesigns.co.uk/articles/membranes.html

Guys, The information linked above isn't controversial, nor esoteric. It comes straight from page 202 or so of Everest's Handbook of acoustics
http://www.amazon.com/Master-Handbook-Acoustics-Alton-Everest/dp/0071603328/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1294878240&sr=8-1

Also Ethan (from Realtraps) discussed the panel absorber here:
http://www.ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html#better%20traps

A link to a free acoustic calculator program for these, and other acoustics calculations like helmholtz etc, here:
http://www.mh-audio.nl/user/acoustic%20calculator.asp

The panel absorber type is also advocated by Geddes (I had provided the link earlier. The book has a lot about actual room construction techniques, too bad you didn't find anything helpful to you, Guy13)
The Geddes approach advocates his narrow controlled directivity speaker to control lateral reflections, if you don't have that, (or even if you do and want more control) then it is commonly advised to treat the first reflection points.

Geddes advises to treat the wall behind the front speakers as much as possible with broadband absorption, and diffuse the first reflection points, or absorb them if necessary.

Hope that helps.

-Tony
Hi Tony and all Audio Circle members.
Because of you, now I have a big headhache...(LOL)
But, I won't blame you for it, beause after three hours of intensive reading I now know more than before on room acoustic treatment and I think more clearly about the design of my future listening room.
A zillion thanks for all your links, I went thru all of them.

The long writing of Ethan from RealTraps is the most informative one in my opinion, even if he talks more about problems with small rooms.
After reading his article, now, my intention is to build a large listening room, since I am starting from scratch.

Since I will be using Danny's V1 and V2 dipole speakers, I am still not 100% sure if the wall behind the speakers will be reflective, diffusing or absorbing?
I think I will go with a mix of bass traps in the two corners with some diffusion panel between the two corners bass traps.

Again thanks for your help, it's highly appreciated.
To thanks you for your help, I will share with you and all Audio Circle members the results of the treatment of my listening room, however, don't hold on to your breath, this might take some time, because here in Vietnam, the Vietnamese did not invented speed... (LOL)
Guy 13 

ebag4

Re: I am back with another project. (Listening room)
« Reply #52 on: 13 Jan 2011, 02:12 pm »
I think I will go with a mix of bass traps in the two corners with some diffusion panel between the two corners bass traps.
Guy,
This is what I have found works best with my V1s.  My room is much smaller than what yours will be but I believe you are moving in the right direction based upon my experience.

Best,
Ed

Guy 13

Re: I am back with another project. (Listening room)
« Reply #53 on: 14 Jan 2011, 05:13 am »

Hi all Audio Circle members.
Got this picture from a Vietnamese audio magazine, not sure if that place really exists?
One thing is sure, at first sight; that listening room looks really nice, nice for someone that knows nothing about acoustic treatment, that is.
What wrong about that music room?
Well,
First: The carpet is too small and not thick enough.
Second: The three side panels on each side walls are of the reflective type.
Third: The junction between the top wall and the ceiling as some kind of a long hole in the ceiling, I don’t know if it was intended to be some kind of bass trap, but I don’t see any acoustic stuffing.
Fourth: I don’t know if the four fluorescent lights act as diffusers or absorbers. I think they do nothing good to improve the sound.
Fifth: I see some bass traps in the front corners, but to me they are not wide enough and should not they go from floor to ceiling and be at a slight angle from one wall to the other?
Sixth: ? ? ?
Am I missing something?
Do you see something else that’s wrong?
One thing is sure, my future listening room, will not look like this one, and I guarantee that.
Guy 13.
(More coming later on.)
 



Guy 13

Re: I am back with another project. (Listening room)
« Reply #54 on: 14 Jan 2011, 08:49 am »

Hi all Audio Circle members.
Yes, I am back,
but this time no one can call me a complete audio treatment ignorant.
Yes, I know, no one did call me an ignorant, but maybe some of you thought about it… (LOL).
After many, many… Several hours of reading, I am now less ignorant about audio treatment and most important; less confused about conflicting statements of different audio treatment experts.
When reading the results of my findings, you can jump in anytime, if you think I am wrong, because who said I was always right, not me for sure…
I think I will go with a non parallel walls and a slanted ceiling.
Of course, that will depend on the extra money the contractor will charge me for this (exotic) option.
(Exotic to him, he probably never been asked before or in his whole life to build something like that.)
Try to picture this or take a pen and a piece of paper and draw a sketch:
My front wall (Speaker wall) will be 4m/13’, my back wall will be 5m/16’ the length will be 6.5m/21’, now the ceiling will be from 2.55m/8’4” at the speakers end to 3m/9’6” at the other end.
Yes, I know, that’s quite a large room, but if I have the space, then why not?
By having a large listening room, I will avoid many acoustic problems found with a smaller room.
I will buy a SPL meter with a sine waves audio generator to find where the peaks and the dead spots are. Those two items are not expensive. They will cost me less than 100USD.
Corner bass traps. (AC01A)



 
I am not 100% sure which is better, the floor to ceiling approach or the partial one (50%).
I am sure that having the bass trap not symmetrical to the corner is good.
I am sure that the front of the bass trap will have 2 to 4” of rigid fiberglass sheets with the back of the panel being empty; however, I am not sure if I should have some fiberglass sheets on back the walls, behind the bass trap.
Experimenting will not cost much; therefore, I will try the two different approaches and hear the difference.
Absorption panel. (AC02)



 

The same as bass trap, however, the frame will have some slots or openings on all sides, since they will be hanged on the wall,
there will be air spacing between the wall and the fiberglass sheets.
<< A) Back holding thin cotton sheet.
<< B) Two layers of 2” fiberglass rigid sheets.
<< C) Burlap.
<< D) Frame. (Estimated size 24 X 48”.)
         The corners will be rounded for beauty purpose.
Diffusers. (AC01)



 
They should be called reflector and I don’t think I will need them, mainly because of the size of my listening room and the fact that no walls/ceiling will be parallel. However, if I need some, I have two inexpensive way of doing them and most important, I can get here in Vietnam the raw material to build them.
Ceiling absorption panels. (AC03)





This contraption is my idea and the design is based on what I saw on the Internet, it’s similar to an unfinished basement ceiling with the 10X4 beams. Again, easy to build, several panels can be screwed to the ceiling.

Now let’s not forget the floor.
Because the floor will be a Vietnamese floor, which is 12” of armored concrete with ceramic tiles.
I have a few rugs lying around in my house, however, they are IKEA style carpet, therefore not very thick, no long hair and/or fluffy.
I thought of putting under the short hair rug another rug as an under cushion mat. (Worn out ready to be thrown away, anyway…) but that might not be a good idea. I am trying to avoid the expense of buying a new rug or carpet. Carpets and rugs here in Vietnam are expensive, because they are imported.
Vietnam do not make here carpets and rug yet, actually there lots of things that Vietnam still don’t make here, even with the cheap labor.

Of course I will have an electric panel dedicated only for the listening room.
My GR Research V1 and V2 OB speakers will be 5 to 7’ from the wall and 6 to 8’ away from each other and about 3’ from the side wall and everything will be symmetrical.
Listening chair will be about 8’ from the speakers, but all that can be move around for optimization of the audio results.

Well that’s about it, I think I have covered everything.
Any questions, comments, suggestions or anything you want to know? SHOT them at me !
I promise I won’t get upset and/or frustrated… (LOL)
Tomorrow I am having a meeting with the architect to see how he can integrate my listening room to the house.
Wish me good luck, because I will need it, it’s the fifth time he’s redoing the blue prints.
The Vietnamese have been building houses the same way for centuries, therefore, when you ask them something different, they don’t understand what you want and they don’t understand why you want to do it differently, they say:
What’s wrong with our (Vietnamese) way of doing?
I am surprised that after 16 years in this country I have not strangled a single Vietnamese…. (LOL)

Guy 13 
 




     
   

Rocket_Ronny

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Re: I am back with another project. (Listening room)
« Reply #55 on: 14 Jan 2011, 07:13 pm »

I thought I would share with you my old audio room. While not perfect, a little live and was not planning on putting my system there, it gave me the most enjoyment I have ever had in audio.

Notice the space behind the speakers. Now that much space, 12 feet, behind the speakers may not be for everyone, but I did try the speakers at 3, 6, 8, 10 feet from the back wall and 12 was the best.

Also, I had the speakers about 10 feet apart. This gave a huge, realistic, soundstage. I was not watching some t.v. sized audio thingy. This was REAL, full bore, audio nervana.








I did not worry about bass traps as I used the adjoining rooms for that. Because the time delay was over 8 ms I did not need diffusion. All I needed was a wall along side the left speaker. That would have given me a 16' x 26' room and would have been awesome.


When I moved to our new location, the difference is the room was so dramitic that I almost gave up on audio. I can tell you that I barely listen to my system compared to before and I have better gear now.

Here is the current room. If I could get rid of those little walls behind the speakers then it would come a lot closer to my old room.






Rocket_Ronny

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Re: I am back with another project. (Listening room)
« Reply #56 on: 14 Jan 2011, 07:50 pm »

Quote
Waiting for your explanation on that flat ceiling's  No No !

To eliminate standing waves.

If you have two untreated ceilings, one sloped and one flat, go with sloped.


Now, in your case, if you have the ceiling high enough, say a good 9' or more, and can treat it as I see you proposing, then that would work.


Camera sales must be pretty good for you to build such a building. Good for you. Can you share what building costs are over there?


Rocket_Ronny

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Re: I am back with another project. (Listening room)
« Reply #57 on: 14 Jan 2011, 09:24 pm »
 
Quote
Can you share what building costs are over there?


Rocket_Ronny
Here ya go...

That five floor building will cost us around 100,000 USD.
Here in Vietnam the Vietnamese workers works for peanuts... (Ha, ha....)
A construction worker works for less than 10 USD a day, not an hour, 10 USD per day, no wonder I can afford to build such a big house.
However, the ground floor will be rented to pay for the water, electricity and municipal taxes ( Estimated at 50 USD per year.)
By the way, it will probably take 3 to 4 months to build that palace...
Guy 13


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Re: I am back with another project. (Listening room)
« Reply #58 on: 14 Jan 2011, 09:33 pm »
Question for Rocket_Ronnie.  You liked your old room better........it looks to me like a very near field set up, do you currently sit that close to your speakers?  I for one, like near field listening.

Guy 13

Re: I am back with another project. (Listening room)
« Reply #59 on: 15 Jan 2011, 11:33 am »

Hi Rocket Ronny or Ronny the Rocket and all Audio Circle members.
I don’t know how to put the quote(s) in the gray space, so I will put your quotes in the parentheses. <<  >> and comment below the paragraph.

<< I thought I would share with you my old audio room.>>

Sharing that’s the idea of being an Audio Circle member.

<< While not perfect, a little live and was not planning on putting my system there, it gave me the most enjoyment I have ever had in audio. >>
 
A little live you wrote, how about very live, no window curtains, no carpet, no acoustic treatment… To me, your place should have sounded like the echo from the mountains in Switzerland. (LOL)
But what is important it’s not what the others think, it how much enjoyment you get from your audio room. That’s what count the most, let the other think what they want.
Am I right ? 

<< Notice the space behind the speakers. Now that much space, 12 feet, behind the speakers may not be for everyone, but I did try the speakers at 3, 6, 8, 10 feet from the back wall and 12 was the best. >>

Does the type of speakers you had (Don’t recognize the make or model) had something to do with the space required for your speaker to sound at their best?
 
<< Also, I had the speakers about 10 feet apart. This gave a huge, realistic, soundstage. I was not watching some t.v. sized audio thingy. This was REAL, full bore, audio nirvana. >>

I will keep your comments in mind when I will set up my speakers in my future listening room.

<< I did not worry about bass traps as I used the adjoining rooms for that. Because the time delay was over 8 ms I did not need diffusion. All I needed was a wall along side the left speaker. That would have given me a 16' x 26' room and would have been awesome. >>

After reading your comments, I think I might not need much room treatment in my future listening room.
 
<< When I moved to our new location, the difference in the room was so dramatic that I almost gave up on audio. I can tell you that I barely listen to my system compared to before and I have better gear now. >>
Well, why don’t you buy back your previous house? (LOL)

<< Here is the current room. If I could get rid of those little walls behind the speakers then it would come a lot closer to my old room. >>

The two small walls are probably supporting walls? Too bad!
Thanks for sharing your experience with me (And other Audio Circle members) it’s highly appreciated.
Guy 13