[Guy 13]

To eliminate standing waves.

If you have two untreated ceilings, one sloped and one flat, go with sloped.


Now, in your case, if you have the ceiling high enough, say a good 9' or more, and can treat it as I see you proposing, then that would work.


Camera sales must be pretty good for you to build such a building. Good for you. Can you share what building costs are over there?


Rocket_Ronny

Hi Rocket Ronny or Ronny the SUPER Rocket and all Audio Circle members.

The only two parallel walls are the front and rear walls separated by 6.5 meters/21 feet. I don't think those two walls this will create any or very little standing waves... All the other walls and ceiling are slanted or at an angle.
 
My wife's business don't sell cameras, well we sell one (01) Phase One medium format camera (30 to 65 millions pixels) per year. Well sell camera bags, tripods and everything any type of photographers and videographers needs for their work. Yes, it's a profitable buisbness, especially when you are the only one, no competition.
My wife said the building will cost us 70,000 USD, I say it will cost us 150,000 USD. Time will tell who's right, but I can say right away, that in the last 16 years with her, I was right 99.999999% of the time.
To build the new house we will rent our actual house to pay for the morgage.
Guy 13
(More personal questions, don't hesitate, I have nothing to hide...)
 
 

[Rocket_Ronny]

Hi Guy:

In making a mistake in building a audio room I would rather ere on the side of lively than dead. You can always add elements to diffuse or deaden the sound after.

Yes, my old large room was live and did have it's own 1 second reverb. That was it's greatest sin. Although is was a very smooth reverb with no slap echo, thanks to the sloped ceiling. Nor was it hard sounding. Yet, what it did right was awesome.

I tried to make a dedicated sound room in the basement. It was something like 14' x 18' x 8.5' high. When installing the drywall I made 3 - 3' x 4' holes exposing the 6" R20 insulation for sound dampening. What a let down that was.

The difference was like watching a musical concert on a lcd t.v. (small room) and being at a live event in the big room. Living, breathing, musicians right in from of me, LIVE. Verses the punny, enclosed, truncated, t.v. like presentation in the small room. Even with 1 second reverb and all in the large room.

By listening fairly close to the speakers, aprox. 9 feet away, I was able to minimize the room effect. By having most of the surfaces far away from the speakers it was easy to get more than a 8 ms. delay happening from the bounced audio (1' = 1 millisecond aprox.). This helps greatly in removing the blurring effect one gets from the sound bouncing back at you. This gives the open, airy, sound. The small room sounds closed in, confining.

Seems to me I read that Dave Wilson of Wilson audio has a very large sound room. Something like 30' x 40'. Now that would approximate what I had there, only I was very compromised by where I had to have the system and could not dampen it like I would have liked. I am married after all and Patti is very good to have lived with 6 guage Fulton Gold cables running across the floor and weird looking speakers.

The speakers in the picture are the NewForm Research 645s. The tall part is a ribbon line source the bass had two Scan Speak 6.5 woofers. They always started conversations when people would come to visit. One person thought the base cab. was the speaker and the line source was some kind of disco light. If you want to learn about defraction, or lack thereof, listen to a pair.

The positioning of them that far off the wall was not speaker dependent. I had several speakers in that room (Celestion 2 way book shelfs, Apogees, Acoustat 1+1's, Horn Shops, and they all sounded best there.

All in all, I have only heard one room that I enjoyed better and it was large (at least aprox. 20' x 28' with tall sloped ceiling). It was much better damped than mine, yet not dead.


Rocket_live not dead_Ronny   at least not yet.

[Guy 13]

Hi all Audio Circle members.
Many of you that have been following/reading my (Hopefully Interesting) topics already know that I want to start an audio business this year in Vietnam that will be called Audio 13.
(Thirteen, because I was born on a Friday 13. Lucky me !)

I am spending lots of my spare time on that project and I think I am now heading in the right direction.
I had plenty of help/advices from many Audio Circle members and I thank all of them for that.

Some time ago, I have decided that Audio 13 will offer to the audiophiles, exclusively tube amplifiers (SE, SET and Push Pull.) and for the speakers, most of my offering will be high efficiency Open Baffle speakers.

For the speakers, I have stopped my search, since I’ve already found a good supplier by the name of Danny at GR Research.
V1, V2 and N3 will be my first offering; however, I might later on add one or two extra models.

The only thing that I don’t like with GR Research drivers is that they are not what I called high efficiency drivers. But that’s O.K. as long as they are not in the 85db range and for Danny’s low efficiency woofers; I will be using his very affordable SA-1 plate amplifier.

Now, for the tube amplifiers, it gets a little more complicated.
I want amplifiers Made in USA.
The Vietnamese like products from Japan, Germany, Italy and USA.
They also like well know brand products, like:
Marrantz, Denon, Sony, Tannoy, etc…
Therefore it will be very difficult for me to introduce a new and unknown product like Audio 13 to the audiophiles, even if it’s a good product.
In the Vietnamese mentality, if it’s unknown to them, it can’t be good.

As you can see; I will have lots of marketing work to do, but that not impossible, because 15 years ago with my wife’s business, all the products that we now represent (More than 20) were completely unknown to the Vietnamese photographers before I introduce them in Vietnam and guess what?

Today most of them are number one selling brands.
Hard work, lots of time and money spent to arrive at that today.
To come back to the amplifiers, I also want point to point wiring, no circuit board, inexpensive tubes (6L6, KT77, E34L, etc…)
Up to now I only found two companies that can supply me what I want at a price that I want to pay, don’t forget that I have to add to my purchase cost; transport from USA to Vietnam and custom tax.

I am sure you want to know who those two companies are.
Well the first one, you know already, it’s Niteshade Audio, however, he needs to improve the look of his amplifiers, and that’s only because I am very demanding, not because his amplifiers are not nice looking.

The other company is Wright Audio, more precisely, the model Lolita. Nice looking SE amplifier.
I know, the Lolita only have 7wpc output power, that’s not much, however, mated to GR Research V1 at 97db, that’s more than enough for a small to medium listening room and if my customers need more juice, Niteshade Audio has a 40wpc push pull unit.

With the Niteshade Audio amplifier, I will be able to add my Audio 13 logo, therefore, the potential buyers, won’t be able to by-pass me and buy directly from my supplier, as for Wright Audio, I am now trying to have a referral agreement with them.
Later on, if the business shows some success, I will had some products, such as interconnects, speaker cables, however, no expensive power cables, because I don’t believe in those piece of exotic wires…

A thing that will play in my favor will be my acoustically treated listening room, that will really make my amplifiers and speakers sound good.

I hope to be always finically independent to be able to afford not to sell my audio systems to audiophiles that don’t want to spend some money to acoustically treat the room where the audio system will be installed.
I don’t want the customers to come back to me and say that the system he bought from me sounded better in my listening room than in theirs.

I now know that the listening room is as important as the audio system itself and a minimum of money and work should be spent and done to make the audio system sound right.
     
Well, I hope my Audio 13 business will be in full operation before the end of 2011.

As they often say:
I will not quit my day time job,
meaning that I will keep working for my wife, because my wife’s business is where I get the money to invest in Audio 13.

Any and all comments are welcome.

Guy 13.   

[HT cOz]

I am reminded of something I once heard on a TV show about super cars.  "Want to make 1 million dollars building sports cars?  Spend 2 million!"

Ok that said if you must do it, this is what I would do.  Get Danny to design something like O3 with a single woofer.  Think simple 2 way in a box.  This covers speakers.

For amps, I would think about something like this http://connexelectronic.com/product_info.php/products_id/119?osCsid=fj64qeg39bdhcknc664s19ov33 All that is needed is a good looking box.  These things perform... Period.  Don't mess with tube amps and point to point wiring.  Who is going to trouble shoot problems with those amps?  People in the USA?  Yuck.

Build synergy between the products and start small.  I think what I have just described would have good synergy and good value. 

Don't expand your line up until you have mastered this simple 2 way plus amp model. 

As always just my opion.

Robert

[Guy 13]

I am reminded of something I once heard on a TV show about super cars.  "Want to make 1 million dollars building sports cars?  Spend 2 million!"

Ok that said if you must do it, this is what I would do.  Get Danny to design something like O3 with a single woofer.  Think simple 2 way in a box.  This covers speakers.

For amps, I would think about something like this http://connexelectronic.com/product_info.php/products_id/119?osCsid=fj64qeg39bdhcknc664s19ov33 All that is needed is a good looking box.  These things perform... Period.  Don't mess with tube amps and point to point wiring.  Who is going to trouble shoot problems with those amps?  People in the USA?  Yuck.

Build synergy between the products and start small.  I think what I have just described would have good synergy and good value. 

Don't expand your line up until you have mastered this simple 2 way plus amp model. 

As always just my opion.

Robert

Hi HT cOz (Robert) and all Audio Circle members.
I must not do it, I want to do it.
I dream about doing it !
In the second half of my working life, I have always done what I wanted and done what I love doing.
In no way, up to now I was obligated to do something I don’t enjoy doing.
I love audio stuff, that’s why I want to start Audio 13.
Even if I don’t make enough money to live with that business, at least it will be a hobby for me.

That being said.
Why would Danny design a simple OB speaker for me?
He already did it with the V1 and V2.
If I want, I can make the V1 and V2 with single bass driver and that would be super easy for me to do.
By the way, what is a: O3 ? ? ?

Obviously, you have not read carefully what I wrote.
I want to sell tube amplifiers, not solid state amplifiers.
I love the tubes; I love the tube glowing in the dark. I love the sound of the tube.
That’s what I want to sell; I don’t see anything complicated about that. I will not design tube amplifiers, just sell them, but they will be built according to my specifications.

Point to point wiring guarantee that the amplifier will be repairable in 25 years from now, even if at that time I might be in my new underground house at the cemetery. (LOL)
I will be trouble shooting the tube amplifiers myself, because I have studied tube electronics and graduated from Teccart Institute in 1967 and at the time, we were studying tubes.
Here in Vietnam, I also repair electronic flashes that my wife companies sell. Please read again my last post, I already wrote all that.

This is the third company that I have started since I left school and all my companies have started small and stayed small and I am not about ready to change that with Audio 13.

I think my Audio 13 offering will be limited to only a few models that I already know and own.

I am not new in the audio field and I am not new at doing business, I thank you for your advices, however, I think everything is under control, I am, only sharing my thoughts about my new project, however, I am always open to any constructive ideas.
Thanks again for taking the time to write.

Guy 13
From the soon to be launch Audio 13
 


 

[Guy 13]

Hi Danny and all Audio Circle members.
Today I got my GR Research - N3 kit, just in time for the Vietnamese Lunar New Year. (To me it’s like a Christmas gift…)
Danny’s kit was brought to me from Seattle by a relative of my wife that came to Vietnam to visit her family for the Vietnamese Lunar New Year.
The N3 kit was well packed, nothing was damaged and nothing was missing. Thanks Danny.
AC10



The only thing that tarnish a little the near perfect score are the small stickers on 5 of the 6 coils that fell off, but looking at the drawing included with the kit, I could easily identify which was which.

I’ve noticed that the driver’s baskets are made of…
Well, look like plastic, but I’m sure it’s better than some cheap plastic. Danny would never sell us cheap stuff !
AC11



Other than that, the little drivers look quite small, but nice. According to what I read on Audio Circle, they should sound as good as they look.

I don’t like the solid wire that Danny always supply with his kits, but I will use it, because Danny said it’s good and when Danny says something, it’s like God’s word. (LOL)

Starting February 2nd our business will be closed for a week for the Vietnamese Lunar New Year, which means I will have some free time to put together the N-3 kit.

With my N-3 kit, I have received a jig saw blades kit, with a total of 12 different blades, plus a big bottle of Elmer’s wood glue and some other tools, unfortunately, I could not push my luck to the point of getting from the relative a router and a circular saw, that way too heavy for her luggage. 
I have ordered all that stuff from Home Depot via my wife’s nephew in Seattle.

I am very anxious to hear what the N3 sounds like.
The N3 will get some help in the bass department from my V2 subs.
AC12 – AC13





My set up will look like this. Any comments are welcome.
AC 02



I am anxious to hear how my Niteshade Audio - 10 wpc amplifier will drive the timid 91db efficient N3.

Stay tune, more coming in about one week from now.
Guy 13
Audio 13

I forgot to mention something. 
I have asked Danny to send me with my N3 kit order a sample of the NoRez to see what it looks like.
Well, Danny sent me a 4 X 4" piece of NoRez (Thanks) and now I can touch and feel the quality of the material. I like the peel off back of the product.
What I was using here in Vietnam required Made in Vietnam contact glue, which is very messy.
May I mention that the Made in Vietnam high density foam that I have been using, look and feel denser when you touch it/squezze it with you fingers and one other thing, the Made in Vietnam stuff is ten times lower in price.
It does not mean I will not buy and use Danny's NoRez, it only means that the two products are different and I just wanted to mention it.
I am sure many of you thought that the foam here was very soft and then, useless. 
 

[HT cOz]

Guy I hope you realize that you can't take a kit and change the layout of the drivers without re-working the entire network.  The exact spacing of the original driver layout has been "programed" into the network to get the accoustic centers lined up.  Not to mention that the floor bounce and ceiling bounce are also taken into account in the design of the network... Many worries for Audio 13 if this is what you have in mind.

[Guy 13]

Guy I hope you realize that you can't take a kit and change the layout of the drivers without re-working the entire network.  The exact spacing of the original driver layout has been "programed" into the network to get the accoustic centers lined up.  Not to mention that the floor bounce and ceiling bounce are also taken into account in the design of the network... Many worries for Audio 13 if this is what you have in mind.

Hi HT cOz and all Audio Circle members.
I realize that I can not change some things or everything around as I wish, if I want to get the same performances as it was originally design for.
I have been around on this planet for 63 years to realize that.
Thanks for your advice.

In my alternative version, I am trying to keep all drivers as close as possible to each others.

Floor and ceiling bounce are taking into account at the manufacturer listening room, however, each customer as a different acoustic from his listening room.

Don’t worry about Audio 13 and me, if it does not give the performances as per the original specs, I can always put the drivers in the original N3 TL enclosures.

My design or should I write, my version/alternative of the original N3 kit is a little the same as the OB7 but the drivers are in a pyramidal shape and the woofers are the ones from my V2.

I’ve noticed that each time I change Danny’s original design and post my comments on Audio Circle; there is always an Audio Circle member that brings up that argument about everything as to be by the book and that I cannot change the original design.
My God, is there a law against doing that?
What about the fun of experimenting?
 
You must be new at Audio Circle or you never bother to read or don’t follow all my topics.
You should know by now that I have changed all the original designs of Danny’s kits I bought from him. (V1, V2 and now N3)
After the kits are completed, if it doesn’t give me satisfaction, I change it to the original design.
Why not doing it right from the start?
Because I don’t want to, I want to experiment.
Changing things, cost little (In my case: Lying around pieces of MDF) and some quality time.

I have also noticed that if it’s not Danny’s design, most of the time, Audio Circle members don’t question the experimentation of other members.
By the way: Corndog 71 did some ESA Clarity capacitors switching on the crossover of the speakers Danny sold him and Danny said:
Very cool man.

There was also that Audio Circle member that did some experimentation with a Visaton B200 and Alpha bass drivers.
Yes I know, his design was not Danny’s design, so what?

All you perfectionists and by the book guys, keep posting your thoughts and advices, I like it…

Well, I will now go get my tools and start some wood cutting, I am on vacation for a week. (Vietnamese Lunar New Year.)
Guy 13

[S Clark]

Guy,
Do, and design, what makes you happy.  It's your money and time.  If you seriously do want to design speakers, you might try to invest in a measuring system.  They aren't cheap, but if you are thinking about doing this as a business, it would be a logical next step.
By the way, one of my high schools students put together a design similar to your sketch.  I really didn't think it had a prayer, but the FR curve actually measured rather mediocre, much better than I thought it would.

Scott

[Guy 13]

Guy,
Do, and design, what makes you happy.  It's your money and time.  If you seriously do want to design speakers, you might try to invest in a measuring system.  They aren't cheap, but if you are thinking about doing this as a business, it would be a logical next step.
By the way, one of my high schools students put together a design similar to your sketch.  I really didn't think it had a prayer, but the FR curve actually measured rather mediocre, much better than I thought it would.

Scott

Hi Scott and all Audio Circle members.
Thanks for telling me to do and design what ever makes me happy, that was my intention, because in my life (In Vietnam), there are too many things that makes me unhappy ! (LOL)

Then, why stay in Vietnam you might ask?
Well, it’s like I have very little choice.
(I will spare you the details.)

It’s my money and my time you say.
You are right on that.

I don’t want to design speakers; I only want to try different things/approaches to see what I will offer to the Audio 13 customers and what I will offer the Audio 13 customers, is what I would buy myself.

Don’t forget that my future business will be at first a hobby and I intend to have a year or two of trial period to see how it goes.
I still have my wife business to survive if Audio 13 doesn’t generate enough money.

I will invest a minimal amount of money in measuring instruments, I’ve managed to get the exclusive representation for Bellari/Rolls audio products and I also have access to other audio lines.

I don’t have yet a precise opening date for Audio 13;
I still want to try a few other things to see which products will be on my Audio 13 list of offerings.
 
I am not looking at making millions with this new Audio 13 business, if I break even, I will be happy.

Thanks for your advice.
Guy 13

 

[Danny Richie]

FYI, this configuration will require a new crossover design:



For instance, the crossover for the upper section of the OB-5 and OB-7 are completely different than the crossover for an N3. The open baffle completely changes the response.

Plus in the network of the OB-5 and OB-7 (on the mids) there is a high pass network that pulls the lows off of the mids and not keeps them from receiving low frequency signals. Without that there they would bottom out real easy.

Parts count for the woofer circuit on the N3 is 3. Parts count for the mid circuit in the OB-5 and OB-7 is 8.

[Danny Richie]

Well, Danny sent me a 4 X 4" piece of NoRez (Thanks) and now I can touch and feel the quality of the material. I like the peel off back of the product.
What I was using here in Vietnam required Made in Vietnam contact glue, which is very messy.
May I mention that the Made in Vietnam high density foam that I have been using, look and feel denser when you touch it/squezze it with you fingers and one other thing, the Made in Vietnam stuff is ten times lower in price.
It does not mean I will not buy and use Danny's NoRez, it only means that the two products are different and I just wanted to mention it.
I am sure many of you thought that the foam here was very soft and then, useless. 

The real key to what No Rez does isn't the foam. It is a damper.

[Guy 13]

FYI, this configuration will require a new crossover design:

Hi Danny and all Audio Circle members.
What parts do you recommend I replace in the crossover and what's the cost?
It's when I read something like what you wrote, that I want to go with a full range driver w/o crossover...
Guy 13

[Danny Richie]

I just modified my post from above BYT and addd some more to it.

It's when I read something like what you wrote, that I want to go with a full range driver w/o crossover...

Just because you use a full range driver doesn't mean that you don't need a corrective circuit.

99% of all full range drivers need a corrective circuit of some kind.

For instance, that last 12" full range driver that I tried (it was sent to me as a sample from the owner of the company) needed 8 crossover parts to correct its response.

[Danny Richie]

This is one of my M-130 woofers. The Red line is in a small ported box with an 8" wide front baffle. The Green line is in an open baffle that is also only 8" wide.



Here is the N1 crossover using the same M-130 woofer. This is a small ported cabinet with a 12.5" tall and 8" wide baffle.



The crossover design is the key to a smooth response.

Here is a phase reversal test using the OB-7 mids and woofers.



This is taken from 55 inches away. Output levels below 200Hz really can't be accurately measured at this short of a distance. They really don't roll off like this. I am just too close to catch it and I have to gate the time window to keep the room response from effecting the measurement.

Note the response of the two mids (Red line). This takes 8 components. Three of them make up the cap value at the front of the network.

The Green line are the lower woofers.

The Blue line is with them acoustically in phase, and the Purple line is with them acoustically out of phase.

[ebag4]

Hi Danny and all Audio Circle members.
What parts do you recommend I replace in the crossover and what's the cost?
It's when I read something like what you wrote, that I want to go with a full range driver w/o crossover...
Guy 13

Guy,
If you are wanting to use the drivers in an N3 for an open baffle center channel Danny has another speaker that would more closely meet your needs from a crossover standpoint.  Danny designed a speaker called the OB5 that is open baffle and uses the same drivers as the N3.  Here is the response in an older thread to someone wanting to build an OB center using these drivers:

I see the need for the center as well. If watching a movie or TV, the center will anchor the sound to the center regardless of seating position.

There are several ways to go and match the sound of the OB-5's.

First off you can rotate an OB-5 onto its side and move the woofers to a configuration that puts one on each end. You then rotate the tweeter 90 degrees as well. You can do this with no crossover changes too. Since the lower woofers are only covering from 200Hz and down, moving them has little effect.

Since the tweeter is only 2.125" tall it does not have a very limited vertical dispersion so beaming in the vertical range is not an issue. It has great vertical dispersion.

Laying the OB-5 on its side will limit the horizontal coverage area due to the center to center spacing distances of the mid-woofers. If you sit within 20 degrees off axis each way then you are home free. If you sit further off axis than that you will begin to notice a slight dip in the 900 to 1000Hz range.

For what you are trying to do you would only need the MTM section of the OB5 (which you have in the N3 drivers), the crossover components for the OB5 should do what you want assuming you are wanting to cross over to the V2 woofers around 200 Hz.

edit: I seem to recall that the N3 uses a "Deep Cup" Neo3PDR (planer tweeter), this may or may not change the crossover requirements of the OB5 MTM to work properly, Danny would have to answer that one.

Best,
Ed

[Danny Richie]

To do what you are looking at and make it work then you need to mount the drivers in an open baffle MTM only 8" wide just like the OB-5 and OB-7.

Then use the OB-5/OB-7 MTM network.

Then use the lower section of the V-2 and be sure to fold the woofers in at the 45 degree angle just like the plans of the V-2 to keep the baffle width down as you will need to match up the 10.5" wide lower section of the V-2 (plus side panels) to the 8" wide upper section of the MTM.

And FYI, that would sound really good!

[Danny Richie]

I’ve noticed that the driver’s baskets are made of…
Well, look like plastic, but I’m sure it’s better than some cheap plastic. Danny would never sell us cheap stuff !

Here is the frame of a M-130 woofer:



The high strength polymer is stronger than an equivalent stamped steel or cast frame. It also doesn't ring or transmit a resonance to the front baffle like metal frames do. Plus it surface mounts, so the front baffle thickness does not have to be reduced in order to mount it. It's awesome!

[jtwrace]

From my injection molding experience I know what polymer I'd pick.   

[Guy 13]

To do what you are looking at and make it work then you need to mount the drivers in an open baffle MTM only 8" wide just like the OB-5 and OB-7.

Then use the OB-5/OB-7 MTM network.

Then use the lower section of the V-2 and be sure to fold the woofers in at the 45 degree angle just like the plans of the V-2 to keep the baffle width down as you will need to match up the 10.5" wide lower section of the V-2 (plus side panels) to the 8" wide upper section of the MTM.

And FYI, that would sound really good!

Hi Danny and all Audio Circle members.

After reading all the above, I've decided to put aside the N3 kit project and wait for some more money to order from Ruben (Out of the woods) a N3 TL flat pack, so I can mount the N3 kit in it.

During my only one week of real vacation I have once a year, I wanted to work on my N3 kit, but thanks to you guys, now I have nothing to do...

I am really getting tired of all that stuff, everything I want to do, turn out to be more complicated than what I want. I hate complicated stuff...

If it gets that complicated every time I buy something from GR Research, I will just cancel my Audio 13 project.
 
It's not like I need that new business to survive, I still have my wife's business and I can always find another hobby, like photography.

Guy 13