AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Cheap and Cheerful HiFi => Topic started by: wushuliu on 2 May 2018, 09:23 pm
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The Topping D50 is a desktop DAC sporting two of the newest Sabre chips that are a scaled down version of the popular PRO. This DAC has gotten a lot of coverage, including some basic measurements over at audiosciencereview. The dac uses the XMOS XU208 USB receiver and therefore can output just about anything including DSD512. Also comes with seven filter options. Both Optical and Coaxial SPDIF inputs as well.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=179599)
https://goo.gl/yfGYCQ
I'll keep my thoughts brief as there really isn't much to tell: it's an outstanding DAC. Period. The hefty brushed aluminum housing gives the dac audiophile-approved weight. The OLED display is slick and user-friendly. Having both coax AND optical is a rare treat these days in this price, and the ability to use an external power supply is a welcome bonus.
As for sound quality, take the underdog gem that is the SMSL idea/Dabaj DA3 and bump things up a couple notches and you have the D50. Overall presentation is very similar. Neutral/cool, emphasis on clarity, separation, low noise and microdetail. The D50 however takes the realism to a different level and micro-details, the very subtlest nuances of a track, are much more audible. If you were never a fan of the Sabre sound, though, this dac won't change your mind. If you were thinking about the Idea/Sabaj but didn't take it seriously, well now you have no excuse. This dac is *excellent*.
But it's not perfect. Granted, I only listened to it for a short time (I did not give it full 'burn-in'), but there *is* something of a peakiness in the mids that I found a little tiring after a while. Perhaps it's just a poor match with my headphones. The upper frequencies are extended but not any harsher then the Idea/Sabaj, but the upper mids seem a little hard. There are a lot of variables though - I didn't spend too much time with all the filters and I did find that using the coax vs. usb resulted in a smoother presentation. YMMV.
Will I keep it? Alas, no. Ultimately I do prefer the Hifime. I think it's a better sounding dac, despite it's modest appearance and fewer features. I think the Hifime team actually spent time optimizing the very complicated 9038 specifically for their design. The mids for the Hifime for instance, is unlike any other Sabre dac I've heard, perhaps because of the THD compensation option these newer chips have. It took Hifime about 6mos or more to finalize their dac. The Topping, I suspect based on how their quick product turnaround, didn't do much with the chip and focused on the surrounding components.
But for most folks let's face it, the quality aesthetics and the many features (DSD blah blah blah) are more important. If I didn't have the Hifime I would absolutely keep the D50. For $250 it is really hard to believe the combo of features and sound quality that is on offer when it comes to dacs these days.
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And with speakers? Only like a DAC.
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And with speakers? Only like a DAC.
Wha?
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I ordered one a week ago. Should be fun trying to mod it. I am thinking of changing to a transformer output rather than the stock OP Amps
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Wha?
Sorry, Maty. I couldn't resist.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6CKSW9I1cA
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Sorry, Maty. I couldn't resist.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6CKSW9I1cA
LOL :lol:
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I am sorry, very fast reading. At that time I should be already sleeping. :oops:
I am many things: European, Spanish and Catalan but from Tarragona. I lived in Barcelona (University) but I went back to my town after some years. Like every big city, there is too much noise, people and traffic. And now too much tourist, too much. The most interesting people I met there were not born in BCN!
Here, in few minutes I can be on the beach or in the countryside. People < 140,000. More livable, human.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarragona
[IMG] https://4.bp.blogspot.com/_yWFPecnPRmg/TLtw_RJLvMI/AAAAAAAAAHU/2KXPWafm6-A/s1600/Tarragona-ciudad-panoramica.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarraco
[IMG] http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/cultura/Tarragona-Tarraco.jpg
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Okay. Time for a hiatus. Things are getting too weird.
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Wushuliu,
Before you disappear on your hiatus, allow me to thank you for posting about all these inexpensive DACs. I’ve read along even though I didn’t post.
Regards,
Michael
PS Is it 武術六， 無數六，or something else entirely? I have wondered since the first time I noticed your alias. :)
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Review and Measurements of Topping D50 DAC
https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-topping-d50-dac.2403/
By the way, my choice to substitute my cheap tweaked ODAC is the more expensive RME ADI-2 DAC. But without a new amplifier...
Review and Measurements of RME ADI-2 DAC
https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-rme-adi-2-dac.2582/
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Have Topping been around for long? I hadn't heard of them until recently. Their engineering staff are definitely on the ball.
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Here, in few minutes I can be on the beach or in the countryside. People < 140,000. More livable, human.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarragona
[IMG] https://4.bp.blogspot.com/_yWFPecnPRmg/TLtw_RJLvMI/AAAAAAAAAHU/2KXPWafm6-A/s1600/Tarragona-ciudad-panoramica.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarraco
[IMG] http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/cultura/Tarragona-Tarraco.jpg
It looks like a beautiful place to live. I've been to Espana several times, and I am always eager to go back. My wife has an aunt that lives in Fuengirola, just down the coast from Malaga. We try to visit as often as we can. Perhaps on our next visit we can find the time to see your part of Spain.
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Fuengirola, Marbella... full of Brittains and Nordics.
After Rome, Tarragona is the second european city with the best Romans ruins. Now, with the good time, the invasion of Europeans begins. To understand us, the Spanish Mediterranean coast is like Florida. And the farther south, the more older European residents; living from the pension is easier in Spain -and the health system is much better than the British (a disaster at present); they take vacations and operate in Spain, they will regret leaving the EU.
Germans are in Mallorca, Tarragona, Gerona and... now in Polland (in the area that decades ago was German).
You know: marcha, fiesta.
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-and the health system is much better than the British (a disaster at present)
Source?
Don't believe all you read in the media. Yes there are issues, but every day peoples lives are improved/saved by our NHS. Long may it continue...
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Can we talk about Spain and healthcare in the Spain and healthcare thread?
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An occasional aside is always okay, but Murphy is correct, it is time to get back to the Topping DAC.
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Yeah but if the Topping hurts my ears should I go to England or Spain to find relief?
I know Cambridge makes some DAC's.
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Have Topping been around for long? I hadn't heard of them until recently. Their engineering staff are definitely on the ball.
They've been around for a little bit. They have a solid rep for budget gear. They started with budget Class D amps (Tripath, etc) but are starting to expand into digital audio.
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Wushuliu,
Before you disappear on your hiatus, allow me to thank you for posting about all these inexpensive DACs. I’ve read along even though I didn’t post.
Regards,
Michael
PS Is it 武術六， 無數六，or something else entirely? I have wondered since the first time I noticed your alias. :)
Hi Michael, you're welcome. As for my username, it is a reference to my love for martials arts films by Liu Chia Liang (Lau Kar Leung).
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Hi Michael, you're welcome. As for my username, it is a reference to my love for martials arts films by Liu Chia Liang (Lau Kar Leung).
Aha!
My mother-in-law has the same surname - 劉。
Good to know.
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I have both this DAC and the Topping DX7s DAC / Headphone amp combo. Both of them are built like tanks and sound insanely good for their price. (I picked them both up on AliExpress using 15% off coupons.) The DAC is connected to my PC and Rokit 6 G3 powered monitors while the DX7s replaced the PS Audio Digital Link III and GCHA in my main stereo. I could not be happier with them.
Martin
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I missed the Massdrop for the Topping D50 at $199. Anyone here interested in selling their D50 for $210 shipped to 27410 please PM me.
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Sorry, Maty. I couldn't resist.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6CKSW9I1cA
Thanks for this! Love John Cleese and Fawlty Towers! Another favorite of mine is another BBC comedy, “Mind Your Language.”
Best,
Anand.
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Wushuliu,
Before you disappear on your hiatus, allow me to thank you for posting about all these inexpensive DACs. I’ve read along even though I didn’t post.
Regards,
Michael
...
+1!
Best,
Anand.
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+1!
Best,
Anand.
+2!
Thx, John
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I purchased wushuliu's D50, so I'm no longer looking for one. Should have it next week. Also interested in the Hifime UDA38PRO if anyone has one of those they want to sell.
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whats the best ESS cheap dac with volume control? Is the ESS volume control lossy or is it good enough?
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+1!
Best,
Anand.
Thanks guys.
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whats the best ESS cheap dac with volume control? Is the ESS volume control lossy or is it good enough?
ESS volume control is handled digitally.
http://www.esstech.com/files/3014/4095/4308/digital-vs-analog-volume-control.pdf (http://www.esstech.com/files/3014/4095/4308/digital-vs-analog-volume-control.pdf)
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How good or bad is this in reality? At volume control do you hear distortion? Some DACs have an analog volume control but those tend to be expensive. Others do DSP processing prior to the dac stage.
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How good or bad is this in reality? At volume control do you hear distortion? Some DACs have an analog volume control but those tend to be expensive. Others do DSP processing prior to the dac stage.
Not sure what you're asking. There is no distortion. The ESS report is accurate. You have to spend a *lot* more to improve on their volume control specs. Note - their volume control does not have anything to do with accommodating whatever is downstream i.e meeting impedance, current output requirements etc. for whatever is plugged into the dac. Which why there is usually an additional output stage provided by whoever makes the dac.
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New offering of the D50 at Massdrop
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New offering of the D50 at Massdrop
Good price (I paid full price for mine from Ebay). But 6 weeks til delivery. And looks like they've been having shipping delays.
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I also paid full price. The advertised delivery was listed as over a month but it got to me in about two and half weeks. Came from Germany.
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I also paid full price. The advertised delivery was listed as over a month but it got to me in about two and half weeks. Came from Germany.
I was referring to the Massdrop. Ebay delivery was about 2.5 weeks for me as well.
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Here is my take on the D50 at this point. It temporary replaced a Wyrd4Sound DAC 2 DSD SE. Connection to the dedicated computer is via Shunyata usb cable. Power was supplied by the provided USB cable. Sound was tipped up in frequency emphasis. It has a irritating emphasis in the upper vocal range. After a number of hours of play, I replaced the power supply with a regulated 5 volt DC, 5amp unit. That made very noticeable change for the better in the bass and dynamics overall. I planned on modifying it just for fun, but didn't realized how small it was. Op amps and other chips are all very small surface mounted components. All I have done inside is add ERS fabric on top of all the chips. That seemed to clear up the overall resolution a small amount. At this point, I would call it a very good traveling dac for the businessman on the road. Needless to say it didn't match the Wyrd dac. There is still the problem with the emphasis in the midrange IMO. It might be a more pleasing dac in a lesser resolving setup. YMMV
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Here is my take on the D50 at this point. It temporary replaced a Wyrd4Sound DAC 2 DSD SE. Connection to the dedicated computer is via Shunyata usb cable. Power was supplied by the provided USB cable. Sound was tipped up in frequency emphasis. It has a irritating emphasis in the upper vocal range. After a number of hours of play, I replaced the power supply with a regulated 5 volt DC, 5amp unit. That made very noticeable change for the better in the bass and dynamics overall. I planned on modifying it just for fun, but didn't realized how small it was. Op amps and other chips are all very small surface mounted components. All I have done inside is add ERS fabric on top of all the chips. That seemed to clear up the overall resolution a small amount. At this point, I would call it a very good traveling dac for the businessman on the road. Needless to say it didn't match the Wyrd dac. There is still the problem with the emphasis in the midrange IMO. It might be a more pleasing dac in a lesser resolving setup. YMMV
My experience was similar, but keep in mind the Sabre-based dacs do need a few days to open up from my experience. I usually find myself grumbling the first day or so. Also, I think the Coaxial input sounds better than the USB. As for modding, it does have one plus: The components are well labeled and organized. For instance all the important 3.3v regulators are off to one side and easy to pop up with a solder iron. No caps or other stuff in the way. Get some batteries or a LT3045 or whatever good low noise supply and just tap into those pads. No longer portable, but sound quality will skyrocket.
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Here is my take on the D50 at this point. It temporary replaced a Wyrd4Sound DAC 2 DSD SE. Connection to the dedicated computer is via Shunyata usb cable. Power was supplied by the provided USB cable. Sound was tipped up in frequency emphasis. It has a irritating emphasis in the upper vocal range. After a number of hours of play, I replaced the power supply with a regulated 5 volt DC, 5amp unit. That made very noticeable change for the better in the bass and dynamics overall. I planned on modifying it just for fun, but didn't realized how small it was. Op amps and other chips are all very small surface mounted components. All I have done inside is add ERS fabric on top of all the chips. That seemed to clear up the overall resolution a small amount. At this point, I would call it a very good traveling dac for the businessman on the road. Needless to say it didn't match the Wyrd dac. There is still the problem with the emphasis in the midrange IMO. It might be a more pleasing dac in a lesser resolving setup. YMMV
"Sound was tipped up in frequency emphasis. It has a irritating emphasis in the upper vocal range."
The Audio Technica ADX5000 headphones that I have is lacking just a bit in precisely this area. I feel that these headphones are noticeably veiled in the low treble region. So, if this dac does indeed sound to me the way it sounds to you in this frequency range, then I would consider the D50's presentation as an answer to get the sound presentation of the ADX5000 more to my liking.
So, what may be interpreted as a negative for you may be interpreted as a positive to someone else (depending on their preferred sound signature in gear, and the sound signature of their other components in their audio chain).
Appreciate everyone here for sharing their impressions on the D50.
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Wushuliu, which HiFiMe DAC do you have? The UDA38 Pro?
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Wushuliu, which HiFiMe DAC do you have? The UDA38 Pro?
Yep.
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anyone know what size connector the power connection is on the D50 and whether its positive polarity or not?
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anyone know what size connector the power connection is on the D50 and whether its positive polarity or not?
The power connector is 5.5mm/2.1mm. Polarity is positive.
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I receive this message from the D50 when I send to the coax input coax a 192/24 file: "coax input unlock" and no music comes out, any help?
Many Thanks!
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I receive this message from the D50 when I send to the coax input coax a 192/24 file: "coax input unlock" and no music comes out, any help?
Many Thanks!
Forgive if this is a "duh" response, but have you downloaded the drivers for the D50? It's not "plug n play" out of the box. You'll need to install the drivers, using the supplied USB cable connected to your computer.
If you've downloaded the drivers, then a simple, quick push of the power button (the larger button on the left of the unit) should unlock it.
While I'm at it, further advice would be for you to get an external power supply (as I feel it improves the overall performance of this dac). It's a mystery to me why Topping doesn't include an external power supply when noticeable improvements can be heard when ditching the USB cable in favor of a 5V wall wart. (Again, this is my subjective impression. YMMV). But, I would think most anyone here on this forum would be able to hear the difference in a "before and after" comparison.
Note: I'm using the D50 as an external dac connected via coax to a Rotel RCD-1570 cdp (which employs a Wolfson WM 8740 dac). I listen mainly with headphones (AKG K701 and 702, beyer T-90, Audio Technica ADX 5000). Amp is a vintage receiver. A 70's era Sony STR 6055.
Long story short: The D50 in my system definitely makes an improvement, overall. (Though admittedly, my rig isn't the last word in resolution, especially compared to a lot of people here on this forum).
Apologize for the wordy response, but I wanted to supply some context (to see if anything that I'm relating could be applied to your use case). So many times on audio forums when people give advice, much needed context is often missing in my opinion.
Anyway, Good luck!
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Many Thanks, but I cannot locate drivers for my iMac, I only see drivers for Windows.
Are IOS drivers available somewhere for the Topping?
Thanks again!
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Many Thanks, but I cannot locate drivers for my iMac, I only see drivers for Windows.
Are IOS drivers available somewhere for the Topping?
Thanks again!
Sorry I won't be able to give you very specific advice here, rufusen. (If I could, I would). But, here's what I got: I'm not using computer audio with the D50. I'm using the D50 as an external dac for a CD player.
But, I googled "drivers for Topping D50 for MAC" and there's a discussion on "audiokarma.org" where someone says that no drivers are needed for the D50 if you're using a MAC-based system. Honestly, I don't know about this, as my system is Windows-based, but I'm not using my PC as a music source, so I don't know).
I don't own a MAC. My Operating system on my laptop (my only computer) is Windows.
There's quite a bit of discussion on the D50 on the "audiosciencereview" site.
There's also discussion threads on the "massdrop" site (where a lot of people bought the D50). This is probably the site that I'd go to first, as you're likely to get practical information first, as the "audiosciencereview" site is more concerned with how the D50 performs in technical measurements. In order to hope to get the type of specific info that you're looking for, you'll have to weed-through a lot of info.
I didn't check customer reviews on the D50 on "amazon.com" There may be something there that applies to your specific use-case.
That's all I got, man. If both of us were using the D50 in exactly the same way, and with the same equipment, then I could be of more help. You'll get things sorted. It just might take some research and some digging.
The one nugget of info I came across when I was reading on "audiosciencereview" had someone talking about how re-starting your system once you have the D50 connected might re-set everything and get the D50 functioning properly. But he was talking about how he was using a Topping headphone amp along with the D50, so...
It's difficult to help someone else out when your use-case doesn't match theirs, but there ya go, man. And after all this, there's the option of contacting customer support at Topping.
Wishing you good luck with it.
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I really appreciate your help, and I've checked all the discussions you've linked, however I've not been able to solve my problem, so today, I decided to return the Topping.
I think it is a good DAC and very reasonably priced. I went back to my old North Star DAC and I'm now using a Kingrex interface to send a i2s signal to it and I'm very happy with them tonight ;-)
All Best to you!
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I really appreciate your help, and I've checked all the discussions you've linked, however I've not been able to solve my problem, so today, I decided to return the Topping.
I think it is a good DAC and very reasonably priced. I went back to my old North Star DAC and I'm now using a Kingrex interface to send a i2s signal to it and I'm very happy with them tonight ;-)
All Best to you!
Well, you can always keep the Topping in the back of your mind and casually research discussions on it from time-to-time. You may re-visit it. Who knows? I'm sure the exact answer you were looking for was/is out there.
The trick was finding it.
"head-fi.org" is another source of information for people who use a Mac as a music source. It's a headphones-based site, but still worth checking out to see any info that might apply to you in the future as there are plenty of headphone listeners using a MacBook Pro.
Wish I could've been more help in this case. Sorry I led you down blind alleys, but I related everything that I could possiblty think of that might help.
Best to you, too.
Terry
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I use my D50 as a DAC+preamp for the NuForce Optima STA-200, and Audience The One speakers in a really small bedroom. Music from PC, occasional gaming and movies on PS4. It's a fantastic DAC.
Been using the D50 for the past few months and experimented with a few things. Here's what I found:
• USB filter makes a difference. Quite significant improvement with Uptone ISO Regen (powered by iFi iPower 9V). Instruments & vocal plasement became more pin point, depth of stage is easier to discern, sounded less "FM-radio". But it losses a bit of "warmth" that was caused by distortion/veil which a friend preferred despite losing some resolution and clarity. To me, that warmth sounded like cheap radio (low res, high noise, high distortion, veiled).
BUT there's an issue: with the ISO Regen, D50 will sometimes stop outputting any signal suddenly. It just goes quiet. Sometimes, it can play for hours without any issue, and other times it can happens once every few minutes. Turning the DAC off & on again fixes it, but it's annoying. Not sure if it's Foobar, PC, ISO Regen, or D50 is the problem.
• Since all DACs & digital equipments (the chips and clocks) are sensitive to power supply, so I never bothered with common USB chargers. But then I found that STA-200 has a 5V output. I got curious and compared this output with iFi iPower 5V (yes, I have 2x iPowers: 9V & 5V). Opening up the STA-200 shows that its 5V output is a simple linear power supply, and likely of moderate quality.
At first, I wasn't sure I heard a difference. After many rounds of back and forth, iFi iPower is just a wee bit cleaner compared to STA200’s 5V output. This is likely to be much much better than common 5V USB chargers.
*Side track1 : of the many USB chargers, Apple's iPhone chargers do not leak noise into the main AC (tested with AudioPrism Noise Sniffer by a friend), use this if you don’t want to buy iPower or other power filters. iPower likely generates noise back into the AC mains, which may explain why the AC filter works (below).
*Side track 2: STA-200 shares the same circuitry as Job 225 and Goldmund Metis, except it has lesser watts, I opened it up and saw the PCB printed with the words “JOB”. A Taiwanese magazine interview with the owner of Optoma mentioned that he is friends with Goldmund founder, so Goldmund gladly provided this circuit to Optoma when Optoma acquired NuForce and wanted to launch a new amp quickly. It’s a stupendous amp, and superb matching with D50 silver. STA-200 is $500 from Audio Advisor and Amazon—60% off from $1299. Bought it because reviews on this amp and Job 225 mentioned that it has good soundstage depth, which to me means that it has really good resolution & capability in order to pull off the “depth” trick. And I needed such amp to test my prototype cables.
• Recently, I bought a used power filter—DA&T AC Filter. DA&T is a mid/high end audio company from Taiwan, but their AC Filters are really affordable.
The STA-200 hated the filter as it caused an audible hum/buzz at the speakers, even though it sounded better with the filter. So I plugged the 2× iPowers (for ISO Regen & Topping D50) into the AC Filter isntead.
Jaw dropped… The improvement was very significant.
As much improvement as adding an ISO Regen, possibly more. The clarity in vocals is amazing, musical instruments have even better pin point location, less veil, better clarity, better depth location, better instrument separation. When I removed the AC filter, it now sounded like radio or elevator music.
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The above tweaks (or whatever you may call it) cost about 2× of D50, but it took it to another level. You could say I could’ve bought another DAC instead. But the power filter and USB filter will stay as the D50 is being upgraded in the future.
And the D50 is so amazing now, it sounds like a higher end DAC.
Cables used are almost all Audience cables: OHNO RCA & my DIY carbon-fibre prototype, OHNO speaker cables, Forte f3 powerChord. The system might seem expensive, but almost all gears were bought as 2nd-hand, or over many months from various deals/discounts. :lol:
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andrewinukm,
Can you bullet point the items you added to the D50?
What power supply did you settle on, or is it powered by the preamp? Is the Uptone ISO Regen a USB filter?
I am about to pull the trigger on a D50 and want to optimize it. I would love to stand on the shoulders of your experience!
Thanks
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Just my .02, if you want to avoid shelling out a bunch of money on USB purifiers and get better sound quality, avoid USB altogether and use the coaxial input with a USB spdif converter. I've chased the USB input dragon for years and keep coming back to coax input. It just sounds better.
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andrewinukm,
Can you bullet point the items you added to the D50?
What power supply did you settle on, or is it powered by the preamp? Is the Uptone ISO Regen a USB filter?
I am about to pull the trigger on a D50 and want to optimize it. I would love to stand on the shoulders of your experience!
Thanks
- iFi iPower (5V) for power.
- UpTone ISO Regen (powered by another iFi iPower 9V)
- DA&T AC Filter (to filter AC power of iFi & amp)
- Other "black magic" un-explainable tweaky stuff that no one will believe until they hear it for themselves :icon_twisted:
Also check out Head-fi's thread on D50. Acko did lots of crazy mods on his D50, it's now a frankenstein.
I'd go with Wushuliu's advice as well. Maybe get a Schiit Eitr + iFi iPower and be done.
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I just got the D50S and am powering it with a RavPower battery bank I got on Amazon for $20. The dac came with USB to 5v 2.1mm cables.
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Can someone please tell me how to disconnect the ribbon cable in the second video below? Thanks.
I thought I found a good video on it here (https://youtu.be/TX55TM2YyvI?t=191). But, turns out the pcb in the D50 is slightly different than the one in the D50s. Mainly, the lcd ribbon cable is connected to the pcb differently as shown here (https://youtu.be/VHwCyeWFPwk).
Trying to swap the opamp from lme49720 to muses02. According to Passion for Sound, an YT audio reviewer, the opamp is swappable without soldering.