[Bghead8che]

Hello Folks,

I have a HT room that I want to get treated.  I submitted my info for the GIK room analysis but felt like I was pulling teeth in order to get the basic advice I needed.  If I posted my room here is there someone that could help me or perhaps someone I could pay for an evaluation of my layout? 

My budget is around $1.5K.  I just need basic room advice on what panels to buy and were to put them.  I'm not expecting a complete 6 hours analysis with CAD drawings and waterfall plots.... just basic room advice.

Thanks in advance!

[Devil Doc]

That's the exact opposite of my experience with GIK. We did get to the point however where I was told to stop and listen for a while and then do some measurements. I got the impression they didn't want me to spend money needlessly or over treat my room.

Doc

[bpape]

Sorry you had a bad experience.  I do tend to try to really look at the situation and setup and optimize that as much as possible before getting into specific treatment recommendations.  Please feel free to email me again with your concerns and I'll be happy to make some specific recommendations.

Bryan

[drummermitchell]

Same here as Devil Doc.
As far as my understanding of a good basic starting point would be to put bass trapping in as many corners as possible(ceiling+floor wall corners also).
Then first side wall speaker reflections,backwall.
I 'm not sure where you would start with measuring,I'd assume before you install panels to see what the room is doing and go from there(before and after).
I of course started trapping without measuring and have been totally impressed so far.
Still curious as to what measuring would tell me though as they say you can't have enough bass traps but you can have too many mid high traps as it would perhaps deaden the room.
I have lots of bass traps and do just my first reflections with Gik 242's(want to try diffusion)there just to hear the difference.
I find(GIK)Bryan great to deal with,he'll even talk to me no matter how trivial my Q's are .

Oh,I didn't see you there, Bryan,mornin.Got the custom soffit trap THX.

[SoCalWJS]

Same as the others - great experiences with GIK and also had the pleasant experience of bending Bryan's ear for quite awhile at RMAF once upon a time.

Post your room here and the Acoustics circle for maximum exposure - you'll get several different opinons, though, and need to figure out which way you want to go.

GIK is a very good company with knowledgeable staff.

Beware of responses from those with minimal experience/training (IMHO YMMV etc.)

[gregcss]

Are bass traps in the front corners a good starting point for ALL rooms or is that room dependent?

[bpape]

Not necessarily always but many times, yes.  Broadband bass control is generally a good starting point along with addressing early reflections via either absorption or diffusion.

Bryan

[dm]

I want to echo that I have also had good experiences with GIK.  In my case I have a combination of GIK and other vendor and some DIY treatments in place.  GIK consulting did not seem to care that I was a multivendor customer and they helped me thru many emails before during and after my install.

[Bghead8che]

Hi Guys,

If any of you, including Bryan, would be willing to help me that would be great!

I've posted a few images of my room.  The front of room, back, and a full view.  I also posted the dimensions of the room.  The room is located on the 2nd floor of my house with the garage below. 

Mainly I am interested in receiving opinions on which GIK products to buy, how many, and where to place them.  The room will be used 50% of the time for watching movies and 50% of the time for listening to music.  I've noticed in the past that bass can sound "thick" and "boomy".  Also, I am very sensitive to brightness and my goal is to take edge off the brightness w/out ending up with a dull sounding room.   Despite reading up on acoustics I simply don't have the expertise to know where to put the treatments, what kind to buy, and how many to use.

Target budget is $1500 but I have no problem with going up or down if needed to obtain the best sound.  I'm putting nearly $40K into equipment so I don't wan to just slap a few panels up.  I really want some advice from people with experience, as you can imagine!

Thanks guys!

(it looks like the HT layout image is hard to read.  Here is a direct link: http:/www.omega-direct.net/2012/images/ht.gif )

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[bpape]

Rear corners are out for obvious reasons (door and window).  Don't know what kind of speakers you're using to be able to determine what if any front wall treatment would be appropriate.  If the front is a closet and not used much we can do either Tri Traps or Soffit Traps in the front corners.

242 or 244 panels on the side walls will help tame things a bit though diffusion is another option for the music portion - absorption would be better for HT. 

Looks like the seating could/should come forward a bit.

Rear wall I would use 3 Monster panels with our scatter plates to get both some bass control in the back of the room, damp things slightly, and also offer some diffusion in the rear for a more spacious soundfield both for 2 channel and home theater usage.

The ceiling appears to be higher than 8' so additionally some Grid Fusors high on the wall spaced out around the perimeter will help with slap and flutter echo and make the room sound bigger without removing more energy from the room.

Bryan

[Bghead8che]

Bryan,

The speakers are as follows:

Fronts:  Salk Soundscape 8   http://www.salksound.com/soundscape%208%20home.htm
Center: Salk Soundscape C   http://www.salksound.com/soundscape%20center%20-%20home.htm
Rears: Salk Soundscape M7   http://www.salksound.com/soundscape%20m7%20monitor%20-%20home.htm

Considering the room is 50/50 HT and Audio (CDs, streaming music) would you recommend I go with 244s or 242s or a diffusor?  How many panels would you recommend?

I can move the couch easily, if needed.  The front closet is not used much so we can put something in the corner(s).  Do the tri-traps/soffit need to completely flush with the wall?  Can there be space behind them?  The reason I ask is I have mopboards that poke out a couple of inches. 

In Summary:

Front of HT

Soffit or Tritrap in each corner.
Which panels should I use on either side of the window and how many?

Rear of HT

3 Monster panels with scatter plates.
Should I put a tri/soffit trap in the corner opposite the door? 

Side Walls

242 or 244 panels or diffusion.  Need number of panels and which one to go with?

Ceiling

Are you suggesting the "grid diffusor" model?  They are fairly expensive at $200 for 4 panels.  How many panels would be needed to effectively control slap and echo?
I can hang a panel on either side of the fan in addition to the diffusors.  Would this be a good use of money and which panel(s) would you suggest? 

Other

Would a Tritrap behind the couch (on the floor) absorp any bass or would my money be better spent elsewhere?

Thanks for your help!  I'm very excited to get this project going.

-Brian

[bpape]

I prefer diffusion if you can.  The QRD or Q7D will be appropriate on the reflection zones on the side walls. Probably 2 per side in a mirror imaged pair.  For the budget, probably QRD's.

I would not worry about the rear single corner or behind the couch on the floor.

The Grid Fusors is what I was looking at for high on the walls (not on the ceiling).  At $50 each, they're actually very cost effective.  You can start with 1 box of 4 for now and add more later as budget allows.

Bryan

[Bghead8che]

OK, if I understand correctly here is where we are at:

Front of HT

Soffit or Tritrap in each corner.

Rear of HT

3 Monster panels with scatter plates.

Side Walls

4 QRDs or Q7Ds (two on each wall at reflection points)

Ceiling

Grid Diffusors (high on wall)

--------------------------------------------------

Bryan,

Please look at the above to see if I made any mistakes.

We are almost there but I have a few questions:

1.  Which panel and quantity would you recommend on the front wall (to the sides of Window behind the TV).  Currently this area is empty.
2.  I'm concerned about using the QRDs on the side walls instead of the 242s or 244s mainly because of my sensitivity to excessive brightness.  Especially considering I am using diffusors on the top walls as well. Would you mind briefly explaining the pros/cons of using diffusion vs absorption on the refelction point?  Off the three you choose diffusion so I am curious.
3.  Since you are suggesting diffusors on the high walls would you suggest panels before and after the ceiling fan?  Maybe hanging 242s? 

I REALLY appreicate your time and help thus far!

-Brian

[bpape]

Yes - that looks correct.  Sorry for not seeing this sooner.  Just been buried this year.

1.  242 panels would be appropriate on the front wall.

2.  Absorption can certainly be used on the side walls if you prefer.  You can try the 242's from the front wall there and see if you like the result before doing the diffusion in that location.

3.  I wouldn't worry about the ceiling too terribly much in order of priority. The diffusion high on the side walls is to address slap and flutter echo primarily.

Bryan

[bernardo]

My apologies - I don't mean to throw this topic off course but I have a general question about Bryan's comment about using diffusers for treating room echo. Do you normally recommend diffusers to combat fairly severe slap echo? I have found it difficult to find a clear cut answer concering treating slap echo - diffusion or absorption. Thanks for any info you can offer.

[Alex Reynolds]

My apologies - I don't mean to throw this topic off course but I have a general question about Bryan's comment about using diffusers for treating room echo. Do you normally recommend diffusers to combat fairly severe slap echo? I have found it difficult to find a clear cut answer concering treating slap echo - diffusion or absorption. Thanks for any info you can offer.

Hey Bernardo,

Flutter echo (or slap echo) happens between two parallel hard boundaries. So, in a typical rectangle room, flutter echo happens between all three boundaries. Introducing ANYTHING in the way will, for the most part, combat flutter echo - even a plant (but sometimes "anything" doesn't absorb / scatter / diffuse to as low of a frequency that we need). This means that in a typical carpeted room, we don't really have flutter echo between the ceiling and the floor as carpet isn't a "hard boundary", but you will have flutter on the front and back walls, and the left and right walls. Absorption works for taming flutter echo, and if you get a thick enough absorber, you can not only combat flutter echo - but also any strong reflections, modal standing waves, and other excess bass decays (like SBIR, etc). However - in some cases, you might have flutter echo but don't want absorption. For example, if you enjoy a really "live" room sound, you might not want to use absorption. Or, if you've already used a good amount of open absorption and you need to keep the rest of the ambiance in tact, you might want to not use absorption. In this case, diffusors are sort of a two-way win. First, diffusors will cut down flutter echo. Not 100% as much as absorption, but quite close (some waves can still bounce off if they come exactly perpendicular to a well, but this is the small exception). Second, instead of just ridding the flutter echo, we can use that energy to get diffused returns back at the listening position, which are pleasant and help enhance the sound stage. Diffuse returns along with treated first reflections enhance the sound stage by reducing localization of reflections & general room reverb, while keeping the stereo information played by your speakers uninterrupted.

Hope that was a thorough enough explanation!

Thanks,
Alexander

[bernardo]

Alex-
Thanks for the explanation. I have another question concerning slap echo treatment. I have procrastinated trying to treat it mainly due to the confusion I have about how to treat it and that it’s not possible to try room acoustic products without buying them. Also I have a hard time visualizing an arrangement with panels or diffusers which would look decent due to having a cathedral ceiling.

I think based on the current results from my system I prefer a live sounding room. I don’t have an over abundance of room treatment – just corner traps and one 6"x48" absorber at the wall/ceiling behind the speakers. I listen near field and have my speakers well into the room – 9 feet from the wall behind them.

The question I have is I have heard it said that if you cannot hear the slap echo from your listening position, it probably is not worthwhile to treat for it. It is very apparent when standing close to the ends of the room (15 feet wide x 24 feet long) and clapping. It sounds like a bullet ricocheting. But when seated at the listening position while clapping it is not audible.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.  

[Alex Reynolds]

If it is annoying or obnoxious, treatment would be suggested. But if your concern is only sounding good at the listening position, money could be better spent on other problems that are audible at the listening position IMO.

Diffusion would be the way to go if you didn't want to overdeaden the space. You could also go with acoustic panels that have something like our Scatter Plate built in - these provide scattering to the high frequencies, eliminating flutter echo, while still providing a good balance of absorption.

[bernardo]

Alex
I have discovered that my slap echo is audible from my listening position if I clap loud enough. I am contemplating trying an experiment to see if treatment would be worthwhile. I am leery of using a lot of absorption but using diffusion will be an expensive experiment considering how much bare wall I have in my room. I was thinking to use an inexpensive product like ATS Acoustics 24x24x2 foam panels just to find out if there is a benefit and to see if absorption is to my liking. I have considered your 242 acoustic panels but I don't want to commit that much money initially due to the amount of coverage I may need; also if the absorption is not to my liking there would then be the option to try something like your Gridfusor. My walls needing treatment are 24 feet long x 9 feet high at each end sloping up to 14 feet in the middle. The only recommendation I have seen is 15-30 percent of the wall area for taming slap echo. Is this what you would recommend for area of coverage? It has been suggested to me to try using blankets or something of that nature but I would prefer something with a more controllable shape and fairly easy to attach to the walls. Let me know if you think my idea has merit or if I would be wasting my time and effort. The foam panels are pretty inexpensive so I would be willing to risk the cost associated with them even if I end up pitching them in the end.

[bpape]

You don't need to cover all of the wall surface. Just a reasonable amount space out high around the perimeter can do wonders.

Bryan