[neobop]

I was a little confused by your feelings about the shibata, but I think I now get it. 

Beryllium is more rigid than aluminum and it's also the lightest cantilever material so it's more detailed and faster, but not necessarily brighter.  It would tend to be more extended and less bright, but that might depend on the voicing, resonances, of a particular cart motor/stylus combination.

The shibata was the first extended contact tip developed for 4-ch playback which requires decoding info embedded in the groove at 30KHz.  Most 4-ch carts are low inductance/shibata to insure this requirement is met.  A couple were .2 x .7 (sharp) elliptical, but that tip is really less suited for 4-ch.
The thing about shibata is the front and rear facets are cut at different angles.  Because contact with the groove is made while a record is spinning the contact patch is curved rather than a straight line.  I believe this is what gives shibata a soft/sweet character - extended but not aggressive.  I also think this is due to phase and not frequency response.  Still, maybe not the best choice for your requirements.

You might have maxed out matching this cart to your system.  An aluminum/ML would be another obvious choice.  If the bass is too "big" irrespective of the treble, then maybe a boron cantilever would be better.  Boron is a little heavier than beryllium, but more rigid.  It is even more exact and less warm.  In general, ruby/sapphire would tend to sound more like boron.

I think the Stanton 680 you picked up will be much worse.  IMO you're wasting your time/money with this one.  It might work out better for someone with a bright system.  Likewise the Shure M97.
If after evaluation of the LS500 you feel you need something brighter, there are other models that should do it for you.  The 440 or 150MLX come to mind.  There's also loading options, but it's usually difficult to change up to a higher value. 

I suggest checking out the LS500 as-is, and we can figure it out from there.
neo
 

Neo,
My system is slightly rolled off on top, so I'm not sure what to expect from the Beryllium cantilever. In your experience, what are the benefits that you have been able to realize from such an upgrade? Is the benefit mostly in the top end or do the benefits show throughout the spectrum?
Don grb

[dlaloum]

The benefits of berillium cantilevers are:

1) Increased rigidity

This means it flexes less and transmits more of the signal to the generator.... The flex is noticeable as the standard drop in signal around the 2kHz to 8kHz region - the lost energy is emitted as harmonic distortion at various related frequencies, and although there is a drop in those frequencies, the increase in harmonics may in fact provide additional richness /romance... ( a bit of that "tube" effect?)
So a more rigid cantilever should be more neutral, and slightly "faster", possibly a bit dryer...

2) Decreesed effective tip mass

The ETM has impacts all over the place...
First of all decreased inertia means it can track better, so reduced inner groove distortion, and associated sibilants, ability to track dynamics (like that extreme example the 1812...).
Second the resonance is raised higher - and along with that resonance the phase change that accompanies it - as the phase change is moved outside the audible band - or to a higher less objectionable frequency within the audible band, the imaging / soundstage should improve along with it, as the ear uses phase to decipher positioning cues.

Third - moving the resonance higher also means that the raw performance of the cantilever remains more linear to a higher frequency (extreme examples like the Technics EPC100 and the Karat series move the resonance to well over 50kHz) - the end result being a cartridge that sounds a lot like digital in terms of its neutrality and pureness while being totally analogue....

I probably should dig up some of my cantilever measurements to show things graphically, but that would take me some hours to put together..... maybe later.

bye for now

David

[neobop]

Don grb,
Last night I got ready to transplant the 140 into a round plug.  The only round plugs I have are on a 15SS, 20SS, and the fake Precept.  These all have a stylus and I'm not messing with the beryllium ones.  I started to scrape the paint off the PC550 compliance screw.  It was kind of weird because the screw appeared to be recessed further down than usual.  Turns out it wasn't paint, just some white glue-like powdery substance and there is no compliance screw, not even a press fit collar.  I would venture to say this not only isn't a PC550, it isn't even an AT.  I should have sent it back when I first saw it.  The cantilever looked too fat and shiny.

I was going to join you in this Frankencart adventure, but .....   
neo

[Grbluen]

I totally understand. It's not worth the risk.
Don grb

[dlaloum]

Hi guys,

I just remembered the AT110 (going through some other threads) - pretty much a higher quality AT95...

Neo have you done the AT95 stylus transfer into an AT105/110/115 body?

I have a feeling they are the same fitting...

bye for now

David

[neobop]

Hi guys,

I just remembered the AT110 (going through some other threads) - pretty much a higher quality AT95...

Neo have you done the AT95 stylus transfer into an AT105/110/115 body?

I have a feeling they are the same fitting...

bye for now

David

Did we discuss this before?  I seem to remember some conjecture.  No, I've never played with a 110, the current offering.
http://www.lpgear.com/product/ATC110E.html

LC-OFC wire no less.  But it doesn't look like a 95/CA (V1) with 4.5mV.  It does look like a 3400 series body - prob the same plug.  They both come with a bonded .4 x .7 and cu is a little higher, but that would depend on the stylus anyway. 

This might be a winner with the right stylus, hard to say.  Do you know the rest of the electrical specs?  I would guess the sound would be a little more mellow assuming higher inductance, and bass/dynamics more prominent.  Any more info?
neo

[dlaloum]

AT110e

R= 516ohm
Z= 603mH

As an aside, I was looking through my database of cartridge stats....

here is what I have for the AT180ML- one of AT's cost no object efforts:
R= 310ohm
Imp= 1400ohm
Z= 240mH

In the Audio technical 1/2" body families this is an odd generator!
I have the AT160ML recorded as 490mH/790ohm , and the AT170ML I have no data for...

Still without turntable at the temporary lodgings.... (while renovation is happening at home... for as many months as it takes) - and nowhere to put the Sota RCM... not to mention that the RCM is so loud that I cannot use it when others are home (and I usually wear Noise Reduction headphones when I use it....)
A nice compact ultrasound unit would be nice....

[neobop]

AT110e

R= 516ohm
Z= 603mH

As an aside, I was looking through my database of cartridge stats....

here is what I have for the AT180ML- one of AT's cost no object efforts:
R= 310ohm
Imp= 1400ohm
Z= 240mH

In the Audio technical 1/2" body families this is an odd generator!
I have the AT160ML recorded as 490mH/790ohm , and the AT170ML I have no data for...

Still without turntable at the temporary lodgings.... (while renovation is happening at home... for as many months as it takes) - and nowhere to put the Sota RCM... not to mention that the RCM is so loud that I cannot use it when others are home (and I usually wear Noise Reduction headphones when I use it....)
A nice compact ultrasound unit would be nice....

Good one!
The 110 looks like a nice inexpensive cart.  Assuming that's a 3400 series body, has lots of stylus upgrade options like the 95.

I don't think I've seen that 180 info before.  The 170 and 180 have the same output - 4mV.

The 160 is the same generator as 440ML, 155LC and others.  Looks like it was a go-to 1st or 2nd tier motor for a long while and largely responsible for AT overly bright house sound gestalt.  With a beryllium cantilever it sounds pretty damn good to me.  With an alum cantilever I have to load it at 30K. 
Not exactly sure when the 440 was introduced, but in the '80s it was used to compete with CD.  Looks like they mimicked the wrong character of early digital.  Why in the world would they do that?

Wow, I never heard a Sota RCM and hope I never do.  If it's like a VPI - in a box, the sound probably reverberates inside.  Maybe you could put it inside another acoustically treated box?  You'd probably have to vent the box.  Maybe against a wall w/acoustic treatment. 
The ultrasound unit sounds like a better idea. 

Hope they finish your house soon.  Good luck with all that.
neo 

[Grbluen]

Hi All,
I have a 13EA on hand, but I haven't been able to land a 12 series cart. What are the major differences in sound between the two cartridges?

Don grb

[neobop]

You mean a 12S or Sa?

The shibata ones were made for 4-ch and are low inductance and lower output.  Specs are more like the 15/20.  Generally more extended as 4-ch info was encoded at 30KHz.  The 12E variants are the same motor as the 13Ea.
neo

[Grbluen]

Yes Neo,
I should have been more specific. I'm speaking of the low inductance 12 series. I'm trying to get a handle on the differences mostly because the specs for the LS500 are 5 hz- 45 khz.
Something isn't quite adding up here.

[neobop]

The 12S, Sa are the low inductance 12 series.  The 12E, 13Ea is higher inductance.

I no almost nothing about the LS500 except for what you told me and other LS models having 4.2mV out.

Didn't you measure resistance at 1200 ohms?  If the cart came with a beryllium cantilever and LC tip, 45K could be possible (I think).

Have any more specs for the cart?  It's starting to sound like Precept 440, except that's supposed to have around 500 ohm resistance.

The Precept 110 has higher resistance/inductance, but I don't think response goes to 45K. 

neo

[Grbluen]

http://www.vinylengine.com/library/audio-technica/ls500.shtml

This is all the info I've found.
Don

[neobop]

I can't access anything in the VE library, so what does it say?

[Grbluen]

LS500
5hz - 45khz
4.2 mV
.75 - 1.75g
Within 1.0 db
31db @ 1 khz
21db @ 10 khz
47 k Ohms
100 - 200pf
Linear contact

[neobop]

LS500
5hz - 45khz
4.2 mV
.75 - 1.75g
Within 1.0 db
31db @ 1 khz
21db @ 10 khz
47 k Ohms
100 - 200pf
Linear contact

That's it?  Nothing about the cantilever?  Is this the owners manual?

The 13Ea has response to 30K w/alum cantilever.  This doesn't shed much light.  You said you picked up a 13Ea.  Have you listened to it yet? 
Output is the same and this vintage seemed to come in 2 flavors - high and low inductance.  The resistance of the 13 should be around the same as the 500, maybe you could double check.  Could a beryllium LC change the 13Ea enough to get 5 - 45K? 

This looks suspiciously like Precept.  Why don't you send me one and I'll check it out?   

Just kidding.  By most accounts the higher model Precept has less resistance.  This is an AT mysterycart.  Seems like a high end 13, but the only  round plug models with that response were low output (2.7) and Precept.
neo

[Grbluen]

Both exemplars that I have of what I am assuming are the original styli are hollow Aluminum cantilevers. One shows signs of oxidation, the other does not. Both are tapered.
Don

[dlaloum]

The resistance will tell us what family it falls into...

From the pics in the manual, it looks like a rebranded AT12e

They used to play fast and loose with specs.... note that it does not claim +/-3db - so 45khz may well be +5db and -10db - probably measured at 100pf.

Whereas most neutral setup might achieve +/-3db 50-15khz.... probably at 150pf

The tapered Al styli tend to have resonance peak at around 16 to 19khz -standalone that peak tends to be circa 8 to 10db - but with the right highish inductance to pull that down, response becomes almost flat up to the resonance before starting to drop off.

For the quad cartridges, 100k R load would boost the resonance further pulling the HF response up in the process - and the resonance was often "placed" at 16khz - the main stereo bands were low pass filtered at 15khz and the FM encoded rear channels started at 18khz..... so the resonance at 17khz would be perfect and of little concern...

So similarly engineered styli would work for stereo in high inductance bodies and for quad in low inductance ones.....

[neobop]

I don't know.  Even if the spec isn't flat, AT didn't list them like that.  Recently they spec everything 20 to 20K.  Before they started doing that, carts like the 150MLX is to 30K with 350mH.  440ML is to 32K and 490mH.

It's mostly only the 4-ch that were between 10 or 15 to 45K and they had 500 ohm with either an alum or beryllium.  Even carts like the 170 and 22 -25 didn't spec to 45K.   Maybe the resistance is out of spec and it's a 4-ch type.

There was a DR500LC and a VS240LC with the same fr resp. Most parameters unknown - one had 500 ohms and the other was beryllium, I think.
neo

[dlaloum]

Most of those specced to 45k sound like Quad cartridges - they are all line contact...  the 45kHz is the required bandwidth for Quad CD4...

I wonder whether those 45kHz bandwidth specs are all measured at 100pf/100kOhm (the Quad CD4 loading standard)?

The LS500 looks like an AT12 - and perhaps it is in fact a rebadged AT12sa with an LC rather than Shibata stylus?